First Aid Kit

Mr.Bennett, I would advise you to actually read the bill ...if there was one for us little people to read. As a person working in the TennCare dept, it would be exhausting to explain the fraud and abuse. I shutter to think if this were on a national scale! Yes, I am a conservative, but not a Republican! Look to our own community if you want to see Obama care in action! Illegals do receive care...I have seen claims up to 500,000 on a single delivery charge! Of our TAX dollars! There is a boundless sense of entitlement in this city and much worse the country! Feel free to pay my share of the ridiculous tax....I will do so only because I am forced to by our overbearing government! Republican or Democrat!

Can't wait to read the same arguments that people have posted for the past year.

I thought the democrats controlled the white house, senate and house of representatives? I thought there was a mandate for change? Are the democrats just too cowardly to vote their conscience? When all you have to do is hope, the democrats are unbeatable. When they have to govern, they leave a lot to hope for. It must be a pretty bad bill for democrats not to vote for it. Why not an up or down vote? Why not a donkey on the lock too? This cartoon is stupid.

To think that trying to find ways to improve health care access in America is tearing the country apart.

America is a better place than this fight would suggest.

Let's look at the GOP health care first aid kit. First it has a lock which means that only those who have a key will be able to access their care. Let's guess what's inside the little kit: probably some bandaids to take care only of some minor issues, some aspirin with their solution of "take one and call me in the morning" and probably a map to Canada or Mexico where those who don't have the secret code can go and get help from their socialized medicine that takes care of average citizens.

dss is worried that today's cartoon will bring about boredom. He or she isn't interested in old arguments. Okay, let's spice things up then.

kittymeow offers her opinion regarding health care based on her view from the inside dealing with TennCare. Oh my...those darn illegals are at it again. They are scamming Tennesseans out of dollars by downloading babies that cost $500,000 to deliver.

Lets assume that she is right and that she knows for a fact all that she offers.

Have we become so inhumane that in a case where another female human being, regardless of their citizenship, experiences a complication during childbirth, that we throw both mother and child to the street, because it will represent an expense to the taxpayers, and because they "do not belong here?" Let's let them die on the street.

Why didn't I see this argument as the solution to the health care problem. Lets ONLY allow hospitals to admit legal citizens for treatment.

Oh, and while we're at it, lets solve the rest of problems people are having by allowing them to pass away if their health is poor, if they are over a certain age, and allow a firm denial for treatment to anyone who cannot pay for their health care.

Aw..what the heck...let's just line these people up and do the truly humane thing and have a turkey shoot every weekend until the country is rid of those with any hint of an "entitlement" mentality, as it may be defined by kittymeow.

Do you know what bothers me? It bothers me that someone will bitch about a mother who racks up a $500,000 bill, obviously representing an extremely troubling birth, will completely blame the mother during the diatribe, while overlooking the fact that a charge of half a million dollars, regardless of the circumstance, is the true outrage.

A half million dollars charged by a hospital and related staff would take most people somewhere between 15 and 25 years to earn, much less fork over to pay the bill.

But it's the patient's fault if they cannot pay their own bill. Where is the outrage that medical providers can bill whatever they want and expect that it will be paid..by someone or some entity?

I'm sick to death of Conservatives and their hypocrisy.

kittymeow,

I'm not certain who would be responsible for cleaning up the alleged mess in Tennessee but it would seem to be a state thing.

Obama Care doesn't yet exist.

I understand your angst about bureaucracy and waste.

How in the world did a claim for $500,000 on a delivery pass, and who benefited from the claim, the hospital, doctors, or patient?

I'm not understanding the basic situation.

One commenter gives observations rather than opinion, and two opinionators question her facts? Yesterday some Democrat said FDR had Social Security, LBJ had Medicare, and BHO is having health care. Well, SS and Medicare are broke, with $50 trillion or so in unfunded liabilities--money that should be there to pay for them and has been spent by our government, leaving IOUs. Two big programs are broke, so we need a third? Another little story said SS expenditures will exceed SS taxes THIS YEAR: it's not just broke in accounting terms, it will actually run short of money. Hmmmm. alprova, liberals are generous with taxpayers' money, often not with their own; Obama has a mansion in Chicago, his kin in Kenya has a shack. He stopped the D.C. voucher program and sent his daughters to a private school. Sure, there's hypocrisy on the right (some divorces come to mind); will you acknowledge some on the left?

Andrew- folks who think shallow compare Social Security to the cookie jar where mom kept her egg money. Social Security does not have this vault that the govt has raided cash for other programs. It is now and always has been a treasury bookkeeping program that will pay recipients as long as our govt of the people is willing to make intelligent decisions.

Clay, you have not only gotten stale, you are getting b-o-r-i-n-g.

The House, Senate, and Presidency are owned -- lock, stock, and barrel -- by Democrats and have been for over a year...as you well know.

Your "box" is locked by the threats of the voting citizens of the United States, not the Republicans.

But you know all that.

As with most Progressives, you will say, draw, and print anything -- anything -- to promote ObamaCare and to overcome the will of those you purportedly represent -- the American citizen.

Do something different...try something new.

alprova, you make me want to throw up! Give them all of your money and leave mine alone. Clara, I'm with you. How in the world did that charge make it through the system. The lock on the first aid kit should be a jack ass because those are the people trying to run our country and ram this piece of garbage they call a health care bill down our collective throats. Those of you that are for it, you better hope you don't choke on it if it passes. The sooner November gets here the better.

