published Monday, April 5th, 2010

Tennessee: Dad wants biology textbook banned for 'myth'

KNOXVILLE — The father of a Knox County public school student wants the school board to get rid of a high school biology textbook that he calls biased against Christians.

The board was scheduled Monday evening to consider Kurt Zimmerman's appeal of a review panel's finding in favor of the book.

The Knoxville News Sentinel reported Zimmerman wants a change of textbooks because the honors biology course book used at Farragut High School describes creationism as a "biblical myth." He is asking that what he termed non-biased textbooks be used.

School superintendent Jim McIntyre said the committee's finding to keep using the book was appropriate. He asked the board to both hear Zimmerman's appeal and uphold the committee's recommendation. A decision is expected Wednesday.

Zimmerman asked in December that the school immediately quit using the book "Asking About Life" in his son's class and all classes.

He said it could "mislead, belittle and discourage students in believing in creationism and pointedly calls the Bible a myth."

The newspaper reported Zimmerman's documentation included a quotation from page 319 on which the authors describe creationism as "the biblical myth that the universe was created by the Judeo-Christian God in 7 days."

A six-person textbook review committee concluded the material wasn't questionable and recommended the book not be banned.

One of the reviewers wrote that in context, the word myth was appropriately used to "describe a traditional or legendary story with or without a natural explanation."

Another reviewer concluded the writers used the word myth "for shock value."

Among members of the review board were Farragut's principal, a biology teacher, a parent and a student.

McIntyre said this is the first time in his first two years as superintendent that a parent has asked that a textbook be banned.


Information from: The Knoxville News Sentinel,

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lkeithlu said...

Oh good grief. Another one? Creation IS a myth. It is NOT a scientific explanation for the diversity of life on Earth. This is embarrassing, Tennessee.

April 5, 2010 at 7:03 p.m.

So you say, again. Yet, hundreds of millions of folks worldwide disagree with the above, approximately 80% in the US believe in God. So what's the harm to put the Darwinian theory next to Creationism? If the atheists are so sure they're SO right, what are they afraid of?

Moreover, Christians pay their taxes including school taxes and many others they disagree with. They also have the right of protest. As well, what makes you geniuses think, kids and high schoolers can't form a thought of their own and make up their own minds when conflicting views are put in front of them?

Not that long ago, in the span of History (40-50 years), that's how classes and courses were taught for the most part. Kids then debated, asked questions and heard all views, including their parents. They made up their own minds eventually. I was taught both views eons ago, by teachers who definitely had their own biases yet encouraged us to do research and question all THEORIES, including the Theory of Darwinism/the evolution of species.

Since then, the theories have conveniently changed a hundred times and many 'scientists' in the field have been caught fudging their findings. Yet, according to the "experts" , evolution is "sound science". I doubt children are taught in most schools now to debate and research properly, instead they parrot the same talking points as their Marxist Profs and act like indoctrinated idiots in their twenties.

Bottom line is, if a Christian, homeschool your kids until this Regime outlaws it, as Germany and other Progressive countries in Europe are doing. Already in some states, the Gov't is going after Homeschooling parents and harassing them. Shouldn't be too long now before those freedoms are taken away. Funny thing though, homeschooled kids are usually way, way smarter, better socialized and behave with more manners than the public school kids do. I have met so many that have absolutely floored me with their grace and knowledge. Maybe THAT'S what scares the Gov't. Imagine having a populace you can't control, you can't indoctrinate and push around like Serfs. Interesting, "imagine all the people...", imagine Clockwork Orange or Animal Farm, the World of the Progressive Fascist.

April 5, 2010 at 7:59 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Evolution is the ONLY theory that is supported by the evidence, what 40%, 60% 80% of Americans think doesn't change that. (what it does however is signal a real need to improve science education in our country). You should no more teach "other theories" for the diversity of life on earth then you should teach "other theories" about who was victorious in WWI or what the capital of Poland is. It's dishonest. 40% of Americans think there have been UFO abductions, for pity's sake.

