published Tuesday, August 31st, 2010

Arson in Murfreesboro

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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blackwater48 said...

I cannot fathom the logic that concludes that we must combat intolerant religious fanaticism with intolerant religious fanaticism.

So much for the land of "Liberty." Home of the "Free?" Not so much.

I'm tired of screaming READ THE CONSTITUTION!

All of you opposed to the so-called GZM should write an essay here in the comments about the First Amendment. Read it, contemplate it, and then tell us all what you think it means in 100 words.

August 31, 2010 at 12:09 a.m.
Tax_Payer said...

It is either us or them. The Muslim want to rule the world.

August 31, 2010 at 12:27 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Explain the First Amendment.

August 31, 2010 at 12:42 a.m.
Tax_Payer said...

Liberals forgot about 9/11. It was okay when they bought their religion to this country, but what happened when it was time to get right with their Allah?

It will happen again, wait and see.

August 31, 2010 at 1:12 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Nice try and changing the subject, Tax_Payer.

I didn't forget 9/11.

I lived in NYC for a while and visited often. We used to take the subway down the WTC to get discount theater tickets. We had family living in Greenwich Village during the attack.

Explain the First Amendment.

I dare you.

August 31, 2010 at 1:25 a.m.
nucanuck said...

Tax_Payer,

Maybe Muslims don't want us ruling their world. Imagine for a moment that you were a 20 year old Middle Easterner and what your view of America might be. From their perspective we must appear as brutal bullies trying to inflict our wishes on them.

First,the creation of Israel in Palestine followed by an uneven policy in the Middle East has painted the US as anti-Muslim. It is we that have been trying to rule the world and we need to stop.

August 31, 2010 at 1:26 a.m.
alprova said...

Tax_Payer wrote: "It is either us or them. The Muslim want to rule the world."


Is that a fact?

I know that's the popular theory out there, yet I see no evidence that the Muslims in this country are aggressively engaged in converting our nation over to Islam.

Where are the websites on the net that warn us to convert or die? Where are they photographed or recorded to be on street corners harassing people? When has anyone complained about them knocking on doors at all hours of the day? Has anyone complained about receiving a phone call from a Muslim?

Nope, but I can sure point you to plenty of Christian related examples of ALL the above.

I've been on this Earth for 51 years now, and I can't recall so much as one time that I have encountered a Muslim who even tried to convert me to their religion, much less made it clear to me that I would die if I refused to do so.

And yes, I have met many people in this country who followed the Islamic faith. I've had in-depth conversations for hours with several of them. I find them to be just as fascinating to converse with, as I do any other RATIONAL person of faith.

Now on the other hand, for some strange reason, over the past two decades, there have been several people who find their way back to my home, a full quarter mile from a public roadway, disregarding completely a half-dozen signs warning them that unless they are friend, family, or invited, that they are trespassing on private property and that they are to turn around and leave.

Who are these people, who have violated my space approximately two dozen times? Lily white proselytizers, of many Christian religions, who seem to have little regard whatsoever for property rights.

As a fellow Christian, I am not unpleasant to these people because they want to discuss Christianity. I am unpleasant to these people because they have disrespected my privacy and have made a conscience decision to land on my doorstep without invitation to do so.

The nerve of some people.

So when someone uses that oft repeated line, "it's either us or them," who's kidding who? I've received more than a few dire warnings issued by Christians who decided to get in my face, because I reject their extreme and intolerant belief structures.

Rhetoric is never fact. Fear-mongering is a tactic used by the ignorant and indoctrinated, who cower in fear of that which they do not understand, nor care one whit to tolerate, for whatever reason exists in their mind for doing so.

August 31, 2010 at 1:35 a.m.
moonpie said...

Up early this morning and saw Tax_Payer's tacit defense of the criminal vandalism in Murphreesboro.

He/she invokes Klan-speak from the 60s by not condemning the act, but by making an end run to imply the act is somehow justified... at the same time leaving some wiggle room to deny supporting criminal activity.

In the 60s, Christian Klan folk acted like the ends justified the means. To keep the world safe for whites, they fought to subjugate and segregate blacks. Bombings and vandalism, beatings were tools they used. They bombed and burned black churches, killed black children, and somehow must have justified in their own minds to continue bombing.

The act in Murphreesboro probably isn't the result of Klan activity. In fact, it could turn out to be kids.

Yet to offer tacit support to any such activity is just wrong.

Tax_Payer. It's stimple. Either you support the First Amendment, or you don't. Either you support the criminal activity, or your don't.

In America, individuals have certain rights until they commit a crime and then certain rights (but not all) are taken from them.

In America, there is a right to peaceably assemble.

August 31, 2010 at 4:42 a.m.
Duford said...

Jihadists will stop terrorizing us as soon as we pull out of the Middle East, shut down our bases, and withdraw foreign aid from Isreal.

Until then, the fervor on both sides will continue.

August 31, 2010 at 5:31 a.m.
Tax_Payer said...

Sure I support the first amendment. Just make sure the FBI plants a couple informants in there to track the Jihad movement.

August 31, 2010 at 5:36 a.m.
acerigger said...

I guess the Murfreesboro mosque is "too close" to ground zero,like the ones in Fla.,Cal.,Ky.,etc.

August 31, 2010 at 5:48 a.m.
Tax_Payer said...

acerigger, I think Murfreesboro is where the Baptist Pope is. Kind of like trying that in Vatican City, it just can't happen.

August 31, 2010 at 6:27 a.m.
woody said...

Your depiction is 'spot on' once again, Clay. And yet, living as close to Nashville as I do, I also heard about more than a half dozen Baptist churches that were broken into during the same time span.

What happened at the building site was terrible, to say the least, however, I wonder..why were all the cameras and protesters focused on one act of desecration and not all of the others?

I am not anti-Muslim, but I am for equal protection under the law. And yet, just this morning it was announced that patrols would be 'stepped up' in the vicinity of the proposed mosque site, while nothing else was reported concerning the break ins at all of those Christian churches.

