The Pledge

Now kids today's lesson is sponsored by the Goldman Sachs.

Actually, in our local public schools, the kids don't recite the pledge these days.

I guess it was taking too much time away from teaching three different methods for dividing numbers, and three different different methods for multiplying numbers.

(It doesn't matter which way the individual kid can do each type of calculation more efficiently, he/she has to acquire, and demonstrate, proficiency in all six.)

Funny how the left just HATES an expansive interpretation of the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution when it might cost them some informational control.

(To anticipate the dissenting argument that "corporations are not people", my answer is, "A group of people, joining together as a legal entity[i.e. a legal conglomerate of individuals] with common interests, retain their individual rights en masse." Now, go ahead and make your Statist argument.)

I love a balancing cartoon of a different stripe --

http://townhall.com/cartoons/cartoonist/ChuckAsay

Buying votes with tax dollars is OK, but buying advertising with corporate dollars is not? The Time can endorse a candidate, but General Motors cannot? (Couldn't until yesterday.) The only federal program they ask voters about directly is the welfare program for Presidential candidates (checkoff on Form 1040). What percentage votes for this? Last I read, 89% were AGAINST--against tax funding of political campaigns, against taking our money to advertise politicians we disagree with. But the minority could also get what they wanted; could still send money to this program.
Campaign spending limits protect incumbents, rather than protecting democracy or the people. How could the "Pledge of Allegiance" be reworded so those who realize Jesus Christ outranks the USA can offer due respect to our country without saying too much?

The Supreme Court ruling this week will hit folks like being run over by a bus, and they won't see it coming. If you liked the one-party system in the former Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, Communist China etc. you will love where we will be ten years. Wall Street and special interests were given the green light to take control of our govt from DC to state and local. Your voice and vote will be overwhelmed by the media blitz of multi-million dollar special interest ads.

This is a case of "Bad News/Worse News."

The "Bad News" is that everything mentioned, so far, has been right on point. The "Worse News" is that even though those who have "...hit the head squarely on the nail...." know the reason why we are in such a horrendous situation, not one of them would ever think of changing their allegiance to their particular party in order to make the needed changes to our system.

Everyone of them believe their party is the party that is right..or left as the case may be. So sad, too. Everyone I have mentioned, and you know who you are, are bright, educated individuals with only one common drawback, as far I can see. You are so willing to travel through life with a 'fitted' set of political 'blinders' in place, which keep you from seeing the answer you seek.

Have a great weekend, Woody

One more thing..as our good friend Rolando might say...

Scotty..kids here still recite "The Pledge" every morning. Granted, most probably don't fully understand that which they are saying, but if it only 'sinks in' on one or two every now and then, there is still hope for the future.

Keep the faith, Woody

This "expansion" of the 1st Amendment would have the Founding Fathers rolling over in their graves. The Bill of Rights and the Constitution are in place to protect the People, especially those in the minority, not corporations. It astounds me that those who support this decision are the same people who are constantly complaining about censorship and their eroding rights.

This situation reminds me of the filibuster debate. The majority party always seeks to eliminate it, but when the power shifts, are its biggest proponents. Unfortunately, I think all of our voices are in danger of being drowned out by the big money of corporations, whose interests are in profit rather than the well-being of the nation's people.

"Actually, in our local public schools, the kids don't recite the pledge these days."

my children go to Hamilton County public schools and the pledge is cited school-wide every single morning at the beginning of the day. Not sure where you are getting your information - maybe you are late every day?

(To anticipate the dissenting argument that "corporations are not people", my answer is, "A group of people, joining together as a legal entity[i.e. a legal conglomerate of individuals] with common interests, retain their individual rights en masse." Now, go ahead and make your Statist argument.)

so can a man and woman form a corporation together, and another man and a woman form a corporation together, and then the two corporations get married to each other?

I wonder what will happen when a large chinese company buys a US company and floods money to advertising to get in candidates friendly to chinese trade? Or when Hugo Chavez sends money through Citgo? Or the Saudis use their oil money to promote candidates?

