The Town Hall Meeting

Clay,

I'll enlighten you a little bit. People are upset about the government creating their own insurance option when they do not have any experience in doing so. They will pay for some of the expenses of learning how to run an insurance company out of premiums, but they will also pay for it out of subsidies supplied by taxpayers. They also won't be paying any taxes like other insurance providers yet they have the stupid notion that somehow this is fair competition. There is no way the private sector can compete with a government plan when the government plan does not have the same set of rules in terms of their own costs. When the funds run dry, (and they will), the government will have to raise taxes even further to pay for their misguided attempts to help people. Otherwise, they will have to ration care (which they will).

One can not understate the fact that the government's has never run any substantive program that stays any where close to the budget promised by politicians. The DEMS talk today about how great it will be with more and more government and unfortunately, people are drinking the cool-aide because they think that the majority of the expense will be paid by someone else. The fact is that raising taxes on business and "rich" people just trickles down so everyone will pay more.

This is the same mentality that caused the crash in the first place. Yes, both dems and reps assisted over the last 30 years or so, but the bottom line is that the problems are caused by the citizens wanting something for nothing and politicians passing misguided legislation so they can get reelected.

A private sector solution is by far the only sane one and the government option should be dumped.

The fact that people express their dissatisfaction with the government plan does not make them "idiots". Not only is this part of the democratic process, but it is the right thing to do.

Clay could rerun the cartoon where purebred dogs are rated by intelligence. At the top are the Border Collies, while the least bright is an Afghan Hound with his nose glued to The Factor with Bill O'Reilly.

These Afghan FoxHounds that disrupt town hall forums by "spreading themselves out to appear greater in numbers" and "shouting, stomping their feet and causing a commotion to drown out the debate", are not interested in exchanging ideas and finding answers to questions.

All they want is to get their video played on Sean Hannity's show and be labeled by him as "A Great American" for preventing the truth about health care reform from reaching the ears of the truly concerned.

I see Fox News has even taken to helping viewers find Democratic only town halls so they don't accidentally embarass a good Republican while he's misleading his constituents.

It isn't totally clear who is behind this all-out effort to stop the progression of legislation that will assist more than the economically elite of this nation, but it's becoming abundantly clear that those on the right who are opposed to progression are getting mighty desperate.

They couldn't stop the Obama train. They lost more seats in the House and Senate. Despite a massive advertising campaign, filled with distortions and lies, they have been unable to sway public opinion like they have in the past.

The conservative talking heads have come up with this bright idea to disrupt town hall meetings with protests as a way to sway our elected officials. And we know where they got that idea, don't we? The Birther Gal in red. These conservative hosts have ripped a page right out of the book written by a kook.

I've heard several of these hosts condemn Al Sharpton more than a couple of times for allegedly inciting a riot some years ago where someone was killed. The town hall meeting in Tampa, Florida on Friday, erupted into an assault fest with several people arrested as a result of their disruptions. Several of the protesters claimed to have been "inspired" by Glenn Beck to show up in Tampa to protest. Others claimed to have received emails from the Hillsborough Republican Party that offered talking points to challenge supporters of health care reform.

The escalations that we are witnessing has me convinced that it's not any potential failure or deficit spending that have Republicans worried. Their gut fear is that the changes that the Democrats are pursuing will not only be successful, but that it will further erode the current support base of the Republicans, when more people wake up to the fact that they previously supported Republicans for all the wrong reasons.

I read on Friday that there are Democratic legislators who have decided to cancel town hall meetings due to threats of harm if they do not reverse their stances and withdraw their support for health care reform. Is this the "compassionate conservatism" that we have been hearing about for years?

In my book, it's thuggery at it's finest, and it will not do a thing to boost any favorable opinions of the Republican Party, but please...feel free to keep up the good work. I pray fervently that no one is seriously harmed, or worse, during these manufactured protests that are being organized around the country.

If so, who will wind up with the blood on their hands?

If anyone really thinks this is about health care reform, they need to refresh their history. There is an organized movement that has been in the works for some time to control the states and country inside,where possible, but outside the election processes if necessary, using the tried and proven tactics of diversion, propaganda, lies and fear. What you’re seeing now is something you can expect on many issues in the months to come. Silence of the majority is what they are counting on. Democrat or republican means nothing when there's only one group in control.

Dead on, non-partisan accurate, EaTn.

The majority is not staying silent any longer. Clay's cartoon supports the suppression of the people's voice.

Politicians don't like it when the citizens directly ask them tough questions; unlike Dear Leader, they have no teleprompter to help them out. So they cancel their town hall appearances. Good. They don't want to hear the people anyway.

I find this as the perfect example of "...art imitating life...."

America must be the only country on Earth where a small minority can dictate how the vast majority will live and react.

Let's see...Gays and Lesbians want acceptance and they get it. Murderers and such on "Death Row" scream "cruel and unusual punishment" and the one deterrent that really does work is abandoned, Conservatives equate current policies with Socialism, call it a "Tea Party" and believe it will help them regain the electorate's confidence next year, And, where any 'storefront church' can lay claim to being the only "...true path to Heaven..." while bilking helpless widows out of their savings and challenging the government to try to do anything about it without a fight (and sometimes quite literally).

Well, come to think of it, we may not be the only country on Earth where this might take place, but we are the only country big enough, strong enough and educated enough that it shouldn't happen here.

Thank you for your time and attention, Woody

the people have spoken

Anyone here a Veteran or on Medicare, Medicaid? If the answer is no, I take it you are happy with your health insurance, especially United Health Care. If the answer is yes, why don't you give up your government health care?

I take it everyone here is healthy and has no pre-existing conditions. Acne? High blood pressure? Arthritis? Everyone here is in tip top shape. If they do get sick and need hospitalization, they will be content when the insurance denies their claim. If they still need help and no payment arrives, bankruptcy and loss of home is alright, too. After all, UHC & BCBS have to make their numbers. Just two weeks ago, United Health Care reported an $853 million dollar profit in last quarter. Those are some numbers... how did they get such good numbers? Government health care doesn't have profit in the equation. Still believe everything the government does is terrible?

What we are seeing is not a rising up of any majority. We are seeing is the dissension by a diminishing minority.

The town hall meetings were scheduled to take the health care reform proposals to the people for open discussion. That is the hot button issue on the table at the moment.

But the "Tea Baggers," the Birthers, and those who are simply anti-Obama, are crashing these meetings to draw attention to themselves and their particular pet peeves.

Who knows? Maybe some of these people just want to be the next YouTube star.

You cannot eliminate partisan politics from the equation, when the fact is that if a Democrat proposes it, the Republicans will immediately oppose it. Prior to this last election, the country was just about evenly split in terms of who voted as Republicans and Democrats. That certainly was the case in 2000 and 2004.

This past election, many people left the Republican Party, and I am one of them, to vote for Democrats. The future will determine if this is temporary or a permanent shift. I see nothing promising coming from the Republican camp that would make me cast a vote for so much as one of them on a Federal level.

So what "majority is not staying silent any longer, as Rolando so ineptly states, and I'm totally at a loss to understand what is meant by EaTn's reference to some movement to control the states from the "inside."

These town hall meetings were scheduled to absolutely hear the voices of the people, but for easily explainable reasons, they are being crashed by what I can only describe as right wing kooks without a clue as to why they are even there. There is no way to deny the fact that they are being recruited, organized, and fed misinformation by the GOP.

Rolando, are you under some impression that a teleprompter has the answers to any questions that are ever fired to our President, be they simple or complex in nature? I watched his town hall meetings and the man did a fine job of answering tough questions, including those that were obviously the result of GOP efforts to misrepresent provisions contained within H.R. 3200.

You stated that "Clay's cartoon supports the suppression of the people's voice."

It does nothing of the sort. What it does is expose the fact that the kooks are crawling out from under their rocks and are attempting to disrupt these meetings, which were meant to provide a venue to discuss important issues on a rational level.