I will gladly be outraged at what is being perpetrated against friendly Muslims. I just ask the same conviction from them for their Christian counter-parts.

Now, where's my bagel, Woody

August 31, 2010 at 6:35 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Woody, were those churches broken into by people who "hate" Christianity? Or by common thieves looking for something to steal? If someone broke into a mosque to steal something, that's crime. It would not really make the news unless it was in an area not known for crime. However, if someone vandalized a church because it was a church, hoping to intimidate the church-goers that would be the same as the incident in Murfreesboro.

August 31, 2010 at 6:50 a.m.
hambone said...

It's hard for me to put my feelings in words this morning but I will try. The "patriots" and those that support these acts. The politicians and tv talking heads like heck and limpbaugh should be put on the first plane available to Bagdad "nakid" Should have to explain to the population there how their brand of "liberty" is better.

August 31, 2010 at 7:24 a.m.
EaTn said...

There's no excuse for ignorance, bigotry and hate, nor sadly a cure either. It's fueled by opportunistic politicians and broadcasters who depend on the gullible narrow minded to keep them in business, and business is booming. There's still lots of garbage in the pile to burn before it snuffs itself out.

August 31, 2010 at 7:51 a.m.
alprova said...

Duford wrote: "Jihadists will stop terrorizing us as soon as we pull out of the Middle East, shut down our bases, and withdraw foreign aid from Isreal.

Until then, the fervor on both sides will continue."


While I would not be opposed to bringing home all of our military from the Middle East, blaming Israel for the Jihadists is very much like blaming Israel for Hitler.

Any issue that Jihadists have with the United States is due to many instances where our leaders have stuck their noses into the affairs of that region of the world, the support of Israel being the least of them.

Muslims in this country are not responsible for 9/11, nor are the people of Israel responsible for the death of Christ, and anyone who thinks otherwise is...well...pretty much supporting that argument that all Jewish people should all be put to death for ancient history.

It seems to me, that all the irrational thinking Jihadists are not born and bred in the Middle East. Some of them are born right here in the United States, and the Conservative agenda at the moment to oppose those who practice another religion, if it is not stopped in it's tracks and soon, threatens to become a repeat of the same kind of crap that occurred in this country back in the late 40's.

Hate is hate, even when you hide behind a Bible to do it.

August 31, 2010 at 8:03 a.m.
Snooksie said...

I think the controversy on the mosque at ground zero is fueling the fire so to speak on the others around the US that are also in the early stages of being built. I think the controversy on all the others has always been there it is just being heard more now because of the ground zero issue.

August 31, 2010 at 8:10 a.m.
woody said...

lkeithlu, it would appear you are a natural-born, card-carrying 'hair-splitter'.

Now, while I'll grant you there may be separate levels of Hades for those who desecrate churches, synagogues, mosques, or temples for different reasons, but that is a question best answered by a higher authority on "Judgement Day."

My earlier query was aimed at the 'here and now'. It also only begged the answer as to why more importance was placed on one such incident and not so much on the others.

Without knowing the answer to your question pertaining to whether or not the perpetrator(s) acted out of "hate", I have to question why that should matter at this point?

A church is a church and a site is a site. Are you trying to tell me the actions (no matter the motivation) leveled at machinery on a vacant lot should be viewed as just as dastardly or moreso than than the unwanted intrusions visited upon many houses of worship?

I've heard that 'hair-splitting' is an art and that if you are really efficient at it you too could either run for Congress or become an ACLU lawyer.

Stay in touch, I'd like to know which direction you take, Woody

August 31, 2010 at 8:16 a.m.
whatsthefuss said...

CAN MUSLIMS BE GOOD AMERICANS?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia For 20 years. The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia .

Religiously - no.. . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah Except Islam (Quran, 2:256)(Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he Turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make Friends with Christians or Jews .

Politically - no... . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual Leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , The great Satan.

Domestically - no. .. . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and Beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 )

Intellectually - no. . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he Believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does Not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot Co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' The Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to As Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in the Quran's 99 Excellent names.

Therefore, after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be Very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously Cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand This, the better it will be for our country and our future.

The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. ....

August 31, 2010 at 8:17 a.m.
OllieH said...

Woody- you have a good point about the other churches that were targets of crime, but there is a big difference between general crime and acts of hate and intimidation.

This particular construction site has now been subjected to multiple episodes of vandalism. The sign out front has been defaced by hateful graffiti twice, and actually broken in half another time. And although only one of the construction vehicles was set on fire, several others were doused with accelerant. Authorities think the perpetrator might have been frightened away during the attempted arson.

Perhaps the repetition of those criminal acts, plus the heated emotion of the forces opposed to the Islamic community center in Murfreesboro, gives this case a motive that would distinguish it from the other incidents you mentioned. Break ins and criminal trespass are certainly nothing to sneeze at, but I seriously doubt that any of those cases were acts of intimidation.

August 31, 2010 at 8:21 a.m.
whatsthefuss said...

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God

August 31, 2010 at 8:24 a.m.
OllieH said...

whatsthefuss- I would ask you if anti-Islamic bigots can be good Americans? That answer is also no.

August 31, 2010 at 8:26 a.m.
hambone said...

alprova, We should get the Jahovah Whitneses to deliever the mail. The regular postman would only have to work saturday.

Woody, you must be bald headed!!