Kids in school do not have enough education or experience to "debate" the issues on the leading edge of evolution, just as they do not have enough experience to debate the various proposed mechanisms for complex chemical reactions. In high school you teach the basic facts and the general parts of the theory that relate them to each other. There is NO OTHER THEORY that explains the vast amount of evidence. None. Nada. Nothing. To suggest otherwise is either lying or self-delusion.

April 5, 2010 at 8:20 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

God created evolution.

April 5, 2010 at 9:24 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Musicman, that is surely possible. Just not scientific because it cannot be falsified.

April 5, 2010 at 9:30 p.m.
ericbradbur said...

How long ago was the Scopes Monkey trial? How far have we come?

April 5, 2010 at 10:09 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

85 years. We've made it all the way to 2010. That's the best I got. I can no more prove or disprove the effects on society caused by that trial than I can visit Mars. Although, I'm sure someone will step up to the task and give his/her opinion. I might just learn a thing or two. Stay tuned...

April 5, 2010 at 10:43 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

I object to that statement that was quoted:

"the biblical myth that the universe was created by the Judeo-Christian God in 7 days."

It is just plain wrong to assume that God has any affiliation with a specific religion!

April 6, 2010 at 12:17 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

I generally stay out of this one, but...

I don't think the theory of evolution and the story of creation are mutually exclusive.

One is science, the other is philosophy. If a person attempts to use one to discredit the other, there is going to be some strife as you are comparing apples to oranges.

There isn't anything I've ever seen in the theory of evolution which makes it impossible to say that a supreme being laid out the rules of the universe in such a way as to make the rise of life and it's subsequent evolution to more complex forms a simple matter of time. LOTS OF TIME.

One day to a supreme being may be equal to 500 million earth years.

On the other hand, one does not necessarily need the touch of a supreme being to explain the self ordering of simple amino acids and what will then follow as a matter of course.

I suppose, being the multi-cultural society that we deem ourselves to be, demeaning a basic tenet of a large portion of the nation's citizens' religious beliefs as a "myth" could be understood as intolerance, and probably shouldn't be included in teaching materials. The separation between science and philosophy could be done with considerably more tact.


Belief in UFO abductions? Is the number really that high? I've been trying to get a UFO to come and pick me up for years and I've seen neither hide nor hair of them.

FWIW, I'd be a Jedi Knight if I could get my lightsabre to function correctly. LOL!

April 6, 2010 at 12:25 a.m.
mrnicecat said...

Hmm lets see....evolution verses creationism. One requires fact the other faith. So far there has not been proof of either one.

April 6, 2010 at 5:27 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Scientific theories are not proven, mrnicecat. Your post should read: one fits the evidence and explains it well, the other requires only faith.

April 6, 2010 at 6:42 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Faith is believing something you know ain't true." -- Mark Twain

April 6, 2010 at 9:22 a.m.
Lefty said...

I have an even better idea: In all the math books let's put 2+2=4 next to 2+2=5 and let the kids decide. What do mathematicians have to fear if they are so sure they are right?

We don't do that because we know it to be incorrect, and no less ridiculous than Creationism.

April 6, 2010 at 9:26 a.m.
whoknows said...

Scotty, I couldn't agree with your post more. I, too, do not think they are mutually exclusive. I love science. It is one of my favorite things to study. As well as religion and philosophy (not just Christianity, though I am a Christian. I love the study of modern and ancient, eastern and western religions). I have strong beliefs that science, religion, and philosophy can be studied in context with each other. Many physicists do this already. An entire branch of science is dedicated to this as well. Noetics. Though some people may not consider it a science (I dare to put words in lkeiths' mouth and say she probably doesn't consider it a true science, I appologize if I am wrong). What better way to explain the nature of the world than to combine the three? Philosophy and science together can come closer to answering the mystery of life, the universe and everything else (42?) than either can by itself. For, IMO, it takes as much faith to believe in a random act causing the big bang theory as it does to believe a Supreme God had something to do with it. I'm still really looking forward to what the Large Hadron Collider will do!