Only after the same-sex marriage federal court case is favorably decided, Humphrey. Two man-woman groups contain, well...two men and two women. Each member of the group would be married to the other three. Same-sex marriage -- currently illegal...soon to change via judicial activism.

no, one corporation and one corporation

Hats off to Woody for being so insightful as to the biggest problem we face as a country. The 2 party system has us right where they want us. At each others throats. As to the pledge, it to is recited every morning in Catoosa County schools. They even still include the one nation under god part. So the argument that god is not mentioned in public schools is a fallacy. God is very relevant, yesterday, today and tomorrow. The issue became that the new testament was professed to be the only real book of faith with jesus christ as our lord and savior. The mention of God is acceptable. It lets you choose your own flavor!!! Getting back to the pledge, there is a Youtube video out there by Red Skelton that explains just what the pledge means, word by word, line, by line. Woody, being correct again that 1 or 2 may get it, it becomes obvious with all the taught history lessons, this one seems to slip by without any thought. Until I saw the video, I too was in the dark. Like the children singing the Barack Hussein Obama, M,M,M, song, the pledge too seems to be a form of indoctrination at the school level. Not a must have history lesson or perhaps I was absent that day. I'm just sayin!!!

Humphrey asked: "Not sure where you are getting your information - maybe you are late every day?" Humph, there is another world out there. All across the country, schools have banned the allegiance-for years. My school in the South did when I was in the fourth grade (when the Dinos roamed the earth), because one kid complained to his parents.

Many good points stated above, yet, we haven't ever lived under a Democracy, it was set up to be a free Republic. Free/democratic principles have been 'lost' in North America for decades now. Due to a combination of corrupt Gov't, corrupt corporations/financial institutions and corrupt Unions. Read Progressivism and its destructive policies since Woodrow Wilson (early 1900's), not the Free Market system as some on the Left would have us believe.

Clay's cartoon is as usual, very artistic and only partly true. If the court decision is indeed constitutional, then the Law should stand. However, we should be very concerned, not only because we are 'foreign-owned' now, but for the reason that who or what will be acting to diminish our freedoms as citizens of the US in the near future? We have been losing out for a long, long time now. What's next on the agenda?

Scottm said "Actually, in our local public schools, the kids don't recite the pledge these days."

That simply isn't true and I said so.

And then you say "there is another world there. All across the country...."

Which doesn't really coincide with the statement "...in our local public schools..."

You seem to be a literalist Humph. I assumed Scotty's "local" was wherever he lives, not necessarily Ham County. I will concede to your interpretation though, while still maintaining my point stands. All across this country, the pledge (and prayer) has been taken out of the schools. Now (not in my time as a kid), we have school violence and killings/sexual abuse to the nth degree. Could (or could not) be relevant to this issue also, pertaining to what we ban and what we allow?

I posted this on the "We the people" article and meant to on this one. Well, it's appropriate in both.

rolando mentioned judicial activists- this new court ruling takes politics to a whole new dimension. Corporations have proven their disloyalty by creating unemployment without much effort to fill the void, and the financial bunch nearly sunk the economy without a blink. Do we think they will do any differently with the gift just handed them by the court?

Scott I couldn't have said it better. You sir, are a genius.

At first glance, this ruling may seem to be a setback. Be that as it may, in spite of the fact that they were strapped this past election, corporations absolutely did their level best to influence the Presidential election and they failed to achieve their goal.

I have a long list of businesses that I do not patronize for one reason or another. Many people in this nation inform themselves to how corporations operate and to what lengths they will go to protect their interests.

There's no reason to think that any corporation can bypass the will of the people. Voting at your local precinct for each election is your duty, and an equal counter to this issue is to also vote with your dollars. Choose where you spend your dollars wisely and without blinders on.

For example, the large banks in this country are currently wooing politicians to be allowed to operate as they did prior to the financial meltdown. There isn't a large corporate bank in this nation that could woo me to do business with them on any level.

In other words, they are not paying out outrageous sums of money in bonuses or padding the coffers of politicians with funds obtained from my pockets.

I do business with two banks. One is within driving distance of my home. The other is a bank in California that no one has ever heard of. And that has been the case for more than 30 years. Both are rock solid institutions and I have never been denied financial services from either when it was asked of them, even at the lowest point in my life and with a completely trashed credit record, due to financial hardship spawned when a man plunged through a traffic light, nearly killing my wife.

Try achieving that kind of relationship with any of the top 50 banks planted in 20 story buildings.

95% of the money I spend each and every year is spent at the local level, with small town establishments. Avoiding the detrimental side of Corporate America has never presented a problem to me.

I have investments in several corporations, but I research every last one of them thoroughly before I plunk down a cent for a stake in them.

I am not alone, and I urge anyone who is truly interested in preserving what made this country what it once was, to do the same.

If Corporate America wants to burn through their cash in their quest to continue to rape this country, more power to them. I hope they spend a fortune over the next two years. Many eyes will be on them and the word will get out as to their true motivations, I have little doubt.

