published Tuesday, November 24th, 2009

The Medics

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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woody said...

Don't tell me, we have to guess which of the congressional(?) medical workers is which. Right??

In a world fraught with contradictions, one side or the other of the ongoing heath care reform argument is either lying through their collective teeth, or neither will move far enough away from their own position to make the necessary changes to make it work.

Now, which is it???

Thank you for your time and attention, Woody

November 24, 2009 at 6:07 a.m.
OllieH said...

I don't think we have to guess at all, woody.

With both the Republicans and the conservative Democrats gumming up the works on health care reform, I see the medic on the right as being either of those group.

November 24, 2009 at 9:22 a.m.
rolando said...

Some things just cost too much to "work" [read most any social action run by the government].

And who is to say which worker is more for the nation; the one dragging the patient on the obscenely obese dead horse called HCF, or the one dragging his feet trying to beat some sense into the first guy's head?

I'm curious to see who the dead-horse dragger will suborn to get the 60 horsepower needed to drag the patient kicking and screaming into the [empty-of-doctors] ER...

Must be tough not having Lieberman pulling in front...but I am sure RINO-Snowe will again be induced to take his place and "save" the good boys and girls in the striped pants. [Probably for much less than Landrieu's $300 million worth of oats...]


Good cartoon, Clay; although I am surprised the two guys aren't labeled with the two parties... I can guess which would be labeled which.

November 24, 2009 at 9:26 a.m.
rolando said...

Oops. Should have been "induce" vice "suborn".

November 24, 2009 at 9:28 a.m.
woody said...

Okay, Rolando, I've made through another wondrous day only to find yours was the last 'post'.

To summarize; I said, "...one side or the other of the ongoing heath care reform argument is either lying through their collective teeth, or neither will move far enough away from their own position to make the necessary changes to make it work...."

Then, you said, "...Some things just cost too much to "work"...."

Just for the record..how much is too much to ensure someone without health coverage doesn't just have to 'give up'??

Rolando, we've never met, to my knowledge. And if we ever do I would like to think we could have a sensible conversation. But first you have to make me understand how someone so seemingly intelligent can simply state "X" amount is too much too spend on the health and welfare of your fellow Americans.

I understand about budgets and how strained they may become when money is tight, or even non-existent. However, I have no comprehension or any way of ascertaining how much is too much to spend on a neighbor who needs my help.

I'd ask you to teach me how to do this, but I am not really sure I want to know. And yet I hold out hope that one day we will meet...and speak of things, other than health care.

Thank you again for your time and attention, Woody

November 24, 2009 at 4:45 p.m.
rolando said...

lol. And yours was again first, woody. Hope your day is better tomorrow...

The courts have pretty much put a dollar value on life. It depends on if they are "human" yet [the unborn], an ancient like me, a young urbanite...or a Senator, a Bill Gates, a Tom Cruise, et al. I will leave it at that. Evidently, some are considered more valuable than others.

I am sure we would have have a lively [but civil] discussion should we ever meet, woody. I would explain that anything that will surely bankrupt this nation -- if we aren't already there -- is too much to spend. I consider the US as my family...some estranged, some not...and would spend money up to the point of not endangering the majority. This health bill will condemn hundreds of millions to bankruptcy to insure, what[??], 15-20 million uninsured??. That is pretty poor numbers. Bang per buck must be considered somewhere along the way, especially when it could determine our very survival as a nation. IMO we are quite close to it. Have you seen gold -- the most common measure -- is now pushing very close to $1,200 per oz? Up from $350 25-odd years ago? Purchasing power is down already and getting worse.

I believe very strongly in personal, faith-based help for my "neighbor" in true need and I give it...but not to some percentage of what I give being doled out to some unknown with a Blackberry, large screen tV, new car, designer clothes, $150 tennis shoes, etc. The poor will always be with us...some by choice since the pickings are so good. Cold hearted? Perhaps. It is also reality. I cannot save everyone.

You do know that a large percentage of those without health insurance do not want it, right? So we are going to force them to take it or go to jail? Think about that, woody. Take it or go to jail.

I am not trying to teach you something foreign to your convictions; just to keep an open mind. I hear the "lol" now...me? Open mind? Yeah, I try...I am just opinionated but I can discuss reasonable topics...like this one.

November 24, 2009 at 8:06 p.m.
Clara said...

Five posts?

I know you're not slipping, Clay.

Your expression of part of the problem was great, as usual. You justified my earlier claim that you were willing to hit both sides of the political agenda, not only the Reps., but that the Reps. had offered more material for your productions.

I think some of the other bloggers are scrapping at another site on this newspaper.

November 24, 2009 at 8:14 p.m.
Lightnup said...

Woody wrote: "Just for the record..how much is too much to ensure someone without health coverage doesn't just have to 'give up'??"

We'll never know, because instead of actually helping those who don't have health coverage, the liberals want to wreck the coverage that 85% of Americans currently have and are not unhappy with. There has never been a serious attempt at addressing coverage for the chronically uninsured. That's not the Dem's objective and wouldn't give Obama/Pelosi/Reid the control over the health care system that they desire, in order to help out their union pals and to get as many more people as possible dependent on government.

This has bever been about covering your neighbor who needs health coverage. It'a about taking over a substantial segment of the economy and grabbing more control over the private sector "for the good of the country," similar to their hold on the banking, finance and automobile industries, whether it's constitutional or not.

Tax us for 4 years before coverage even begins? Are there any guarantees that collected money won't be spent on other entitlements? (Social Security lockbox is full of nothing but government IOUs.) Carve out a separate "doc-fix" provision of a couple hundred Billion dollars so that they don't have to include it in scoring the real cost? Ignore every single suggestion from the Republican side? This thing has been a sham and a sleazy scam from the beginning, evidenced by the fact that every proposal from the Dems has left tens of millions of Americans still without health coverage.


For those of you liberals who keep saying that the country is in favor of this economic debacle:

"The most recent CBS News poll shows only 40 percent of Americans approve of the proposed health care plans in Congress while 45 percent disapprove." http://www.cbsnews.com/2718-250_162-209.html?tag=contentMain;contentBody

"Just 38% of voters now favor the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s the lowest level of support measured for the plan in nearly two dozen tracking polls conducted since June. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 56% now oppose the plan." http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

We want private-sector improvements to the current system, NOT a government takeover and monstrous entitlement program. But what most Americans want clearly doesn't matter to those in power.

November 24, 2009 at 10:09 p.m.
alprova said...

Lightnup, as usual, you're guilty of spewing tired rhetoric with very little substance behind it.

First of all, there is absolutely no advantage to be gained by any politician, or group of politicians, in "wrecking" health care coverage for "85% of Americans" whom you claim are content with their health care coverage. There will be no advantage gained if they fail to produce health care reforms that do nothing to actually reform our system of health care.

Hilarious, outrageous, and ludicrous, can only describe the claims that our legislators and the current Administration are attempting to take over health care or any other private enterprise.

No one is, or has to date, attempted to seize control of any private enterprise. People with just a hint of common sense are able to see through that silly accusation. Many watched those hearings involving repetitive pleas for Government assistance by their respective CEO's to save those private enterprises, that otherwise would have fallen forever.

And as usual, you, like so many other Democratic bashers, are getting all worked up over proposals that are hardly conclusive, final, or even possible in some cases. The legislation referred to as the health care reform bill will absolutely undergo hundreds of changes in the coming weeks or months as it may well come to pass, before anyone will begin to know what the final bill will have in it.

A perfectly plausible explanation for any turn in the tide of public opinion regarding health care legislation, is the uncertainty that exists in the "mandatory insurance coverage" provisions that are being proposed.

And finally, citing selective polls is just as laughable as it always has been when it comes to gauging public opinion.

Rassmussen is easily discounted because they use computer dialed phones to call people for responses -- A method that is a little more than outdated and hardly impartial.

Easily found on your other cited source of info, the CBS website, are the results of a CBS poll that you either failed to look at, or conveniently dismissed because it didn't prove your argument. The results of that poll were posted on November 17, clearly indicating recent opinions that most Americans STILL want the public option to be a part of whatever legislation comes down the pike. 51% for the public option versus 16% opposed to any public option. That's quite a spread in numbers.