Talk about inept. Look in the mirror. Your leaving the Repub party was appropriate since you now seem to think it's the root of all evil. If these kooks are coming out from under a rock, they're being pushed out by the "9/11 truthers" and ACORN supporters. So crazy is OK if it's your crazies eh? The real truth is there are fringe elements on both sides and they are legitimately labeled as such. What is NOT legitimate is claiming crazy conspiracies because people disagree, and vocally, with a proposal that's doomed to failure.

To those political terrorists who continue to rant about birth certificates, socialism, and getting their country back.....know that you are the minority and that is why we have a new "DECIDER". Stomp and obstruct if you think it will help. "We the people" have had enough of trickle up.

Alprova excellent post this is not just dissent this is political terrorism and they will stop at nothing. They are ready for bloodshed to defend their party. I get a chuckle when the teleprompter discussion starts. Many of Bush's speeches used a special hearing device which did not seem to help his major problem with pronouncing. Maybe he was trying to hard to listen to the answer. He had no speaking ablity whatsoever and any question he did not want to answer he reminded the entire country he was the "Decider". Bush certainly was no road scholar and his speaking was equvilent to his C adverage. He earned the name Dumbya quite honestly.

Your incompetently composed and poorly delivered diatribe is plain BS in all particulars, alprova. The only bias you recognize is that coming from the GOP.

Indeed, thank God you left the GOP...one less RINO to sink later. Must say the DNC deserves you...along with A. Spector. /chuckle

Actually, Dear Leader answers no unsolicited or unscripted questions house; he hasn't in quite some time. His audiences are all pre-selected and pre-prompted. That is why you will never see him in such an open town hall venue. IOW, if it isn't answered on his teleprompter, it isn't recognized or acknowledged and doesn't exist. Unless you consider "Um...um...ah...I...uh...somebody fix the teleprompter...uh...er" to be an answer [and no doubt you do].

Now that Sweeney's union Thugs, samplegirl's New Black Panther "Enforcers" [or whoever] and ACORN's Finest are showing up ready for action, DL just might appear. He can always call on his "citizen army" to quell any "disturbance", Did you catch the Thug assaulting the outspokenly vocal old codger in his walker? More of that to come.

How many Republican legislatiors have held town meetings to present their proposal to the people?

Spare me... Once again, should we mention all of the Canadians that come to the U.S. for their health care?

Alprova is right, these yahoos who are disrupting town hall meetings aren't interested in free speech. In fact, their intent is to stifle it. They are not attending these meetings to be heard, they're there so others won't be.

There's a very frightening aspect to this phenomenon. Whipped into a frenzy by industry lobbyists and conservative muckrakers, these poor saps are misinformed to the point of irrationality, and motivated (or manipulated) to the brink of violence.

These lynch mobs may have been spawned from the opposition to health care reform, but what's being exposed at these town hall meetings is something much more sinister and disturbing. What you see spewing out of many of these protesters is a very thinly-veiled racism. As with the 'birther' movement, much of the health care protests seem to driven by the cultural and racial anxiety of a group that is still trying to process the reality that we now have a black man living in the White House.

Of course, the Republicans are more than willing to harness this anxiety for their own political gain, no matter how negative and detestable it may be.

When the invective of a debate is raised to such red-hot levels, zealots within a movement often resort to violence. Just as the demonization of Dr. Tiller undoubtedly lead to his murder in Wichita, these protesters could well be pushed over the brink by the incendiary rhetoric of the Rush Limbaughs of the world.

One thing's for sure- these protests are only helping the very forces they oppose. Americans do not like bullies, and the actions of these wingnuts will only serve to define the opposition to health care reform as one based on ignorance and deception, and one that's quite willing to force its agenda on others through the use of intimidation and threats.

maj writes, "Spare me... Once again, should we mention all of the Canadians that come to the U.S. for their health care?"

Give me numbers on that maj. That's an anecdotal argument with no basis in fact. The number of Canadians who come to the US for health care is statistically insignificant. The number of Americans who go to Canada for cheap drugs, however, is quite impressive.

In a zoo I've watched a peacock spread its feathers to try to look far more manly that it really is.

There is a "silent majority" right now who is scared where the insurance industry is taking us, is smart enough to know that there is no honest-to-God "socialized medicine" option in this bill, and knows the big insurers have Congress by the short hairs and are pretty sick of that too.

The point is to get sick people to doctors. Everything else is peacock feathers.

Rolando writes, "Your incompetently composed and poorly delivered diatribe is plain BS in all particulars, alprova."

Nice, Rolando. You've adopted the new Republican debate technique perfectly. You start your argument with personal attack, and follow that with unsubstantiated rumor. Where have you heard, or better yet, where can you PROVE that every question that President Obama answers is scripted.

You've been asked to present proof of this claim before, but you could produce proof. Not one single link. Put up, or stop leveling the same spurious charges.

To all those in the camp of Samplegirl's "Decider", whatever that means, could you point out the provision in the U.S. Constitution which gives the Congress the power to run any healthcare agency? It seems to have been left out of my copy.

"Political Terrorism". Wow, the lefties have really gone around the bend now. When did speaking out for one's beliefs become "Political Terrorism"? Bear in mind that what is good for the goose(Dems) is good for the Gander"(Repubs), and the current uproar is no different than what has been going on about all kinds of issues since the beginning of democratic governance a few thousand years ago. That is one of the central ideas behind our form of government, the people can, and will voice their opinion. If you do not like it, then the problem lies with you.

The Democrats would like us all to believe this issue is about providing healthcare to those who cannot afford it. This is blatant misdirection, and many, who are prone to fall for Utopian fantasies, or just plain trusting of leftist demagogues are buying in. This is a blatant power grab for a huge piece of control over the lives of every citizen, nothing more nothing less, and dissent will not be tolerated.

The Leftists should bear in mind that it is those from their ranks who are engaging in violence at these meetings. They should also think really hard about the attempt to marginalize and/or silence the critics. How about the White House asking citizens to report on other citizens for speaking out in opposition. What does this say about your party?

The current administration is headed full speed toward not just socialism, but to one of the inevitable outcomes which is fascism. If you don't see it, it is not because those of us who do are delusional. It is because you are blinded by ideology, and ignorant of history.

"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear." ––Harry S Truman

Soapbox, ballotbox, ammobox. We're moving right on down the line.

Make sure that if you support the current statist direction of our government you put some stickers on your car, and wear T-shirts proclaiming such. That'll help, thanks.

OllieH,

Why are you so concerned about race? Could you be projecting your own fears on others? Their is no racist angle to this issue in the least. Only in your mind.

Just shows the shallowness of the arguments coming from the left. Nothing to say? Scream racism. It used to work. To bad it is loosing it's bite after so much crying wolf.

sandyonthehill...

I am a Vet, on Medicare, and TriCare. The first and the last were bought with 25 years of my life and service connected disabilities. That coverage is and was fully paid...exactly why should I give up something I directly pay for? Oh yes...I also have private insurance.

Why do I not give up Medicare A and B at $1,000/mo or so [if memory serves]? I didn't want it in the first place...I could refuse Part B, yes, but not A. We have no choice with A, you see -- the gov't forces it on us at age 65 [at no cost...yeah, right]. If I refuse Part B coverage [at an exorbitant cost], I would automatically lose my TriCare coverage [which would cost me another $500/month, give or take.

To recap -- my VA coverage was bought and paid for with my health. Same thing with TriCare except I am still paying for it. My private insurance covers the rest -- for a stiff monthly payment. TriCare has no "pre-existing condition" provisions either way.

It's really adorable to see the GOP standing up for free speech after eight years of pre-screened, invitation only events for Mr. Bush. Bushies escorted people from meetings just for wearing t-shirts they disagreed with.

We do need free speech.

We also need civil discourse. Nobody listens much to somebody who shouts all the time.

OllieH--

alprove said "...as Rolando so ineptly states..."

He started it, OllieH, as do all good former RINOs... Missed that part, did you? /chuckle

Lets be clear about why Medicare (which I also have) requires
Part A for everyone over age 65.

It is (in part) a direct subsidy for the insurance industry. The insurance industry doesn't want to pay for hospitalizations for the elderly. Medicare is always the "first payer" for any hospitalization - the hospital must bill Medicare before they can bill your insurance for the balance.