August 31, 2010 at 8:34 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

The cartoon strains at a gnat and swallows a camel. Sure, catch the arsonist and punish him. (Better to make him pay for all the damage, than to send him to jail at taxpayer expense: restitution, not prison.) Meanwhile, no church buildings are ever vandalized in Saudi Arabia because there aren't any, by the evil laws of that country. In the world as a whole, Muslim persecution of Christians is pervasive. Can Mr Bennett find in his pen to denounce it? Can he grow from a reader of national news to a worldwide, and also to a more local, cartoonist, or is he mostly in a rut? And why are Saudi laws evil? Because they worship an idol, a Sonless god supposedly purely one all alone, poor thing, and supposedly far above the world, not incarnate in Jesus Christ. Instead of one god, one prophet, one ayatollah, Christians worship triune Jehovah, balancing unity and diversity, "the one and the many" (read R. J. Rushdoony's excellent book of that title)--the perfect model for politics. Instead of a god far off, Christians worship Jesus Christ come in the flesh, in all points tempted like as we are yet without sin, paying with his life for his own program instead of crucifying the taxpayers as alprova with his quarter-mile driveway likes to advocate: truly generous at His own expense instead of bogusly generous at ours.

August 31, 2010 at 8:48 a.m.
Snooksie said...

I was just a little kid so I dont really know but I was wondering if there was a big out cry of hatred and bigotry when the Good Shepard Lutheran Church on Belvoir Ave. was burned down at the hands of an arsonist. Maybe some of you on here could answer that for me.

August 31, 2010 at 8:53 a.m.
whatsthefuss said...

Dear OllieH, When you ask someone a question and then answer it for them, have you really asked a question???? As for anti-islamic bigots, I imagine Nick Berg was one during his last minute of life. Perhaps you being the kind, understanding and compassionate person you are, you would have been willing to trade places with this young man before his death. Or is it OK they murdered him because he was a JEW??? Now that is what is called a question. I will not answer it for you because I do not know how or what you think. It is presumptuous of me to imagine what Mr. Berg thought but it should give some insight as to how and what I think. Have any kind of day you want. We live in AMERICA!!

August 31, 2010 at 8:56 a.m.
concernedjoe said...

I don't defend what happened in Murfreesboro. The reason is fear. People have seen airliners fly into buildings. They see how women are mistreated in muslim-ruled countries. They have seen how muslims enslave non-muslims. The have seen the violence. They don't want to see it here.
Many muslims have come to this country seeking liberty and they are welcome. Those who would enslave us are not.

August 31, 2010 at 8:58 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

woody, Ollie's answer is exactly what I would say, although he articulates it better.

There is a difference. Now, when satan worshippers target your church for vandalism, I'll say that it's the same. Until that happens, break-ins to steal are not motivated by hate for Christians, but by opportunity. Therefore they are not the same. Sad, yes, but all crime is a shame, regardless of the target. Vandalism of this sort is meant to intimidate and interfere with freedom of religion. I doubt the people who break into a church to steal have the goal of intimidation.

August 31, 2010 at 9:24 a.m.
alprova said...

Woody wrote: "...I also heard about more than a half dozen Baptist churches that were broken into during the same time span...just this morning it was announced that patrols would be 'stepped up' in the vicinity of the proposed mosque site, while nothing else was reported concerning the break ins at all of those Christian churches."


Woody, where did you get your information and...where were all the Baptist churches located that were broken into?

Burglaries of churches are rather common, as they are left unattended for days at a time. The acts are rarely motivated by those considered to be anti-Christian. And of course, no one has been actively engaged in protesting the existence of any Baptist churches in Murphreesboro, as far as I know that is.

The act of vandalism that occurred the other day at the Mosque site, IS considered at this time to be an act committed by those who did so because they are opposed to Islamics being allowed to build that Mosque in their community.

Whatever the case, if there is currently an ongoing rash of burglaries of churches, I'm sure that patrols of them are being stepped up, even if it has not been announced.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the property destroyed the other day, did not belong to the Mosque. It belonged to a contractor who was hired to build the Mosque.

The piece of equipment that was torched was valued at about $200,000 or more. That dictates a little more of a response by law enforcement, in terms of hopefully preventing a repeat act, don't you think?

I think that to criticize law enforcement for stepping up their efforts of protecting the Mosque site, over burglarized Baptist churches is a little misplaced.

Now...if Baptist churches start being torched in the middle of the night, I'm right there with you.

August 31, 2010 at 9:41 a.m.
HiDef said...

CAN ATHEISTS BE GOOD AMERICANS?

Theologically - no. . . . Because they have no allegiance to any god or higher power.

Religiously - no.. . . Because they don't practice any religion at all.

Scripturally - no. . . Because they don't have a bible to read or a book of morals to guide them.

Geographically - no . Because they are surrounded by churches in a "Christian nation".

Socially - no. . . Because they can't talk with Christians about miracles or being saved or last Sunday's church service.

Politically - no... . . Because seriously, how many openly atheistic people hold a major political office in the U.S.?

Domestically - no. .. . Because typically they are liberals and believe in gay marriage.

Intellectually - no. . Because they are shallow and uneducated in the teachings of Christ.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because they believe that our journey on earth ends when we die.

Spiritually - no.. . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God, they remain silent.

Well, lets start getting rid of all the atheists too whatsthefuss. Oh, how about the Mormon's also? Don't they do some of that polygamy stuff? Can't have that, makes you a bad American. By the way, do you even know anybody that's a Muslim, whatsthefuss? Ever sat down and had a conversation with one of them?

Anyway, the amount of paranoia that the center in NY has stirred up among folks in America is really scary and very sad. It has been a good test however, for those that have talked the talk about intolerance and are now being asked to walk the walk. So far, I'm not impressed.

August 31, 2010 at 9:47 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Oh, dear, HiDef. They are coming for me next!

August 31, 2010 at 9:56 a.m.
alprova said...

AndrewLohr wrote: "...Meanwhile, no church buildings are ever vandalized in Saudi Arabia because there aren't any, by the evil laws of that country. In the world as a whole, Muslim persecution of Christians is pervasive."


And your point is...what? THIS country has Constitutional provisions that GUARANTEE the right of anyone to practice the religion of one's choice, so long as their religious rituals do not bring harm to another citizen or animal.

Contrasting our rights to those of other countries that DO NOT allow such freedoms, does not make a case for disallowing religious expression in THIS country.