Adding those who claim to want NO health care reform bill at all, only pushes the number opposed to reform up to 42%. If you want to claim the undecided, your still not halfway there.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/17/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5687505.shtml?tag=featuredPostArea

It might be best if you do not try to attempt to speak for "most Americans."

You, and all others who do so make yourselves look rather silly when you attempt to do it.

November 25, 2009 at 2:02 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "This health bill will condemn hundreds of millions to bankruptcy to insure, what[??], 15-20 million uninsured??. That is pretty poor numbers."

Those are not poor numbers. They are made up numbers that cannot begin to be justified. In short, Rolando, you're full of it.

Really Rolando, hundreds of millions?

I hate to point out the obvious AGAIN to you, but while you are set for the rest of YOUR life, drawing your taxpayer funded Government pension(s), and taxpayer funded free health care for the rest of YOUR life, there are people out there who ARE filing bankruptcy every day of the week, due to medical bills that they cannot begin to pay.

A 5% tax on the income of those who make six figure incomes or better, is not going to come close to bankrupting so much as one, that is unless their ability to manage their personal finances is no better than your estimating the impact of a 5% tax increase upon the wealthy.

November 25, 2009 at 2:22 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando mused: "Have you seen gold -- the most common measure -- is now pushing very close to $1,200 per oz? Up from $350 25-odd years ago? Purchasing power is down already and getting worse."

I'm confused. If Gold is such a common measure, then why did the clerk at Bi-Lo refuse to take my wedding band to pay for my groceries the other day? I asked if I had a BAR of gold, would they accept that. Nope.

I was told that they like dollars. In fact, they said that I could buy anything I wanted in that store, if I had enough dollars to pay for it. The sky was the limit.

And so, I came to the conclusion that as long as they keep printing those dollars that everyone likes, we can keep buying all kinds of stuff with them.

Who needs gold? There isn't one country left on the planet that is using the gold standard to evaluate it's currency.

November 25, 2009 at 2:33 a.m.
rolando said...

What is the current population of the United States, alprova. "Hundreds of millions" is correct. Bankrupt this country and you bankrupt every one of them. Get your head together, stay off the medicinal pot, and think before you write.


My, my. Such sour grapes, alprova. So you blame me for your poor life-decisions and those who chose poverty and welfare-for-life. My, my.

And if you think the taxes and fees to run this abortion of a health care system will end with the rich, I have this bridge for sale...cheap...you will love it. It is certified by the DNC.


And you are easily confused re: international financial basics, alprova. See pre-war Germany re: the "increasing" or "stable" value of their flat money.

And then wonder why India just bought several hundred tons of gold bullion [using dollars as I recall...but maybe not]. They sure don't intend on using it for dental work. That is called an educated hedge bet.

So you keep your dollars...and watch their purchasing power drop as our government drops with them. Or perhaps it is the other way 'round.

November 25, 2009 at 6:39 a.m.
Clara said...

Alprova,

I didn't notice anyone buying 100 tons of gold from US. When? Where?

I haven't taken the time to figure out how much American Money that is worth. But then, I'm definitely not into High Finance.

Let's see...$1,200 an ounce. 100 tons=200,000 lbs @ 16 oz per lb.= 3,200,000 oz time $1,200 an ounce = $3,840,000,000.

If India did buy it from us and gold isn't really worth $1200 what did we lose? It also seems to me that Three Billion Eight Hundred Forty Million isn't going to pay off our debts. But then, as I said, what do I know?

November 25, 2009 at 8:56 a.m.
rolando said...

They bought it on the open European market, if memory serves. Gold is continuously going up against the dollar; they paid about $960 or so as I [vaguely] recall. And yes, it was a bunch of flat money spent.

Gold is worth whatever someone sells it for; correspondingly, how much flat money it takes to buy it is a measure of the relative value of the printed money used. It is one of the better international measures of relative value going.

When the yen floated in Japan, changing from 360 to the dollar to 125 or so, everything imported dropped in price by two-thirds in Japan -- what used to cost them 360 yen dropped to 125 yen. Conversely, what they exported suddenly tripled in cost since the yen was worth 3 times as much based on the price of gold.

What's that mean? That was in 1973 or 74. Japanese cars suddenly doubled in price here. Some here might recall it -- I sure do. [It only doubled because the Japanese gov't ate the rest of the loss.] American cars very nearly doubled in price at the same time [corporate greed]. When cars went up, everything else followed shortly thereafter. So the rampant inflation wasn't ALL Carter's fault.

The impact within Japan -- who imports essentially everything -- was dramatic and drastic to say the least. They became a world financial and industrial powerhouse.

Now it is the dollar's turn to change in value; but we have the opposite problem -- everything WE import will RAISE is cost not drop. Everything we export costs less -- problem the only thing we have to export anymore is grain and wood...raising the cost of it here.

It is more complicated than that, of course...and I am no international financier by any means. I only explain what I experienced. I happened to be in Japan at the time. Business people there stopped taking US Dollars immediately -- it became yen only.

November 25, 2009 at 11:18 a.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova, head firmly in sand (or somewhere else), wrote: "First of all, there is absolutely no advantage to be gained by any politician, or group of politicians, in "wrecking" health care coverage for "85% of Americans" whom you claim are content with their health care coverage. There will be no advantage gained if they fail to produce health care reforms that do nothing to actually reform our system of health care."

Yes there is...more power, more control and more votes from the nearly 50% of those who pay no federal taxes but love it when the government sticks it to the ones who do.

"Hilarious, outrageous, and ludicrous, can only describe the claims that our legislators and the current Administration are attempting to take over health care or any other private enterprise. No one is, or has to date, attempted to seize control of any private enterprise."

And the blind played on. The unforatunate thing is that you and so many others consider what's happening hilarious. The Democratic leadership is very content to throw over any number of their seats to the Republicans if it means wresting control of the health care industry away from the private sector and create an even larger number number of the populace dependent on the government. Ignore it, deny it, keep your "I can't hear you" attitude.... it's happening right before your eyes and your lamestream media is complicit.

The auto industry asked for financial assistance, not to be taken over. Instead, Obama arrogantly fires a CEO who didn't even work for or report to him, rams two companies through a bankruptcy that strips investors of their legally/contractually guaranteed position, then turns a major chunk of GM over to one of his big supporters, the UAW. But you say there's no evidence of anyone trying to seize control of any private enterprise. Riiiight.

In facism, control doesn't imply ownership.... Cap & Trade will give the government control over so many facets of how we live, it is anything but hilarious.

There are none so blind as those who will not see. Perhaps you could use a seeing eye dog.

November 25, 2009 at 11:28 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "What is the current population of the United States, alprova. "Hundreds of millions" is correct. Bankrupt this country and you bankrupt every one of them. Get your head together, stay off the medicinal pot, and think before you write."

This country is not headed for bankrupty, Mr. Chicken Little. It's nice that you clarified your statement, but it's still laughable and without any merit whatsoever.

"My, my. Such sour grapes, alprova. So you blame me for your poor life-decisions and those who chose poverty and welfare-for-life. My, my.

And if you think the taxes and fees to run this abortion of a health care system will end with the rich, I have this bridge for sale...cheap...you will love it. It is certified by the DNC."

I don't blame you for anything. Thank you for your concern, but my life is fine, and I have been very blessed, despite setbacks in my life that most certainly were not due to any poor decisions that I made.

I do consider you a total hypocrite and a current drain on the resources of this nation, only because you seem apply a completely separate standard to yourself when you refer to others, which is rather typical of those with Conservative/Republican mindsets. You Sir, have perfected it so well, that it takes on an artistic glow.

November 25, 2009 at 11:48 a.m.
alprova said...

Lightnup wrote: "Yes there is...more power, more control and more votes from the nearly 50% of those who pay no federal taxes but love it when the government sticks it to the ones who do."

What an amazingly unoriginal statement. It deserves no response.

"The auto industry asked for financial assistance, not to be taken over. Instead, Obama arrogantly fires a CEO who didn't even work for or report to him, rams two companies through a bankruptcy that strips investors of their legally/contractually guaranteed position, then turns a major chunk of GM over to one of his big supporters, the UAW. But you say there's no evidence of anyone trying to seize control of any private enterprise. Riiiight."