If you have private insurance, you are already getting a government subsidy - through Medicare who is paying the bills for folks the insurance industry won't cover at all without government help.

If you were poor and on Medicaid, the insurance industry would pay first and the government last (an incentive for people to buy more insurance). If you are on Medicare (either disabled or elderly), then the government pays first and the insurer last - a direct subsidy to the insurer.

OllieH --

The idea that since one cannot produce instant proof that a gay-gene does NOT exist is accepted by the left as proof that such a gene DOES exist. False logic [or whatever], of course.

Same holds true for the teleprompter...except for those embarrassing occasions when Dear Leader's teleprompter broke, it wasn't there, or it lost his [DL's] place. At which time DL became incoherent. 2+2=4. /Loud Laugh

I don't think I would be using the words "village idiot" if I were you!

OllieH, I do not have numbers, as I'm sure you know, which is why you asked. I think you know good and well that it happens, though. My point is that Canada's system is NOT something we should want for our country. Here are some quite relevant articles. Just a sampling of the first I came to from a quick search, so please don't overanalyze the sources. I'm sure you're perfectly capable of your own research.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649

http://townhall.com/columnists/JillianBandes/2009/06/03/canadian_healthcare_coming_to_america

http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html

Clay Bennett is not "suppressing" a voice in the debate. He's inspiring open discussion and providing a forum to do so.

Those operatives who disrupt the town hall meetings want to stifle the debate and further the misconceptions they initiated. The internet equal would be a "denial of service attack" on this site to shut it down and prevent us from discussing the issue.

True, we don't want the Canadian system for this country.

Which is why it isn't even in the bill.

Let me repeat: It is not even in the bill.

This is called a "red herring" - phrase that comes from an old story about a way to try to lead dogs off the trail while training them.

If you were training a dog to follow a rabbit, you would have someone drag an old, dead fish across the trail from time to time, to see if the dog would go off the trail.

Everytime someone says "Canadian System", "Socialized Medicine", or "Communist" - have a beer!

Maj-

A 2002 study attempted to determine how many Canadians actually visit the U.S. to receive elective procedures.

The study tried to confirm how many Canadians went to the US seeking advanced treatments (CT scans, MRIs, etc.). The study revealed that about 640 Canadians sought treatment, along with 270 for procedures like cataract surgery. A total of 910 Canadians were treated compared to over 400,000 receiving the same procedures in the Quebec province of Canada alone (during the same period of time).

The Canadian National Population Health Survey looked at a similar question a few years earlier:

Only 90 of 18,000 respondents to a 1996 Canadian survey indicated that they had received health care in the United States during the previous year. Of those 90, only 20 had indicated that they had gone to the United States expressly for the purpose of getting that care.

So, one-half-of-one percent of Canadians responding to the survey received health care in the US, but the number of Canadians who expressly went to the US for health care was a miniscule one-tenth-of-one percent.

Now for some context. A 2003 Survey of Americans asked "Have you ever bought prescription drugs from Canada or other countries outside the United States in order to pay a lower price?" Of those who responded to the study, 8% answered yes.

So, roughly one in ten Americans expressly takes advantage of the health care system of Canada (or some other foreign country), while 1 in 1000 Canadians expressly seeks out our system.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say. So, either the Canadian pudding is really yummy, or ours has curdled.

miraweb wrote: "True, we don't want the Canadian system for this country."

Speak for yourself, miraweb. I, for one, would LOVE a single-payer system like that in Canada.

"He's inspiring open discussion and providing a forum to do so."

Inspiring open discussion only if you support Dear Leader's hair brained ideas on socialized medicine ala Great Britain, et al.

Open discussion in a town hall setting of alternate, non-socialized solutions are not acceptable to the Left as demonstrated by force of arms.

This no-opposing-discussion-allowed society is what Clay supports here -- by labeling all who oppose socialized medicine or socialized whatever as "village idiots". Sounds like White House TV, to me...someone is drinking the kool-aid.

Aside --

For those who object to my criticizing these 'toons and suggest I go elsewhere, I answer thus; this forum is, in its own way, a microcosm of the national town halls taking place. Chastising those who present opposing viewpoints and/or ridiculing their comments is exactly what Clay and the various arms of the DNC are doing.

Wow SCOTTY, I think you kind of stepped over a line there when you said:

"Soapbox, ballotbox, ammobox. We're moving right on down the line.

Make sure that if you support the current statist direction of our government you put some stickers on your car, and wear T-shirts proclaiming such. That'll help, thanks."

Unless I misunderstand the inference, that kind of talk is more suited to StormFront or Free Republic. You usually present an opposing but intelligent and non threatening argument to the issues.

No proof again, rolando? I didn't think so.

Until you can present anything, or anyone who can show any proof of your claim, please don't keep presenting it as though it's a real story.

Rolondo, How much does it hurt to be ignorant? I guess it hurts pretty bad..to continue to defend the party of losers. You are the epitome of the typical racist rightwing pig. Then you wonder how your party became the shrinking minority that it is today. Your unjust claims about my affiliation to the ie; black panthers or acorn only further your self serving, partisian attack dog mentality that drive people away like Alprova. You know nothing about me...or my affiliations so I will fill you in gladly!!! I'm white I'm Liberal and I still have healthcare and don't seem to think the world will end if others have it too! I'm proud to have a intelligent black man serve my country that recognizes the middleclass is in peril than a phony farm & ranch team that did nothing more than bankrupt this country for eight long years full of deception and based soley on "FEAR". I'm glad Alprova left she sounds like a person that is more concerned for her country than to wish failure on it just because it's not being run by a Republican. Bush drove the mentality down in this country. Welcome Alprova to the party of thinkers and not just self serving unamerican hypocrites. So on that note...if it makes your ego soar Rolondo to keep putting others down who don't think like you...after 8yrs of watching Republicans tear this country down I'm entitled to tell you to kiss my liberal...A double ss!!!! Wait your turn if you ever get one again.

Rolando writes: "Open discussion in a town hall setting of alternate, non-socialized solutions are not acceptable to the Left"

We're not talking about people putting forth non-socialized solutions, here. We're talking about bullies who shout down others, intimidate elected officials with mock tombstones and hanging effigies, and generally try to disrupt the debate.

These aren't people seeking a forum, these are folks looking for a fight.

Let me clarify on what I said about us not wanting a Canadian system.

What most Americans want is top quality health care, short waiting times, coverage whether your are young, old, sick or well, and the ability to focus on dealing with an illness, rather than dealing with financial crisis when a major health issue arises.

Single payer can get us there. There are other options that can get us there. That is the American system we all want.

What won't get us there is the current system. The road we are on has been getting more rutted and the rocks are getting bigger.

Today's debate is whether we keep driving or if it is time to turn the car around. The oilpan has a leak and the shocks are looking a bit dodgy - so, do we keep on driving?

Unfortunately, the debate we have over and over again is not about how we can bring down the cost and make good diagnostic tools, like MRIs, more available or how quickly we can make new cancer treatments available to everybody.

We keep having this silly debate about whether we are turning into Canada or Russia, instead of moving forward on getting the health care system we really want.

Nice rant there samplegirl. You should be well aware of how much ignorant hurts. It's at least as painful as your drone like adherence to the notion that Bush singlehandedly drove the country to ruin. A path which Obama is cheerfully driving right down using "FEAR" as the vehicle. Bush certainly teed the ball up for Obama and his drive for total control. As his buddy Rahm put it - don't let a crisis go to waste. By the way, your beloved intelligent "black" president is equally white - guess that's the stupid half eh? You are the lib equivalent of the rightwing loon. You and the rest of your brainwashed ilk can kiss my conservative... There are many roads to providing adequate healthcare. Obama's road is a deadend. Have a nice day

SCOTTYM writes: "Why are you so concerned about race? Could you be projecting your own fears on others? Their is no racist angle to this issue in the least. Only in your mind."

I wish it was only in my mind, SCOTTY. But when you see the citizenship of the president being questioned without cause, you have to wonder why. What's different about this president? When I see folks at these town hall meetings ringing their hands and on the verge of tears because they "want their country back", it makes my ask from whom they want it back.

