published Saturday, September 12th, 2009


about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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Lightnup said...

Clay, this has to be a reposting of this cartoon. Because surely you must have posted it when Cindy Sheehan called George Bush "the biggest terrorist in the world." And when Harry Reid called Bush a liar and a loser. And when Senator Kennedy went off on Judge Bork. And when Code Pink managed to get to the floor and disrupt the Republican Convention. And when SEIU thugs attacked and beat the black guy selling conservative t-shirts outside a town hall. Or, maybe it's only when conservatives start standing up for themselves that it's considered uncouth instead of patriotic.

Here's a quote from the lovable Abbie Hoffman (the Chicago Seven) that seem appropo: "When decorum is repression, the only dignity free men have is to speak out."

I would add, "especially when they speak the truth."

Joe Wilson for President.

September 12, 2009 at 1:04 a.m.
librul said...

Thank the Republicans - especially their extremist losers on the far right wing. Just the latest among the national disgraces they have produced.

September 12, 2009 at 1:14 a.m.
alprova said...

This one will cause a debate or two, I'm quite sure. A picture is indeed worth a thousand words. We however, only have 3,000 characters available in which to offer a comment.

Individually, I think most people are very decent when they discuss issues one-on-one with others. Group settings seem to bring out the worst in people, as has been documented over the summer during some of the town hall meetings.

I'm sure it will be denied, but it does appear that progressive thinking people have been far more civil when discussing health care reform, than conservatives have been. Of course, examples from both sides can be cited, but the vast majority of the negative behavior has been coming from those who are opposed to the Democratic reform proposal.

The latest example of this level of rude behavior involved a virtually unknown Republican, Congressman Joe Wilson of South Carolina, who has been enjoying his fifteen minutes of fame for erupting with the words "you lie" while the President was addressing Congress on Wednesday night, in the middle of denouncing and refuting the lies being spread about what is and is not contained in the Democratic sponsored health care reform bill, also known as H.R. 3200.

Denouncing it's contents has brought out the worst in some people, who often refuse to debate the subject honestly, respectfully, and more important, realistically.

Rather than to offer sensible solutions to a problem that will eventually affect all of us in some manner in the future, many think that no reform is needed. Those who feel that our system of health care is in fine shape are those who have never experienced first hand, the reasons why reform is on the table.

Those who are worried about the costs associated with any reform measures are comical at best. They offer that health care is too expensive to provide to a nation on a Federal level, yet seem to be unconcerned with why health care is currently too expensive for many people to realistically afford, especially for those with lower level incomes.

As we have seen numerous times at these town hall meetings, people who have attempted to attest to their negative health care experiences, they have been subjected to some extremely rude responses, sometimes to the point that they were unable to finish delivering their comments.

Regardless of how one feels about the issue, it's long past time to shelve the hyperbole, the rhetoric, and the lies. It's time to be pro-active in solving the problem. Debate is certainly warranted and welcomed, but it should be done with all due respect for ALL concerned parties.

It would be nice if people would at the very least, attempt to think of someone other than themselves, but that's just too much to ask of some people. Greed and selfishness has definitely taken root in this nation like a rapidly growing weed, and it will take a spade of unfathomable dimensions to unearth it.

September 12, 2009 at 1:39 a.m.
nucanuck said...

The single most supprising change when our family moved from Chattanooga to British Columbia was the difference in the general level of civility.Virtually everyone here is polite and respectful of everyone else.

The loss of civility and decorum in the US may be a sign of a deeper malaise.I suspect that it relates directly to widening income disparity and slow growing anger among so many who feel slippage in their ability to cope,no matter how hard they try.When you read that the captains of business are making hundreds of times the average worker's wage,it creates a slow seething anger that may manifest itself in a general unfocused decline in civility.

The land of opportunity has tilted toward government guided crony capitalism to the extent that people feel a sense of unfairness and frustration.America has everything it needs to be a great country,but somehow it's slipping away and we don't know quite why.

Clay's cartoon is but a sign of the times.

September 12, 2009 at 2:08 a.m.
alprova said...

Lightenup, Cindy Sheehan is and was a private citizen who took her anger and grief as a result of losing her soldier son, to an extreme that may or may not be justified. Either way, I highly object to you holding her out as any example to contrast to the likes of "Tea Partiers," "Birthers," or any of those who disrupt town hall meetings. These people have little to complain about, compared to the literal sacrifice that she made as a mother.

Harry Reid? Did he offer either word while on camera? Did he do it while being addressed by the President? Yeah, the words are harsh and there's little, if any excuse for a Senator to ever offer that level of disrespect towards a President, but it's still an apple to orange comparison.

Ted Kennedy on Judge Bork? He was right. Bork was a rooted, regressive, die-hard fundamentalist, with no tolerance for anything other than for what the long-dead, founding fathers wrote. He was too rooted in conservatism to effectively weigh any controversial opinion fairly, not that fairness matters to those hoping to fill a Supreme Court nominee. What sunk Bork was that he was a hypocritically fierce opponent of the exclusionary rule -- defined as evidence obtained through illegal searches cannot legally be presented in court to convict someone of a crime.

I suppose the fact that Ted Kennedy offered his opinions at a point, place, and time that such comments are considered to be proper and a legitimate part of a legislative process, does not matter to some people.