I think if you will look it up, Wagoner resigned and was paid $20 million to do so. It was very clear that Wagoner did not take the stipulations to heart that were handed out when they were awarded the first chunk of bailout cash, which I am sure, is why he was asked to resign.

Bottom line, Chrysler was sold. GM is not under the thumb of the Government and is planning to pay back the cash that the Obama Administration loaned them. The cash given to them by the Bush Administration will never be paid back.

You can stand there and criticize the situation until your face turns dark blue, but the fact of the matter is that as it turns out, tens of thousands of Americans still have their jobs, and two companies were salvaged. This is infinitely a far better outcome than what would have been the case, had they been dissected in bankruptcy court.

The UAW, for all their faults, is assisting management in pointing the company in the right direction, so what beef could you possible have at this point, given that GM is well on the road to recovery? None.

"In facism, control doesn't imply ownership.... Cap & Trade will give the government control over so many facets of how we live, it is anything but hilarious."

Another totally exaggerated and oft repeated stance, and predictable of course. You people will not be compelled to do anything at all in regard to shifting this nation away from filthy sources of energy, until the last drop of oil or the last lump of coal has been burned.

This is why people have shoved your kind of thinking aside and have taken the reigns from you, to get the job done that has needed to be done for decades.

November 25, 2009 at 12:16 p.m.
Oz said...

GM is well on the road to recovery? GM lost 1.2 billion dollars in the first 83 days after emerging from bankruptcy.

I guess you think the stimulus is working too?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/16/AR2009111600919.html

November 25, 2009 at 7:46 p.m.
rolando said...

alprova belched: "This country is not headed for bankrupty, Mr. Chicken Little."

Nor did I say it is...not yet. Our dollar hasn't been sold short...yet. Our income has not been seized as taxes...yet. So maybe we won't...I hope not.


Then alprova pooted, saying: "I don't blame you for anything."

Well, I was being generous. The word should have been "detest". Liberals detest those who work[ed] for what they had and invested well, because it makes them free of dependence on the government for anything. I, sir, damn well earned every dollar I received in the 40 years I spent saving your backside and those who think as you do. Good thing there are ten Americans who actually thank and appreciate our military and our law enforcement people for every one like you. Those people are expected -- and often DO -- give their lives for you and your like-thinkers since you happen to be on the fringes of what they love. That is THEIR wages they deposit into a retirement account, not yours or anyone elses...sometimes the "wages" are not immediately tangible, but they are there nonetheless.

So go suck on your sour grapes.

November 25, 2009 at 8:21 p.m.
rolando said...

Just in case someone may have skipped this snippet taken from Oz's citation, I provide:

"The plan to repay the U.S. government loan does not cover all of the vast sums that the United States has invested in [GM], however.

"How much the government will receive on its investment depends on GM's eventual stock value. A public offering of stock in the reorganized company is not expected until the second half of next year, at the earliest.

"A Government Accountability Office report last month said it was unlikely that the United States would recover its investment." [Change is mine for clarification. -rolando]

November 25, 2009 at 8:24 p.m.
rolando said...

Here is a snippet from Bloomberg.com's financial section re: India's gold purchase. [They are going to do it again. See the last sentence for a wake-up call.]

"Nov. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Gold climbed to the highest price ever, capping the longest rally in 27 years, as the dollar’s slump deepened and on a report that India’s central bank may add to last month’s 200 metric-ton purchase.

"Gold reached a record $1,189 an ounce and has rallied 13 percent since Nov. 2, after India said it bought bullion from the International Monetary Fund. The country, the world’s largest gold consumer, may buy more from the IMF, the Financial Chronicle reported. U.S. Dollar Index, a six-currency gauge of the greenback’s strength, fell to a 15-month low.

“There is a lot of central-bank buying, hedge-fund buying and gold is obviously getting to $1,200 an ounce before the end of the year,” David Lee, a trader at Heraeus Precious Metals Management in New York, said in a telephone interview. The metal has climbed 34 percent this year, heading for the sharpest annual increase since 1979."

That means if you had bought gold last January, you would now show a 34% profit...not bad for a Depression year. 'Course it won't buy much these days...unless you traded the gold for euros.

November 25, 2009 at 8:41 p.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova wrote: "This country is not headed for bankrupty, Mr. Chicken Little. It's nice that you clarified your statement, but it's still laughable and without any merit whatsoever."

$1.4 Trillion annual deficit, $13 Trillion debt, a Medicare program with a HUGE unfunded indebtedness, a Social Security program that will be totally out of money in the next decade, a massive new entitlement program being debated right now and you have the hutzpah to say we are not headed for bankruptcy? And you're an accountant? OMG, I don't know whether to laugh or call the authorities in to protect whatever clients you may have from such ignorance of what causes bankruptcy.

November 25, 2009 at 9:27 p.m.
alprova said...

Oz opined: "GM is well on the road to recovery? GM lost 1.2 billion dollars in the first 83 days after emerging from bankruptcy."

And?

There's more to the picture than what you dropped. Their revenue during the same period was $28 billion. That was a jump of more than $4.9 billion from the third quarter when they were working on a plan to emerge from bankruptcy. Most of their sales were in China and Brazil.

GM announced intentions to begin making payments totalling $2.5 billion in the next quarter to repay loans given to them by the United States, Canada, Ontario and Germany. In fact, they have offered that they will be able to pay off the loans three to fours years ahead of schedule.

"I guess you think the stimulus is working too?"

Yep. But then, I knew that it was going to take a couple of years for the effects to kick in, unlike some of you fine folks, who expect miracles overnight.

When President Obama took office, I was gainfully unemployed. Six months later, poof!!, I am in business again. Last Saturday, I was able to trade in one of my clunkers for a slightly used Jeep...and I paid cash for it.

My wife received a buck and a half hour raise and is now pulling down commissions on top of that for selling medical insurance.

Life's pretty doggone good for me these days.

The best part is yet to come. Come this February, I will know the amount that I will have to write Uncle Sam to pay our income taxes. I know that I will be writing a much higher check than I have for the past few years, because our income has jumped substantially.

Now I don't know if the stimulus package had anything to do with it, but I'm sure in a much better place than I was a year ago, that's for sure.

So maybe you're asking the wrong person that question.

I'm thrilled to no end to be where I am at the moment, and the only way for me, God willing, is up.

I'm very thankful this Thanksgiving for the blessings that I have received since President Obama took office. He's the man!!

My wish for everyone who reads this, is that they find something to be thankful for too.

But...I digress.

November 25, 2009 at 10:13 p.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova wrote: "What an amazingly unoriginal statement."

What an amazingly shallow response. I now understand why you said you don't care about ancient history, since your measure of whether something is true or not rests merely on its originality.

"I think if you will look it up, Wagoner resigned and was paid $20 million to do so."

Wagoner was forced out of his job. Period. He had no intention of leaving but was given no other choice by the instant expert on operatinge world-wide manufacturing companies, Barack "I have all the answers" Obama.

"The UAW, for all their faults, is assisting management in pointing the company in the right direction, so what beef could you possible have at this point, given that GM is well on the road to recovery?"

GM will be going through another bankruptcy within 24 months and the UAW will be a major factor in GM not being able to compete, just as they have been for decades. Road to recovery? Hardly? Let me know when you load up on GM stock to make your fortune on this recovery.

alprova wrote" [Cap and trade giving the govenment much increased control over many aspects of American life] is "another totally exaggerated and oft repeated stance, and predictable of course."

Once again, this silly belief that something can't be true if it has been said more than once. Some things are oft-repeated because they 1.) are true, and 2.) need to be repeated until the slower people finally comprehend them. It's clear that some people are just slower than others.

"This is why people have shoved your kind of thinking aside and have taken the reigns from you, to get the job done that has needed to be done for decades."

Just keep thinking that way, it will make the anguish that much greater for you when the Democrats lose their seats in droves in the upcoming mid-term elections.

November 25, 2009 at 10:29 p.m.
alprova said...

Rolando passed wind with: "Liberals detest those who work[ed] for what they had and invested well, because it makes them free of dependence on the government for anything. I, sir, damn well earned every dollar I received in the 40 years I spent saving your backside and those who think as you do."

By all means, don't be so modest. Why not demand that I kiss your shiny combat boots because you spent time in the military.