When you hear a little old lady (who's probably covered by Medicare) complaining about socialized medicine, it's either means that she has absolutely no idea what she's talking about, or her complaint isn't about opposing a health care plan at all.

No, it's more about opposing the man who proposed the plan.

The policies that President Obama has promoted are not so radically different than ones we've undertaken in the past. The course he has charted for this country is not so extreme or contrary to any American ideals. Why then are these people so upset? Why do they feel so threatened? Why do they see the America of today so radically differently than the America of six months ago?

You can deny the racial overtones of these tea-bagging, birth certificate doubting, give-me-back-my-country shouting yahoos if you want to, SCOTTY, but don't put this off as something that's only in MY mind. I assure you that the tone of these gatherings is not lost on the folks who used to live in fear of just these kind of lynch mobs.

White fear. I guess it's about the only thing the Republicans have left to peddle. Let's have a town hall meeting so they can fill us in on that plan.

miraweb- Thanks for the clarification.

I was not attacking your earlier post (which made fine points), I just hate to see the vilification of the Canadian systes. I'd be happy with the French system too. It's usually considered the best in the world, and is a hybrid of public and private coverage.

Anything would be better than what we have now.

Lastly, why are these anti-government option folks wanting to take away our choice. It seems to me, the more plans the merrier.

Your killing me over here Sailorman but your ilk is MINORITY!!!!!!!

Disruptions of town-hall meetings is organized by a combination of special interests and anti-govt with a few who are naive enough to believe the propaganda. While they may serve their purpose of shouting-down people who really want to make positive inputs, they also are revealing their true purpose which has nothing to do with health care but all about controlling with intimidation.

Ollie, The republicans are still in denial and they think that everyone thinks just like Glen Beck. We will see and my guess is the Republicans will draw blood. It's not the race thing that bothers them them most it's plain and simple........THE DEMOCRATS ARE IN CHARGE!!!! They will use the race thing to get riot going. Limbaugh with his little ditty......puff the magic negro not long ago trying to stir up trouble.

Sailorman, the "9/11 Truthers" as far as I know are doing their own thing and are not showing up at town hall meetings to voice their theories, so let's at least compare apples to apples for a change. And Sir, I'm not espousing any conspiracy theories. Deny it if you must, but the fact of the matter is that people are indeed showing up at those meetings at the behest of the Republican Party and conservative talk show hosts. That has been widely reported in the press.

Rolando, the simple fact is that approximately 75% of Americans want some form of health care reform, but about half would be interested in seeing a universal option offered. Now I challenge you to refute those figures with any credible proof, and please don't quote the Quinnipiac poll or anything that Fox News has touched, because no one even heard of the Quinnipiac poll until this week. The right is REALLY starting to grasp straws.

When you stated that the "majority are no longer being silent," given the fact that these party crashers are there for the sole purpose disrupting meaningful dialogue and to intimidate others, and that they are absolutely a minority of people there, then your statement is quite inept. I don't care if you attack me, because I deal in facts and will justify anything I type. And if I am wrong, I'll admit it in a heartbeat.

Back to Sailorman: Bush didn't singlehandedly ruin this country, but he did sign each of the pieces of legislation that led us down that path, therefore it is laid at his feet. The man was a warmonger, a total prostitute for the financial sector, and for Corporate America. How he sleeps at night is beyond all comprehension.

Obama walked in to a complete mess and the man is being blamed for seven months of misery that this country is experiencing at the moment, and that's a-okay with him. He said so the other day. I will bet my left arm that when he leaves office in 2016, this country will be in the finest shape that it will have been since Clinton left office.

Mind you, I have no use for Al Gore and I voted against him, and still would, but Bush was a joke and he will remain a joke for all time.

Rolando, nothing you posted after the above deserves a significant response. Your a blathering hypocrite from the word "go, " and I proved it last week.

You don't have a clue why you are a Republican, which is more typical than one might think.

I would like to add that everyone did a fine job of refuting some of the garbage that has been introduced today. It's very easy to see who is on their toes and who is merely spewing unsubstatiated rhetoric.

Congratulations Clay,

You really got under some thin skins today.

I will say that I don't think these disruptors are engaging in civil discourse. To be sure, this is a hard-ball tactic being employed by conservatives. In fairness to them, these meetings are being arranged by Democratic party officials who are trying to push an agenda.

I typically find such ugliness, well just ugly. Harsh words don't sway me. For most people, harsh words do the opposite of convincing the other side. I think that is the point of these kinds of disruptions. If you create bigger and bigger rifts, then there are fewer areas to compromise.

By doing this, conservatives have entered a war of attrition. They don't have to come up with any real solutions. They just have to stop change. That seems to be their weapon now.

I think the liberals will weather this well, if they stay on the high road and maintain a civil discourse. Some of the posts above make me wonder if liberals have the stomach for that.

On a personal note. I will say that I am for a government plan. If Cigna, BlueCross and United Healthcare are relegated to the supplemental insurance bin, then I'm okay with that. If I have higher taxes, but lower insurance premiums, so bit it. We need a system in place where "for profit" and extremely profitible "not for profit" companies can deny Americans critical medical services and thereby force our citizens into virtual bankruptcy before qualifying for government assistance. We already have government run coverage for catastropic events: fire, police and military. Those forces work fairly well. We have a postal service that works. I think if we are given time, we can have a good health insurance solution. This leads me to my final note for today, which is, there is no rush on this. People for government health insurance options should push for rational change and keep momentum by keeping their heads and continue to speak the truth.

If this were lib's protesting some Republican plan it would be called Freedom of Speech-instead its people protesting some massive government spending program that will balloon out of control and never meet anyone's goals so the people are hate mongers, rednecks and "village idiots". People have legitimate questions and concerns. No one can answer the questions and their concerns are treated as hate speech.

I wrote, "We need a system in place where "for profit" and extremely profitible "not for profit" companies can deny Americans critical medical services and thereby force our citizens into virtual bankruptcy before qualifying for government assistance."

Ha! We already have that! ... I think it's obvious I meant to type "companies can NOT deny..."

That dang English language is SO tricky sometimes.

So no one has an answer for which part of the Constitution that empowers the gov to provide/control healthcare?

Didn't think so.

Any lefties want to answer my question about the fascist tactics the White House is engaging in?

Again, didn't think so. By remaining silent, you are giving consent. Be wary of where you stand on these types of things.

OllieH,

Just so you know, the fellow "right-winger"(patriot) who was assaulted at the townhall meeting earlier this week was black. Was he racist as well?

J.R.,

Yep, your right. When fascist tactics are used by the left, those of us on the right will strike back. We aren't going to have another 10s of millions of citizens purged like Germany, the USSR, ComChina, and assorted other bastions of leftist ideas. We are going to crush the facist where they stand. Blood has already been spilled. The leftists have visited violence upon those who believe in our Constitutional ideals. I have a feeling that if the current trajectory of the left continues, we will be swimming in blood before this ends. A physical attack on one is an attack upon all.

The way forward in this country, is a return to the individualist ideas upon which she was founded. If you don't like it, GFO. If anyone here thinks those of us who believe in the Constitution and the ideals behind it are going to go quietly into the night, you are wrong. Dead wrong.

It seems the time to water that liberty tree is fast approaching.

To paraphrase a great patriot, If there be trouble, let it come in my time, so that my children may live free.

jhenry- I've watched these so-called questions on tv. They are blaten shouting accusations that have one purpose only- that's to intimidate, disrupt and make the Democratic representative look bad. They accomplish the first two but the only ones that look bad are the idiots doing the intimidation. If any members of Congress in any way condone these actions, they are even worse.

SCOTTY asked "So no one has an answer for which part of the Constitution that empowers the gov to provide/control healthcare?"

Sure, I do Scotty, it's the same part that authorizes the space program. If we relied on legal positivism there are many things we would be without. As great as they were, the founding fathers couldn't think of everything!