It's very hard for anyone, or a group of anyone's to manipulate the minds of those seeking the truth, as we all witnessed this past Presidential election. Truth has a way of rearing it's ugly head all too often these days, in spite of the best efforts to quash it.

Let the games begin.

The free flow of information, by, through and for any source, is a public good. Governmental censorship, whether affecting a "wardrobe malfunction" on television or a corporate political commercial is a public evil. While global corporate influence on our political system is reprehensible, it can only be combatted by a free flow of information. Any precedent that allows any governing body to limit the flow of information insulates the status quo and is anathema to a free society. If any of you believe that this Supreme Court opinion will lead to the corporate control of our government, that means you must obviously believe that something other than the corporations are currently in control. How naive!

Humphrey wrote,

"That simply isn't true and I said so."

Are you calling my kids liars?(I won't take too kindly to that.)

They both attend a public school right here in the heart of Chattanooga, Hamilton Co., and they DO NOT recite the pledge in class, and they have never been late to class as I drop them off before I go to the office. Perhaps it is a policy that is decided by the individual school.

larry,

You sir, are a great American.

Alprova wrote,

"corporations absolutely did their level best to influence the Presidential election and they failed to achieve their goal."

You may want to go back and check out who received the greatest amount of corporate largess. I'm fairly certain that their guy won.(To the detriment of our country.)

Years ago, as I remember, the appointed heads of various departments in the U.S. government, made it a practice to influence the government workers in their departments to vote for the candidate in the party that got them the appointment.

I forget the year this practice was eliminated.

Now, the corporations have found a way to do the same thing in a slightly different manner.

The corporations are not one person, one vote.

It is obviously one corporation, one vote, cancelling anyway the individual might be counted.

Fear is a powerful persuader!

I'm glad I'm an independent Independent!

If the school my kid went to did not say the Pledge of Allegiance (which should be capitalized) or more importantly taught subjects that I did not approved of, I would seriously think about getting my child out of that school. I know this is off subject, but a few months ago parents wanted to take their kids out of school because the President wanted to address them and now I hear (for the first time) that some schools in Hamilton County don't say the Pledge of Allegiance and no one is doing anything about it! Are you serious? Please someone tell me this in not true.

SS59er,

It is true.

I'm not happy about it, but I've written enough letters to teachers and administrators about other issues to have them walking on egg shells around my kids. As everyone on this board knows, I have zero problems being an a^^ when I need to be.

My kids are well versed(by me) in the non-PC version of U.S. history, including American Exceptional-ism, and so I choose not to get myself all fired up about this.

My kids understand that the U.S. is the cradle of the greatest civilization which has ever existed, and that we owe our high standard of living and the freedoms we enjoy to our republican form of government. That's enough for me.

If anyone would like to get all fired up and fix this situation, I'll give you my full support, sign the petition, and vote for a school board member who promises to fix it, but I'm not going to pick this particular battle as a pet project. (I stay busy enough fighting back the AGW baloney and the PC "social studies" crap.)

they say it every morning at my children's school in Chattanooga, the principal comes on the PA system and has the morning announcements and then leads the Pledge of Allegiance. I hear it every morning as I am leaving after dropping my kids off. My kids go to Normal Park. I can't speak for other schools, but Normal park is pretty much right in the heart of Chattanooga.

Humphrey,

As I said, this must be decided on a school-by-school basis.

It does not happen at our magnet school.

"How could the "Pledge of Allegiance" be reworded so those who realize Jesus Christ outranks the USA can offer due respect to our country without saying too much?"

+++

God bless Andrew, and Peace upon his House, but I do not ask for any more conspiracies or cabals or sectarian strife.

Allegiance is due to the Constitution of the United States of America.

Not Christ.
Not Yawheh.
Not the Pope.
Not Allah. Not Beelzebub. Not Cthulhu. Not the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Not any Prince or Power of Earth or Air.

Of course, Thomas Jefferson made certain that we can believe or imagine any or none of the above.

Let us entertain no more Secret Muslim Conspirators, Secret Christian Conspirators, Secret Socialist Conspirators &c.

We are Americans until the Fat Cats buy us out.

Scott wrote: "You may want to go back and check out who received the greatest amount of corporate largess. I'm fairly certain that their guy won.(To the detriment of our country.)"

Neither Obama nor McCain took enough individual corporate donations to begin to break a sweat over.

When you delve into what was donated, and by what entities, to produce the conventions and then what was spent to smear candidates through attack ads prior to the 60 day cooling off period, there's no comparison. Republican supporters went all out to attempt to discredit Obama.