April 6, 2010 at 11:11 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

LOL! How did you know I was a 'she'? (you are correct) The study of Big Bang Physics is indeed close to an intersection between religion and science, but there still is a line drawn between science (falsifiable and based on evidence) with religion/philosophy (what does it mean and how do we as humans relate to it?) Maybe as a species we are not intelligent enough to figure it out, but it is so interesting. The new collider may very well bring us more information.

April 6, 2010 at 12:18 p.m.
whoknows said...

You gave yourself away in a debate a couple weeks ago about abortion rights. :) Plus, you are sometimes too logical to be a man. Anyway, I agree with your statement. We might not be intelligent enough to figure it out, but it sure does bring some good material to the table for debate. Physics, noetics, and other such sciences fascinate me because of how they do deal with the hows and whys as well. I know you are a biologist (or at least I think you are from your previous posts) and you deal more with organisms and their structure, function, evolution, origin. But despite those differences (I have heard before "If it moves, it's biology, if it smells, it's chemistry if it doesn't work, it's physics") I think they are pretty closely related in many aspects, especially in the modern study of biology which can deal in microscopic material that was once thought to be part of pysics, as they could not be seen. Biology is finding out the hows and whys and can bring them to the table with physics. I believe that those combined with a good background in philosophy can lead to more answers than we can imagine! A little off subject from the rest of my post: You mentioned UFOs and such earlier. I have no opinion on the matter other than: Just because earth is the only atmosphere we have found so far that can support life as we know it, that does not mean that there aren't other atmospheres that can support life as we don't know it. Did that make sense? :) You will never here me say that there are aliens out there, but you will also never here me say there are not. Concerning CERN and LHC: I'm waiting for the God particle.

April 6, 2010 at 1:02 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Assuming its existence, where did the God particle come from? :)

April 6, 2010 at 1:17 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So much for remaining incognito.! ;) On UFOs: I certainly think that they are possible, but to date there has been no verifiable trace. (same with ghosts) and yet a large % of Americans really believe that they exist and have interactions with us, and also believe that UFOs have visited and abducted people. With formally good TV channels resorting to sensationalism (Discovery, TLC, Science Channel etc producing crap that raises ratings) and the poor state of science education in this country, people are not skeptical, nor do they know how science works. They believe every story, commercial, fad diet etc that comes down the pipeline. When their long-held myths are challenged by science, they reject the science and the scientific process. As an educator I find this alarming.

April 6, 2010 at 1:22 p.m.
whoknows said...

Agree 100% lkeith. The gullibility of the human race is amazing. Or is it just them being too lazy to try to discover the truth? A little of both? Anyway, with all this, I still believe in the supernatural. I don't believe that any amount of science can ever satisfy the existence of everything without the presense of a supreme being. As Sailorman posted above, where did the God particle come from? Where did any of it come from? Could these particles which combined to create the big bang have existed for millions of (what we call) years before it happened? How? What created them? In my search for the logic behind this, I have never been able to justify it all just happening. In my logic, I have to say "There was a higher power behind it all, or it could not have happened." Now, did that higher power cause the events of the big bang theory? Did that higher power, through those events, coax the creation of all that we know (and don't know) and allow it to evolve to everything we now can see? Beats me. Makes sense though, to me. That's another fascinating thing about logic, however. It can take you down so many paths...

April 6, 2010 at 1:49 p.m.
south5590 said...

I can't believe the crazy comments posted about this topic. The school board should put the question before the parents and let the 80% of Christians decide- MAJORITY RULES! Atheists can have ANY book they so desire removed from our schools when the book questions their theories, even though they represent a smaller percentage of the population as a whole. So, why are we treating Christians as second-class citizens when our country was founded on these principles.

April 7, 2010 at 8:24 p.m.
rolando said...