Really Scotty, it's time to move into the 21st Century! I'll be happy to show you around.

alprova - your convoluted thinking isn't worth my time - see ya

moonpie - I think you said once you were going to be on a panel looking at healthcare reforms. If that wasn't you, I apologize for confusing you with someone else. If it was you, how did it work out?

Sailorman, your memory is correct. For all the promised input into the process, the only input they've really asked for is money. Methinks the panel is a panel in name only!

The "panel" is a for a Republican Congressman. The last time I talked to anyone on this panel I did let them know where I stand on the issues. They still wanted my money, but that's the last I heard from them.

I think they wanted my $ more than my advice.

moonpie - sorry to hear that. At least they got your opinion whether they wanted it or not :) typical politico tricks Repug or Dem.

Rolando, it is great you have wonderful coverage and you deserve it. Thank you for your service to our nation. It is the least our government can do for its Veterans is to provide care afterwards. This is not a socialism, this is basic decency.

I, also, would like to see all Americans able to receive health care. It is the least we can do for our fellow citizens. Americans should not have to suffer, die or go broke because they are uninsurable. We take care of our elderly, Veterans and impoverished, but there is a whole group of people that have nothing. This isn't right or moral. We are over in Iraq re-building that country which we destroyed, why not spend on our own citizens instead?

Someone up thread asked where in the Constitution does it allow the government to run health care? It doesn't. The Constitution was written 235 years ago, it is a fluid document and provides a basic frame work for us to set up government and individual rights.

moonpie,

The "space program" as in NASA, is but a thin veneer of civilian one-upsmanship, laid across the technological know-how to dominate space militarily if the need should arise. I disagree with the subterfuge, but Congress is obligated to militarily protect us, as a people, above all else.

Funding our low-budget "space program" is not the same thing as taking over an existing industry and adding trillions of dollars of debt onto the backs of our children... and acquiring control over life and death decisions.

moonpie, I am firmly planted in this century and doing my damnedest to see that it doesn't involve so much death and destruction as the last one. Marxist ideas took root in Europe and in half a century, tore it to pieces. I'm determined to not let that happen here.

The way forward is not deeper into the quagmire.

Jhenry, no one is referring to people who show up to have a civil discussion during these town hall meetings. I am quite sure that there are many Republicans who have personal objections and concerns, but they are being drowned out by those who are there for more nefarious reasons.

The problem as it has been for much of a week, involves those people referred to as "Astro-turfers." The DCI Group and the so-called FreedomWorks, both led by top Republicans, have served the interests of some of the most powerful corporate interests in the land. The DCI Group is associated with the so-called "Coalition to Protect Patient Rights," describes their organization as "a non-profit grass roots coalition of concerned citizens." This is the group that aired the Canadian woman with a pimple on the brain, redefined in the ads as a "brain tumor."

FreedomWorks is headed by former Republican Congressman, Dick Armey. This group is behind the "Tea bagging" movement. Several people have disrupting town hall meetings hosted by Democratic congressmen in protest of proposed tax increases on the rich.

Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Sean Hannity have all urged people on their respective radio talk shows to attend town hall meetings and to use aggressive tactics to disrupt these meetings.

alprova,

I'll skip over a lot here and point out that repub congress critters are catching heat as well. Especially the "go-along-get-along" squishy ones. We don't need them either.

I'll be just as happy to toss a big-gov repub off the gravytrain as I will to toss a big-gov dem. My distain is not so much at one party, so much as at the idea of a fix-it-all one-stop .gov shop with unlimited overhead that we taxpayers have to cover.

Hi, my name is Scotty, my government thinks I'm part of a mob, and a likely domestic terrorist as well. Ain't I special.

To bad we don't have a Samuel Adams around to get a real mob together, disassemble a few government servants' houses by hand, brick-by brick, and clear up what the meaning of a "mob" actually is.

Scotty wrote:

"So no one has an answer for which part of the Constitution that empowers the gov to provide/control healthcare?"

That's a weak argument at best. Clearly many things have changed since the Constitution was written, and there was no way for our Nation's fathers to foresee everything that has come down the pike. This is why we have had 27 amendments added to our Constitution.

But, I call your attention to Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, which states; "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.

The glossary of terms contained on most sites that host the Constitution, defines "welfare" as; "Welfare - welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being.

Hhmmmm. That's interesting. The same section allows our Government to assure prosperity. That means that saving the banks, GM and Chrysler was very constitutional as well.

The defense rests.

Your question regarding the word "fascism" cannot be truly addressed because the word is so often misapplied these days that it has lost it's meaning, however, one factor that must be in place in order for true "fascism" to even be a topic of discussion, would have to include evidence of a dictator or some semblance of totalitarianism, and as we all should know, there is absolutely no evidence of that at all.

Obama was elected to his office and he will leave that office no later than January of 2017, as is allowed under the Constitution of this land.

Sailorman stated: "

alprova - your convoluted thinking isn't worth my time - see ya"

Gotcha. I'm sure it's more along the line that you can't refute the facts laid on the table, but you're right...I'm not worth your time. I am not tripped up very easily because I do my own research.

alprova wrote, "would have to include evidence of a dictator or some semblance of totalitarianism,"

"Flag@whitehouse.gov" send in info on anyone giving "fishy" info about healthcare.

What do you call that? I know you are smarter than that, you know exactly what it is but are bound by ideology to ignore it.

As for the theory that the General Welfare clause includes healthcare for everyone, you are going to have to show that either: A. There was no medical treatment available at the time of the signing for the fedgov to pay for, or B. The fedgov started providing health care as soon as the states ratified the Constitution.

Otherwise it is revisionistic leftist/Marxist pap.

If you can get an Constitutional amendment passed that does indeed call for the fedgov to provide health care for all, then you'll have something. Till then you can add all the sophistry you like, and some people, who consider sophistication a sign of knowledge, will buy it. Those who know better still see that it is just leftist/Marxist bullsnot.

Alprova - Whatever floats your boat bub

Astro-turf jobs, come and get em.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/etc/1303066561.html

Which party do ya'll figure will be controlling these people?

I'm neutral on the flag@whitehouse.gov issue. I found it a little offbeat, but I also view it a little differently than some people.

It's a way for the Administration to understand just how much misinformation is being spewed out there.

That's strictly my opinion though.

On to the Constitutional issue:

You can't be serious. I can list a thousand examples of Government funded mandates considered to be for acts of welfare, if I had the time, that did not exist at the time that the Constitution was ratified.

The phrase covers just about anything on the planet that can be defined as being for the "general welfare of the United States."

I thought that the word "health" in the glossary pretty much trumped it myself.

But keep grasping those straws if you must.

Scotty, I really failed to take note of any report that stated that canvassing groups for the environmentalists were crashing town hall meetings to drum up support for clean energy.

If they have, they sure have been quiet about it.

That group has been around for 27 years.

I'm sure there was some point you were trying to make when you dug that one up, but I'm sure scratching my head to figure out what it was.

Clearly, they side with Democrats. And?

Health Care: Obama’s Mercenaries Vs. Freedom Fighters August 9, 2009 / 3:05 pm • By Dr. Melissa Clouthier

How about a little something for the effort? The Democratic party and their grassroots organizers are paying workers to hold signs and show up. Who is the mob again? Here’s some Craig’s List examples in Sacramento:

Aug 7 – Make social change – Help Pass Obama’s Health Care Reform!!! – (Sacramento) img < Aug 4 – Help pass Obama’s Health Care Reform!!! Earn $9-14 an hour!!! – (Sacramento) img < Aug 3 – ***Help Pass Obama’s Health Care Plan and Earn $325-$500/Week – (Sacramento, CA) img < Jul 31 – Help Pass Obama’s Health Care Reform! Earn $325-550 per week! – (Sacramento) img < Jul 29 – Work to Pass Obama’s Plans this Summer! Earn $9-14/hr! – (Sacramento) img < Jul 28 – Build Support for Obama’s Plans!!! Earn $325-550 a Week! – (Sacramento) img < Jul 27 – HELP PASS OBAMA’S PLANS AND EARN $325-550 A WEEK!!! – (Berkeley) img < Jul 27 – HELP PASS OBAMA’S PLANS AND EARN $325-550 A WEEK!!! – (Sacramento) img < Jul 23 – HELP PASS OBAMA’S PLAN TO FIGHT GLOBAL WARMING! EARN $9-14/HOUR!!! – (Sacramento) img < Jul 21 – BUILD PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR OBAMA’S PLAN & EARN $9-14 AN HOUR!!! – (Sacramento) img < Jul 15 – Make $350-550 per Week Working for OBAMA’s PROGRESSIVE AGENDA!!! – (Sacramento) img < Jul 14 – SUMMER CAMPAIGN STAFF POSITIONS AVAILABLE!!! EARN $350-550 A WEEK! – (Sacramento) img

Wow! If I switched to the dark side, I could get paid for spouting ignorant ramblings, and carrying a picket sign.