Interesting article in todays TFP.

"FACT CHECK: Premiums would rise under Obama plan"

Funny, Obama has a bad habit of getting things wrong, "mis-speaking" on facts and leaving out caveats when giving speaches. Not his fault though...the teleprompter told him to say it.

Just saying...

There wouldn't be charges for $500K if we didn't have government and big insurance companies involved.

It is wrong to say that ObamaCare is going to take over 1/6 of the U.S. economy. Medicine is half socialized already. That's right, half of that 1/6 is already being furnished by the government. And most of the other half is under the control of large corporations. That's the problem!

Before Medicare, Medicaid, and HMOs, almost everyone paid for his/her own routine medical care, prescriptions, etc. Insurance was for major medical conditions only. Doctor visits, drugs, and insurance were affordable for the average person. And, there were (private) charity hospitals for those who couldn't afford to pay.

Then Big Government happened. And the rest, sadly, is not only history but we are still attempting to deal with it.

Socializing what remains of private health care is not the answer. Getting the government out of health care is!

MountainJoe, spot on. Couldn't have put it better.

The most troubling thing currently with the process of this bill is that both the House and Senate want to use parliamentary procedure to pass a bill this large rather than a traditional vote. And then, regarding the House procedure, Pelosi says,"I like it, because people don't have to vote on the Senate bill."

Really?

I am so tired of this conservative argument that just because the Democrats have control of Congress and the White House that the Republicans are not to blame at all for the failure of this bill to pass.

If even ONE SINGLE Republican was actually interested in regulating the insurance industry or serving the interests of average Americans, the Democrats wouldn't need every single one of their Senators to support the bill in the Senate.

It's difficult to come up with any legislation on anything that everyone within the Democratic Party can support. But that's exactly what they have been forced to do when they face an opposition party that's so bound and determined to obstruct ANY health care legislation being considered.

95% of the Democrats in Congress favor some form of health care reform while Republicans are 100% opposed to any real reform, yet somehow, you try to put the blame solely on the Democrats? That's like a fire truck showing up at a burning building, and then half of the firemen sit around watching the others frantically trying to extinguish the flames. Then, when the efforts fail, the deadbeats claim it's not their fault because their were enough fire fighters to do the job without their help.

It's ludicrous!

Republicans are to blame for this stalemate, plain and simple. This bill could have been passed if they weren't whores to the insurance industry. I'll admit, some Democrats are no better than Republicans when it comes to promoting the interests of big business over the rights on the people on this issue. But all Republicans are no better than, well... Republicans!

Roland writes, "Clay, you have not only gotten stale, you are getting b-o-r-i-n-g."

What irony- roland accusing someone else of being boring.

Clay may being presenting a consistent view, but at least he finds new, imaginative, and VERY creative ways to express it. Rolando, on the other hand, keeps making the same points, in the same way, day after day after day after day. And he doesn't even use his own arguments, rather he regurgitates the same points and slogans (his constant use of the moniker 'dear leader', for instance) that litter the far-right blogosphere.

Rolando also writes, "The House, Senate, and Presidency are owned -- lock, stock, and barrel -- by Democrats"

Now, how many times have we heard lame argument? Talk about stale and b-o-r-i-n-g.

Thank goodness that, in this case at least, the Republicans are being Republicans (and a few Democrats are reluctant to board the express train to socialized medicine, too). Sorry, OllieH and alprova, that stuff just ain't selling here.

Besides, if ObamaCare passes, where are all the Canadians going to go for their health care?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkup/2010/02/canadian_premier_has_heart_sur.html

OllieH - The conservatives have proposed better ways than ObamaNationCare to work out the problems, only to be completely ignored by the Left, so why should they vote for something the American people DO NOT WANT.

You just resent the idea that this abortion of a health care bill will be laid directly on the doorstep of the Democrats come voting day in November...and that is exactly where it belongs.

You define "real reform" in health care as "No Way But The Democrats' Way". Well, you are getting it "The Democrats' Way"...and well over half of the American voters DO NOT WANT that mess the Dems have made of it.

It is a mess that will destroy America's health care system - the best system in the world, bar none - just as the Dems are destroying America itself.

But then, November will tell.

The American voters are remembering why they voted the Dems out the last time they controlled the Congress.

Ah. I see the truth still hurts you badly, doesn't it, toonyfan. : D

"95% of the Democrats in Congress favor some form of health care reform while Republicans are 100% opposed to any real reform,"

And here we have the far-left blogosphere.

Alprova,

Your ignorance is astounding! Do you actually think you could run a hospital any better? The doctors have to be paid. The nurses caring for the mother and the baby have to be paid. The administrator has to be paid. The environmental people (you know the ones that clean up the place) have to get paid.... I think you get the picture.

Not to mention all the equipment that cost Millions of dollars to purchase so that mother and her baby can get the best care available. Five Hundred Thousand is conservative in the department I work in. It depends on how many complications the mother or baby has.

As for the Repubs holding things up? That is ludicrous! If it were such a great bill and the people really wanted it, all the Dems would be in on it. But they are not because some of them actually have some sense. If it were a slam dunk, Big Daddy Obama would not be out campaigning for it… Obama is an Obamanation (Abomination for those of you who might get the pun, Alprova) to our society.