Because they are Christians, south5590. Why else? If they were Muslims [which we all may be one of these days], they wouldn't even be mentioned.

How many here are criticizing the Koran? It says the same, you know.

What if the guy in Knoxville was a Muslim? You think the school board/principal would even question his objection [before falling over themselves accepting it] much less find against it? Don't kid yourselves.

Christians have already lost the jihad in this country. We just don't know it yet. Our own people, including our President, are attacking it while overtly and covertly supporting Islam.

So be it.

Sometimes I am quite glad I won't live to see the takeover.

Aside for lkeith...I strongly suspected your gender or chosen gender sometime back. It was either that or still young. Too emotional when the chips are down... but do a good job of it just the same. [God, that sounds patronizing. Isn't meant that way.] A father figure with a strong personality in your background, perhaps? [Sorry, thumbnail psyche sketches suck.]

But then, does gender really matter on this forum?

April 7, 2010 at 9:16 p.m.
dwkapell said...

God did not create man. Man created God. Man created creationism to satisfy his need for dogma with which to lead the supplicant masses. look how well it worked. Now people who don't question, and only selectively hear and "believe" are led down the path to intellectual depravity, fact-aversion, confused thoughts, blind obedience to religion, ideological tunnel-vision and/or Republicanism.

April 9, 2010 at 10:15 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

rolando, I am not young, nor am I emotional. Your behavior on the thread that drove me to anger (and I am very slow to anger) was ridiculous: refusing to address the actual claims and evidence (it was like trying to argue with my kids when they were 12 or 13). I stuck by my stand on this issue because I am right (and you are wrong). There are some topics where opinion is not what determines the truth, and this is one. That is why, south559, the opinion of 80% of the parents will not matter in this case. 80% of parents deciding that the Holocaust is a myth would not change that fact that it happened and teaching that it didn't would be dishonest. 80% of parents not "believing" in evolution does not change the fact that it happened, and that there is not another scientific "theory" to debate. Teaching anything else is lying.

Now, let me say that a science teacher has no business bashing religion in a science class. Calling the Genesis story a myth is not "bashing" religion. It is stating fact: the Genesis story, while beautiful and interesting, is just a story, dating back to a time when humans knew so little about their world. It does not make it "false" unless someone tries to call it "history" or "science". The story of Hamlet is deep, layered and full of good lessons, but it did not actually happen. It was invented by Shakespeare. Most Christians do not believe that the earth is 8000 years old, there was a garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve were real people. (who had two sons, and, wait-they married who? where did their wives come from?) There was a large regional flood some 10,000 years ago, resulting in flood stories in all of the cultures that sprang up from that area, but to believe in a world-wide flood is silly because there is NO evidence to support it.

April 9, 2010 at 10:48 a.m.

Ike: "On UFOs: I certainly think that they are possible..." Rich, rich. The Creator is a myth, but Aliens and UFOS, are "possible". I also knew you are a woman, for the same reasons as Rolando plus you can be very nasty (towards my posts primarily). You and nucanuck (who I think is female yet, I also believe if he is a he, he's a Metro), speak like Planned Parenthood Feminists on the abortion issue and believe you both are unrefutable 'experts' when you post on other issues, mostly with little to no objectivity or unbiased research and little real-time experience. That kind of thinking screams IVORY TOWER and ELITIST.

The notion that women nowadays are akin to "goddesses" with absolute compassion and nurturing for all-is absolute nonsense. Some of the worst and nastiest human beings in History, especially nowadays, are women.

And that segues into this for you, dwkapell who said,

"Now people who don't question, and only selectively hear and "believe" are led down the path to intellectual depravity, fact-aversion, confused thoughts, blind obedience to religion, ideological tunnel-vision and/or Republicanism".

Gee, that sounds exactly like the millions of minions in the West who vote for Big Daddy Gov'ts, Marxists, Progressives, and the "scientists" of Global warming who lied, fudged and connived to deceive-all the above could be a Religion too, eh? You don't read much do you dwk? See the History of Progressivism in Europe and America in the last century. It describes Left-Progs to a tee.