Now who is the astro-turf grass roots.

Here's a little tidbit that does have everything to do with what we are discussing today.

Fox News has posted on their front page no less, a link to a PDF file listing all the scheduled town hall meetings.

Now why would they do that?

Everyone knows why they have that link up on their site, but some would never admit it in a million years. And of course, it's all under the guise of being "fair and balanced" because they have Republican town hall meetings listed too.

That's the final straw as far as I am concerned. The Fox News icon was just removed from my tool bar. Rupert Murdoch is about to start charging subscription fees to read the site anyway and I'm such a tightwad, so I'll wean myself off of them a little early.

sandyon signal --

I agree re: VA med care for all -- provided they have invested their blood, sweat, and tears in our military and therein absorbed some damage...not necessarily battle damage either. Firing a 3-inch barreled pistol 50-100 rounds on the range every 3 months for 25-odd years and heavy caliber rifles for 15 yrs before that -- or jet engine noise close up -- pretty well ruins later-life hearing...ear protection or no. Stress, pressure, worry, etc all contribute to hypertension and its sidekicks. This is called "paying your dues".

I use VA very little; that care is for those who cannot afford regular insurance or cannot qualify for it. My other insurance covers regular doctor care.

Evidently you are not aware Medicare and/or TriCare pay absolutely nothing toward any VA costs for medical treatment. They bill my private insurance directly...

MediCare does not subsidize my private insurance [whatever that means in this context]. MediCare sets the doctor/hospital rates lower and lower each year -- by law. Wait until ObamaCare rolls in and watch them cut it to the point where our doctors go into research or just get out altogether. It is happening now. Guess what their other cost-cutting features are?

Essentially, Medicare beancounting low-level bureaucrats set the rates for specific treatment regimens and determine if you should have that treatment. It found eligible, they then pay up to 80% of that amount; my private insurance covers most all of the remaining 20% and TriCare pays the loose change.

Finally, if ObamaCare is so great, why is Medicare going broke? After all, THEY determine how much they will pay the doctor/hospital. It even has an appeal process. ObamaCare does not...so we are stuck with its decisions. Fascism in the making.

alprova wrote, "It's a way for the Administration to understand just how much misinformation is being spewed out there."

concerning flag@whitehouse.gov.

Isn't this supposed to be the most tech-literate white house staff ever? Or is that just more BS as well. I didn't figure anyone would even try to justify this, but I'll give you an D- for effort.

"I can list a thousand examples of Government funded mandates considered to be for acts of welfare, if I had the time, that did not exist at the time that the Constitution was ratified."

And moving even further away from the founding ideals is OK with you? When you get time, go ahead and look them up. You'll be doing yourself no favors by pointing a finger at the places where the fedgov has run off the tracks. I suspect you will also find where a lot of the federal budget disappears to as well.

Okay...last post. I gotta hit the bed.

Scotty, if you can't see the difference between people who advocate their opinions honestly and with respect towards others, versus what the "village idiots" AKA as "Astro-turfers" have been attempting to do at town hall meetings, then there really isn't anything more to discuss.

Paying people to canvass neighborhoods for polling purposes, to collect signatures on a petition, or to hold signs on a street to draw attention to a cause is nothing new or vaguely improper. In California, that's quite routine.

Your comparing apples and watermelons.

alprova wrote,

"Fox News has posted on their front page no less, a link to a PDF file listing all the scheduled town hall meetings.

Now why would they do that?"

Are you kidding me? Are they not a news organization? Is a local townhall meeting with your congress critters not news? Are they supposed to bury this info and instead do a puff piece about POTUS's new pen set he got for the Resolute desk? We wouldn't want anyone who isn't invited to take part in our gov now would we?

Dude(Dudette), you're losing it.

alprova wrote, "Your comparing apples and watermelons."

You're wearing ideological blinders.

G-night, don't let the spider women bite. ;)

With 71 comments, Sunday must be a slow day. Just for comment, how about the viability of private health insurance or private health care cooperatives organized much like the present day farm and electric coops.

una61,

Is fed.gov involved in your idea, or just a local board?

A co-op works pretty good for telephone and water in rural areas as well. Health co-op, maybe. It is something to look into.

I have no problem with "fixing" the healthcare system. I would rather see the fed.gov let the states experiment with this if they choose to do so, instead of founding some new bureaucracy to oversee our every little health issue and chew through cash like a rockstar on coke.

The fedgov can fix some of the biggest problems with little bitty bills. There is no excuse for the behemoth piles they are pushing around now. Those bills aren't going to "fix" anything except bureaucracy@fed.gov/power, and from past experience we should all know, there will be unforeseen consequences that no one will like.

The cost of the assorted other entitlement programs is sinking this country, and adding more is honestly being enthusiastically endorsed. It is mind boggling that any of the so-called "elite" in D.C. could possibly be so stupid.

As I said earlier, going deeper into the quagmire is not the way forward.

There was a special on TV this evening that showed a few "town hall" style talks regarding the health care plan. People were unexplainably angry. They did not go to discuss or to be informed - or to inform others. They were just angry. That seemed a bit fishy. Found an interesting poll on folks thoughts on this matter:

http://www.polladium.com/poll.php?poll_id=141&location_id=1

SammyTB wrote,

"That seemed a bit fishy."

Send it in to flag@whitehouse.gov. They need the work.

Perhaps the parts you were seeing were the results of peoples questions being ignored, misconstrued or demonized. People get pretty irate when their employee's do that sort of thing.

How much does a barrel of tar cost these days anyway?

Scotty wrote:

"And moving even further away from the founding ideals is OK with you? When you get time, go ahead and look them up. You'll be doing yourself no favors by pointing a finger at the places where the fedgov has run off the tracks. I suspect you will also find where a lot of the federal budget disappears to as well."

Scotty, we do not live in the same world that our founding fathers lived in. They had no concept of what America would be like 330 years in the future.

"Are you kidding me? Are they not a news organization?"

Actually, the evidence exists that they are nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Republican Party.

"Is a local townhall meeting with your congress critters not news?"

Let me respond to that question with another. When have you ever seen a list like that ever posted in the past? It's unprecidented, and you know full and well why it was posted.

"Are they supposed to bury this info and instead do a puff piece about POTUS's new pen set he got for the Resolute desk?"

Bury it? They probably assigned the task of CREATING it to someone in the news department so that they could post it.

alprova,

330 years? Some one needs more coffee, because I distinctly remember the bicentennial celebration. Regardless, those founding ideals have no expiration date, and can be applied to any civilization.

"Actually, the evidence exists that they(Foxnews) are nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Republican Party."

The same sort of evidence that shows most all of the rest of the media is snuggled up tight with the Dem party?

"Let me respond to that question with another. When have you ever seen a list like that ever posted in the past? It's unprecedented, and you know full and well why it was posted."

Are you attempting to say that no one ever knew about townhall meetings before this? Poppycock.

Why are the other news organizations NOT listing this info? Could it be because keeping the populace in the dark concerning the (dis)functioning of the fedgov is their first duty to their master?

It seems you are so consumed by partisan bile that you can no longer think straight. I predict we will see more of this sort of distorted thinking as the wheels continue to come off of POTUS's bus. Cognitive dissonance is a B****!

Long live the Republic!

SCOTTYM writes: "So no one has an answer for which part of the Constitution that empowers the gov to provide/control healthcare?"