OllieH,

First off, let me remind you that health insurance is not a right. It is a privilege.

Secondly, The "deadbeats", as you so graciously called them, are opposed because they believe in the constitution... not a dictatorship, which is where this socialism will lead us. I don't doubt that B.O. would just love to be the first dictator of this country, with all of his cronies in D.C. as his servants. He THINKS he knows what is best for everyone and I don't doubt in the slightest that he is craving as much power as he can possibly get, starting with socialism. Socialism is not the answer to our problems. It will cause us to all end up under the thumb of one person and that person's desires. Is that what you really want?

If you think I am some rambling moron who doesn't know anything, do some research on past governments of the world and you will see that we are doomed to repeat the past if we continue the current direction in which we are headed. Quite frankly, it scares the Hell out of me. I hope I am wrong, but we will find out in the years to come.

In the mean time, we need to keep the gov't as small as possible in order to avoid that, like our founding fathers envisioned.

"Come November, If they're in, they're out."

I'm sorry to lose your support, quiet reader,but I quietly pointed out to kittymeow that the Obama bill was still not the issue here. I

I AM questioning the origin of the charges, and how the charges could be so high.

I think Alprova had the same questions, voiced differently.

I do agree with better care for all.

It took me years to pay off a $5,000 private hospital bill for a serious leg break and they tossed me out after a week, to fend on my own with crutches, instructions not to get on my feet and no one available to care.

If it hadn't been for the Veteran's SOCIALIST Care and some very good neighbors, I'd have starved to death. It took months before I was on my own feet and again productive.

Don't think I didn't try to repay my debt to the hospital and society. By the way, The VA hospital that took good care of me, really screwed up my credit, as someone did not forward my electric bills and other mail to my room, and they finally arrived at my house, months later, and I landed in court.

Musicman375 writes, "First off, let me remind you that health insurance is not a right. It is a privilege."

According to who? YOU?

If it's not considered a right, then why do emergency room patients get the care they need, regardless of their ability to pay?

Ollie, writes "If it's not considered a right, then why do emergency room patients get the care they need, regardless of their ability to pay?"

it is the care that is the right not the insurance. And they do get that care now. In our free enterprise society (as it stands right now) it is the responsibility of the individual to pay for that care. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. The dems want a few to be responsible for everyone else. And THAT is socialism at it's best.

"it is the care that is the right not the insurance."

I couldn't have stated it any better myself.

Ollie, Musicman said health INSURANCE is not a right. Not healthCARE.
Clara, having access to Veteran's services does not mean that service is socialized. It is the governments job to provide security to the nation (one of it's few and main jobs). To do so, it has to pay people who enlist (in whatever capacity). We pay taxes to support the people who serve our country. In order to attract people, the government provides benefits (which of course are paid by taxes as well) including healthcare during and after service. This is NOT socialized care. This is the government actually doing the job it is supposed to do. And offering employee benefits. The number of veterans (of any type, including active military) is such a small fraction compared to the number of people in the United States. It is much easier to provide said benefits to that number of employees and retirees than it is to provide for an ENTIRE nation. I have no problems paying taxes to support a veteran who served our country to receive retiree benefits. So do not equate government employee/retiree benefits to complete Socialized healthcare. As far as the cartoon, and to other posts: This is a scandal. The entire capitol is a scandal. We the people are being raped by the government and there are a lot of people that are getting tired of taking it. More bureaucracy and more government interference is the last thing we need. Any big “welfare type” bills passed by our government has turned into another bankrupt, corrupt, suicidal fiasco disguised as “for the benefit of the people” but really is just another way to give power to big brother. You put blame solely on republicans for blocking this bill? Well good then. Let’s praise them for keeping the government under control (somewhat. Well, at least in this one aspect). Though, all the praise can’t be given to just republicans. Cheers to the brave democrats who refuse to go in with the travesty the rest of their party is trying to create. Voting no to a fiscally irresponsible bill that does nothing but create bureaucratic nightmares is to be lauded.

I would willing to bet that, if all of you with your state or federal government funded health care, were to lose it, you would think that health care should be a right not a privilege.

I absolutely don't understand why those with guaranteed health care are so determined to make sure that the uninsured don't get coverage. What is wrong with people nowadays?

I will refrain from naming folks commenting here, but instead make it general for all of the country:

There must be loco weed in the water for all those who approved of spending a trillion dollars and several thousand casualties in a wasted war in Iraq, but think it's a waste to spend about the same amount on upgrading our health care system like those of all other modernized countries. Note, this list includes some Washington Democrats as well as most of the Republicans.

very well put Whoknows!!!

Savarti we already have government programs to take care of folks who need help without insurance. And there are many more private avenues to take when care is needed. There are foundations and funds set up for just such a need.

Excellent cartoon! It only lacks a key marked "Insurance Industry". I read the bill. There is no "socialized medicine" or other such nonsense in it.

Anything that can make the insurance industry dance around like little girls and pull in all their political favors can't be all bad.

Pity we can't get the House Democrats to "grow a pair" and just vote.

miraweb

so you read the bill eh? You also, of course, read all bills referenced as changed right? Which bill did you read? There's more than one. Since you are now well informed, please share with those of us too lazy or stupid to comprehend it all. What will it cost? Who will ti cover? How will it be paid for? Any unintended consquences?