"Can Mr Bennett find in his pen to denounce it? Can he grow from a reader of national news to a worldwide, and also to a more local, cartoonist, or is he mostly in a rut?"


Do you mean like the pointless one that you seem to be stuck in?


"And why are Saudi laws evil? Because they worship an idol, a Sonless god supposedly purely one all alone, poor thing, and supposedly far above the world, not incarnate in Jesus Christ. Instead of one god, one prophet, one ayatollah, Christians worship triune Jehovah, balancing unity and diversity..."


Try to focus on the simple fact that your religious opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. You can no more prove that your beliefs are true and correct than they can.

But in THIS country, you are entitled to hold them all day long, free from the fear of persecution. Your opinions are widely held by others as well in this country.

What you do not retain the right to do, is to exert force upon others, through any measure, to make them share your opinions.


"Instead of a god far off, Christians worship Jesus Christ come in the flesh, in all points tempted like as we are yet without sin, paying with his life for his own program instead of crucifying the taxpayers as alprova with his quarter-mile driveway likes to advocate: truly generous at His own expense instead of bogusly generous at ours."


Maybe you can read that sentence and make sense of it. I sure couldn't.

I noticed that I somehow was cited in the middle of it, but am left scratching my head as to what it is that you were attempting to convey about my driveway or myself.

The point I made was simple. No one has a right in this country to proselytize to others. No one has a right to violate the property rights of others.

Muslim people in this nation respect property rights and the right to privacy, so far as I can tell. I'm wide open to any evidence to the contrary. But...I think I'm rather solid in my position on this one.

I'm sorry and I know it hurts to admit it, but American Muslims are far more respectful of others when it comes to that.

August 31, 2010 at 10:24 a.m.
Duford said...

Al,

When impoverished Persians and Arabs see the Western World (ie, USA) propping up governments, meddling with their own affairs, and padding the pockets of a country that forcefully pushed out a people, then you will have easy targets for extremism, as we have seen.

Same thing happened in Germany prior to and during the rise of Hitler.

August 31, 2010 at 10:48 a.m.
hambone said...

Andrewlohr, Armchair chickenhawks like you need to get up off your butts and do something about Saudi Arabia. Get yourself a M-16 some Kevlar body armor and a airline ticket and go over there and open a church.

August 31, 2010 at 11:02 a.m.

snooksie, I can. Lutheran School was burned by a troubled neighborhood kid who had nothing better to do than to break in and start a fire. But I'm sure, if this happened today, the liberals would be crying out for his First Amendment rights and an understanding of his feelings and motives.

This whole mosque thing has gone way beyond insanity. Does anyone really believe the Unions will build it and the FDNY will protect it?

August 31, 2010 at 11:36 a.m.
whatsthefuss said...

Dear HiDef, Where to start?? Do Athiests Make Good Americans?? I don't see why not. All of your arguments, and they are just that, are twisted toward your christian indoctrination. For you to think that someone who has decided not to believe in god has no knowledge of christian teachings is typical. There are many athiests who are well versed in the teachings of the bible. Thats how many become athiests. You seem to be very upset with your thinking that you cannot have a conversation with an athiest about miracles, being saved or last Sundays service. It shows how entrenched you are with only christianity and how bigoted you are to opposing views. You could have the conversation. What you would dislike about it would be the opposing argument. I chuckle at the notion that you think I have never had a conversation with a believer of Islam, nor could discuss your beliefs. It's this very thinking that creates SUPERIOR BEINGS. With all that said, I did find your post very amusing. Laughter is the best medicine.

August 31, 2010 at 11:53 a.m.
Snooksie said...

bookieturnersghost.....It wasnt the school that i was talking about being burned. It was the actual church. I would say it was about 20 years ago when it burned. Are you saying it was the same thing? I dont remember the school being burned down then but I was a kid.

August 31, 2010 at 12:24 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

As an atheist I can only sit back and shake my head in wonder. I turned to atheism not only because I found the teachings of religion illogical, but because I viewed it as a philosophy invariable created at its beginnings by a group of people who were ignorant of the natural world, oppressed in some manner in their particular region, or seeking power or influence through the beginnings of a different philosophy.

Fear and self-interest have always been the greatest motivators throughout history.

Everything we are witnessing today with this issue of a certain group of people hyping fear of another group of people not of their religious or philosophical beliefs, supposedly threatening our values/country/religion, etc., motivated by purely political purposes, has been played out in one form or the other throughout history.

The right has once again trotted out their fear propaganda to gain influence in the upcoming elections. Remember the reason and fear tactics used to justify the Iraq war? Remember their justifications for gutting the Constitution with the Patriot Act? Torture for prisoners?

Now they have turned to religion, ethnic, and race fear, sweeping along the ignorant and fearful for their political purposes. Again, tried and true throughout history to achieve political ends.

I will continue to respect the religious views of any sincere individual but still be comforted by the belief that all religion was derived by man and throughout history been used and abused to control the masses and enhance their particular philosophy.

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” - Seneca, (Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD)

August 31, 2010 at 1:22 p.m.
juggenheimer said...

Bookieturnersghost...the school was not burned down, but the church. I am a member of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church (GSLC), and have been my entire life. My family were some of the charter members of the church. I would like to say that even though it was a huge tragedy, I believe that God (and this is coming from, well obviously, a Christian) burned our CHURCH BUILDING. He built a much more beautiful church in its place, where I have seen hundreds of church services, and dozens of weddings, baptisms, and funeral services. I believe that God did that so that He could give us a much larger facility to grow. There is also remnants of the old church right in the front foyer. Sadly, others at my church don't take quite the awe in it that I do, but it does have quite the powerful statement to those who would give it a closer look. It's a burnt cross from the old building with nails reaching all up in down both boards (I could go on and on about the symbolism here, but I'll stop short for all you who really don't care to hear about my faith). God has a purpose for everything. He even calls the weak (who too often do not know it) to do His works. I know 90% of the people who were members when that building burned, and I bet you everything I've got that 100% of them would say that it was God making way for the better. Satan's evil is always turned back upon him. Poor fella. I'm a conservative by nature, but I hope the the mosques do succeed. Everyone has their own right to worship whomever they wish. I would not stop any man from doing so. I would like to turn to something that whatthefuss said under his spiritually section. God, in the Christian faith (which is a relationship, not a religion), is LOVE. And in the BIBLE, we are called to love our enemies, and to love our neighbors as ourselves. So if they want to build a mosque...let them. Try even visiting the place, and if they're planning some massive Genocide. I think you'll be able to notice.