Then you throw in Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and let's not forget that Glenn Beck was cranking up, the concerted effort to derail the candidacy of Barack Obama, while very notable, failed miserably. Where does the money come from to put all of them on the air each and every day and/or night?

Now where you and I may find common ground, is in the fact that of the few corporate donations that can be identified writing checks directly to Obama and that were accepted, the bulk of them were from health insurers. The same holds true for McCain, but he did receive far less in terms of identifiable corporate pooled donations.

The bulk of both Obama and McCain's directly contributed campaign chests came from those who claimed they were retired. Obama received $29 million versus McCain's $21 million.

Where Obama excelled, was in receiving an extreme amount of minute donations from average Americans, $10, $25, $50, and $100 at a time.

Indirect donations, funneled to them by their respective parties, cannot be tracked to determine influence. But don't think for a minute that each and every political candidate is not very aware who donates to the party. Corporate influence is very much like floodwater. You may divert it by throwing up a dam, but it's going to find it's way to the lowest point somehow, someway.

Money is the root of all evil and far too many use it for evil intentions. There are very few politicians in this or any other country around the world, who have never been influenced by it's allure and can state with any truth, that they have not been seduced through corporate donations.

For those of us who discuss the issues here and are seeking to be represented in Washington by those whom we elect, the simple fact is that we are woefully under-represented and we are nothing more to them than an ant under OUR feet.

That goes for even those who are the most conservative or who vote Republican. None of us can compete with corporations that throw out hundreds of thousands at a time to purchase the ear of a politician.

Are we powerless? Maybe. But the one thing I can do as one person, is to show up at those polls each and every time they are opened, and to make my contributions to those that I feel best represent myself as an individual.

Why get up in arms over something that will never change or that I can do a thing to change?

Inspector Bucket inserted:

"...Not the Flying Spaghetti Monster..."

I was taking a swig of iced tea when I ran across that one.

I had to clean my monitor.

I'm still chuckling...

Alprova,

I'll agree with most of what you wrote.

Please lay off the Rush-Hannity-Beck bash. We all know that the rest of the media was covering for Odumdum at every turn. There is always more than one side to any issue.

Now, what's the best way to limit the power wielded by these corporations who are theoretically manipulating the government, without infringing upon the rights of the people who comprise those companies?

How about sticking the government back into the tight Constitutional box the founders intended? The less power the government has over the people, the less harm can be done by corruption of any type. I think this is fairly obvious.

What thinks you?

alprova misquoted: "Money is the root of all evil and far too many use it for evil intentions."

Actually the quote is from the Bible, (ya'll know, The Word of the Lord) and reads, "The love of money is the root of all evil.." At no time in history have the Pols taken so much of our money and abused the privilege of spending it.

Actually, Obama's campaign benefitted more from George Soros (the self-loathing Jewish Billionaire who survived Hitler's Nazi empire to become one of the world's foremost Socialist/Communist underminers). We, in America are 'privileged' to have Soros doling out hundreds of millions of influence dollars in order to restructure our own country. Dear George set up and funds Moveon.org and other like-minded Leftist organizations in order to fund the campaigns (like Obama's) of Democratic Leftists. The two largest contributors to Obama's campaign were the Teacher's National Union and the Realtors Assn. of America. Followed by the SEIU and the Banks.

Moveon gathers small donations from individuals, thereby concealing the real money and power behind the candidate. Obama has taken funds and still does, from Health Care Lobbyists, Banks, Financial giants, Wall Street players, the whole 'diverse' gamut of corruptocrats. Indirect campaign funding can be and indeed is tracked all the time. And little to nothing is done about it. It's time to stop blaming the Repubs for all of this and look at your present administration, Congress and Party you voted for. Including the President. He has proven to be anything BUT transparent, honest and humble. Anything but.

Anyone who cares to check on the above facts: When the records/memos of the most frequent visitors to the White House to hold meetings with Obama, were released recently, Soros and the SEIU's Andy Stern topped the list. Fine feathered friends to have the exclusive ear of the President of the United States. Recent videos of Andy Stern speechmaking to his minions and union members show him pontificating about changing the "whole structure of this country", and making many other veiled threats and grandiose statements. Pretty clear for the unparanoid, huh?

A few years ago, Soros was responsible for the complete tanking of the British pound, causing a near Depression in the British economy. His manipulations of the markets are legend. He is sought after for "financial advice" by our president and Timothy Geitner. Sounds like people we can 'trust' and believe in, eh?