For those who want the fed to review rate increases, a newsflash - the states already do that so you can blame increases on the regulators. Do you actually believe that moving that to the fed level is going to improve things? Do you have any concept of how much control the government, at all levels, already exerts over the medical delivery system?

savarti

What the retirees get isn't a right. It's a contractual obligation. The gov already "adjusts" their obligation frequently except for the part involving the SEIU - imagine that.

You asked "what is wrong with people nowadays?" a good part of the answer is that a lot of them swallow the pap they're being fed without question because it suits their own ideolgical framework.

How can it not be obvious that access to BASIC health care is fundamental to society. Maybe that basic coverage doesn't cover much,but it should allow anyone basic care without going to an emergency room. Above basic,buy a policy,or go without.

As now,money will ration who gets the best,most extensive care,but basic,minimal care should be available to all,period.

That's not socialism,that's basic humanity.

Nucanuck; Yet there is a school of thought that says basic healthcare (preventive treatment, annual checkups, doc in a box treatments) should not be covered at all, and should all be out of pocket. That insurance should only be for emergency care. You know, it would work the same way your car insurance works. If you take your car to get the oil changed, tired changed or rotated, a tune up or what not, you have to pay for it out of pocket. But if you are in a wreck, whether it is your fault or not, then your insurance steps in (or the persons insurance who’s fault it is, or both. Depends, but you all know that, right?). Many think that if healthcare/insurance were treated the same way, it would greatly lower costs and make it more affordable. I'd be interested to see what everyone else things about what nucanuck said, and about the other theory that I just mentioned. Put aside casting blame on Repub or Dems for a minute. :)
I don't completely have a side in this one. I'm weighing options and doing research.

Typical Bennett. Blame it all on the Republicans. How ignorant can one Democrat be?

For those too lazy to read:

Here is the House version of the bill in YouTube form. Sorry for the compression errors - that is from YouTube, not my original. The Senate version is about 85% the same, but you can read that one online

Here is the CBOs latest scoring of the Senate Bill:

http://wallstreetpit.com/19698-how-much-does-the-senate-health-bill-cost

This isn't rocket science, kids - it's just legislation.

Good observation, whoknows, but I have a question. Doesn't the deductible feature on health insurance serve this purpose? (regarding routine stuff) A decent deductible extends through annual physical exams, immunizations and even the occasional stitches or ear infection. Just like your house insurance should not cover a broken lamp (less than the deductible) it should cover repairs to a room damaged by a falling tree.

lkeith, from working in insurnace, I would venture to say that more than 90% of the policies I see do not charge a deductible for preventive care. The deductible is not usually enacted until Emergency care is taken. Most policies have a co-pay for preventive care such as paying $25.00 every time you go to a doctor and $50.00 if you go to a specialist. But not a deductible. Most of the policies I see, preventive procedures are covered at 90-100% after the co-pay is paid. Some don't even require a co-pay, but just pay it at 90-100% period. Just to add to my above comment; preventive health care also includes a lot of rx drugs. So in addition to insurance covering emergency care, there should also (possibly) a rider to cover rx if you have to take them regularly?

And just to ward off any comments about it only being ER care; by Emergency care, I mean any "greater" medical care, i.e. pre-postnatal treatment, oncology treatment, or basically any hospital treatment, in or outpatient.

miraweb - that's where you get your information??!! rofl - no wonder you think the way you do! geeez

Funny how quickly some run for the name calling as soon as they run out of actual arguments.

I got my information from reading the bill. I put it on YouTube.

Do try to keep up.

Some of us did not support spending a trillion on invading and occupying Iraq, nor do we support spending that kind of money on socialized health care.

If you're truly conservative, you oppose reckless spending both at home and abroad. We can no longer afford to be the world's policeman, and neither can we afford socialized health care.

I'm with Grover Norquist. I want a federal government small enough to drown in the bathtub.

whoknows

I would favor some form of your outline which would compel each of us to assume some basic responsibility. If it cost (for example) $40 (per visit) for a trip to the doctor,even the poor could find the $40,but doctor visit volume would fall dramatically across the board. Clearly,other responsibilities could be user expense or co-pay,depending. MRIs come to mind. Annual physicals,as you suggest,are another.

That would not eliminate the need for basic universal coverage however. The broken arm,the car wreck,the bad fall...those kinds of problems need some sort of universal access. We can't assume that everyone could produce the total amount of their deductable,so might therefore forgo treatment or be put in a bind.

Above basic care,it's all about rationing and whether we like it or not money rations almost everything.

The cost of this sort of basic health care would be limited by the pre-defined available proceedures. Anything more,buy a policy or practice watchful waiting.

Re: a right to health care (or insurance):

No one has a right to insurance. You want it, you pay for it. Don't want to pay for it, you don't get it.

You have a right to care for your own health (including the right to self-medicate ... which may be foolish ... but I think people have the right to be foolish). You have the right to freely exchange goods and services (money, barter, etc.) with other people (doctors, nurses, etc.) that you desire to help you care for your health, on mutually agreeable terms.

You do NOT have the right to force other people to care for your health if they don't wish to, or if you can't come to agreement on the price or other terms. You also don't have the right to force someone else to pay if you can't. (Some of us may choose to help you out of charity, but we have no obligation to do so other than our own consciences.)

That is liberty (freedom + responsibility). Once upon a time that is how things worked in America. Now we have socialism and the threat of even more socialism. Some of us are about fed up.