During many of those years you were serving, I was writing checks to the Government on a weekly, quarterly, and yearly basis, that helped the Government pay your salary, so you don't get the gold key to the latrine by default, just because you served this country. I served this nation as well by being a dutiful taxpayer.

"Good thing there are ten Americans who actually thank and appreciate our military and our law enforcement people for every one like you."

There ya' go again. You think you have me pegged. You don't and you can't. And I'm not about to spend any time at all explaining myself to you or refuting a thing you think.

I don't like YOU because you're a hypocritical, typo-turd dropping jerk. It doesn't matter to me at all what you did for a living.

"So go suck on your sour grapes."

I might just do that. Because any old grape sure tastes better than a couple of dangling tea bags.

Shame on me.

November 25, 2009 at 10:37 p.m.
Clara said...

Oh, for Pete's sake!

Oz gave the following Washington Post URL of Nov. 17th with the screaming headline...

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con...

I'd advise my fellow bloggers to ignore the extracted paragraphs and read the 2 pages for yourselves and draw your own conclusions.

The article was much more balanced than the headline and the out of context offerings by R&L.

November 25, 2009 at 11:09 p.m.
alprova said...

Lightnup pecked on his keyboard: "What an amazingly shallow response."

That claim you made is very unoriginal and in no manner could you begin to back it up. It's repetitive garbage that has been spewed in response to any proposal ever placed on the table that threatens to distribute Government collected funds for any social program.

The ONLY social program that passed the smell test of the Republicans was the Medicare Reform Act, adding Part "D", which came with the infamous "donut hole," responsible for causing more seniors in this nation to be put in the ground long before their time, than for any other reason on this earth.

If I had a dollar for every night that my wife came home crying because she took a call, or ten on some days, from someone who discovered that they would have to choose between paying full price for their maintenance medications or buying food, due to that donut hole, I'd be as rich as Bill Gates.

It's not about power. It's about helping people.

"Wagoner was forced out of his job. Period. He had no intention of leaving but was given no other choice by the instant expert on operatinge world-wide manufacturing companies, Barack "I have all the answers" Obama."

He had no intention of salvaging the company either. He blamed the unions all the way. He failed to provide a plan for bailing water out of his sinking ship.

And no matter how you spin it, the fact is the man was paid $20 million to resign. That's hardly being "fired" and put out on the street like the workers would have been, had GM went completely under. I suppose you think he should have had been awarded a much more lucrative severance package. What's the going rate for failure these days? $50 million?

"GM will be going through another bankruptcy within 24 months and the UAW will be a major factor in GM not being able to compete, just as they have been for decades. Road to recovery? Hardly? Let me know when you load up on GM stock to make your fortune on this recovery."

Well, I'll tell you what...Stock offerings in the restructured GM will commence sometime after March of next year, and I will be one of the first to be buying those shares. It's a ground floor investment opportunity.

"Once again, this silly belief that something can't be true if it has been said more than once. Some things are oft-repeated because they 1.) are true, and 2.) need to be repeated until the slower people finally comprehend them."

...or 3.) a lie told often enough by someone eventually appears to be true, even when evidence to the contrary clearly denounces it as anything but the truth.

Have you ever actually studied the Cap & Trade proposal? It's not complicated at all. In fact, here's a link to a very short and simple article that explains it in terms that even a Conservative/Republican can understand.

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tech-transport/cap-trade-explained-short.html

November 25, 2009 at 11:51 p.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova, have you ever actually studied the reality of the Cap & trade proposal. Not the touchy-feely, we care, save the earth hoax, but the real impact on real people?

It's something that, with extra effort, even a Democrat/Liberal could understand - but will still deny, of course because it's not original.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html

November 26, 2009 at 8:01 a.m.
rolando said...

Yeah, alprova; those who stay home protect the country too. Yeah, right.

But thanks for all the fish...er-r-r, bucks. I enjoy spending them. At least I earned them honorably if you even know the meaning of the word. You DO seem to know the meaning of "tea-bags" though. From staring open-mouthed in awe [at the TEA Partiers], no doubt.

As I said, liberals detest those who are not beholden to and dependent upon the federal government.

Yeah, shame on you.

November 26, 2009 at 8:42 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote:

"Yeah, alprova; those who stay home protect the country too. Yeah, right."

Look, you've as much as admitted that you have never been on the battlefield, so let's not get holier than thou.

I stated that I SERVED my country as a taxpayer. I did not state that I "protected" anyone. But make no mistake, if a threat ever presented itself to THIS nation AND our soil, I would certainly have no reservation whatsoever in taking up arms against an enemy, even if I had to hobble on on leg to do it.

"But thanks for all the fish...er-r-r, bucks. I enjoy spending them. At least I earned them honorably if you even know the meaning of the word."

Of course I know the meaning of the word. I've lived it my entire life. Honor is not limited strictly to those who don a uniform with stripes on it.

"You DO seem to know the meaning of "tea-bags" though. From staring open-mouthed in awe [at the TEA Partiers], no doubt."

Actually, my mouth is open due to uncontrollable laughter. Teabaggers are funny.

"As I said, liberals detest those who are not beholden to and dependent upon the federal government."

Well Sir, I'm quite liberal these days, and contrary to your silly belief, I am not "beholden to and dependent upon the Federal Government."

But YOU ARE, right down to the extremely inexpensive health care benefits provided you at the expense of the taxpayers of this nation. That right there is what makes you the complete hypocrite that I accuse you of being, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the health care issue.

You'll sit there and put down any person who would dare ask for a thing from the Government, and at the same time overlook that the simple fact that you, yourself are one of those people who is totally dependent on the Government.

What makes you any better than someone else who puts in 40 years on a job, but who has no benefits or a pension when their working days are over? 312 million people cannot ALL work for the Government.

Rather than to count your blessings and to be appreciative for the life you have, you sit around and belittle others and continuously condemn the very Government that has provided you the means to live your life.

On the day that you retired, you became a burden to the taxpayers of this nation. Like it...don't like it...who cares how YOU see it?

Always remember something Rolando. When you point your finger and someone, there are always four more pointing right back at you.

Be careful that one day, you don't poke your eye out.

November 26, 2009 at 9:21 a.m.
rolando said...

alprova said: "...let's not get holier than thou."

So how long were YOU expected to give up your life? I thought so...liberals seldom do that, being too tied up in themselves and their comfort...which is why so few military are liberals.

THAT makes me holier than thou, at least in terms of caring for others to the extent of being literally willing to die for them. So go on ranting, beancounter.

"...I SERVED my country as a taxpayer."

In the early days, a man could send another person to fight on his behalf or he could pay cash to avoid military duty. Today its called "being a taxpayer". Words are easy, deeds harder -- and impossible for some.

"Teabaggers are funny."

And you know because...?

"I'm quite liberal these days...I am not beholden to and dependent upon the Federal Government."

It is only other people that liberals detest for their lack of dependence, not themselves -- whom they see as one of the elite.

"...the extremely inexpensive health care benefits provided you at the expense of the taxpayers..."

And therein lies the center of your envy and your enmity. Those honored dead in our National Cemetery and their loved ones feel differently; although their burial and survivor benefits ARE at taxpayer expense.

So cheaply you value the life of those who work for a living instead of going on the dole for life. Typical Liberal.

The retirement, the health benefits, are part of the pay.

You undoubtedly would be a much happier beancounter if we all died upon retirement, thereby saving the taxpayers from their day of reckoning for all the protection they received.

"What makes you any better than someone else who puts in 40 years on a job?"

Making better life-decisions, longer term planning, and thinking of tomorrow instead of today does it for me.

That rankles, doesn't it? Eat your heart out, beancounter.

I would also add that it is the government that is financially indebted to me, not the other way around. All those promises for no-cost life-long health care, you see.

And if you and Dear Leader have your socialized way, all those millions of people WILL be working for the government, one way or another.

"On the day that you retired, you became a burden to the taxpayers of this nation."

Interesting view you have of our retired and, by extension, disabled veterans. "Burdens". Hm-m-m. Bet you are a eugenicist, too...

November 26, 2009 at 11:17 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "...And therein lies the center of your envy and your enmity. Those honored dead in our National Cemetery and their loved ones feel differently; although their burial and survivor benefits ARE at taxpayer expense."