"How about sticking the government back into the tight Constitutional box the founders intended?"

Yes, and that should be the whole of our labor.

"Actually the quote is from the Bible, (ya'll know, The Word of the Lord[. . . .]"

ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α΄ 6:10 Greek ῥίζα γάρ πᾶς ὁ κακός εἰμί ὁ φιλαργυρία ὅς τὶς ὀρέγομαι ἀποπλανάω ἀπό ὁ πίστις καί ἑαυτοῦ περιπείρω ὀδύνη πολύς

Yes Inspector, it's all Greek to you. Unless it's poetry, best stick to The Song of Solomon or Psalms. Beautiful stuff for the weary and timeworn <@

"Yes Inspector, it's all Greek to you."

Is it ever otherwise? That is the necessary humility, I think.

What we read in the English is at best but a beautiful and eloquent shadow of a shadow.

But bless the English and their JR I for the gift of a beautiful echo of an echo--

1 Corinthians 13:12 Greek βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι’ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον· ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

O purblind race of miserable men,   How many among us at this very hour   Do forge a life-long trouble for ourselves,   By taking true for false, or false for true;   Here, through the feeble twilight of this world   Groping, how many, until we pass and reach   That other, where we see as we are seen!

Anyone who has ever decried "judicial activism" should be appalled at this SC decision. We have opened a Pandora's Box of corporate and union influence unprecedented in this country. The same people who have continued to corrupt this country are going to be allowed free reign to influence and elect our leaders.

Wake up people. The very institutions that have ruined our economy are being given the power to continue to put a stranglehold on our capitalist system. Anyone who does not think that campaign donations do not affect a politicians decisions are uninformed. Dems and Repub supporters alike will suffer from this ruling.

Is anyone aware that a private corporation is viewed as a "person", and entitled to the legal rights and protections the Constitutions affords to any person under the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment? This was granted by the Supreme Court in 1886 under Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company.

Repubs have screamed of union monetary influence of our leaders, and Dems have screamed of corporate cash influence. Both party supporters have lost in this misguided ruling. The floodgates of cash are opened. So much for McCain-Feingold, one of the best laws passed to reduce corporate/union influence for our elections. Google the term plutocracy. That's where we are headed.

Scott wrote: "How about sticking the government back into the tight Constitutional box the founders intended? The less power the government has over the people, the less harm can be done by corruption of any type. I think this is fairly obvious.

What thinks you?"

I wish it could happen, but I am not convinced that it is possible at this point and time. We may never see a time when it can ever happen. Our small, compact Government had a small, compact populace to oversee at that time.

Permit me to be a little philosophical.

It's hard to ignore the fact that concepts of loyalty and ethics have been replaced with out-of-control and utter greed. Everything revolves around money and how to make the most money that one can.

The middle class is disappearing as we speak and we are reverting to two separate and distinct classes of people --something that we have not seen in about a hundred years.

Little by little, the protections that were put in place over the past eight decades to allow an environment where all thrive to some degree under our economic system, have been all but whittled away.

Is more Governmental control the answer to the problem? Probably not, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that people who have control and power are interested in the least, in re-adopting the values that once made this country unstoppable as a shining example of capitalism that works for everyone.

Capitalism is absolutely the best system of economics, no question, but there have to be checks and balances to keep people from exploiting others to amass unreasonable wealth.

Greed is absolutely and undeniably at the root of our current economic woes and there is no way to deny it. Too many people are hurting at the moment and something has to be done about it.

Let's talk about compacting Government when everyone is back on the job, when people who are not smart enough to live a self-sustaining existence are given the education and assistance to achieve that goal, and when ethics, loyalty, and a little fairness are not restricted to traveling on one-way streets.

alprova,

Thanks for the reply.

You wrote,

"...there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that people who have control and power are interested in the least, in re-adopting the values that once made this country unstoppable as a shining example of capitalism that works for everyone."

I absolutely agree. This is the entire sentiment behind the "Throw the bums out!" movement.

An outbreak of Legionnaire's disease in the Capitol building might be a good thing. Hopefully all the lobbyists, bureaucrats and unelected functionaries would be involved as well. Oh well, to dream the impossible dream...

whatsthefuss | On: January 23, 2010 at 10 a.m.

wtfuss mentioned this one earlier, I had forgotten about it. Thanks for the mental jiggle.

Red Skelton was a heck of a guy.