It isn't hard to see bills that are on the Congressional calendar. They publish the schedule online:

See: http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/b_three_sections_with_teasers/active_leg_page.htm

In another TFP article, Obama cites the tragic case of a Ms. Natoma Canfield to illustrate the supposed shortcomings of the current health care insurance system. After the Obama Health Care Reform bill becomes law, when will the Cleveland Clinic be compensated for their expenses in treating Ms. Canfield? And by whom?

I have no moral obligation or duty to pay for your broken arm. The government has no moral obligation to MAKE me pay for it; nor do they have the constitutional right to make me pay for it. If you have a broken arm and you have no insurance, it is your own responsibility. That's not to say that I won't give a man money to help him out in that situation. But that is my own FREE choice. Universal health care is thievery. I am 100% against anything universal. That’s not the debate I desired from my post. But the things you mentioned (broken arm, car wreck, bad fall) do not fall under the category of basic healthcare. I guess I didn’t make this clear in my post, but what I’m referring to is whether insurance companies (not government) should even cover anything under basic healthcare. Should insurance policies only cover emergency or major medical conditions and treatments? That is my question for the debaters. You can go to a family practice doctor for about $100.00 for well visits. For sick visits you can go to the same family practice doctor for about the same or go to a minute clinic or doc in a box for probably around $60.00. Or you can go to a specialist for $100-150.00. Some people make more visits than others. Some make none. It would be their own money they are spending, so insurance companies would not be spending money on those visits.

miraweb said:

"Funny how quickly some run for the name calling as soon as they run out of actual arguments.

I got my information from reading the bill. I put it on YouTube.

Do try to keep up."

Nobody, including me, called you any names. And, trust me, unless you've spent years on the provider side of the issue, you'll run out of arguments long before I do.

Yes you did and I owe you an apology. I obviously assumed (bad) that was your source. That you went to the effort of willingly slogging thru that document creating the youtube video is the mark of someone with the strength of their convictions. I salute you for that.

Having said that, you are not the only one who's read it (but I had to). Yes you picked up the bullet points. I refer you to my previous post as to analysis. The devil is in the details. The bottom line is this bill does nothing to reduce the cost of healthcare - note I said "healthcare" not insurance. Are there some needed changes in it? Of course there are but that doesn't offset the downsides. It is sad that all this sound and fury has been expended without meaningful structural reform.

How closely did you read the Wall Street Pit article you posted? Rhetorical question as we now await the CBO's analysis of the latest adjustment and accounting trickery - like using the same money to pay for two different programs. Do try to keep up :)

whoknows

Question for you since you are apparently in the insurance end - have you seen any impact, good or bad, from HSA's? Thanks

Thanks for the apology. Accepted.

I've been in the health care debate since 1982 and have seen it from inside an emergency room, inside of Medicaid, and inside of a cancer center.

People who assume that someone will take care of them and the hospital won't take their assets to pay for what insurers fail to pay, have not been paying close attention.

Twenty years ago, that was often the case. Hospitals had building grants that they accepted in exchange for giving free care. That money is long gone.

There are still institutions that provide tremendous amounts of uncompensated care. Many of these same institutions hire clerks to try and get Medicaid to cover the bills and then hire lawyers to take people to court to seize their assets to pay the hospital. You can declare bankruptcy, but only if you are lucky enough not to get sick for another seven to ten years.

Parts of our system work very well. Parts of it are badly broken and are creating a society that is not meeting our values or needs.

We can do a lot better - and this is a step in the right direction.

I'd love to strap on the policy rocket-pack and get us to a place tomorrow where this all really works the way it should, but our legislative process is a march of steps, not a magical superhero leap.

Who would support allowing the medical community to reform the Constitution? Yet most have no problem with lawmakers supposedly reforming healthcare.

Sailorman is 100% correct....This bill has nothing to do with health and care. It's all about insurance and lawyers.

I just can not believe that the intelligent people on this post who are for a National Healthcare. I for one do not want to be paying for the irresponsible crackhead women who go out and get pregnant by there pimp boyfriends who have a baby at 25 weeks that has to spend the first 6 - 12 months in the hospital. (I only use this as an example). That baby will then be riddled with problems for the rest of his life needing more and more healthcare.

That is what is happening now through our broken medicaid system. Since people don't have to pay for anything and they get all their healthcare for free, they don't care about their health or the health of their children. So it is a vicious cycle of healthcare growing out of control. Taxes will have to be raised indefinitely to pay for such uncontrol. And don't tell me that the government can control the people that take advantage of it cause they can't control it now...

When poeple get something for nothing, it cost us taxpayers everything!

Beyond being a little silly, that argument is just wrong.

Physicians who signed the constitution:

Josiah Bartlett (MA) Lyman Hall (CT) Benjamin Rush (PA)
Matthew Thornton (NH)

I think they did OK the first time. Even if there were more lawyers at the meeting.

I honestly cannot say one way or the other. For some, HSAs could be great, but not for others. It was actually cheaper for me to go with a traditional HMO co-pay product (not through my employer) rather than an HSA HDHP product offered through my employer (and I work FOR an insurance company). But that's just me personally. People should shop around. Even if their employer offers benefits such as that, shop around. You may find something cheaper for yourself. I do not deal with HSAs much at all in my line of work though. So sorry I couldn't offer more!

miraweb

"Parts of our system work very well. Parts of it are badly broken and are creating a society that is not meeting our values or needs. We can do a lot better - and this is a step in the right direction."