August 31, 2010 at 1:29 p.m.
FM_33 said...

It is either us or them. The Muslim want to rule the world. Username: Tax_Payer | On: August 31, 2010 at 12:27 a.m.


You forgot the Lord Jesus Christ who is the king of kings and the lords of lords.

August 31, 2010 at 2:19 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Yawn so of these long winded post by sone of these posters would put anybody to sleep.

Folk's this a posting site to cmment about issue's of the day not post like you writing a book for a book ewlwl

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August 31, 2010 at 2:53 p.m.
juggenheimer said...

I think you are missing something there FM_33. And I'm not defending him b/c by all means, I don't believe in what he is saying (and I'll tell you why here in a minute), but Tax_Payer said, "It is either us or them. The Muslim want to rule the world."

If you are a Christian/Jew, you already believe that God rules the earth. He doesn't 'want to', He does. <--- period. And if you don't, then you either believe in another being that rules the earth, or you don't believe that there are any higher beings. So FM_33, to say that, "You forgot the Lord Jesus Christ who is the king of kings and the lord* of lords." is to say that 'the Lord Jesus Christ' wants to rule the world wouldn't quite work.

Now, back to Tax_Payers comment. No truly God fearing or Allah fearing man/woman wants to rule the world. They only want to go to heaven, and reign there with their Lord forever. To live in peace. Now...to get at where you are coming from, there are many people who are selfish, and like to play God. They like to think their way is the best and that they do have to rule the world in order to save the world b/c of what they believe is right. They get caught up in the idea of being right, rather than actually letting their (and this is very Christian bias b/c that's what I know best) religion speak for itself by simply acting it out fully, wholy, and truthfully. Let every man/woman find their own path, don't try to chose it for them

August 31, 2010 at 3:12 p.m.
HiDef said...

whatsthefuss, I think you missed my point as I am most certainly not an indoctrinated Christian but an Atheist myself. I was lampooning your post about Muslims not being able to be good Americans because they don't believe in the Christian God. Neither do Atheists, so should we take away their freedoms and label them as unable to be "good Americans" as well? Maybe I missed your point and point of view. If so, I apologize.

August 31, 2010 at 5:50 p.m.
rolando said...

Duford -- The Muslims will never even THINK about stopping their terrorism against us until we all bow to Mecca [or whereverthehll] five times a day, stone our women to death on ONE MAN's complaint, circumcise [mutilate] our women, kill our women/daughters because they dare to look at a man -- any man, kiss the ayatollah [or whatever] arse upon command, and still, above all else, bow down to Mecca five times a day [or whereverthehll]. 'Course they don't think much anyway...unless they are told to.

They will only truly stop when each and every one of them is stone-cold dead...which is the better solution. THEN and only then will they stop.

Come to think of it, they have a lot in common with the Democrats...

August 31, 2010 at 6:07 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

rolando, you are full of crap and part of the problem, not the solution. I am sorry I defended you. You obviously don't know a single muslim.

August 31, 2010 at 7:10 p.m.
FM_33 said...

rolando, you are full of crap and part of the problem, not the solution. I am sorry I defended you. You obviously don't know a single muslim. Username: lkeithlu | On: August 31, 2010 at 7:10 p.m.


Hahahahahaa......see what i mean.

August 31, 2010 at 7:33 p.m.
Duford said...

Hi Rolando,

Thanks for your comment.

Here's the way I see it.

Those who are radical killers get increased enrollment when we play Empire across the world, especially in the Middle East.

Generally, all most people want -- as I would assume Muslims as well -- is to live their own life accordingly in peace.

But, given how much time we've spent in the Middle East, propping up dictatorships (CIA and Iran in the 50s), embarking on Cold War proxy wars (Afghanistan and Iraq -- there's a great picture of Rumsfield shaking Hussein's hand from that time), don't you think that the people's of that area would be just about fed up with Americans? Enough, in some radical cases, that the extremist recruiters could take advantage of the situation?

Just imagine if China, or any country, had bases on US soil. How would you feel? How would you imagine that would skew your opinion of the occupiers, no matter how righteous in their actions they claim they are?

You see, rolando, we're Americans -- we uphold natural rights. Our founding documents were based on the noble idea of the non-aggression principle. Live and let live, you know. Until you mess with me, then I defend myself from your aggression justifiably.

This is not the case we have in our foreign adventures nowadays. We're playing imperialists, spending untold billions (if not trillions by now), subsidizing the world's defense.

If you truly believe in the underlying premise of the founding documents and ideas, could you rationally justify the expansiveness of our military?

...And could you at least understand the idea of "blowback," and how such expansive influence and dealings has its consequences?

August 31, 2010 at 7:43 p.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "The Muslims will never even THINK about stopping their terrorism against us until we all bow to Mecca [or whereverthehll] five times a day, stone our women to death on ONE MAN's complaint, circumcise [mutilate] our women, kill our women/daughters because they dare to look at a man (snip)....blah blah blah..."


The fact is Rolando, you fearmongering idjet, that there are THOUSANDS of American Muslim men and women as we speak, who are working for our Government in monitoring the world on behalf of this country to prevent and eradicate terrorism.