""Boys and girls, I have been listening to you recite the Pledge of Allegiance all semester and it appears that it has become monotonous to you or could it be you do not know the meaning of those words. If I may, I would like to recite the Pledge and give to you a definition of the words. I----meaning me, an individual, a committee of one. Pledge----dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self pity. Allegiance----my love and my devotion. To the Flag----our standard, Old Glory, a symbol of freedom. Wherever she waves, there is respect because your loyalty has given her a dignity that shouts freedom is everybody's job. Of the United----that means that we have all come together. States----individual communities that have united into 48 great states. 48 individual communities with pride and dignity and purpose, all divided with imaginary boundaries, yet united to a common cause, and that's love of country. Of America. And to the Republic----a republic, a state in which sovereign power is invested in representatives chosen by the people to govern. And government is the people and it's from the people to the leaders, not from the leaders to the people. For which it stands! One nation----meaning, so blessed by God. Indivisible----incapable of being divided. With Liberty----which is freedom and the right of power to live one's life without threats or fear or any sort of retaliation. And justice----The principle and quality of dealing fairly with others. For all.----which means, boys and girls, it's as much your country as it is mine."

Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our nation, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance "under God." Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said, "That's a prayer" and that would be eliminated from schools, too? ""

Maybe I do need to write some letters.

humphrey,

I wrote,"Actually, in our local public schoolS, the kids don't recite the pledge these days." -- Should have been,"Actually, in our local public school, my kids don't recite the pledge these days."

I apologize for the confusion, I assumed the HamCoBOE had a uniform policy.

Now I've got another list to compile and start checking off. d:o

Thank you SCOTTYM for taking the time to post what I feel should be a school lesson taught and reviewed every school year. I dropped the ball on that one!! I found it very easy over the years to forget what all this means. Becoming numb to people burning our flag. Americans being executed in hijacked airplanes and their bodies thrown on to the tarmac. Perhaps a very to the point history lesson is in order. It never bothered me that there was another flag flown in the south. It does now. Heritage is something we all have. Flying a flag other than the one that represents the UNITED STATES of AMERICA is a slap in the face to all Americans. The same goes for flying the Mexican flag. As for god, I have taken a step back from religion. I also have no problem with one nation under god. Once again the foresight of our founding fathers. In god we trust. Not in jesus christ we trust. I still have yet to find those words written by the founding fathers. The radical fundamentalist christians insist that this be the new law of the land. {The Flying Spaghetti Monster} I find the GOLDEN RULE is a working model and a fine starting point in the quest for direction in whatever or whoever your god may or may not be. This is what was given to us by a group of very insightful men. Let Freedom Ring!! I'm just sayin!!

Good and faithful reminder Scotty. beautiful.

Many of our founding mothers and fathers did indeed believe in Jesus the Messiah, whether one wants to believe it or not. They, the mountain folks (both Black and White), and the "Rednecks", whom many like to denigrate, built this country wih loving hands, hard, hard work, sacrifice, blood and tears. They raised faithful, productive citizens whose blood flows in our veins. People of great Faith, whose songs still resonate within us.

The "Golden Rule" comes from the Biblical Word and Proverbs, thus, a Judeo-Christian heritage. We appreciate and love that about our peoples. We boast in our Lord, not in ourselves.

"The "Golden Rule" comes from the Biblical Word and Proverbs, thus, a Judeo-Christian heritage."

Christians did not invent this philosophy. Maybe the wording commonly used today but certainly not the idea itself.

You're right and wrong. Christians did not invent it, the Lord God of Israel did. And it's not a mere "philosophy". It's a way of living and acting. That's why Christian individuals and groups/Orgs give more time, money and resources worldwide than any other group of people, "philosophical" or not.

Whether Yahweh's dispensation extends back as far the Middle Kingdom--a bit earlier than what may have been his 14th BC debut--or as wide from the Levant as Egypt and the Aegean, well, we can leave that to believers and what sort of history they choose to believe.

But I have no doubt that Christians have been the primary folk who have made the teachings of Christ the very Salt and Light of a much better world.

Very few people have fallen in love in order to rise and become Fools for the teachings of Plato &c.

Many millions have fallen in love in order to rise and become Fools for the teachings of Christ.

The world has often been better for that teaching. Now if we could only live up to it.

That's a rather mixed blessing/comment, InspectorB. So you are saying Christ's teachings create Fools and Plato's does not? Hm-m-m, wasn't he a geo-centrist? A bit Foolish, that.

Although the Do Unto Others theme goes back a long way, Christians make up the largest religion in the world and, as you said, in utilizing it and Christ's other teachings, have done the most overall good. Not that it hasn't been a bumpy road getting there.