As for the rest, I knew that this would be the response that conservatives would offer. You think that isolated, and ancient examples will erase recent examples of outrageous and widespread behavior. Forgive me, but it's lame, but ya' gotta try to use what you have to work with.

Conservatives have never been reluctant to stand up for themselves. For sixteen long years, this nation was subjected to their domination. This past year, a reversal was in order and it occurred.

I don't find it funny at all, but I can't help but smirk every now and then and shake my head in wonder, when I see that some people still don't get it.

Republicans did a lousy job of piloting the aircraft that represents this nation. They have been bumped to the status as co-pilot. They can whine about it if they wish. They can scream all they want, wherever they want, but I think it would be a fantastic time for them to reflect upon the reasons that they were demoted in the first place.

September 12, 2009 at 3:08 a.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

The only person I ever saw disrupt GWB while he was speaking just got out of jail yesterday. He threw a shoe at him a few years back.

One thing I never hear from those like Wilson, who claim illegals are included in the health bill is: "and I quote". All they say is "It's in there, read the bill". I read the bill, HR3200 is online.

On page 143, sec 246, "and I quote": "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

The preceding section reiterates this, stating that “the term ‘affordable credit eligible individual’ means … an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States.” In other words, no federal subsidies for you if you’re in the country illegally. Besides, illegal immigrants aren’t eligible for federal health programs under current law

Joe Wilson is a liar, that's why Boehner made him appologize to the president personally.

September 12, 2009 at 3:14 a.m.
EaTn said...

Civil debates are good for the country, but the debates are no longer civil. We have a movement in this country fueled by big-money and radio and tv to propagate an agenda, which is not that unusual except that their tactics have switched to exclude any debate from opposing views. The recent outburst by Wilson shows how deep this tactic has spread and how divisive it is making our country. Those who think this is good for our country need to revisit 1850's and the bitter years that followed.

September 12, 2009 at 4:26 a.m.
moonpie said...

Lightenup, it is appalling to excuse Joe Wilson, much less praise him on the basis that other people may have acted in an uncivil manner too. Your argument is the same one my 5 year old sometimes makes to excuse his behavior.

One of my goals as a parent is to help him learn that he is accountable for his own actions. If he responds to rudeness in kind, he is giving other people control of him.

Despite the open hostility and outright lies by his opposition, President Obama has acted with dignity and grace. He is setting an example which more people on all sides should follow.

September 12, 2009 at 5:59 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

This cartoon isn't nasty, but some of Mr. Bennett's cartoons have been. (And partisan. Might telling police they can take their cars home, and then breaking that promise, draw his criticism?) Maureen Dowd, Tom Teepen, and Paul Krugman write nastily most of the time. (Mr. Teepen was actually thoughtful yesterday.) On the right, I can't stand much of Mark Levine's radio; and obviously Republicans make their share of mistakes, though liberalism is a mistake in concept. A polite way was Ronald Reagan's "There you go again, Mr. President" in his debate with President Jimmy Carter. Rep. Wilson did apologize. Do liberals politely accept?

September 12, 2009 at 6:36 a.m.
moonpie said...

Andrew, to answer your question: Obama very graciously accepted and said the matter was closed. I personally think Wilson was embarrassed by his outburst and his apology was sincere. I think he's human and we've all had our bad moments. I'm glad mine aren't on You-Tube. I do think that continued defense of bad behavior, however, is misguided and counter productive.

And you're right, one reason why Ronald Reagan was so loved was because he had good manners. This was part of the politics of inclusion. He focused on how we were all going to do better. He was positively focused. Though he had very different policies and political beliefs, Clinton also practiced the politics of inclusion (dispite his personal behavior). Obama is following in that same mold of treating others with dignity and respect and promoting that we are all going to move forward. I think this is one reason why even people who strongly dissagree with these presidents' politics, they can still regard them fondly and with respect.

September 12, 2009 at 7:09 a.m.
EaTn said...

Mr.Wilson was admonished by Rush for his apology. The next few weeks will tell whether or not he is willing to take heat from the extremists and set a new example for all Americans. An opportunity like this doesn't come along in most people's lifetime.

September 12, 2009 at 7:38 a.m.
najones75 said...

Same ol' story, same ol' song and dance.

I remember the clip where Al Gore is screaming at the top of his lungs about Bush being un-American and a criminal.

I remember the entire Left of Congress loudly booing Bush during his last State of the Union address.

The list goes on and on.

Now, no matter how you felt about Bush...agree or disagree...that's beside the point...these things happened...that's a fact. But, all of these numerous, frequent occasions are not the same?

You can't have it both ways people.

The incident also begs this question. What if it is a lie? Every proposal I've read so far from the various committees does indeed insure illegal aliens. No one seems to mentioning this.

Oh this is Obama's plan, not the others. Well, let's see the details. Waiting...waiting...waiting. Seems we're getting a lot of vague, sugar-coated generalities...but no written facts.

Good day all.

September 12, 2009 at 9:18 a.m.
signalmtnman said...

Having lived in SC for a number of years I can assure you that Joe Wilson is an absolute nut and for right wingers to now start holding this guy up as their savior is yet another example of how lost their cause is and how desperate they are to jump on the bandwagon of people whom they truly know nothing about.

Does Sarah Palin, or rather the biblical Queen Esther, ring any bells?

September 12, 2009 at 9:23 a.m.
Clara said...


I agree!