I would reverse the question to ask you where the constitution forbids the government from doing so? Many of these town hall protesters claim that government run health care is unconstitutional. If that was the case, Medicare and Medicaid would have been struck down years ago. Your question is more than a little bit irrelevant seeing that many duties or powers that the government has taken on, are not expressly spelled out in the constitution.

SCOTTYM writes more: "Any lefties want to answer my question about the fascist tactics the White House is engaging in?"

What would those tactics be SCOTTYM? Pardon me if I missed it, but I hardly hang on every word you write.

This discussion got off the track a long time ago. There is nothing wrong with people expressing their concerns and displeasure with the government. THAT is democracy. However, when we allow our emotions to dictate our behavior it stops being a discussion and starts being mass chaos. Democracy can not live in chaos. If people are going to attend town hall meetings to simply scream and yell and act like crazy people they are no longer there to defend democracy. They are there to create a spectacle and that DOES stop progress. Much like the talking heads on ALL cable news shows. This has got to stop being about Republican and Democrat and start being about the people. And the people have got to stop acting like children and learn to use their 'grown-up words'.

In addition, please stop saying racism is not an issue here. I see it and hear it everyday.

NPR had an interesting report on Canadian Health Care this morning.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111721651

This is an interesting perspective that Americans usually do not here about. If you missed it, check it out.

The new proposed health care bill may not explicitly state anything about Canada in it, but the systems would obviously bear similarities.

I hesitate to believe any poll/study findings, because they are almost always skewed to prove the point (whatever it is) of the people conducting the study. Therefore, I tend to believe that the numbers of Canadians coming into our country for healthcare, as presented in the 2002 study, could likely be inaccurate. Also, it does not account for people who may wish to seek care outside of Canada, but lack the financial means to do so. It is obviously not cheap to travel, pay out of pocket expenses, etc.

OllieH,

Try the tenth amendment. It is pretty clear.

You didn't miss the fascist tactics, you're wearing the same ideological blinders as alprova and ignoring them. Citizens being directed to turn in other citizens for not spouting the party line, and being directed to shut down discussion at townhall meetings via thug tactics is not fascist in your book? How about federal control of banks, the auto industry, the energy industry, and the healthcare industry? They are not finished with all of it yet, but the intent is clear a day. You just don't want to see it because your little leftist fantasies would sink into the slimy statist ooze that is the current reality in D.C. Wake up!!!

Re: Medicare/Medicaid you are right, they are extra-Constitutional. Together they consume nearly a quarter of the federal budget. And ya'll want more? Idiocy.

I'm beginning to wonder if some of the people here have ever had a Civics class, or even read a book about the founding of our country. Perhaps this is the problem. Now who is in control of the our failing education system? Oh yeah, more leftist bureaucrats and union dupes. Are we seeing the pattern yet? The less informed, or rather more misinformed the populace, the easier we are to control. They're doing a pretty good job too, because the current administration is playing some of ya'll like a fiddle, and ya'll actually seem to enjoy being used as brownshirts.

ctfpfan08,

The reason those people are yelling and making a spectacle is because their reps refuse to answer their questions, or to give a straight answer if they do. The polite questions at the beginning are cut out to serve the leftist media narrative. Please take note of who is initiating the violence, and who is not.

Marjorie,

I heard that story this morning, too. It seemed like a very fair accounting of the medical situation in Canada and reflects what I have seen from other sources, including Canadians. They discussed the good and the bad.

To be sure their system is not perfect but, overall, it's better than ours.

That may be true, moonpie, but only if you are young, healthy, and not in need of serious medical care.

For the serious stuff, they come here.

Did you note the Brit who went to her doctor with two-days of chest pain? [It took that long to get an appointment.] The NHS doc sent her home with instructions to take an OTC painkiller; i.e., ibuprofen. She was 35 years old; she died at home that afternoon in view of her young son.

Pity she couldn't have made it here... That will be us should ObamaCare pass.

rolando,

Your characterization of the Canadian system is not accurate. You make it sound like the only doctors in Canada are general practitioners who can only prescribe medication.

Very few patients cross the border to the US. Fewer than 0.5% and some of those were either paid for by the Canadian system or were emergent overflow issues.

As for the NHS doctor who told a patient to take over the counter pain medications and the lady died... that happens in the USA right now. Medical misjudgements happen here, too. (Perhaps tort reform is the answer here... we can sweep our mistakes aside, if we get it.)

The sad truth is that for industrialized nations, our system of medical care ranks last in preventable death.

Our health delivery system is not helping this.

Is that what you want? Do you really want us to rally behind the banner cry, "We're number 18, We're number 18!"

I believe the founding fathers knew exactly what they were doing. That is why the Constitution has only been changed twenty-seven times, and some of those were because the fed was trying to stick its nose in the States business. Healthcare is NOT a right of the citizens, it is a priviledge, a benefit provided by employers to employees who work for them. The fed needs to stay out of the insurance business, just like it had no business in the banking or auto business. Greed caused their problems, they should have been alloweed to fail. Now my grandkids have to pay for their greediness.

nativecistizen, you're right, healthcare is not a right. It's a duty.

Furthermore, Americans do have the right to petition their government and to enact change, such as the establishment of a national healthcare system.

Moonpie - Nicely said, as always. Native - You said "Healthcare is NOT a right of the citizens, it is a privilege, a benefit provided by employers to employees who work for them" Let’s say your house is burning down and you need the fire department, or you have been robbed and beaten and you need the police. Should those things also be a privilege? When someone needs help, it should be available to him or her. No matter how much money they have.

moonpie,

Tort reform, YES!!! That is one of those little bitty bills I made reference to earlier.

When health providers mess up, they should be held accountable, however, lawyers are making millions due to "pain and suffering" awards and driving liability insurance for providers through the roof. Those costs get passed on to us consumers. There has to be some sort of sane middle ground.

One of the other little bitty bills I'd like to see is mandated co-pay for every Dr. visit, test, etc. So many who are now covered have nearly zero cost exposure. This leads to overuse. Price signals that are obvious to the consumer would end "working the system" as some family members of mine proudly refer to it. Got a hangnail? See the Dr. Got the sniffles? See the Dr. and get $1200 worth of tests to tell you, "you have the sniffles".

nativecitizen,

Hello, you're now part of a "mob", I like that in a person. Nice to meet you.

You have it right, nativecitizen.

Marhorie: That's what private fire insurance is all about. To protect your property against loss.

The police have no duty requirement to protect individual citizens -- by SCOTUS fiat. Carrying a gun is a form of life insurance against slow or delayed police response. It is called being a responsible citizen.

Police cannot respond until a crime has actually been committed or is in progress. Unsubstantiated fears do not count.

Good health is NOT a right. Nor is health insurance. [Wish they were...]

Right now, moonpie, it appears over half of the US citizens do NOT want ObamaCare.

Which is NOT to say they do not want improvement...but they want a little thought taken in the legislative process.

Passing unread bills is irresponsible, to say the least.

rolando wrote,

"Passing unread bills is irresponsible, to say the least."

I nominate this for the most understated comment of the year.

Vote on a bill you didn't read, receive a one way ticket back home, immediately. I never sign anything with out reading it multiple times to assure I did not miss anything. It's called personal responsibility. Our Reps should be more responsible than ordinary citizens, not less, as their actions affect millions of people. Now that is some "reform" I can get behind.

To question the constitutionality of a government run health insurance is a non-issue. You folks who cling onto this idea are simply talking to yourselves. Why don't you try promoting an argument that has some merit.

Oh wait, I just figured out why you resorted to the constitutionality thing in the first place.

Never mind.

This cartoon is an exellent depiction of how our elected official's feel about us. They think we are a bunch of idiots and they are trying to slide another program by us.

The left use to say, question authority. Now they are the majority and say, don't question us.

Oz,

I gave you a thumbs up on that. That is funny.

I also agree with the notion that we don't need to rush this.