They work as analysts, linguists, and spies who infiltrate terrorist groups. They voluntarily enlisted in the Navy, Army, Marine, and Air Force. They provide intelligence and classified information to officials who handle and use the intelligence that these patriots provide, to conduct critical operations to secure our country against a future attack.

These Muslim-Americans have dedicated their lives to fighting terrorism. Without the language, cultural, and analytical skill sets of such Muslim-Americans, U.S. counterterrorism operations would not be nearly as successful as they are today.

Muslim-Americans are valuable, and you may well owe your very life to many of them, for their efforts in protecting innocent lives of their fellow Americans.

As someone who claims the military background that you have cited so many times, I would think that you would have some appreciation for what they do, and that I would not have to point such a thing out to you.

Your continued attempt to lump EVERY Muslim into one, neat category, is totally ignorant.

Would you care to amend your statement, or will you continue to stand on the bed of ignorance that defines you religiously?


"They will only truly stop when each and every one of them is stone-cold dead...which is the better solution. THEN and only then will they stop."


Well...that was deep, but then it's the kind of thing that I have come to expect you to relate on just about any subject.

While we're on the subject, what value should be put on YOUR life? You're just a leach on the taxpayers of this nation. You're just sucking oxygen that more productive Americans need. You're a drain on the financial resources of this nation. And you're hardly what could be determined to be a pleasant person.

So tell me Rolando, what use are you to the world? Isn't it time for you to recycle your carcass in order to replenish the Earth's nutrients for others who are a bit more useful?

Look, if you're going to make those kind of reckless and generalized statements, then you really ought to be sure that you're better than a Muslim.

You're not and you never will be.

God put us ALL down here for a purpose. And from where I sit, you're not attempting to follow God's plan for the World, which in my opinion, is a test and a quest to find a way for all of us to get along with each other, somehow, some way.

August 31, 2010 at 7:44 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

What an intelligent post, duford!

August 31, 2010 at 7:47 p.m.
alprova said...

I second that nomination as well. I can't argue one point in Duford's post.

I bow in complete respect!

August 31, 2010 at 7:55 p.m.
moonpie said...

rolando,

Right after 911 a colleague showed me CIA documents which were declassified outlined U.S. Strategy to destabilize the Soviet grasp on Afghanistan. These were still available on the CIA website in the months following 911. They have since been removed.

The documents detailed all the ways the U.S. needed to combat Soviet influence. They listed what the Soviets had been able to accomplish and things we had to reverse. In no particular order these were the items that stood out to me at the time:

1) The Soviets had brought increased equality to women. Women were now teaching in Universities. 2) Secular influences were increasing and pushing Islamic law to the side. 3) They were working to decrease the opium trade.

There were many other points, which basically were Anti-American, but politically expedient.

The CIA documents detailed that to undermine Soviet influence we needed to specifically side with the Taliban to increase radical religous influence within the country. They pointed out that only by undermining freedoms brought by the Soviets would we have a chance of getting the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

We, the United States of America abandoned our principles. It was in black and white, though redacted, for all to see.

We, as a nation, proved that we put our principles aside when we found it expedient. I don't blame others for not trusting us. We earned their suspicion.

In your post, you're basically proposing similar solutions... become worse than our enemy. To follow you, we'd have to abandon our principles of freedom, liberty and justice.

Maybe I'm not as old or cynical as you. However, I do believe you lose all ethical and moral footing when you shift the very ground you stand on to suit your own purposes.

I invite you to stand on the side of justice, liberty and religious freedom, to basically stand up for what Americans say that they believe in. Your post makes it seem like you're willing to abandon American beliefs when expedient.

Will you join those of us with the courage to grant freedom in the face of adversity?

August 31, 2010 at 8:09 p.m.
ITguy said...

I am amazed that anyone would defend arson and vandalism. To brand all Muslims as terrorists is a reflection of bigoted ignorance. Muslims don't agree among themselves any more than Christans agree with one another. Use a little critical thinking. Does Jerry Falwell speak for all Christians? Does the Pope? What would make you believe that all Muslims are of one mind?

August 31, 2010 at 8:42 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

I suppose that a person would have to live in Murfreesboro to even begin to understand what the issue is concerning the Muslim mosque. The Boro has seen a lot of problems because of the Green Card Lottery Program. In case you don't know, the Green Card Lottery is a United States program the allows about 50,000 persons PER YEAR to immigrate to the United States from countries that have the least number of immigrants. http://www.usagcls.com Now, before you get too excited, this program has been around long before Barack Obama. It was started in 1996.

Nashville is one of the intake ports. So, one of the clever solutions has been to send vast numbers of immigrants to this port (usually from Somalia...yeah, the country with the pirates) down to Shelbyville about 20 minutes south of Murfreesboro. They have a regular little Islamic enclave there and drive the local police department crazy with constant law breaking, in your face behavior. You may have heard something about it...the Tyson chicken plant had to install a prayer room and was going to remove Labor Day as a holiday so the Muslims could have a holiday of their own. This did not sit well with people in the area.

Since Murfreesboro and Shelbyville are connected by a nice four lane highway, the "misunderstood" Somalian people make regular treks to the Boro. Some people do not understand why the Muslim women wear long dresses and head scarves and walk behind their men. Or why the locals should change their red blooded American holiday. Or why they get so much time to stop and pray but locals can't get that much time for cigarette breaks.

There are also questions about the shear size of the planned mosque area. There is a huge playground. A cemetery. A giant recreation building with swimming pool. Lots of oversized pavilions. It is odd to the people there.

So, the public is left with assuming that it is bigotry and ignorance in Murfreesboro but it is really just the collective experience in a Bible belt region that has seen a huge influx of immigrants both legal and illegal.

But then again, Murfreesboro wasn't receptive to the Bible theme park either.

August 31, 2010 at 9:40 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

How interesting, Savarti-this is a side I haven't heard.