You are right, rolando. 33% of the world's population are Christians...the largest segment of the religious "pie" chart. Interestingly, 67% are not.

Equally interesting, Savarti; 2 1/2 percent believe only in themselves...the rest at least believe in SOMETHING other than themselves. Perhaps that is why the 2 1/2 percenters have accomplished so very little.

Inspector, your tongue is acerbic at times, particularly when you speak of the Wise One. Pray tell, if the teachings of the Messiah are familiar to you, why is it you don't mention that His Followers already know they aren't perfect? We and the rest of you should look to Him who created you, not to mere, foolish humans as we all are. "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone".

I would add, many more have fallen in love with themselves, to their everlasting disappointment and regret. The deathbed stories are legendary and oh so true. Hundreds of millions of grateful, saved individuals over the centuries do not lie and the Prophets of the ages who disturbed the status quo with harsh statements of Truth do not lie. Real life isn't pretty poetry, we cannot escape that either.

Rolando, at first I was upset by your remark about Atheists only believing in themselves but the more I thought about it, you're right, however Atheists believe in humanity and other people and not just our individual selves. As an Atheist I do take responsibility for my own actions. When I'm at work watching the sky and get extrememly busy, I save myself from whatever situation I've gotten in to (maybe next time I'll try praying, how would everyone like that?) When I was in Iraq, I made smart choices. We had some close calls but our own actions kept us alive.

Madalyn Murray articulated it best when she said:

"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now."

We also believe in reason. The earthquake in Haiti has a logical scientific explanation despite was Pat Robertson said. The same goes for Katrina and all the other natural disasters that have occurred on our planet. Another poster mentioned that none of the Christian charities in Haiti were damaged by the quake and it was very telling of God's wrath. It's crazy to me that we have educated adults saying these very things.

Well, well HiDef, I see you've misquoted me like many do here. I said none of the THREE charities I am familiar with have been damaged (to this date) and none injured. (Praise the Lord who made those precious kids). I said He looks after His own...and He does. I also gave a brief history of the politics and religion that have devastated Haiti over the decades. It IS very telling and a lesson for all.

You see, my dear, many of us have walked the walk while you guys just talk the bull-pa-tooties. Haiti and many other countries (including our own) are not just the latest "trend" in the media for Christians. They've been 'there' when no one else could have cared less. We KNOW miracles happen. We KNOW the power of prayer. Do not speak of that which you know nothing of. It just makes you all look more ignorant. And pathetic.

Madalyn Murray by the way, was no paragon of virtue herself. When you can tabulate all the good Atheists have done for the poor worldwide, throughout history, when you can count the hospitals, clinics, food kitchens, and other charities Atheists have built and run, then and only then should you repeat the propaganda-mantra from atheists that has been slathered in the media way too much these days.

My decades long read of history-both ancient and recent- shows that of all civilizations who mass-murdered other humans, took them into slavery, caused starvation by impoverishing them and taking away their ability to work and provide for their families, enforced abortion and poulation control methods, etc., the worst by a long shot had certain things in common = Atheism, Communism, Nazism, Fascism, Darwinism, and Idol worship (which usually practiced its twin favorite, human sacrifice). Certain faddish religions practiced around the world (and in the US) like Satanism and Vampirism, worship a god-like Being all right. But they sure don't set up and do charitable work for society and the poor on any grand scale, if at all. They're usually too busy accumulating blood 'products'.

It has been those who have faithfully and not hypocritically, followed Christianity, who have walked and talked the truth, who have done the things of God that no one else had the guts to do, who have lived and died sacrificially; these are the ones who know exactly what the words unselfish and generous of spirit mean. When they gave their lives to their Lord and Master, that is the day they became more than a mere, atheistic human being. They became carriers of the Light, the Spirit, the Truth and the Way, Jesus the Messiah. We are the empty vessel, the imperfect. He is the Power. And soon, all the rest of the Madalyn Murrays, the Margaret Sangers, the Darwins and the Maos will know this is true and weep. Pity you guys on that day.

Savarti, you nitpick. Christianity has the most proponents/followers of any 'religion' in history. Technically, it is not a religion or institution concocted by man. It is the Way, the Truth and the Life, it is Him.

The Bible/Torah, writings and the Prophets/The Word of the Lord/ The Living Breath of Life, is the most read Book on the face of the earth, since the printing press was invented.

Islam, (unfortunately, but hey there's a 'God Reason' for everything allowed to take place in our time), is the fastest growing human-made religion on earth. Now there's a religion of forced coercion if ever we've seen one.