The tunnel vision, corruption and blindness within the DNC has now become legend for the majority of Americas who have finally woken up to some degree. And just what ideology, Master do you serve?

Unfortunately, today our societies are filled with such people who have lifetime careers tied into government largesse, fueled by money-grubbing Unions like SEIU and the National Teacher's Union. Our Big Gov't, universities and research orgs are filled with parasites who take taxpayer monies to study nonsensical, useless subjects like the climate clods did or the 'social-scientists' studying the dating patterns of female students. All in the name of Art, Science and Technology. Trillions wasted and THEY are the Experts? One doesn't know whether to laugh or cry at this folly.

April 9, 2010 at 11:34 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

First, canary, I am not a member of a teacher's union. Second, I don't think that all research is worthy of funding (there is a lot of crap out there being studied in universities, but not all of it is crap) There are plenty of valid scientific studies going on, and yes, the people that do these studies are experts in their fields. Those fields can be narrow (my husband's field is, because so few people study the animals he does, so yes, he's an expert and people do consult with him if they need info on this animal)

Third, yes, UFOs are possible. However, the likelihood of us meeting them are almost nil. There are billions of stars out there-there is a good chance that a planet that can sustain life is there as well. I never said the creator was a myth, but the Genesis story is.

I have NEVER claimed or even insinuated that I was an expert on anything (and you will not be able to find a post where I have). But I do know more about science than most laypeople, and I feel confident commenting on what I see posted here. I have sources, primary, secondary and personal, to back up what I say on this issue. You on the other hand are willing to spout nonsense on this subject, so I am inclined to be skeptical of everything you post, since I can't tell for sure when you are posting factual stuff or BS.

I have been reading extensively about the AGW emails that were hacked (SCOTTYM are you there?) and I am not reading anything that disputes the conclusion that the earth is warming. As to the cause, that was more difficult to support, so I haven't gotten that far. I am not a climate scientist, so I have to read interpretations, which have less value.

April 9, 2010 at 12:32 p.m.
Sailorman said...


Always enjoy reading your posts. Re AGW - I don't doubt the earth is warming. Natural cycles, nothing stays the same etc etc. I do have a problem with all this "man caused" (or should it be human caused for PC purposes - or maybe people caused since human has "man" embedded but I digress :) ) brouhaha. The EPA declaring carbon dioxide a pollutant? The mind boggles and the stench of government funding assails the nostrils. To paraphrase an adage "One volcano wipes out a thousand Priuses, or Priora if you want to be grammatically correct'" Despite all the the stupid things we do, I'll wait for somebody to actually prove we're killing the planet before I panic. Scary talk doesn't get it.

April 9, 2010 at 1:13 p.m.

Ike: Just because the "Christians" you hang out with may be or may not be scripturally sound, doesn't mean that "most Christians do not believe the earth is 8,000 years old". Where did you take/obtain that poll? I trust it surveyed deeply and honestly true Christians worldwide?

Whether you believe your science or UFO myths are the be-all and end-all, troubles me not. When you and your kind want to grab our share of the tax dollars and ram your theories down the throats of vulnerable kids, it does. Many folks have no choice when they have to send their kids to public, union-run indoctrination centers. They would prefer private, religious schools which are far better and produce much more intelligent, well-rounded human beings, yet some have no money to pay for that type of superior education.

You are overly emotional and often resort to insulting me when it's a subject you, in your Ivory Tower know nothing about or have any real experience of. Like the Left believes, that History means nothing, you are woefully ignorant of the truth and viability of History. Your mind is set into a concrete form called 'science-tech' and nothing else matters to you. It's kind of sad, that many in modern society are so educated within a one-track, linear drone-world, yet exhibit no imagination, or creativity, which is the other side of genius.