You know doggone well that I am in no way referring to those brave souls who have made the ultimate sacrifice.

YOU Sir, are the person to whom my opinion is directed, and it is in direct response to YOUR stances taken regarding others.

Deflecting and attempting to attribute my opinion of YOU onto those who DID see combat or DID die in combat is a cheap shot and quite typical of your ability to focus on the subject at hand, and an idiot can see right through it.

"So cheaply you value the life of those who work for a living instead of going on the dole for life. Typical Liberal."

When have I EVER defended anyone who would "go on the dole," who is able to work for a living? I haven't. And again, those who read and participate in this forum on a regular basis know it.

Can you argue ANY point without resorting to lying? Have you no honor Sir?

"The retirement, the health benefits, are part of the pay."

So what? Shouldn't anyone and everyone who devotes a pre-determined amount of time on a job be entitled to the same? Or is it only reserved for people like you, who feel that they are always superior to others?

"You undoubtedly would be a much happier beancounter if we all died upon retirement, thereby saving the taxpayers from their day of reckoning for all the protection they received."

No Sir. That is a Republican ideology and platform plank. It's why they have a hand in legislation every time, when the qualifying age for Social Security is raised to reduce the chance that most will never receive a full return on what they paid to the system during their working years.

November 26, 2009 at 1:21 p.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova wrore: But make no mistake, if a threat ever presented itself to THIS nation AND our soil, I would certainly have no reservation whatsoever in taking up arms against an enemy, even if I had to hobble on on leg to do it."

I highly doubt it, you can't even recognize the current threat. The invasion would be over before you'd see any reason to react.

November 26, 2009 at 4:44 p.m.
rolando said...

alprova said, "You know doggone well that I am in no way referring to those brave souls who have made the ultimate sacrifice.

"YOU Sir, are the person to whom my opinion is directed, and it is in direct response to YOUR stances taken regarding others."

Funny thing about military men and women, alprova. You denigrate one of us, you spit on us all -- the living AND the dead.

The topics under discussion are military and civil service retirements and continuing health care and whether or not we are "burdens", as you call us. My "stances toward others" are irrelevant to those topics.

"Or [are retirement and health benefits] only reserved for people like you, who feel that they are always superior to others?"

If you can find someone willing to legally work or stand duty 24/7, live in a tent in 120 degree heat and higher or stand guard on a windblown flight line in 40 below zero temps, etc, all for a mere pittance [and pay taxes on it], just so they can have those lifelong bennies added on to that pay, then why not? Oh yeah, almost forgot...with people shooting at them. Good luck with that. [Somehow we find those guys, God knows how.]

"That is a Republican ideology and platform plank."

Neither conservatives nor Republicans call our retired or disabled veterans a "burden" to taxpayers upon retirement. But YOU did.

"When have I EVER defended anyone who would "go on the dole," who is able to work for a living? I haven't."

Every time you rant for universal health care you defend them. Every time you speak out in favor of illegal aliens you defend them.

So...ARE you a eugenicist?

November 26, 2009 at 6:04 p.m.
alprova said...

Lightnup wrote: "I highly doubt it, you can't even recognize the current threat. The invasion would be over before you'd see any reason to react."

Please...entertain me with your perception of the 'current threat' that I am failing to recognize, Mr. Poopy Pants.

I hope you're not going to embarrass yourself by attempting to float the silly and rhetorical notion that by fighting them over there, that we are safe and sound here.

Anyone at all who has any desire to do any harm to any of our citizens, can do it with no problem at all. They are already in this country, or can be here overnight. They can fly in on one of our jets, they can arrive by ship, or they can simply drive or walk across our northern or southern borders.

Or, were you perhaps referring to some other mythical threat that you forever seem to be fond of?

November 26, 2009 at 6:55 p.m.
rolando said...

Mr Poopy Pants!! Take THAT Lightnup!

Oh, my sides hurt from laughing.

Mr Poopy Pants...oh my.

November 26, 2009 at 8:32 p.m.
Lightnup said...

I rest my case.

November 26, 2009 at 9:15 p.m.
alprova said...

Roland wrote: "Funny thing about military men and women, alprova. You denigrate one of us, you spit on us all -- the living AND the dead."

So much for the concept of individualism. Kinda sounds like a union thing to me.

"The topics under discussion are military and civil service retirements and continuing health care and whether or not we are "burdens", as you call us. My "stances toward others" are irrelevant to those topics."

No it's not. You have yours, written and provided by the Government, but to heck with anyone out there who doesn't.

You're a hypocrite.

"If you can find someone willing to legally work or stand duty 24/7, live in a tent in 120 degree heat and higher or stand guard on a windblown flight line in 40 below zero temps, etc, all for a mere pittance [and pay taxes on it], just so they can have those lifelong bennies added on to that pay, then why not? Oh yeah, almost forgot...with people shooting at them. Good luck with that. [Somehow we find those guys, God knows how.]"

But again Sir, you are not one of those people, by your own admission. You offer all of this, as if I am against compensating the brave men and women who enter the armed forces, and not one time have I ever made such a statement.

Focus on the fact that I take issue with YOUR attitude and your disregard for others and their circumstances. Again, you have yours, but no one else is entitled to health care if they are unable to afford it or if they have been denied it.

"Neither conservatives nor Republicans call our retired or disabled veterans a "burden" to taxpayers upon retirement. But YOU did."

Really? Cite the sentence I wrote that proves it.

"Every time you rant for universal health care you defend them. Every time you speak out in favor of illegal aliens you defend them."

Mr. Potato Head, my concern has always been for the working Americans in this nation who have been victimized by the health care system of this nation. I have never advocated doing a thing for any person who refuses to work or contribute to society, if they are ABLE to do so.

I have no problem with the illegal aliens and I never will. Because contrary to your silly assertions, they contribute to our society and to our economy. Most of them overpay on their taxes, because they do not file for a refund.

Like it or don't. Those are irrefutable facts, and very much why the Federal Government has not taken any action to remove them from our soil.

November 27, 2009 at 2:01 a.m.
rolando said...

alprova said, "Kinda sounds like a union thing to me."

No one expects you to recognize esprit de corp nor to understand camaraderie, either.

"...you are not one of those people, by your own admission. You offer all of this, as if I am against compensating the brave men and women who enter the armed forces, and not one time have I ever made such a statement."

You are a hoot, alprova. Of course you are against our military people and paying them a fair wage. It fairly drips from your posts. You even call us "a burden upon the taxpayers" [gottcha on that one]. You then, without basis, claim I am not one of them when you know nothing of it. And with that last phrase, you also identify yourself as a liar; you resent them their due pay. Yes, I use the plural because I AM one of them.

Your envy, enmity, and pure meanness toward fair pay and promise-keeping for our military services are a credit to the DNC and your political views. You are even blind to your envy, enmity, etc.

But you are only a beancounter, after all...the self-sworn enemy of our armed forces; we expect little of you.

"Cite the sentence I wrote that proves [I didn't call retired military 'a burdan']."

So you are one of those who deletes past posts, huh? Somehow that doesn't surprise me.


alprova, you act as though the government grudgingly doles out retirement out of the goodness of its heart.

First of all, .gov doesn't have a heart. Second, retpay is a debt owed our servicemen and women for years of self-sacrifice...it is a deferred part of their wages. Finally, the fed.gov pays it but only grudgingly. Fed.gov is full of beancounters, too.

You are a typical Liberal, alprova -- avoid years of dedicated work then put your hand out when it comes time to get something.

You are just irked because you don't get any.

November 27, 2009 at 6:10 a.m.
rolando said...

First, "Mr Poopy Pants" then "Mr Potato Head". I finally realized the calibre and mentality or the person with whom I am dealing. My prior would have been my last address on this topic to such a person, alprova, but your parting shot last time cannot be allowed to remain without challenge.

You said, "I have no problem with the illegal aliens and I never will. Because contrary to your silly assertions, they contribute to our society and to our economy. Most of them overpay on their taxes, because they do not file for a refund."

Strange a beancounter cannot recognize that workers must have a Social Security Account Number before they can pay taxes. Illegals are, by definition, unable to get an SSAN so they illegally use someone else's. Fine upstanding people you support; they begin their new life here illegally and stay that way. We don't need that kind of "contribution to our society".