From what I've read, POTUS responded with dignity and decorum.

Had the President responded in any other way, the presentation would have ended in a disgraceful melee'

I dislike the Reform Bill, intensely, but I cannot see how a fractious debate at that point would have solved anything.

September 12, 2009 at 9:39 a.m.
OllieH said...

Lightnup writes, "Joe Wilson for President."

Congratulations, Lightnup, you have just set the standard by which all moronic statements will be judged.

Your initial post mentions many examples of dissent, but that's not really the issue when it comes to the heckling of his big-mouthed, small-minded, congressman from South Carolina. The issue here is basic civility and decorum during a presidential address to Congress.

This whole ugly episode may garner Joe Wilson the adoration of the jugheads out there who believe being loud is an ample substitute for being smart. And although that's a group that seems to be growing in size, they're also a fanbase that's hardly worth having.

Joe Wilson is not the symbol of resistance, he's a symbol of crass rudeness. His psychotic outburst the other night was the lowest level of debate I've witnessed since MTV cancelled 'Beavis and Butthead'.

September 12, 2009 at 10:23 a.m.
woody said...

"Take the high road," is what I have always been told and taught. Once you allow yourself to be dragged down into a situation on the other person's level, you've become that which you strove to rise above.

"The road less traveled," is a lonely road, at times, but it will lead you to a better place in the end.

Stick to your guns (Rolando will appreciate that).

Thank you for your time and attention, Woody

September 12, 2009 at 10:25 a.m.
OllieH said...

AndrewLohr writes, "Rep. Wilson did apologize. Do liberals politely accept?"

I didn't hear an apology. Find me a quote, Andrew.

Wilson has refused to publicly apologize on the House floor. Whatever apology he made, was made grudgingly, under duress, and to the president directly. He hasn't apologized to me, or you, or anyone else. How are we supposed to accept an apology that we have yet to receive?

When that moron apologizes to this entire nation, I'll consider it.

September 12, 2009 at 10:35 a.m.
OllieH said...

Clara writes, "I dislike the Reform Bill, intensely,"

I don't get this, Clara. From the information you've shared about your life, I would have guessed you'd be a supporter.

September 12, 2009 at 10:40 a.m.
moonpie said...

Woody, you make a good point. The low road is like revenge, better dig two graves.

As a business associate of mine once said, "The high road may be painful, but given the alternative, it's always the least painful."

He's been right, every time.

September 12, 2009 at 10:41 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Joe Wilson was rude, he apologized directly to Obama. So get over it. It's a non-story, but provides cover for the left, reflecting attention away from important stories like the fact that Obama lied to the American people, the unbelievable antics of ACORN, Van Jones, Cass Sunstein, and the rest of the radicals that Obama continues to surround himself with.

September 12, 2009 at 10:49 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Joe Wilson was rude. Obama lied. Which one has more potential for harm? Read the following:

"The Congressional Research Service (CRS), which is the non-partisan “research arm” of the United States Congress, issued a report that CONCLUDES THAT ILLEGAL ALIENS WILL BE ABLE TO RECEIVE BENEFITS UNDER THE HOUSE HEALTH CARE BILL (H.R. 3200) through two major loopholes.

According to its own website, CRS is a legislative branch agency that provides Congress with “policy and legal analysis” that is authoritative, objective and accurate. (CRS website). …illegal aliens will be able to receive taxpayer-funded health benefits under the House health care bill. …

The House bill creates an “exchange” and “all individuals,” which would include illegal aliens, are eligible to participate in the exchange. Anyone who participates in the exchange, and does not otherwise have health insurance, can either enroll in the public option plan created by the House bill or enroll in a private insurance plan. Accordingly, the first loophole that provides illegal aliens with health insurance is the ability for illegal aliens to freely enroll in the taxpayer-subsidized public option. According to CRS, “H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on non-citizens — whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently — from participating in the Exchange.” (CRS Report). Accordingly, illegal aliens can enroll in the public option, courtesy of the American taxpayers, to meet their health insurance needs. (See, August 2009).

The second major loophole is the failure to require any meaningful verification procedure for taxpayer-subsidized insurance credits. Under the House bill, individuals who buy private insurance through the Exchange may receive an affordability credit to offset the cost of insurance. This credit is ostensibly limited to individuals lawfully present in the U.S., but CRS (like FAIR) notes the complete absence of any provision in the House bill that requires verification of eligibility for the affordability credits. Without such a mechanism, there is nothing in the bill that will prevent illegal aliens from receiving this taxpayer subsidy to buy private health insurance.

These conclusions by CRS should eliminate any remaining doubt about whether illegal aliens will receive health benefits under the bill. As a result of this report, President Obama can no longer characterize the concerns about the illegal alien health care loophole under the bill as “misinformation.” In addition, Members of Congress can no longer claim the bill prevents coverage for illegal aliens, and the media can no longer suggest this concern is a “myth.”

The report:

September 12, 2009 at 10:51 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Ollie wrote:

"The issue here is basic civility and decorum during a presidential address to Congress."

Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill. If decorum was the all-encompassing issue, then the constant standing up to clap, whistle and yell every single time the President finished a sentence would be banned.

Joe Wilson apologized to the President, the only person he was rude to. There is no way he owes an apology to anyone else. Who apologized for the previously mentioned booing of GWB from the left during his Presidential address?