That there is mystery and the unknown is a good thing. That we humans do not have all of the answers is not a bad thing. Our minds/brains are a perfect example of a God-created 'substance' that cannot be explained away by mere humans. Cannot be compartmentalized, analyzed, micro-managed and digested or figured out under the microscopes of the 'experts' or the Left-wing ideologues. Sweet Justice, that.

(btw, the stupid comment from the other guy about how did families start? How didja think they did? The Lord created man, woman and sex. Until just before Noah's time, the first peoples, who had pure lines had to have sex to make babies. The earth was purer, they lived longer and had lots of babies. You do the math, when people grow and expand into tribes, there eventually becomes a large enough population to separate and diversify. After that time, when people and tribes grew and spread out, incest became outlawed in ancient Hebrew society. For good, scientific reasons as we know today. Animals and humans today do not have 'pure' bloodlines and look at what can happen when incest occurs and babies are born within the same family).

April 9, 2010 at 1:46 p.m.

Your backwards take on human history, along with the other guy up there, shows you all did a cursory, little to none, biased look at the belief systems out there regarding Creation. The ancient Hebrew nation, before they were Israel or called Hebrew, were the most humble and had some who were righteous before the Lord at that time. They were chosen, despite their small stature among the nations and despite their known weaknesses. They were given the Law and the Prophets at a time when civilizations (like Mesopotamia and Babylon-and where are they today?) were practicing blood sacrifices and killing their young ritually to appease their pantheon of gods. To equate the origin of the Law and the morality therein, that is the basis for all western civilizations and our laws of justice (our Constitution), shows not only extreme bias but extreme, willful ignorance. It also highlights why the Left-Progressives have been trying for 100 years to do away with our unique Laws and documents.

Explaining or wishing away the truth does not deter from the fact the ancient Hebrews wrote honestly and truthfully of what they saw, experienced and knew happened. They were not stupid, primitive primates who did nothing but grunt mono-syllabically to each other. They were the ancestors of the Jewish people today who (even to their own, sometimes wonder) are many of the most brilliant scientists, authors, geniuses, physicists, artists, the world. People who, as their (documented) ancestor Abraham spoke in words that came from the God who "visited" with him and them, teaching them everything they needed to live and survive and create, said, "I will bless your generations, over all the earth and for all the generations forever, many nations will come from you and they will be blessed, because of your (Abraham's) righteousness..." Genesis.

April 9, 2010 at 1:51 p.m.

These people were scribes and keepers of the Law unlike any we have today. They are good at what they do today because they were kept to incredibly high standards of writing the law down, orally and scripturally keeping track of each tribe, it's leaders and their sons and daughters, way back then. The Torah (the Law) portion of the Bible is exact for a reason. Archaeologists for centuries have dug up ancient Hebrew and Semitic cities, objects, scrolls, large and small, for centuries, that proved Israel and The Jews existed for all of those thousands of years. As a historian, I know that in the last few hundred years, if we have true, examined, unobjective eyewitness accounts from just two or three witnesses, it is something of a "find", it's also a rarity. In Abraham's and Noah's days, there were thousands and millions of eyewitnesses, including from other, nearby civilizations that documented accounts of the Hebrews in their writings, art and architecture.

Other nations, including those who formed after them, borrowed and corrupted the original writings. The Q'ran and the Hindi writings are but two examples. The North and South American peoples also 'borrowed' the stories and changed them over time.

Whether primitive or modern, humans have a void inside their souls that needs to be filled, many of them know not with. They did not "invent" their Creator, He was with the Ancient Hebrews and was in relationship with them, until they broke their ties with Him. Thus the void and thus the need, even to this day. The records of the Hebrew nation remain true and viable to this day. The words spoken by their prophets thousands of years ago came true and are continuing to, to this day. This is how you will know them, by my words spoken from their mouths...and by the truth of Prophecy, I am the Spirit of Prophecy..." (Jesus in the NT or New Covenant). The Ancient Covenant kept with the people of old has segued into and complemented the New Covenant drawing "many nations" of Believers. Thus, it matters little whether an Atheist or one who practices paganism believes this "story" or not. There are certain inalienable Truths, that time and History prove, over and over. The Lord and the Words of His spoken to humans (Hebrews) thousands of years ago, still exist today, still written on scrolls and now, in books, still studied, and still coming True. That's evidence enough for hundreds of millions worldwide, from every nation, every tribe, every language, every economic and gender/racial group, every true Believer who has the evidence in their life. That's more than enough, thank you very much.