August 31, 2010 at 9:44 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"I guess the Murfreesboro mosque is "too close" to ground zero,like the ones in Fla.,Cal.,Ky.,etc. Username: acerigger | On: August 31, 2010 at 5:48 a.m."

And Chattanooga, we have at least one here as well, or will soon, I haven't physically visited the site in a while and the photos are old.

I'd be mighty torqued if someone were to destroy my equipment merely for doing business with a religious entity.

I hope the perpetrators are caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law.

The Muslims enjoy exactly the same private property rights as any other citizens of the U.S. Their detractors also enjoy exactly the same freedom of speech rights as any other citizen, though many would like to deny them that and belittle them for their opinions.

Until the government steps in and denies the right to build as the muslim's see fit, the whole "freedom of religion" argument is nothing but a red herring as the Constitution does not provide for freedom from being criticized for tone deaf actions.

August 31, 2010 at 10:26 p.m.
moonpie said...

SavartiTN,

Very nice argument(s).

Civil, too.

I know there are practical objections to nearly every plan. Still the freedom to build a mosque is a separate issue than an immigration policy.

You correctly point out that people in Murfreesboro have some catching up to do. I think you would agree that the vandals have more ground to make up than some others.

(sorry about any typos, tapping on a mobile)

Vandalism is not the solution to issues of immigration.

August 31, 2010 at 10:27 p.m.
Clara said...

Has any headway been made as to who, exactly, set the fire?

August 31, 2010 at 10:39 p.m.
moonpie said...

Agreed scotty,

We all have the freedom to complain. We all even have the freedom to be racist, to support violent and destructive acts (to a point). As you've may have noticed here, several people have given tacit approval to criminal acts.

They are within their rights to do so. Personally, I'd like to change their minds and help them see that behaving badly does not change the world for the better.

At best, most of our conservative posters have given very tepid condemnation of the vandalism. I'd like to see them boldly condemn such activities, without qualification or justification.

August 31, 2010 at 10:41 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

mp,

I wrote, "I hope the perpetrators are caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law."

Does that count?

Now, if it were an I.R.S. installation...

August 31, 2010 at 10:48 p.m.
moonpie said...

Oh, yes, scotty, that certainly counts.

August 31, 2010 at 10:53 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

FM_33 | On: August 31, 2010 at 2:53 p.m.

I'm not sure how you did that, but running in Firefox, Safari and IE all three the last line of your post ran all the way across my main screen and the secondary as well.

I've never seen that happen on this page.

August 31, 2010 at 10:55 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Username: Duford | On: August 31, 2010 at 7:43 p.m.

As good a post on the dangers of imperialism and nation building as I have come across in some time. Have held the same sentiment for years. Thanks

August 31, 2010 at 11:41 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Benjamin Franklin wrote:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I heard of Red States and Blue States.

When did America become the Yellow States of America?

We beg for protection and everybody from the government to your local TV news promises to keep us SAFE.

Why are we so frightened?

Are there dangers in the world? You bet. You can slip in your bathtub or get creamed by a drunk running a stop sign.

But dammit, we started with 13 Colonies, became the dominant world power, and even walked on the freaking Moon.

Why are we afraid of anybody? Are we seriously going to trash the Constitution because some rag heads don't like us?

Really?

Burning down a Mosque ANYWHERE in America should be beneath us. I see some of you are magnanimous enough to at least oppose arson, but some of you born again phonies think the answer is a Christian jihad. (Google "Crusades")

I have not been posting comments here very long, but I am shocked and awed at how many of you act like scared kids, striking out at anything and everything even remotely different.

You must lie awake at night, quaking under the covers, imagining the monsters in the closet and the terrors beneath your bed.

I understand the political component in all this, but what happened to the guts that built this country?

Our Constitution makes the United States the greatest example of representative government every imagined.

I'm sick of hearing you mutton heads say, "Yeah, I agree with the Constitution BUT..."

You make me want to puke.

I honestly thought we were better than that.

September 1, 2010 at 12:25 a.m.
alprova said...

SavartiTN, as well thought out and insightful your post was, there are a couple of problems with it.

The Somalians who were shuttled to and who have settled in Shelbyville, are not involved in any manner with the Murphreesboro Mosque.

The Mosque in Murphreesboro would serve the 250 families located in Murphreesboro, who are Shia Muslims. These families are Iraqi Kurds, refugees from Iraq, who began settling in Murphreesboro in 1991.

The African based Somalia Muslims are Sunni Muslims. A very non-descript Mosque opened in Shelbyville to serve them in 2000.

September 1, 2010 at 1:07 a.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

I'm sure the scores of out-of-work construction workers, who's families were depending on this job for a paycheck, appreciate the rightwing, fear-mongers extending their unemployment benefits. It all comes full circle.

September 1, 2010 at 1:09 a.m.
rolando said...

Duford -- Nowhere have I ever said our hands were clean during any particular time in our history; usually just the opposite. WW2 and the aftermath [when we rebuilt our attackers' countries and made them into our competitors] was about as close as we came to honorable ideals. But even that was for selfish reasons rather than altruism -- most everything worthwhile in this world is done out of selfishness.

Mostly we, the people, just want to be left the F alone...it is our elected "Leaders" who have gotten us to this point.

That said, this follows: Truly peace-loving Muslims [and I know more than a few] do NOT commit terrorist acts...perhaps because their imams [or whoever] haven't ordered [or brainwashed] them into it. [But perhaps not, and they are Americans first.] If they do NOT commit terrorist acts, willingly or unwillingly, they are NOT following the orders of their Prophet and their Scriptures...therefore it follows that they are not Muslims at all [some here ridiculously claim Christians are not Christians unless they follow each and every word in the Bible, so there is precedence].

Incidentally, a failure of peace-loving Muslims to speak out against their fanatical nutcases empowers those same insane killers and tacitly supports their deadly actions against women and children.

September 1, 2010 at 8:18 a.m.
SavartiTN said...