I also agree with rolando (it can happen)... I think that part of the reason "ObamaCare" is losing some steam is because of the rush to pass it. I understand the Democrats wanting to cash in some of their political gains and get this through. Some of them probably think it won't get passed unless it gets passed quickly. So they'll take any bill, thinking they'll fix any problems later. I think a lot of Americans are wary of that. We get suspicious of a rush to a major overhaul.

I think persistence for Health Insurance reform will pay off in the end.

Finally, how could anyone give SCOTTYM a bad mark on his last post? We may disagree to the core on many issues, but who really thinks our representatives should pass legislation they haven't read and don't understand?

The digital voting was unjust, Scotty.

Thanks moonpie.

We all know some kind of reform is needed. Let the President, Congress, and Senate try out the plan for a couple of years. Let them work out the kinks before they throw us into the system. Then it might be credible!

OllieH wrote, "To question the constitutionality of a government run health insurance is a non-issue."

This true only for ignorant people, or those who detest the rule of law. Which are you?

Wait, I know the answer to this question already.

Oz,

That is a pretty good summation.

I read this somewhere or another a few days ago: "Want to know what the leftists are up to? Look at what they are blaming on the "other".

moonpie at 7:42 p.m.,

Perfectly stated.

I'm not really inclined to care about those "useful" votes. I'm pretty sure more than a few here vote no, simply because it is me.

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Winston Churchill

the healthcare bill is not about providing healthcare to those in need. it is a political power grab.

and, it wasn't written by obama. it has been sitting around gathering dust while the democrats waited for a filibuster proof majority and a willing president.

its purpose is simple.

those receiving taxpayer assistance overwhelmingly favor democrat candidates. if democrats make more people dependent on government, they gain votes.

its simple political strategy, much like gerimandering a district to elect democrats (e.g. tennessee's 4th district, which stretches from oneida, on the ky border, in east tn, through franklin, in middle, tn, to hohenwald, almost to jackson, and down to the alabama border and iron city).

Oz: out of 98 comments on this cartoon you hit it perfectly

"This cartoon is an exellent depiction of how our elected official's feel about us. They think we are a bunch of idiots and they are trying to slide another program by us.

The left use to say, question authority. Now they are the majority and say, don't question us."

khargis: great points, much agreed

If you're a liberal lashing out at a conservative, you're a member of a community organization. If you're a conservative lashing out at a liberal, you're a member of a angry mob.

khargis, I agree with a lot of what you say. This is not Obama's bill and it has been on the shelf for a long time. Obama has given guidance as to what he'd like to see, but you don't whip out 1000 pages on a whim.

I also agree that it is a strategy to wrest control of healthcare from insurance companies, and to a degree, it is a power grab.

Where I would disagree with you is in the concept that this isn't also about healthcare.

I'm not 100% behind the bills as currently crafted. I want them to go farther, but then, I don't have to shy away from my goals for political concerns.

This isn't just about solidifying power. It's also about doing the right thing. Unfortunately doing the right thing can sometimes be very tricky politically. I wish we could just rip off the bandaid.

Instead, we'll get something half-way. It will be a compromise.

Once we get to universal coverage, I think a lot of the people who were against it are going to be pleasantly surprised.

You'll still have a choice for supplemental healthcare, if you want it.

When Pelosi, Reid, Biden, et al., keep saying, "we've been trying for 50 years to get this through and we've never been closer than right now," does it not occur to them that 50 years of rejection is a pretty clear indication that they are pushing something which the majority of Americans do not want? Yet they persist.

Calling for groups and unions to organize for Obama's healthcare reform while at the same time demonizing and marginalizing those who exercise their right to organize against it just shows the arrogance and hypocrisy of the left.

"There was a special on TV this evening that showed a few "town hall" style talks regarding the health care plan. People were unexplainably angry. They did not go to discuss or to be informed - or to inform others. They were just angry. That seemed a bit fishy."

Perhaps that's because these people who are attending the town hall meetings are ALREADY informed. More informed about what's being proposed than the congressperson who is holding the meeting. More informed than the representatives who vote on 1,000 page bills without reading them to see what they are voting on. It would be a sad day if Americans who knew they were on the verge of being railroaded into the largest, most expensive government power grab in history weren't angry about it. They are not "unexplainably" angry. They are very explainably angry. They should be livid, and many of them are. The Democrats have been caught red-handed, hoping the media's worship of Obama would be enough cover to quickly pull one over on the American people and now they are defensive and whining because it isn't going as planned.

Hopefully the unemployment picture will be improved by 2010 because there are going to be a lot of Democratic politicians out looking for jobs after the mid-term elections.

So Lightnup and those who are like-minded,

Apart from saying "no" to the current proposal, what are your ideas to prevent people from having to go virtually or literally bankrupt before they qualify for a federal insurance plan? Or do you prefer the current system, where to qualify you must become an unproductive member of society?

Also, why is the current U.S. system so far behind other nations in terms of outcomes?

Finally, our current system discriminates against mom and pop shops. The little guy in America gets squeezed, while large corporations get better deals on healthcare benefits.

And most people still don't have the freedom to choose their plan. Their companies select the plan. Most people just get to choose whether or not to participate. Even then, some conditions are excluded from coverage.

We have the most costly system in the world. We get the least for it.

If you were going to set up a system today, from scratch, is this really the system you would design?

If not, quit just saying "no" and find a way to move forward and work with the people who are trying to initiate change.

Change isn't always bad.

Who told you our system is "so far behind", moonpie? Or that Canadians do not come here for treatment denied them at home for whatever the reason? What do they stand to gain in so saying? Do they use techniques developed and perfected in the US under US research programs? Do they use US discovered drugs? If any of that is true, we are not "so far behind" at all.

Here is a quote from Wikipedia re: Big Lie. "The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf for a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously". The Russians used it to great advantage in the nasty fifties.

I learned long ago to question motives and look for the dark side [an occupational hazard]. It is always there...and usually found easily.

Or are we "so far behind" ONLY because folks think we do not provide free medical care to all and sundry, children and illegals included? [We actually do provide it, you know.]

Beware a government that presents itself as benevolent and caring...it will take everything you have.

Moonpie - the reason I and others like me are saying "NO" is because we want to stop the mad rush into government-controlled, government-run socialized health care, which is what Obama, Pelosi, Reid are trying to jam down our throats, hoping we wouldn't wake up before it was passed.

We are not saying "NO" to healthcare reform. We are saying "HELL NO!" to this particular massive takeover and "HELL NO!" to the crazy insistence that it must be done in a matter of weeks.

Republicans were not allowed to contribute their ideas to the Pelosi plan and it completely ignores any private sector solutions. SLOW DOWN the express train to Obamacare, let both sides have input into solutions beyond Nancy Pelosi's dream of total government control, and I'll change my "NO" to "OK, let's hear some more rational balanced proposals and let's have it done in a reasonably measured time-frame, not an irrational fear-based frenzy."

In the meantime, JUST SAY NO is the right answer to the immediate situation.

SCOTTYM writes, "OllieH, Try the tenth amendment. It is pretty clear."

Again, Scotty, you're just talking to yourself.

But then again, it may be the only person who'll listen.

Ollie, that's just rude.

seems to me that most people who respond to clay's cartoons are a bit on the "self important" side. that's all.

3/16/2005 USA Today article:GOP boards up the 'town hall' It appeared that the same tactic used by the Republicans to deal with the issue of health care were once used on them by concerned citizens that had questions about the privitization of Social Security.Their leaders told them to keep a "low profile" So they ran to small groups and editorial boards and other small gatherings to get their point across about issues with Social Security.

Fast forward to today as noted on a local TV station website here in North Carolina they are still running. The 2 esteemed representatives of the state of North Carolina will not hold town hall meetings. Cngresswoman Virginia Foxx who stood on the floor of the House of Representatives and accused the current President of the United States of "state sanctioned" euthanasia will hold a TELEPHONE town hall meeting on August 20, 2009. I see they are STILL running again. Why can't they come out and deal with the heat that various Democratic representatives have dealt with over this issue. Cowards is all that comes to mind.

It would be interesting to see how many Republican elected officials witll "cancel" their town hall meetings now that there may be a concerted effort to disrupt their town hall meetiings