April 9, 2010 at 1:53 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks, Sailorman. I do agree that the country-wide changes mandated by the government are a mistake, and I am sure that very little is possible given the political polarity. Like Evolution, this will never be proven. Unlike Evolution, AGW is way more complicated and involves predicting the future instead of just explaining the past. Either we have an impact or we don't. If we do nothing, and temperatures moderate, that will falsify the theory that global climate change is a direct result of carbon balance shifted by humans. If we do nothing and the climate changes continue to accelerate, well, we are pretty resourceful-I'm sure we'll figure something out. Then everyone can say "we told you so", which of course accomplishes nothing.

I predict that rising fuel prices will force us to change our ways (actually, that is already quietly happening-everyone likes to save money), and the climate change will slow. Then everyone will shift to arguing whether or not the changes are what made the climate moderate! Gotta be something for us to quibble about...

April 9, 2010 at 1:58 p.m.
Lefty said...

It is a real shame that the intelligent dialogue that I enjoy reading here is so frequently overrun by the hateful spewing "canary." It is his type of chatter that is creating such a division in this country. The worst part is that none of it is original. It seems it might be appropriate to change your name to parakeet since you seem to focus on mimicking the talking heads on the far right.

This is a serious subject that could use open debate, but frequently we can't have such a debate due to the venom that comes from the fringes. Too often those who have something to add are attacked with meaningless political talking points, or name-calling (Using the phrase "ivory tower" just indicates that you are acknowledging that your opponent is much smarter than you...some people go on to prove it with name calling).

My point in this was to say, why not leave the hatred out and try to have intelligent conversation?

April 9, 2010 at 2:32 p.m.
MountainJoe said...

Good luck getting intelligent conversation out of canary, Lefty. He has much more fun calling names ... why bother with logical reasoning?

As a Ron Paul supporter I prefer to consider myself a "thinking conservative" and welcome reasoned debate from all sides, but prefer to stay out of mud-slinging contests whenever possible.

April 9, 2010 at 4:38 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

lkeithlu | On: April 9, 2010 at 12:32 p.m

(SCOTTYM are you there?)

Sometimes. :)

I'll second Sailorman's reply.

The climate changes as a matter of course on this ol'rock. The temps go up sometimes, and they go down sometimes. The drivers are VERY poorly understood. Proclamations of imminent disaster are what the enviro-mental folks do. They've been wrong every single time so far.

There was no run-a-way global warming in the deep past when the CO2 concentration was over 3000ppm. There will be none if it doubles to 750ppm in the next few hundred years.

AGW is just another leftist religion being used in an attempt to control the masses and redistribute wealth.

If those who study evolutionary changes in primates all of a sudden started proclaiming that humans were going to grow wings and start flying 100 years from now, they would be laughed at. The climate 'scientists" are doing something very much like that, and deserve our scorn.

April 9, 2010 at 5:42 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

As always, Scotty, an intelligent reply. Glad you were on hand.

April 9, 2010 at 7:26 p.m.
MountainJoe said...

Ditto on the AGW comments, ScottyM. It's just a bunch of BS designed to centralize control of, well, just about everything. Hell, humans exhale CO2 so let's all look forward to a tax on breathing....

April 9, 2010 at 8:20 p.m.
Sailorman said...


you think this is bad??!! Except for a few who shall remain nameless, discussion is usually relatively high brow. Take a look at the Memphis paper to see what incivilty looks like

April 9, 2010 at 8:34 p.m.