Good point, alprova, but that is sort of my point...most Americans do not know the difference between a Sunni and Shia Muslim so the fear of the unknown causes some issues. Just as most Muslims do not know the difference between Catholic or Protestant nor Baptist from Presbyterian from Methodist...they are all Christian to a Muslim.

Just to clarify why the locals have a real apprehension of any kind of Muslims taking hold in Murfreesboro, here are some links about the problems with the Somilia immigrants...

About complaints of Somalia behavior...http://www.t-g.com/story/1300668.html

About fraud among the immigrants...http://www.t-g.com/story/1478471.html

About the Labor Day protest...http://www.t-g.com/story/1451367.html

Good article on the Somalian population in Shelbyville, welfare, etc...http://www.t-g.com/story/1320154.html

Well, just go here and you can read even more about the issues...http://www.t-g.com/topic/somalia

I am not defending the actions of what some people in the Boro did because of this but am pointing out where the rationale began. It seems most European ancestry white people in America have never been too tolerate of those who are "different."

September 1, 2010 at 8:03 p.m.
Oz said...

If Owebama had an economic policy, Clay would not have to do all of these Tea Party and Mosque cartoons to change the subject.

The Party of OWE has to GO!

September 1, 2010 at 10:10 p.m.
alprova said...

SavartiTn, I can offer no defense to the problems and/or issues that the Somalia immigrants are causing. It is what it is. Tyson Foods probably has their hands full too. The Somalia are indeed a whole different class and culture of people, and far different than that of the Kurdish immigrants.

Hopefully, in time, the Somalia can be "tamed" to change that which they do to "survive," given that they are taught young to scam, steal, etc., having come here from an environment of pure desperation. Old habits are hard to break. I'd say that most of them don't know any other way to act.

September 2, 2010 at 1:17 a.m.
alprova said...

Oz wrote: "If Owebama had an economic policy, Clay would not have to do all of these Tea Party and Mosque cartoons to change the subject.

The Party of OWE has to GO!"


I fully understand people's concern with the National Debt, but what bugs me whenever I read comments similar to yours, is that there seems to be a complete failure on the part of so many to acknowledge that the Debt has been an ongoing and exploding problem for much of the past 30 years.

You can't blame Obama but for a small sliver of that exploding debt.

The debt was at $2 trillion dollars when Reagan took office. When he departed the White House, the debt stood at almost $5 trillion dollars.

Enter George Bush Sr.. The debt rose another trillion dollars to $6 trillion.

Enter Clinton. The debt continued it's climb to $6.5 trillion dollars, then dipping to $6.4 trillion by the time he departed office.

Enter GWB. The debt climbed to $10 trillion dollars, essentially adding $3.6 trillion dollars to the debt under his tutelage.

Since Obama has been in office, the debt has risen to around $12 trillion dollars, but most of that involved spending set in motion before Obama walked in the White House on his first day in office.

Now, I'm sorry, but of the $10 trillion dollars that has been added to the debt since Reagan took office, not only has there never been any outrage about it prior to Obama, but there seems to be a propensity among some people to saddle all that debt on the shoulders of President Obama, and it's very misleading to do so.

Reagan started that ball rolling, and every time a Republican left the White House, the ball has picked up steam each and every time. It cannot be denied or disproven.

The last thing we need is for the Republicans to be put back in office to resume the plundering of the pockets of the taxpayers.

They've wrecked the economy. They relocated our best jobs. They're packing their golden parachutes. A vote for a Republican is a vote to destroy this nation.

Obama got saddled with all this crap and people who refuse to understand what led to the crap we are dealing with, seem to be determined to allow it to resume, at their own peril.

You might agree with the principles and tenets that Republicans claim to stand for, and that's great. So be it. But to completely overlook what happened in this nation, and for one second to consider allowing them to do it all over again, is unbelievably stupendous.

If anyone in their right mind thinks that what collapsed our economy was due to a very minute portion of mortgages that were issued to people who could not afford the houses they bought, then they are in dire need of a remedial mathematics course.

A 20% default rate of 12% of all mortgages does not collapse an economy. Credit card defaults represent a much larger slice of the pie, and the banks eat that every years in this nation, or did that is.

It does not compute and it never has computed.

September 2, 2010 at 1:49 a.m.
Duford said...

Hey Al,

I agree with you one all fronts. I always admired certain aspects of Reagan, but he (and Congress, of course) essentially mortgaged the tax breaks in the early 80s with heavy borrowing abroad.

And honestly, until you speak of cutting our military empire abroad, including hundreds of bases around the world, and ending all foreign conflicts immediately, then any spending cut ideas you have really don't have any teeth.

Also, what broke this country -- and will continue to break this country -- is moral hazard that permeates the financial sector. Wall Street and Government are in bed so bad with each other (especially the democrats -- look at their donation efforts).

Without going into extreme detail, you basically had a sector of this economy (Wall Street) functioning on the assumption that the Fed would bail them out if things got hairy. Plus, you have legislation and Fannie Mae that removes the risk-measuring function of a bank to determine appropriate levels of capital needed to qualify for loans (via government red-lining coercion, guarantees, and the fact that Fannie Mae removes the risk off of the bank's books).

On top of that, you have a Federal Reserve promoting hilariously low interest rate policy, which makes access to money way too easy for anybody, despite their ability to repay.

With all these guarantees, government mandates, and risk-reducing measures, that all have no underlying premise in reality, are you really surprised our economy has tanked (and probably will continue to tank) the way it has?

That's just a few of the reasons why our financial system stinks, and yes, you can blame every Republican president and Democrat Congress along the way for not having a grasp on reality and austerity. But you also need to blame voters themselves for continuously voting in bureaucrats that endlessly fleece the Treasury and taxpayers.

September 2, 2010 at 5:32 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Both good posts, Alprova and duford. This is an area of which I am ignorant except for the very basics.

September 2, 2010 at 9:13 a.m.
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