And the real reason you and other Democrats support them is because you think they will [again illegally] vote Democrat in appreciation. Bread and circuses.

Perhaps it is not so strange you cannot recognize any of this...liberals are blind to the results of most of their actions.

Have a nice day.

"Mr Pooty Pants/Potato Head", indeed.

November 27, 2009 at 6:28 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando charged: "So you are one of those who deletes past posts, huh? Somehow that doesn't surprise me."

None of my posts have disappeared. They are all there. What a wonderful way to attempt to dodge a challenge to prove an accusation. "You deleted your post." It wouldn't be so funny if it were not for the fact that no one can delete any of their posts once they are submitted.

"You are a typical Liberal, alprova -- avoid years of dedicated work then put your hand out when it comes time to get something."

Nope...Sorry...you don't get to write me off so easily. I've worked since I was 16 years of age. I know without any doubt whatsoever that I have paid more in various taxes to the Federal Government over my working years than you have drawn in pay, retirement, and medical care costs combined.

The only thing typical here, is your inability to recognize the fact that because you are totally dependent on the Government for everything you have, you have no dog in this hunt. You are a product OF the Government.

"You are just irked because you don't get any."

What a childish remark. Grow up.

"Strange a beancounter cannot recognize that workers must have a Social Security Account Number before they can pay taxes. Illegals are, by definition, unable to get an SSAN so they illegally use someone else's. Fine upstanding people you support; they begin their new life here illegally and stay that way. We don't need that kind of "contribution to our society".

And of course, that's all you see. You ignore the more humane aspect of the situation. They are merely attempting to provide a living for themselves and their loved ones.

You're very concerned about man-made and imposed laws.

WWJD?

November 27, 2009 at 9:31 a.m.
Lightnup said...

aprova wrote:"I have no problem with the illegal aliens and I never will. Because contrary to your silly assertions, they contribute to our society and to our economy."

How nice, it's okay to break into alprova's house (that's called illegal, in case alprova missed it) and take the money that was intended to go to his wife, a legal resident of the house, just so long as you contribute by cleaning the bathroom or sweeping the kitchen floor before you go. How nice....how stupid.

It's okay to steal alprova's new (to him) Jeep, even though it's intended to be used only by the legal residents of his house, just as long as you put gas in it before joy riding, thereby contributing to the economy.

It's okay to be a drug dealer, a mafia member and a credit card scammer, becuase purchasing those Lexus and Mercedes and all the bling contributes to the economy.

alprova should approve of waterboarding, it contibutes to the safety of our society.

alprova picks and chooses which laws are okay for him and which ones aren't. How nice to have that luxury.

from dictionary.com: "illegal - 1. forbidden by law or statute. 2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc."

Nowhere does it say, "unless there is contribution, thereby negating any illegality."

November 27, 2009 at 10:49 a.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova once again spits forth a jewel: "They are merely attempting to provide a living for themselves and their loved ones."

Which is true of 99% of those in jail for armed robbery, burglary, shoplifting, breaking and entering, bank robbery, mail fraud, etc., etc.

WWJD? He'd remind people that "Thou shall not steal..including other people's social sceurity numbers and identity. He's say, "Thou shall not bear false witness by lying about your status." He'd say "Do the right thing...apply to enter the U.S. legally." It's pretty clear which side Big J would be on.

November 27, 2009 at 10:58 a.m.

I find it interesting how the "Progressives" quote "what would Jesus do" when it suits their attacks and denigrates Bible-believing Christians the rest of the time, as well as supporting policies that undermine our laws, our country and our culture on a daily basis. (see policies instituted and influenced by The White House, ACORN, La Raza, ULAC, Moveon, Hispanic Media Coalition, Progressive Freedom Coalition-read American Communist Party, United Church of Christ-what a misnomer if ever there was one-funded by Georges Soros and Obama's old church, etc. etc.)

Many of us spent some years in states and countries that are decimated by illegal immigration, where the prisons are full (30% +) of gangs, MS13, Islamic terrorists and the Mexican Mafia. Some contribution, sheesh. I also have many friends from all over the world, including Spanish speaking countries who came here legally and work hard to better their lives, they completely disagree with those who choose to come illegally across the borders of a sovereign nation. They KNOW what would happen to any of us if we sneaked into a sovereign nation illegally and willfully disobeyed their laws.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving, Rolando and Lightnup. If any do, you guys know exactly what we all should be grateful for <@ ##

November 27, 2009 at 11:14 a.m.

Here's a quote about liberal/left/progressives I read recently and agree with as the evidence is overwhelming everyday:

"One cannot understand the left if one does not appreciate the world of dogmas in which most left-wingers live. What the monastery is to monks, the university and the mainstream media are to the left. That is the only way to explain the left's belief that government-run healthcare, having government take over so much more of society, raising taxes yet again, expanding government even more and increasing the number of people employed by the government will all be good for America. Dogma explains why it is useless to point out to the left how the left has economically crippled California...none of these facts matter because dogmas are not derived from facts..in addition to dogma the left relies for its policies on "hope", which it often substitutes for analysis.

People on the left rarely vote based on reality...The right doesn't have "hope" candidates because conservatives don't live on "hope". They live in reality,...Frankly, I don't yearn for what is unseen. Rather, having a realistic understanding of the limitations of human beings, I am in awe of what I already see-the unique American achievement of affluence, liberty, decency,opportunity and medical innovations. And I see all this being squandered for the sake of left-wing dogma, left-wing hopes and left-wing dreams." (Dennis Prager 11/02/09)

November 27, 2009 at 11:18 a.m.
alprova said...

I was "hoping" that people would wise up and quit quoting the words of talk show hosts. It's not as if their opinions are any more valid than that of their faithful listeners. In fact, it quite often is apparent that the listeners are like parishioners.

I had to actually perform a Google search to find out who Dennis Prager was. That's how relevant he is to the world, outside of the conservative talk radio circuit anyway.

November 27, 2009 at 3:44 p.m.
Lightnup said...

Thanks for posting the Prager quote canary. It is spot on.

Boys and girls, what alprova did is called "deflection." When alprova can't refute a single thing that a person said, he instead tries to deflect attention to the simple fact that whoever said it is not a world famous celebrity with rock star status (like, say, our President or some other brilliant political mind like Joy Behar or Jeanine "I'm a total nutcase" Garafalo), so must not be qualified to have an opinion that differs from alprova's.

see, if it isn't either original or uttered by a celebrity, to alprova it's just not true. Even though he states his thoughts here as absolute fact and with unquestionable authority, that's okay because alprova is familiar with himself. But, if alprova does not know who someone is, nothing that other person says is allowed to be quoted, no matter how true it is.

I didn't know who Dennis Prager is either and it really doesn't matter. Heck, he could be a ditch digger or even worse, an accountant. He obviously has a very insightful, crystal clear handle on what the left is doing to this country.

November 27, 2009 at 5:21 p.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova wrote: "In fact, it quite often is apparent that the listeners are like parishioners."

Well, you can bet that these parishoners wouldn't listen to the same speaker for 20 years and then make the absurd claim that they didn't know how the speaker felt about important issues. If they thought is was wrong, they'd change speakers, something our President made no attmept to do during 20 years as a Reverend Wright parishoner. What a fraud.

November 27, 2009 at 5:28 p.m.
alprova said...

Lightnup opined with: "alprova picks and chooses which laws are okay for him and which ones aren't. How nice to have that luxury."

Have you ever driven faster than the posted speed limit? Have you ever failed to come to a complete stop at a stop sign? Have you ever imbibed alcohol and then drove home?

Have you EVER smoked dope? Have you ever jaywalked? Have you ever downloaded pirated software, music, or movies?

I'm quite sure that if you put ten minutes of thought into it, you could probably remember dozens of times that you broke societal or even perhaps criminal laws on the books. Your reason for doing so would have been your own.

People come to this nation seeking to better their lives strictly out of desperation. You can't begin to imagine or to admire the bravery that comes with that kind of decision.

Instead, you're objections are focused on a point of law, put in place very much like one of a more private nature, and meant to exclude commoners from a country club.