I agree 100% - right up to "this is a step in the right direction". It's more like one step forward and two back.

I've said it before. If the goal is reducing health care costs, I would bet that you could pick any five posters from this debate here today and make more and better improvements than this turkey of a bill will yield.

There was just a guy on the news talking about Mass healthcare - what's your opinion of that?

Although this is only a small part, I would think that a change that got all Americans linked with a primary care provider would help. I only believe this because I see what walk-in emergency clinics and ERs do when people arrive. I waited once when I had an infection; rather than treating it through my primary care physician I waited until I was in another city and went into a walk-in clinic. I was tested for everything including HIV and TB, given a chest Xray, things that my GP would not have to do. With records being available nationwide maybe this would no longer happen, but I learned a valuable lesson: a $40 trip + antibiotics became instead a $450 trip with unnecessary tests because I had no history with this clinic.

Sorry - I was wrong. Those are the physician signers of the Declaration of Independence.

The physician-signers of the Constitution were :

James McClurg James McHenry

My bad.

Thank you for the URL to the Congressional Bill Schedule.

I've bookmarked it. Miraweb, but so far I haven't opened anything as it takes too long. I have to figure out some things. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Today, just a short time ago, I was told not to call people stupid. I don't think I have and can only say that if I have, I sincerely apologize. I think we definitely have a smart bunch of people aboard.

However, I refuse to apologize for calling some output stupid.

You are certainly free to do likewise with my offerings if you feel it is relevant.

I admit to a great deal of ignorance and I am grateful for input that seeks to correct it, if it meets my criteria for honesty and is not political indoctrination.

Miraweb, yet they saw fit to approve the constitution without giving any power to fed over healthcare in the country? How thoughtless of them. Or maybe they realized that it is not, and should never be the government's reponsibility to govern our health.

oz - did I say that? Actually I think it's a bit about health and care but a lot more about control.

Well - its a strange argument to be petitioning the founding fathers about the role of government in health care. Not long before that it was considered a major move to let the Barbers and Surgeons, at the behest of the crown, license physicians rather than letting any fool with a leech and some whisky minister to the sick.

The founding fathers didn't mention much about bad Toyota accelerators either and I suppose if we let it go on long enough, enough people would be injured to put a dent in their market without resorting to a government having to insist on a pesky recall system.

Can't recall the founders saying anything about credit default swaps, mortgage backed securities, or misleading bond ratings but 10 million people losing their jobs from time to time is just the breaks, eh?

Grover Norquist is an anarchist, not a conservative. We've had a taste of the fruits of anarchy the past two years. Do you realy want more?

A previous comment said " I want a govt small enough to drown in a bathtub", which I thought was a humorous comment. But if this what some American folks really desire they should have lived in Haiti, even before the earthquake. This is a prime example of a small govt.

Sailorman...you are correct. Sometimes the hit and run thing while being distracted by "work" does not work out.

Let me rephrase it...I definintely agree with the "control" comment and the bill does little to lower the actual cost of healthcare.

Haiti is a prime example of a corrupt government, not a small and definitely not a constitutionally limited one.

Believe it or not, we had disasters in America before big government agencies like FEMA came along, and we managed to recover from them just fine. Case in point, compare the recovery of the Gulf Coast after Hurricanes Camille (pre-FEMA) and Katrina (post-FEMA) and let me know how well you think Big Government handles disasters.

Mountain Joe- true, but that was when folks cared about the neighbors, which is somewhat different now. Case in point, Americans are marching in the streets as I write in protest of their neighbors being able to access affordable health care. These are not the folks I would want to depend on in a national disaster.

Sailorman, I have an HSA with an HDHP. For me, it is great, but I rarely use my medical benefits (and hopefully it will continue to be that way) so it's hard for me to say it's the best way to go. I mainly use my funds for yearly check-ups, and routine vision and dental, rather than using it to meet my high medical deductible like a lot of people do, so I end up saving money overall because of that. My employer contributes half of my deductable into my HSA at the beginning of the year, and it is up to me to decide if any other funds go in or not.

Also, with an HSA, any unused money at the end of the year rolls over to the next year, unlike an FSA. I also use a debit card for my HSA expenditures, up front. I don't have to provide receipts and wait to be reimbursed later, like with an FSA. Another benefit is that you can also use the money to purchase a wide variety of HBA products such as Clariton D, Antacid, Bandaids, etc, simply by swiping the card. Again, not by being reimbursed later.

HSA's also allow you to be more responsible with your money, with the help of your employer. When I contribute to my account, the money goes in up front, footed by my employer. Then I pay it back to them in incriments on my payroll checks throughout the year (automatically deducted), or I can put it in all at once if that is better for me.

I like using HSA's and HDHP. There are no copays for medical, just coinsurance, which is the percentage I am responsible for after the carrier pays. This is usually a good thing, especially when it comes to prescriptions. You have to pay it all until the deductible is met, but then the cost is usually less than traditional Rx copays (most plans are either 10 or 20 percent of the maximum allowable charge).

There are probably a lot of other points of interest that I am missing here, but hopefully that helps some. If you have any other questions, I will try to answer them.

musicman - thanks

I have the same thing. I was just wondering if others here like it as well as I do. The reasons you give are exactly why I do. A good example of why medical care available with "no skin in the game" would not be a good thing. We are naturally better stewards of that which is ours.