September 12, 2009 at 11:03 a.m.
OllieH said...

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

September 12, 2009 at 11:11 a.m.
woody said...

Moonpie, you have a very smart friend there. The kind I'd like to know.

And to Lightnup, you made a valid point concerning decorum, however, and as I understand the House Minority Whip pointed out somewhat later, Mr. Wilson owes an apology for harming (my word, not necessarily his) the integrity of The House of Representatives. (Which is where the offense occurred.)

And, he may even owe something to those of his constituents who might be walking around a bit red-faced these days. In other words, I don't believe his mamma raised him to act that way in public.


September 12, 2009 at 11:39 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Oh OllieH. Section 246 is but one small portion of H.R. 3200, concerning affordability credits, i.e. payments to low income individuals (some might say another form of welfare), and has no bearing on whether they are actually covered by the government healthcare plan or not. But, nice try.

September 12, 2009 at 11:58 a.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

The new fear from Republicans that illegals may cash in on our dime with health care, is that they may cheat. They point out a scenario where an illegal immigrant may steal an identity and SS number, then apply for health care credits under that new ID.

If that's the concern, there is no health care bill that will work if it doesn't include a natl ID card (which may also be forged or obtained with a stolen ID). I can't think of anything that would make the right scream louder.

Throwing out HR3200 because someone may cheat should also require elimination of Social Security, Medicare, driver's licenses, unemployment comp, student loans, food stamps, and every other govt benefit American citizens recieve. After all, none of these programs have a mechanism that absolutely prevents identity thieves from participating. Indeed, the "Congressional Research Service" can not guarantee illegals aren't employed there under false IDs, so we'd have to discount their findings as unreliable.

HR3200 clearly states that no one in the country illegally can obtain govt sponsored health care.(period)

September 12, 2009 at 12:28 p.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

Unlike most, I went to the Congressional Research Service site and actually read the pdf report they issued on HR3200 and how it covers illegal aliens (imagine that).

In the report summary, they explained the difference between "resident" and "nonresident" aliens as well as "legal" and "non legal" and "documented" and "undocumented" aliens.

The scenario they describe is not about eligibility for "illegal aliens", they CLEARLY point out that they will NOT be covered under HR3200, but a case of documented aliens who are in the country legally (resident noncitizens).

These can include fiances of citizens and those on student visas with citizenship pending for more than three years. In most cases, they are noncitizens who are expected to stay in the country permanently and gain eventual citizenship status (your doctor?). In these cases, "non citizens" may indeed get health care benefits under the bill.

As expected, the Republicans read this, substituted "non citizen" for the hotbed phrase "illegal immigrant", and ran with it.

September 12, 2009 at 1:04 p.m.
miraweb said...

Having an opinion, even a strong one, is one of the most American of values. However, you may not like your son-in-law, but making a scene during the wedding ceremony is still wrong.

A Congressman yelling during a Presidential speech is childish and the mark of a fool. We have more than enough fools in government as it stands.

Surely, Mr. Wilson can get his opinion to the media anytime, day or night. He has an office full of people to do just that.

To me, his action looked like a planned stunt to keep the public debate on anything but health care.

No one can seriously defend policies that keep sick people away from medical help. Congress can't get any mileage on that.

So, we get goofy stunts.

If the only real solution is fewer goofballs in office, then maybe sending his opponent a check really is the right answer.

I feel bad for South Carolinians, though. Two idiot politicians in a month?

September 12, 2009 at 1:21 p.m.
Lightnup said...

Not true JohnnyRingo. I also read the CRS report and posted the link so that others could read it too.

You must have missed this part of the report:

"In addition, under H.R. 3200, a “Health Insurance Exchange” would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option. The Exchange would provide eligible individuals and small businesses with access to insurers’ plans, including the public option, in a comparable way. Individuals would only be eligible to enroll in an Exchange plan if they were not enrolled in other acceptable coverage (for example, from an employer, Medicare and generally Medicaid). H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the Exchange—WHETHER THE NONCITIZENS ARE LEGALLY OR ILLEGALLY PRESENT, or in the United States temporarily or permanently. Nonetheless, only aliens who could be classified as resident aliens would be REQUIRED under the bill to have health insurance.

September 12, 2009 at 1:45 p.m.
Sailorman said...

HR 3200 SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS: Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.


(a) In General- Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services.

No illegals aren't eligible BUT you can't discriminate. BUT Sec 246 appears to explicitly permit discrimination against illegals. If that's the case, I suppose they will just continue to go to emergency rooms. Anybody know what the phrase "Federal payments for affordability credits" means in English?

HR3200 isn't the only bill floating around though it does get the most press.

September 12, 2009 at 3:18 p.m.
Clara said...


I guess you hadn't read previous posts in which I pointed out several parts of the bill which I had read, dealing with the problems, one of which is a Health Care Exchange that will offer 3 different plans; basic, regular, and premium, which still discriminates against the poor in basic care in that they would probably not get their teeth or eyes taken care of. I know in the VA system, since I'm not war-wounded, I also have to pay for this care with a very high cost. I am toothless because of my inability to cover the cost of dental care in the last 40 years, but managed a set of dentures which now have to be replaced after about 10 years.

Surely we need medical reform, but this obvious intrusion of even more cost, bureaucracy and connivance with the medical, pharmaceutical, and insurance industry should be ended.