The "stealing" of Social Security numbers is not an act of "theft." Most of the time, the number is made up off the top of someone's head, taxes are dumped into that "account," and the inconvenience is rather minor, when one's tax return is kicked back due to any discrepancy in reported income and taxes paid in to that SSN.

Are there instances of criminal activity committed by illegals, outside of their being inside the country illegitimately? Sure there are. Are they comparable in percentages to those of our own, domestically born citizens? Not even close.

I know that all of this is falling on deaf ears, and so be it.

Republican/Conservatives are not known for their compassion, their tolerance, or their regard for human life, unless it is an embryo.

So I'll not be wasting any more time typing what will never be considered for a second, or that will never begin to register in your brain.

November 28, 2009 at 3:12 a.m.
alprova said...

Do you know WHY I do not take any time to address tripe such as that?

Because you people are still stuck in campaign mode. You're retrying the same evidence that was offered when the man was running for President.

It wasn't relevant, applicable, or accepted then and it sure isn't now.

The people of this nation voted and you people who were opposed to his candidacy lost. To continue to spout that inane garbage about the man is worse than pathetic. It was given all the due attention it deserved and it was rejected.

But please, by all means...keep it up.

It will accomplish as much now and in the future as it did last year.

Republicans are going to have to come up with a new gig or they are gonna lose some more ground. If the economy turns around in the coming months, it won't matter what they try to do.

November 28, 2009 at 3:28 a.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova came up with absolutely indefensible stuff: "People come to this nation seeking to better their lives strictly out of desperation. You can't begin to imagine or to admire the bravery that comes with that kind of decision."

People usually rob banks to better their lives strictly out of desperation. That's ILLEGAL, not brave. Only a liberal would confuse the act of selfishly taking something you are not entitled to with doing something brave.

This country has enough LEGAL citizens trying to better their lives strictly out of desperation (not counting all those who expect the government to better their lives for them). There would not be as many of those were it not for the ever increasing resource-sucking, job-sucking illegal element. Every single person who circumvents the legal process for entering this country negatively affects the ability of our legal residents to improve their situation.

"Instead, you're objections are focused on a point of law, put in place very much like one of a more private nature, and meant to exclude commoners from a country club."

Do the words "sovereign nation" not mean anything to you? How about "border" or "citizenship." You don't want health insurance sold across state lines because you want each state's own laws to apply to its own citizens, but you have no regard for our own country's law when it comes to the citizens within its borders?

This isn't a country club, it's a country. A country whose border states have massive financial problems caused by large illegal alien populations. California is a primary example. Their situation is America's future if this illehal alien situation isn't turned around. California just decided arbitrarily to withhold an additional 10% from California resident's paychecks, to be returned next April. Can you imagine how many more people that is going to push over the edge to bankruptcy?

How much is enough for you? Between the 10% additional arbitrary withholding, the lapse of the current 5% tax cuts and the Pelosi/Reid 5% tax on the rich - most of whom are small businesses, that's an increae of TWENTY percent in taxes. How much is enough? 50%? 70%? That's NOT the government's money, it's YOUR money and MY money!

"So I'll not be wasting any more time typing what will never be considered for a second, or that will never begin to register in your brain."

I'm glad you won't be wasting any more time writing such gibberish because it is nothing but fictional and none of it is defensible. Make sure you leave your keys in your car tonight and don't lock your house when you leave...might as well make it easy on the "brave" people to steal from you and your family.

November 28, 2009 at 8:42 a.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova, again: "The people of this nation voted and you people who were opposed to his candidacy lost. To continue to spout that inane garbage about the man is worse than pathetic. It was given all the due attention it deserved and it was rejected."

Unfortunately for you alprova, the rock star status and the "change you can believe in" hype has worn very thin, even people in the lamestream press (even Saturday Night Live) now recognize that what they supported and voted for is not what they got. Even dumb people (well, not all dumb people) see the light eventually. Enjoy living in your darkness, but your numbers are dwindling...quickly.

November 28, 2009 at 8:46 a.m.
alprova said...

Lightnup wrote: "People usually rob banks to better their lives strictly out of desperation. That's ILLEGAL, not brave. Only a liberal would confuse the act of selfishly taking something you are not entitled to with doing something brave."

Apples and oranges my friend. Your argument is weak and futile. Crossing a border is not "theft," and in no manner comparable to robbing a bank at the point of a gun.

"This country has enough LEGAL citizens trying to better their lives strictly out of desperation (not counting all those who expect the government to better their lives for them). There would not be as many of those were it not for the ever increasing resource-sucking, job-sucking illegal element."

How nice of you to bring that fact up. Just remember that the political party that you endorse and praise is largely responsible for the mess we are in at the moment. Their coddling of capitalism and the corporate thirst for greed and power, is the core reason why jobs have disappeared, why blighted businesses and empty industrial properties are all around us, and why there is such a climate of desperation at the moment.

"Do the words "sovereign nation" not mean anything to you?"

Nope. Sell that one to God. He created this Earth. We are his guests.

"You don't want health insurance sold across state lines..."

A completely separate issue and it has been discussed thoroughly.

"California is a primary example..."

California's financial problems not the result of illegal aliens. If it were, then Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico would be having similar financial issues, and they are not.

California is a victim of their own lawmakers and their extreme over-regulation. Yet they keep voting them in year after year.

Arnie's a Republican. He's been in office for several years now. What's up with his inability to get that state's budget under control? It's not the illegals causing it. They work for a living, and you know well that California is not going to fail in collecting their share of taxes from them too.

"Unfortunately for you alprova, the rock star status and the "change you can believe in" hype has worn very thin..."

Perhaps, and all that it will take for to apply a new coat of wax to restore the luster and shine, will be for the economy to rebound just a little, for a health care reform bill to be passed that is anything at all that the Republicans DON'T want it to be, and more importantly, if the jobs situation starts improving, which it will, the rest will take care of itself.

If the Republicans were smart, which they are not at the moment, they'd be introducing all kinds of legislation in response to all that ails America.

All I see them doing is sitting on their hands until a bill is introduced by the Democrats, then they take a break from sitting on those hands to raise them long enough to vote against it.

That's not very productive at all, now is it?

November 28, 2009 at 1:13 p.m.

It's hard to know where to begin or to refute such utter nonsense and ignorance, born I believe, from a dark mind and a life lived in a delusional state. And from reading/watching the most watered-down mush of opinions this country has seen in its entire history.

Alprova: "California's financial problems not the result of illegal aliens. If it were, then Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico would be having similar financial issues, and they are not." BUT that is not the truth. The financial problems are not equal across state lines, yet the criminal and societal problems are-they ARE a mightmare for those of us who have actually lived in it (reality).

"California is a victim of their own lawmakers and their extreme over-regulation. Yet they keep voting them in year after year." BUT, as anyone with open eyes who has lived years in CA knows, this state has been liberal-left run for decades out of Sacramento. The Pelosi's, Feinsteins, Boxer's, Gray Davis' etc. have run it into the ground with liberal policies such as allowing massive illegal immigration (to fuel the slavery mill of the rich and famous, you know the Oprahs, Barbara Streisands, Pulitzers, and of course the Schwarzenegger/Shriver duo et al).

I should know, I've had close contact with some of them through work. I know for a fact what hypocritical feudal lords many of them are. And they are all Liberals with a big L. They have absolutely NO compassion for the poor and downtrodden, hate to burst your bubble.

November 28, 2009 at 3:06 p.m.

Alprova : "Arnie's a Republican. He's been in office for several years now. What's up with his inability to get that state's budget under control? It's not the illegals causing it. They work for a living, and you know well that California is not going to fail in collecting their share of taxes from them too." BUT, you are totally wrong. Many do no work except to form gangs-under their parents watchful tutelage or apathy, many do NOT pay taxes or Clinical/ER costs when they're treated for free, and something many of you may not know. Big ole strong Arnold is intimidated by tiny ole Maria, you know the liberal-left Kennedy clan member.