Canary, I may have misquoted you slightly but I was focused more on the intent of what you said. You said that the fact that Christian entities were left untouched is no coincidence and that God protects his own, correct? So I have to ask then, where was God when hurricane Gustav hit and destroyed one of the Hands and Feet Project's children"s village in Haiti? I'm not really looking for an answer, just showing how goofy that type of logic is.

I will not deny that Christians have donated millions of dollars around the globe and traveled to far off countries but they do it mainly to preach and to indoctrinate poorly educated third world people, threatening them with eternal damnation if they don't follow God's law.

As for you "walking the walk", you seem to have done it all, seen it all and experienced it all. I will bow down to you since I could never possess any knowledge you don't already know. You are the ultimate one-upper and that I will never be able to compete with.

so long...

Hidef, you just proved again you are an expert Misquoter. You really are hi & def, aren't you?

I did NOT say "Christian charities", I said three that I am familiar with-now, during this earthquake. No one was lost in the Hurricane either. What He allows and what man brings upon himself, I have no say so in that.

You and your ilk will read into, believe, misquote, lie and misrepresent those of us whom you violently disagree with-namely because of our Christianity, no matter what we say or do. Some Christians are quiet and passive. You can intimidate those ones, but not me. I think that bothers you and your ilk to no end.

No missionaries I know "indoctrinate" children and adults in the Third world or even in the First world. Firstly, none of us have the power to 'convert' or change hearts and minds. The Spirit of the Lord does that work. Nobody threatens them "with eternal damnation". Those comments are sick, ignorant talk from the Left's gollum-sites or wherever you go for your "info".

Secondly, I have never said nor implied I have "done it all." From the sounds of some of you guys on these posts, you can't take the fact that some people have way more experience and/or facts of life than you do. That doesn't matter so much to me. Your lying, concealing and deviating from the truth does. With propaganda your 'teachers', whoever they are, indoctrinated YOU with. Know how we can tell? The difference is like night and day between those who do their objective homework and those who don't.

Canary, I didn't say "Christian charities" either, I said Christian entities. Here's your original statement:

"Surrounding villages and communities have experienced death and huge damage while the Christian projects are largely untouched. No coincidence this, for we Believers. We know He protects and blesses His own."

You can dance around the wording all day long but the INTENT of your statement is what I am pointing out. Don't get hung up on the semantics. I'm saying that it's contradictory to say God protects his own when natural disasters worldwide have killed many faithful Christians and destroyed their "projects". True, nobody died at the children's village in Hurricane Gustav but the building was a total loss. I'm sorry but if I truly believed in God and that he loved me, he wouldn't destroy the building I had built to help needy children.

I'm not trying to intimidate anyone as you suggest. The Bible teaches followers to get the word of God out to the people and that is their right, just as I have the right to question those teachings and beliefs if I think they are wrong.

As for missionaries, I searched the first five that came up on yahoo and each one discussed getting God's word out while on missionary trips. I stand by my opinion that Christian groups around the U.S. set up shop in other countries to make everyone else a Christian under the guise of humanitarianism. And sorry, I should have said threatens them with eternal "hell" in my last post. Let's cal a spade a spade, if you don't follow God's law and repent, you're going to hell for eternity according to the Bible, right?

Lastly, I was very conservative in high school and dropped out of college. Anything I have learned about politics and religion I learned for myself through reading. And yes, I read both sides of every argument for it would be a disservice to myself not to.

The intent nothing, you quoted out of context-again. The charities I spoke of were THE THREE I WAS FAMILIAR WITH. You are a nit-picker, distractor, in order to slam me with what you think are the facts and to slam my beliefs. You ignore the truth of what I said. NO missionary can "make" or "convert" another human being. And they all know that. Those are your devious words you've chosen to slam them and their faith. You need to go to these countries and ghettos yourself and pitch in with them, do some 'dirty work' for a change instead of assuming they are there "under the guise of humanitarianism" as you put it.

Instead of reading your Internet picks and telling us, who have walked the walk, how hypocritical we are. I'm sorry that your family so messed you up that you believe all Christian humans are liars and deceivers. That's why we point to Him instead of to mere humans.

Besides that, many of you guys need to confront your own issues, take them to the people who raised you and deal with it all. And look at the incredible evil going on around you, by some of your own 'kind' and by others around the world. Christians are far from being your main problem. Your sarcasm and despising of good people on this earth is really telling of who you are and what your agenda really is.