I’ve stated several times that I certainly favor the so-called “Socialist?” care received in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, France, Cuba, etc.

I haven't noticed that we are taking care of all our people, except on a very personal basis and ability.

I never disagreed with the section that purported to be a “Death Panel” by someone probably controlled by the far right. Thanks to a poster on this blog, I read the section and found it quite similar to what already exists in other regulations covered in bureaucratic health care regulations.

I recently wrote to my congressman, (Dem.) who, I gather, also feels uncomfortable with this bill.

Mostly, since I’m up to pp, 105, I find the bill incomprehensible, redundant and confusing, as I have no ability to follow through to the references offered which are mostly to existing legislation.

I'm not talking about the government controlling industry, medicine, business, and banking, etc. I'm talking about what seems to be more and more control of the individual.

I feel over-regulated.

September 12, 2009 at 3:48 p.m.
alprova said...

"Except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act"

"Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

They still don't get it.

In order for an illegal alien to obtain "affordability credits" or to have benefits paid for on their behalf, they would have to file a tax return and/or cough up a valid and verifiable Social Security number.

Neither is possible for an illegal alien to do. They CAN pay taxes into the system with a tax ID number, but they cannot file a personal tax return in order to obtain a refund or credit of any kind without a Social Security number. I have never in my life been able to have a health insurance policy issued, without having to provide my SSN.

So all of this uproar over illegal aliens having access to health care if H.R. 3200 were to be passed, is more than laughable.

September 12, 2009 at 4:04 p.m.
alprova said...

Get a load of this demonstration by the "Tea Partiers."

September 12, 2009 at 5:01 p.m.
Lightnup said...

Jeez Alprova, how come you didn't post any of the videos of the crowds manhandling and shouting down FOX News reporters at the Democratic convention? How come you didn't post the video of SEIU members knocking down and kicking the black conservative guy selling T-shirts at a town hall meeting? How come you didn't post the ACORN videos showing this taxpayer funded outfit telling people how to lie, cheat and steal from the government while bringing 13-yr old girls into the county to work as prostitutes? Never mind, I know why.

September 12, 2009 at 5:23 p.m.
alprova said...

Here's another gem....

September 12, 2009 at 5:30 p.m.
Lightnup said...

Yeah, here's a gem too...

Here's another. Be sure to scroll down to see the "civil, respectuful public discourse" being displayed by those on the left...

September 12, 2009 at 5:51 p.m.
alprova said...

Lightenup writes: "Jeez Alprova, how come you didn't post any of the videos of the crowds manhandling and shouting down FOX News reporters at the Democratic convention?"

I'd have to see that to believe it. Are you sure that the reporter was not attempting to go on the air when a speaker was at the podium? People normally do get quite loud at conventions during speeches.

"How come you didn't post the video of SEIU members knocking down and kicking the black conservative guy selling T-shirts at a town hall meeting?"

For one simple reason. There is no clear cut proof as to who said what to whom or who hit the other first, during that August 6th incident. Six people were arrested and they were not all SEIU members.

"How come you didn't post the ACORN videos showing this taxpayer funded outfit telling people how to lie, cheat and steal from the government while bringing 13-yr old girls into the county to work as prostitutes? Never mind, I know why."

No you don't. You don't know me at all. ACORN is not MY organization, and I am not affiliated with it in any matter, nor have I ever defended ACORN in this forum or any other. I sure wouldn't defend the utter stupidity that was revealed in those videos.

But let's be clear about something -- Those two women have tarnished the ENTIRE organization. Still, it's as fair to hold the entire organization responsible for their actions, as it is for anyone to hold the Republican Party accountable when a bad apple or two bobs to the surface in their vat.

I have only offered clear and concise offerings that expose the more extreme and inexcusable types of behavior related to CURRENT events. This all began when right wing conservative talking heads began urging their cult following to disrupt civil meetings. It makes no difference to some that these events were sponsored by concerned groups who were there to discuss the need in reforming health care on a serious level.

These meetings were purposely infiltrated by those who were there to discuss anything BUT health care. They were there to disrupt civility, plain and simple. They are not people to be admired or honored. They are the scourge that plagues civil discourse, and they deserve to be outed for the idiots that they are.

Today, Glenn Beck is marching on Washington D.C.

He has a reason for being afraid of paying more taxes. He makes a mint, and if taxes are raised, he will pay substantially more than he currently does. Those who support him and do his bidding, have been brainwashed into thinking that his fear is their own. No one has proposed raising taxes on those who make a quarter of a million dollars per year or less.

Refute those simple facts, if you can.

If and when I make it back up into the six figures again, I will gladly fork over those tax checks, just as I used to do. I will know that I am back.

September 12, 2009 at 6:27 p.m.
Wayfarer said...

It's sad, but exactly the same cartoon could be published here in Spain. In spanish, of course ;-)


-- Wayfarer

September 12, 2009 at 6:53 p.m.
miraweb said...

The real question was not how many Guatemala citizens will get flu shots on your dime. The question was how do we insure tens of millions of Americans. Funny how quickly people are to throw those folks under the bus if by some chance some immigrant my somehow get fake papers and somehow be able to buy insurance. Again, this was never about health care - this was an attempt by the right to tie fear of change in health care to fear of brown people. The sad part is, there will be a fair number of folks just ignorant enough to fall for that.

September 12, 2009 at 7:41 p.m.
ricardo said...