He is a true RINO, he, like many wealthy Repubs only support the RNC Party because they are WEALTHY business people and know conservative fiscal policies actually work for businesses better than the Liberal ones. He also felt he had to cave in to many of the Liberal Dems in the Legislature to make deals/compromises work. It backfired, exactly what happened in the last WH administrations that tried the same idiocy. The media reports that the RNC and its Reps do nothing, exactly as they do today in Washington. The people believe this drivel, despite all evidence to the contrary and the people are deceived and the people vote, again for the fools and corruptors. They're on a merry-go-round, but it's not so merry.

According to Einstein and others, this IS the true definition of insanity. So keep "hoping" for your hopey-changey-feely kind of country and world. The road we're on now, if not abandoned, WILL lead to hyper-inflation, massive debt and then we shall see. I really wish this wasn't happening but wishing doesn't make it so Charley-boy. Talk to you next year and the year after-just like we said 7-8 years ago in California, land of hope and ENDLESS opportunity.

November 28, 2009 at 3:10 p.m.
alprova said...

Well, I "hope" you understood all that you typed canary, because I'm sure that not too many people will.

November 28, 2009 at 6:59 p.m.
Lightnup said...

The question was asked: Do the words "sovereign nation" not mean anything to you?

To which alprova responded: "Nope. Sell that one to God. He created this Earth. We are his guests."

And THAT exemplifies the futility of attempting to have a coherent discussion with someone who is incapable of accepting reality (also known as psychosis - described as "chaotic thinking that is the result of a severely impaired reality test (the patient cannot tell inner fantasy from outside reality.)...both psychotics and the personality disordered have a distorted view of reality and are not rational. No amount of objective evidence can cause them to doubt or reject their hypotheses and convictions." http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/psychosis_and_delusions

alprova, I apologize. Had I known you had this disorder, I would not have responded so harshly to some of your previous posts. I will take this into account from now on when reading your writings.

November 29, 2009 at 2:52 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

LOL

November 29, 2009 at 3:06 a.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova wrote: Crossing a border is not "theft," and in no manner comparable to robbing a bank at the point of a gun."

Very good alprova. You actually showed an inkling of perceiving reality when you wrote that crossing a border is not theft. It is illegal, but not theft. However, the reality that your disorder still causes you to deny is that crossing the border and then taking precious resources away from others who are legally entitled to those resources IS theft. Resources like jobs, living space, the space and associated costs involved in millions of illegal aliens in our already overflowing schools, emergency rooms, and jails, social programs funded by our tax dollars and intended for legal American citizens, etc., etc.

And when the theft is sanctioned by our government that takes money from us at the point of a gun, to be spent on those who are not legally entitled to it, it is definitely comparable to robbing a bank at the point of a gun. The main difference is that, in the case of our totally ineffective policy for dealing with massive illegal immigration, the government is acting the getaway driver for the people who are doing the robbing. Ask your therapist to explain it.

November 29, 2009 at 10:56 a.m.

Wow Lightnup, imagine how discombobulated he would become if I got really creative-out-of-the-box, and changed around my paragraphs, interspersing my comments with his? Might make someone read more slowly and thoughtfully, huh? (I just love discombobulating the Bobulants).

November 29, 2009 at 11:07 a.m.
Lightnup said...

I'd like to take this moment to honor the bravery of Charles Rangel, Timothy Geithner, Tom Daschle and former Louisiana Congressman William Jefferson, four courageous people who, out of desperation to make a better life for themselves and their loved ones, made the selfless decision to cheat on their taxes or take bribes, knowing that laws are written only to keep cowards from having what they may desperately need. Here's to you Brave People. And a special thanks to alprova for explaining to me what bravery is all about.

November 29, 2009 at 11:11 a.m.
alprova said...

Lightnup wrote: "alprova, I apologize. Had I known you had this disorder, I would not have responded so harshly to some of your previous posts. I will take this into account from now on when reading your writings."

Thanks for the diagnosis. I will give it the proper consideration that it deserves. .

While you would like to see every illegal thrown out on their hind ends south of the border, it will never come to pass.

They are here. They will remain for as long as they choose to remain here, and about all you can do about it is to whine like a child about it.

I seriously doubt that you would admit it, but the life you take for granted has you so spoiled and pampered, that if the roles were suddenly reversed and you were standing in a pair of their shoes, you wouldn't last a week.

I absolutely admit that about myself.

You belittle them. You laugh at me. You're currently without a hint of compassion. It's not just about this issue. You're heart is surrounded by a layer of concrete ten inches thick.

Karma can be a sobering reminder that your soul is always under review. When it catches up to you, will you have an inkling as to why it did? I hope so.

GWB understood the reality of the situation while he was Governor of Texas and while he was President. Like it or not, they fill a need within our society, over and above all objections by those who think that they have any right to make a guest list.

So whine all you want. Make all the comparisons you care to. Your opinion is quite irrelevant when it is all said and done.

And that, I am sure, chaps your behind most of all.

November 29, 2009 at 3:07 p.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova declared (incorrectly): "While you would like to see every illegal thrown out on their hind ends south of the border, it will never come to pass."

I never said that. In fact, in another thread today, I stated that the ones who are here should be allowed to stay. But that does not mean I'm in favor of another 20 million showing up unhindered after Obama legalizes the current 20 million. Let's stop providing incentives to sneak across our border (automatic citizenry for newborns plus the food stmaps that come with them, etc.), let's close the border so we don't have to legalize another 20 million in a few years and let's enforce the requirments that people who want to ente rthis country should do so legally. Is that so hard to understand?

Let's try to make the number of people who try to sneak into the U.S. every year roughly the same as the number of people trying to sneak into Cuba every year.

November 29, 2009 at 4:49 p.m.
Lightnup said...

alprova surmised (again incorrectly): "You're currently without a hint of compassion. It's not just about this issue. You're heart is surrounded by a layer of concrete ten inches thick. Karma can be a sobering reminder that your soul is always under review. When it catches up to you, will you have an inkling as to why it did? I hope so."

You have no clue about me. Having been a law enforcement officer, I have had more than enough experience with and exposure to those who try to better their situation through legal means, and those who do it through anything but legal means, and the full spectrum in between.

It's so easy for judgemental liberals to sit back and pompously claim their souls to be more pure than other mere mortals because they have the "compassion" to freely spend other people's money.

You know nothing about my level of compassion or empathy. How many Habitat for Humanity homes did you help build this year alprova? I'll bet I worked on more of them than you did. How much time did you spend serving your church's needs this year alprova? I'll bet I spent more of my personal time just transporting otherwise homebound seniors to and from Sunday services each week than you spent doing anything for your church. How many times this year did you give cash out of your pocket to a stranger in a store or on a street corner just becaue you knew they could use it....without writing it down for tax deduction purposes? Bet I can match or exceed it. If I'm wrong, then good for you.

But just because you think you're better than others because you don't believe people from other countries need to honor our immigration laws does not mean you somehow have a corner on compassion or a more "karma-proof" soul than anyone else.

Get off your high horse before you fall off and hurt yourself.

November 29, 2009 at 6:11 p.m.
alprova said...

I'll end this one with one more comment.

Declaring your good deeds to refute an accusation that you lack compassion on this and other issues is totally pathetic.

If you think that I will respond in kind, enumerating that which I do for others, well...you're going to have to wait a long time for that, because that's just not my style.

So you win that contest hands down, if you can call it that.

November 30, 2009 at 2:26 a.m.
Lightnup said...

When a person who knows nothing about me makes pompous ignorant judgemental comments about my level of compassion or the condition of my soul, exhibiting their own self-centered air of superiority, I will respond in whatever way I wish.

Of course, if I felt in my heart that your accusations had any validity, then I, like you, would have used the crutch of "it's not my style" in a weak attempt to deflect the attention away from me. But, unlike you, that's not my style.

November 30, 2009 at 9:26 a.m.

To some it is a "contest", a display of Ego, to others, like Lightnup, it is a matter of truth, facts and setting the record straight.

Knowing far more at this time of my life what TRUE compassion really is, versus the phony kind I was taught as a young, naive liberal, I never doubted Lightnup or Rolando know and practice compassion. They are tough, in the example of their contributions to our society, that's a good tough, one this country's leaders need to display and act on as well.

Thank you Lightnup for your life's work and service to your community (and to this site). You are a ray of light here and a wise teacher.

November 30, 2009 at 10:07 a.m.
alprova said...

Get a room...

December 1, 2009 at 1:15 a.m.
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