Lefty, Ike, and MJ proved my point that when Left-Progs have no evidence of the truth of History, they hurl insults. Lefty, you need to look in the mirror of your kind. You guys are far more vile and violent/nasty than the far right. Prove where I said anything above that isn't true. Do you have any idea what an Ivory Tower is? People like Ike have no idea what and where reality is except in their own narrow, little world.

Ike and MJ, nothing else but insults eh? You guys prove my points and MJ, get over the marijuana disagreement I had with you. You have no facts, so you insult like the worst of the Left. Ike, Scotty essentially said the same thing I have over and over re: AGW. When I cited facts, you hurled insults at that time. You suck up to him because you KNOW Scotty can go head to head with you re: science and you always lose. Think when you pony up to the bar with like-minded Leftists, ya'll just hurl at me and feel good about it, eh? Patheticos.

April 9, 2010 at 10:33 p.m.
MountainJoe said...

Canary, sounds like you are the one who hasn't gotten over the debate with MJ over, well, MJ. You are the one who keeps bringing it up in completely irrelevant situations like this one. Hell, I agree with you about the bogus AGW scam; why don't you stick to the issues under discussion?

And I have no facts? You are the author of these gems of scientific wisdom, above:

"Until just before Noah's time, the first peoples, who had pure lines had to have sex to make babies. The earth was purer, they lived longer and had lots of babies.... Animals and humans today do not have 'pure' bloodlines...."

Care to provide a scientific explanation of "purity" of bloodlines as expounded in your above comments? I'm waiting with bated breath....

April 10, 2010 at 12:17 a.m.

Check out the medical/archaeological/historical archives for purity of bloodlines within families/races/tribes MJ. The last Race with racial purity that ended decades ago when intermarriage began in their tribes, was the Aboriginals in Australia/New Zealand. Our ancestors, through Abraham and Noah are proof enough for me and millions of others that inter-relations within families worked, but stopped early on in human/Biblical history-for a good reason. I cannot give you what you do not want to have or know other than that. You know Ike's the 'scientist' and I am the Believer, so why ask me? Ask my Master, He created us.

April 10, 2010 at 9:05 a.m.
SavartiTN said...

MJ has a point, canary. By pure bloodlines are you saying that Cain and Able had children together? That would be an act of God. Did they have sex with their mother who was apparently the only female around. As you can see, canary, that comment about pure bloodlines just sounds foolish.

As for where the Jews came from, I have often wondered if they are the remnants of the Pharoah Ankhnaten's court. Ankhnaten became a believer of a one and only God after the mysterious death of his older brother. He removed his court to the desert to establish a new start...away from the polytheistic beliefs of the previous pharoahs. He closed the temples of the other gods. Needless to say, some people were not happy.

After Ankhnaten's death, the administration under his son, Tutankhamen, reverted back to polytheism and attempted to wipe out any reference to Ankhnaten. I can't believe that Ankh's followers would give up that easy and who is to say that they didn't take off and become the people who wandered the desert for 40 years. They were well educated and could write. They believed in one God. They later established temples similar to the ones in Egypt. They wrote laws. But the most fascinating fact of all...Ankh's brother was TutMOSES. History may not be what we think it is. After all, people thought the earth to be flat for a long, long time.

But back to the subject of the article. Maybe I will go to church tomorrow and protest the use of the Bible in Sunday School. After all, it promotes the killing of disobedient children and generally any other people that disagree with it. Couldn't that "mislead, belittle, and discourage" students into thinking that their parents might harm them? How frightening must that be!!

April 10, 2010 at 10:51 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"I cannot give you what you do not want to have or know other than that. You know Ike's the 'scientist' and I am the Believer, so why ask me? Ask my Master, He created us."

canaryspeak for "I have no evidence to back up this statement. No DNA, no geneologies, no historical records (other than the Bible). I don't need evidence anyway, because it makes 'sense' to me and supports my religious beliefs."

April 11, 2010 at 10:59 a.m.
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