It's too bad that Republicans can't come up with intelligent arguments against health care reform, instead of absurd scare tactics to fire up their uneducated base. I would really like to hear their solutions to this difficult problem. I'd like to hear how Democrats are going to pay for this also.

September 12, 2009 at 9:01 p.m.
nucanuck said...

The above comments are a pretty good reflection of America's painful divide.A spitting contest between left and right with no traction or forward movement,just spittle.

I don't know how we become one nation again,but it's sure not happening at the present.

September 12, 2009 at 9:02 p.m.
InspectorBucket said...

Nucanuk observes:

"I don't know how we become one nation again,but it's sure not happening at the present."

A precise observation, and TIME is the key.

These debates about health care and will be very different in 30 - 40 years, as older generations have passed along and the younger generations realize their voice.

Really, who can imagine anyone under 50 passionately responding to accusations of "Un-American Activities" and "Socialism"?

Who will rally and stand up for John Birch and the unfairly maligned Joseph McCarthy and Richard Nixon in another several decades?

Those are the buzz-words and political push-buttons of a fast-fading age, and the oldies who rise up for them in 2009 will long have made their mortal pilgrimage in another four decades.

Obama is an imperfect figure. But as the strong reaction against him tells, his image as president is an honest barometer. The people reacting against him are pushing back against their own generation's mortality and the realization that the end of the America that they knew came much earlier than they bargained.

September 12, 2009 at 9:49 p.m.
alprova said...

InspectorBucket, if you spend a little time perusing the comments that are coming from our younger generation on the various sites, I think you will find that they are far more likely to embrace a little socialism, than to reject it.

They are adamantly opposed to war, just like generations before, they are overwhelmingly Democratic supporters, and they love the man you referred to as "imperfect" who is currently attempting to clean up the mess he was left for him to deal with.

Great...another Joseph McCarthy defender. The man was a complete moron, and nothing will ever change that.

John Birch? The societal objectives that they endorse are not vastly different than those that the voters of this nation rejected this past year. People are sick and tired of neurotic people flapping their arms like Chicken Little.

Richard Nixon? He was guilty of nothing more than the same thing that others before him have been guilty of. I think he was a very decent man and a dedicated politician. I also feel that he should have stuck it out, rather than to have quit, but that's neither here nor there. He at least did the honorable thing, given the sentiment of the nation at the time.

I find your assessment that the "end of America" is here rather presumptuous and totally hilarious. It may be the end of the New America that a select few have been trying to create over the past several years, and thank God for that. I've had enough of the type of America that the Republicans have envisioned for themselves and their cronies, leaving us peons twisting in the wind.

Political opinions have always been all over the place, but the fight to preserve the damage that has been left in the wake of sixteen years of Republican domination, has caused so many who side with the right to become completely bitter, defensive to the nth degree, and blind to the truth. I'm sorry, but far too many in this nation have swallowed hook, line, and sinker, the machinations of the right, who know not your name, nor care one whit whether you live or die.

Take a moment to look at things realistically. The organization within the Republican Party itself has eroded to the point that they do not have so much as one viable candidate to parade in front of a nation, in order to resume plundering it.

President Obama is on the right track, much to the disappointment of those who are so misguided and indictrinated. By the time he finishes his first term, he will have accomplished enough to most certainly warrant a second term. It will be a complete landslide too.

By the time that he finishes that second term, the process of reversing the damage will be nearly complete, and a Republican won't be able to buy any more elections, votes, or ten minutes worth of credibility.

Oh happy day! The impending rebirth of America is at hand. We just need to be patient, supportive, and resist all temptation to be forced to lower ourselves to the level of our detractors.

September 13, 2009 at 12:51 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Wow Alprova, I didn't realize that you were that far 'round the bend. Your deep-seated class envy has obviously driven you to the point of irrational fantasizing.

You have a Democrat President and a Democrat-controlled congress and STILL can't get a government run healthcare bill passed. Even your own party doesn't want what the fascist president is pushing.

September 13, 2009 at 1:28 a.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

All I see is Obama trying to return us to the relatively better days Americans enjoyed in the '90s.

He picked up health care where Hillary left off, a return to corporate oversight and regulation, and a progressive tax where the wealthiest among us pay their fair share.

I hear republicans screaming at the top of their lungs to continue the Bush legacy. It's not because that's what is best for the country, but because they want the White House back in 2012.

September 13, 2009 at 2:12 a.m.
OllieH said...

Lightnup writes, "Even your own party doesn't want what the fascist president is pushing."

You are truly pathetic, Lightnup. You and Joe Wilson deserve each other.

September 13, 2009 at 9:25 a.m.
alprova said...

Lightenup, I do not envy people who make lots of money. I pity them. You probably do not understand why I might offer that.

I've seen time and again what making large amounts of money does to people and it sickens me every time I see it. People with money become judgmental. People with money become hard hearted. People with money become obsessed with hoarding it, worrying constantly about losing a dime of it, and they think it will buy them anything under the sun, including a ticket for admittance through the pearly gates of Heaven.

And just so you know, I held the above same opinions when I was an avid supporter of the Republican Party.

I am a person who has never desired to be rich. I have only desired to be financially comfortable and when I did employ people, I always shared the profits of the business with my former employees. I was, and still am a person who had/has no problem in continuously informing employees to the financial aspects of the business with my employees. They knew what was made or lost, and I absolutely know for a fact that because I did this, my employees worked to insure profits at all times. They knew that they would be rewarded for their efforts.