Why not a "right" to efficient transportation? Why not a "right" to environmentally friendly electricity? Why not a "right" to meaningful employment? Why not a "right" to a small plot of land and a sturdy roof? Why not a "right" to 2.5 healthy children? Why not a "right" to free broadband? Why not a "right" to affordable filet mignon? Why not a "right" to a beautiful wife? Why not a "right" to live forever?

I can hope and dream for a utopia or I can work my ass off for a real and true and rewarding life. I choose to work my ass off. The rest of you can try to steal what is mine and what I might give to the needy. There will always be leeches and thieves. You know who you are. You know your own worth.

Basic healthcare should be a right. Period.

I don't know where nurseforjustice (lol) gets the information that there are programs for the uninsured. That is just plain b.s. How about programs for the insured who can't get their insurance companies to pay for their treatments? It's not there. As proof, I will post this link www.oneloveforchi.com. The only thing fair about the current healthcare system is rigged in favor of the health care and insurance providers.

And, Sailorman, a contractual obligation? To what do you refer...what the government owes you if you are in the military? What the government owes you if you paid into Social Security? I'd like to see that contract.

I think that those who protest loudest are the ones that are afraid that something will be taken from them.

It's very easy to sum up the Republican/Tea-bagger/Conservative positions into two sentences.

No one has a right to health care. one only has a right to die if they cannot afford health care.

Why deny it?

Okay...fine. You people don't want to do anything and will selfishly sit there not wanting any boats to rock in your little ponds.

Sooner or later, those of you opposed to reform will change your minds. It may be when you have a health care crisis, be it your own or that of a loved one.

It may be that your mind will change when you are thrown out like garbage by an employer or an insurance company, because you have become a burden to them.

Or...you may just change your mind when you find yourself unable to cope with the rising premiums imposed by your employer, because he can no longer afford to offer health insurance as a benefit any longer.

One way or the other, you will change your mind. Sooner or later, that boat you are floating in will be capsized.

After eating all of your words, I wonder how loud y'all will burp, and I'm curious if that burp will leave a little aftertaste in your mouth.

alprova......I know you are a victim of circumstances beyond your control and we all could be in your situation. If this bill had been in place. How would it have changed your situation? I'm not trying to be smart or mean. I'm just curious.

Here is what we have to look forward to for the next decade or so...

See http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704743404575127540906168462.html

The article begins with:

Quote

The Health-Care Wars Are Only Beginning

America will be in a constant health-care war if ObamaCare is enacted. Passage wouldn't end the health-care debate. Rather, it would perpetuate ObamaCare as the dominant issue for decades to come, reshape politics, create an annual funding crisis in Congress, and generate a spate of angry lawsuits. Yet few in Washington seem aware of what lies ahead.

We only have to look at Great Britain to get a glimpse of the future. The National Health Service—socialized medicine—was created in 1946 and touted as the envy of the world. It's been a contentious issue ever since. Its cost and coverage are perennial subjects of debate. The press, especially England's most popular newspaper, The Daily Mail, feasts on reports of long waiting periods, dirty hospitals, botched care and denied access to treatments.

A Conservative member of the European Parliament, Daniel Hannan, last year in an interview on Fox News denounced the NHS as a "60-year mistake," declaring he "wouldn't wish it on anybody." . . . .

Unquote

It goes on from there.

EaTn - lots of folks still care about their neighbors. But I will admit, the percentage of such folks has probably gone down significantly over the last 40-50 years.

However, I believe the cause of the decline in caring for others is not a reason to promote government involvement, but rather precisely due to government involvement. Once upon a time in America, caring for our less fortunate neighbors was our job. And we did it, whether it was helping clean up after a hurricane or giving money (and time, in the case of doctors) to charity hospitals.

When caring for others becomes the government's job instead of ours ... that's exactly when people stop caring and start resenting.

Caring for others because you truly want to help = the American Way = good.

Being forced to pay for bureaucrats to run programs to waste lots of money while supposedly caring for others = socialism = bad.

Rhetorical question, right Oz? You don't actually expect an answer, do you?

Gosh alprova, bitter about your life? I'm sorry for ya.

No one has a right to have others pay for his or her health care. If you want to equate that as a "right to die" that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. We all are going to die at some point, but some of us would rather live free while we are here even if our lives turn out to be shorter than they would have been under the loving care of Big Brother.

But you really should lay off the snide comments about how hard-hearted us nasty ole conservatives are. You don't know a thing about many (probably any) of us in real life. You don't know whether I took relief supplies to Mississippi after Katrina on my own time and dime (I did) or whether Rolando volunteers in a clinic or old folks home, or whether canary is a foster parent. (I kind of doubt the latter myself, but I don't know and it is not for me to judge what kind of person any of my fellow posters here in TFP cyberspace might be in the real world.)

Virtually all the conservatives and libertarians I know are actually very generous people, and I would wager that in the aggregate they help their fellow man as much or more as an equal number of liberals/socialists. But we want to do it freely, and not at the point of a government gun.

I know doctors and nurses who would gladly have cared for you in a charity clinic in the absence of Medicare, Medicaid, or whatever government health care program you are or were on. We used to have a charity clinic up here on Signal Mountain, but TennCare killed it. All those people went on the government dole instead of taking advantage of care freely offered by neighbors. Such a shame....