Does that make me a Socialist? God, I hope so. I hope someday to be able to repeat what I did back then, for as many people as I can possibly employ in the future.

So you see, I may have been a Republican, but I was not a very good one.

Health care reform will be passed. How deep the reforms will go remains to be seen. Bill Clinton backed off in 1993 because he lived and breathed what he did as President according to the polls.

President Obama is not a man who cares what detractors think. He knows the right thing to do, and he has stated more than once, that if it costs him a second term as President, he can live with that just fine.

And some people think that he is a typical politician. Hah!

September 13, 2009 at 10:22 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Here you go Alprorva, you had to see it to believe it.

September 13, 2009 at 10:53 a.m.
Lightnup said...

OllieH quipped: "Lightnup writes, "Even your own party doesn't want what the fascist president is pushing."

You are truly pathetic, Lightnup. You and Joe Wilson deserve each other."

Thanks OllieH. From you that's a compliment. Still doesn't change the fact that Obama, Pelosi and Reid can't get enough members of their own party to go along with their power grab, reform plan.

One would think that 50 years of trying - and failing - to foist universal healthcare upon us, the left would eventually recognize that Americans DO NOT WANT IT. But, no, they persist.

September 13, 2009 at 11:02 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Alprova over-generalized: "I've seen time and again what making large amounts of money does to people and it sickens me every time I see it. People with money become judgmental. People with money become hard hearted. People with money become obsessed with hoarding it, worrying constantly about losing a dime of it, and they think it will buy them anything under the sun, including a ticket for admittance through the pearly gates of Heaven."

Me thinks perhaps you're projecting your own tendencies onto others whom you do not know. Your diatribe drips with disdain for those who have more than you. It's obviously not money that makes people judgmental as your posts are among the most judgmental on these forums.

I have been in the business of selling luxury items to "people with money" for nearly 30 years. 99% of them are genuine, caring, ordinary people who provide employment for many, many others, they contribute to, attend and host charitable events for the benefit of others, they are quite often philanthropists and benefactors in a variety of areas. The vast majority of them have also worked hard and long to create a secure future for themselves and their families. Without "people with money" where would the money come from to support charities, start businesses and run charitable foundations? Not from the Government. The Government does not have money...they take it from those with money. Let's see what happens if those nasty "people with money" all disappear. Good luck with your utopian version of everyone being equally miserable then.

You should work on getting over your bitter, petty jealousy of those who have more than you. Despite your objections to the contrary, the Government doesn't have the right or moral obligation to take money from those people at the point of a gun and give it to you.

September 13, 2009 at 11:26 a.m.
alprova said...

Well, I can't do a thing about what you think, how you have just judged me, and I am in no position to do a thing about your personal objections to our system of taxation.

As to the rest...go pounce a pound of salt. You don't know a thing about me, what I am, or what I want from a soul.

That's not saying that I don't understand you, because I do. I used to say the same things too, before my eyes were opened.

All I can do is to pray that you open your own one day.

September 13, 2009 at 3:25 p.m.
alprova said...

"Here you go Alprorva, you had to see it to believe it."

Score one for Lightnup. I'll not defend bad behavior, no matter who commits the act. And yes, that was pretty bad.

However, I too can no longer stomach Fox News. At one time, I considered them to be the only credible source to get the truth. I found them on 9/11, watched them for three days straight, day and night, and was hooked on the network until about this time last year.

When I began fact checking (no...not on fact check dot org) the stories and opinions of the hosts, I found that the lies being told were just too over-the-top.

Over the past couple of years, there have been at least a dozen instances where the network has identified well-known Republicans as Democrats, and in each and every case, these Republicans were on the carpet (Foley, Stevens, Sanford, McCain, Craig, Lieberman, off the top of my head). Not once has the network made the same kind of "errors" in identifying a Democrat as a Republican when they were in the negative limelight.

On the day that they posted the list of nationwide town hall meeting locations, at the behest of Glenn Beck I'm quite sure, I switched them off for good. I do occasionally go to the Fox site for a quick look, but I haven't clicked on a story in weeks.

I'm successfully weaned off of Fox and have discovered that CNN and MSNBC are a bit more balanced in their reporting of the NEWS than Fox is.

And yes, I am now a Keith Olbermann fan. That deadpan look of his is one of a kind, and it's priceless.

September 14, 2009 at 4:41 a.m.
OllieH said...

Lighnup- my lament was over your use of the word 'fascist' to describe the president. That was what was I found truly pathetic.

I just don't see why you, and others like you, feel it necessary to demonize Barack Obama the way you do. I understand that you don't agree with his political philosophy- that's fine. But resorting to this juvenile, fear-mongering, name-calling is beneath you.

I know how you feel. For eight years, my own beliefs were completely abandoned by the White House. I despised the policies, tactics, and personal style of George W. Bush more than you can know. But in all that time, a period in which I couldn't even see the president on a television set without muttering curse words, I never referred to the president as a 'fascist'.

And the label was probably much more deserved then, than now.

Don't you realize that using such incendiary language discredits you more than the president? Such ridiculous hyperbole only makes you seem reactionary and, quite frankly, a bit unhinged. It's the same with the disparaging titles you folks employ. You may think that 'dear leader', 'The One' or the 'community organizer in chief' are clever and effective. But I assure you, there are quite the opposite.

I would advise you to stick to the issues. Argue your points rationally and intellectually, and avoid the visceral demagoguery. If you would, I think far more people would take you seriously, and they might consider your point of view more readily than they do now.

September 14, 2009 at 10:08 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Alprova wrote: "You don't know a thing about me, what I am, or what I want from a soul. That's not saying that I don't understand you, because I do."

No, I don't think you do. Have done the cancer thing. Been there...done that...still foregoing other purchases due to paying off remaining medical bills. But I do not expect nor want the government to step in and make it all better. No one, especially government, can protect us from all bad things in life and, even if they could, at what cost?

September 14, 2009 at 10:38 a.m.
Lightnup said...

Alprova wrote: "Over the past couple of years, there have been at least a dozen instances where the network has identified well-known Republicans as Democrats, and in each and every case, these Republicans were on the carpet (Foley, Stevens, Sanford, McCain, Craig, Lieberman, off the top of my head)."

As you once said, I'll believe it when I see it.

September 14, 2009 at 10:41 a.m.
Lightnup said...

OllieH, I could fill a book with the vile, filthy names that Bush was called during his tenure. Now that the President is a Democrat, you want the labels put aside?

According to the dictionary, the "cult of personality" by a charismatic figure is one of the cornerstones of fascism, along with regimenting industry and commerce. Can you say "Pay Czar?"

As the bumper sticker says, "I'll give your President the same respect you gave mine."

September 14, 2009 at 10:49 a.m.
OllieH said...

Lightnup wrote, "OllieH, I could fill a book with the vile, filthy names that Bush was called during his tenure."

And I'm sure you respected those recationary people as much as we now respect you. Look, you can do whatever you want, I'm just saying, that if you want to be taken seriously, you might want to present a serious argument instead of resorting to such juvenile debate tactics.

Calling someone a 'fascist' doesn't convince anyone that it's so. Referring to the president as the 'community organizer in chief' only makes YOU sound foolish.

Certainly, we were in no short supply of invective during the Bush years. But, at least the Democrats didn't sink to the level of an elected official screaming "You Lie" at the President of the United States in the middle of a congressional address.

And again, it would be a charge much more deserved then, than now.

Individually, most folks won't dare to act or speak like they will when emboldened by a mob. It's unfortunate that the mob mentality now seems to be the standard by which the loyal opposition operates.

September 14, 2009 at 11:07 a.m.

LOST....Presidents, Politicians, Editors, Columnists, Cartoonists et al who preach "Bi-partisanship" and then 'compassionately' vilify and destroy anyone who doesn't salute their god or his agenda.

September 14, 2009 at 11:12 a.m.
Lightnup said...

OllieH writes: "But, at least the Democrats didn't sink to the level of an elected official screaming "You Lie" at the President of the United States in the middle of a congressional address."

No, they just booed rudely in unison at Bush's address. Safety in numbers, I guess.

September 14, 2009 at 11:19 a.m.

NN: either you're not telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about your stint in BC, or you were living in a nice (well-paid bubble). Go to the streets of any large city in Canada and ask the poor and the working classes how they feel about petty issues such as: Health-care and the quality thereof, the economy, the gov't and its 'compassionate' ways, etc. You can't pull the wool over my eyes. Until you've spent many, many years there or in Britain or Europe and know the Bureaucracy and what it has done to Free Speech and the populace, please refrain from misleading statements...sheesh.

Ringo: Quote all of the bill if you like...just go live in CA or MA or NY and then tell us there are no illegals accessing the HC system, Welfare, Colleges, Food stamps, etc, etc. AND, do you think your Leader wants amnesty for the tens of millions of illegals in the US so one day they will be legal? Of course he does. He is sooo compassionate, isn't he? Just one tiny question, where's the $ coming from? Oh, let's ask Canada, Britain, CA, NY and MA, they'll tell us.

September 14, 2009 at 11:31 a.m.
Lightnup said...

OllieH writes: "Calling someone a 'fascist' doesn't convince anyone that it's so."

Well then, what does? Waiting until the complete government control over industry has been accomplished? The pay czars and diversity czars are in place? Talk radio is stifled by "local interest content" panels and fines paid to benefit public broadcasting? The census is run from the White House? The IRS is plugged into our healthcare records? The government run healthcare industry has access to our tax returns? The President relies on his personality and "coolness" to sway the populace into believing his agenda is for their own good?

Do we have to wait until all of the "-ism" mechanisms are already in place and implemented before acknowledging which "-ism" our President is?

September 14, 2009 at 11:44 a.m.
Lightnup said...


This AP headline, run in the San Francisco Chronical today, is just another example of liberal media's "spin," designed to fit the left's narrative. Reading this headline, one would immediately think, "Oh my gosh, Nacy Pelosi must be correct, all this Anti-Obama rhetoric is leading to physical violence against politicians."

In reality, the Iowa councilman "may" have said something derogatory TWO YEARS AGO about one of his opponents, and unfortunately was in same bar as the opponent's uncle, who did something he was quoted as saying he's wanted to do for over two years.

If it weren't for the mainstream, state-controlled media wanting to further an agenda, this would not even have been a news story.

September 20, 2009 at 11:01 a.m.
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