In Roe vs Wade it was the government that told you that you can not tell a woman what to do with her body.

Now with Mandatory Health Care you will have government ordering you that you don't have to right to do what ever you want with your body.

It is NOT 30 million people without health care. The figure is about 8 to 9 million. The other 21 million are young people, rich people Etc. that do not want health care. It is their right to refuse it, and this is suppose to be a free Country. Now the government is using it's power to force them to have health insurance in order to help pay for the health bill. The government will be in charge of 1/6 of our economy due to this health bill.

Doesn't this scarce the hell out of you?

Matthew 25:31-46 (New International Version)

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

We now know the Blue Dogs have all been neutered.

At least the castration didn't cost the taxpayers much. All it took was a threat...

Now for a REAL threat, one with sharp teeth and no leash, wait for Nov.

'Course it will be too late by then; Dear Leader will "Slaughter" all of his bills...or so he claims. We used to call that a dictatorship but I guess it is nothing at all these days. Bread and circuses from the Politburo in Washington, DC.

There is a prayer we can say for Dear Leader. Read it at Psalm 109, verse 8. Most appropriate.

Oz inquired: "alprova......I know you are a victim of circumstances beyond your control and we all could be in your situation. If this bill had been in place. How would it have changed your situation? I'm not trying to be smart or mean. I'm just curious."

Well for starters, my insurance company, that I had paid for ten long years, each and every month, might not have been able to cancel our coverage nine days after my wife was injured.

It might be that I might still have my job that I was fired from in January of 2009, and not have been unemployed for eight months.

In any case, I probably would not have had lost my prior business and had to spend the vast majority of my life savings over a five year period.

But who knows? We don't really know at this point what is going to be in any final legislation that pops out as a result of all of this infighting between our legislators.

The one thing I know without any doubt whatsoever, is that the Democrats have been trying to do the most to help the people most in need, while Republicans have slammed the door on ANY effort to change the system that also currently shuts the door to those in need of health care.

Rolando quipped: "Rhetorical question, right Oz? You don't actually expect an answer, do you?"

You Sir, of all people, have the least right to offer anything like the above.

You have NEVER, not once, responded to any challenge to back up those little turds you drop in here. You refuse to give anyone a courtesy flush either.

My reason for delaying in responding to anyone who requests a response is due to the fact that I am very busy at this time of the year...working for a living.

Mountain Joe offered: "Gosh alprova, bitter about your life? I'm sorry for ya."

As usual, you just can't see reality or past the tip of your nose. I'm not bitter at a soul. I am however quite disgusted by many.

"No one has a right to have others pay for his or her health care."

You've stated that at least a dozen times. I don't think there is anyone who is not aware that this is your stance on the issue. Why don't you record it in audio form, put it on a chip, install it into a Chatty Cathy doll, and then pull a string whenever you want to make your point?

"But you really should lay off the snide comments about how hard-hearted us nasty ole conservatives are. You don't know a thing about many (probably any) of us in real life...."Virtually all the conservatives and libertarians I know are actually very generous people, and I would wager that in the aggregate they help their fellow man as much or more as an equal number of liberals/socialists. But we want to do it freely, and not at the point of a government gun."

You obviously sell used cars for a living. Absent in the rest of your diatribe, are examples of your own "generosity," to which you can speak to with full authority.

Her ya' go Mountain Joe. The lid is about to blow off of this example of conservative generosity you attest to;

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/6938/sean-hannitys-freedom-concert-scam-only-7-of-charitys-money-went-to-injured-troops-kids-of-fallen-troops-g5s-g6s-for-vannity/

Off all the so-called "conservative commentators" out there, I find Hannity the least palatable (with O'Reilly closing in fast). Be that as it may, what that twit is doing in no way negates MJ's point.

Alprova and the other Socialists,

I would rather die on my feet then live on my knees. HINT! Put your thick knee patches on the inside of your pants so they don't show.

Come on Sailor, don't you know that since Alprova shows an article about ONE "republican," who is less than desirable, being greedy and not practicing what he preaches, that it is IRREFUTABLE evidence that anyone NOT democrat is a heartless, greedy, only-out-there-for-themself conservative? That just proved that MountainJoe is a liar for saying he is charitable. MJ, don't you know that if you don't disclose every charity, relief, or other philanthropic endeavor you have made, to the penny, there is no way we can believe you. No one is as taking... I mean giving, as the liberals. Which is shown in their desire to see us all pay for everyone else's failings, ineptitude, laziness, or misfortune at the point of a gun.

And Savarti's ignorance of what the Bible really teaches on this subject is showing badly.

Increased taxes for eveyone to have insurance is in no way showing charity to anyone as the scripture he quoted indicates we should. The Bible plainly states that if we don't work then we don't eat. Obamacare only perpetuates the problem for the poor. It encourages them to stay down and not make a better life for themselves.

And yes whoknows, Alprova is the all-knowing one. Didn't you know??? Really his name should be "Al-can't-Prova-thing". =)

Salesmen (or women) of the world should be watching Obama on TV right now. Half-truths, fiscal-babble, and psycho-babble abound and are enthusiastically received by the bobbleheads behind him. What an education in how to sell a heap of dung.

Regardless, alpro, it hasn't yet been answered, has it?

BTW, "Thanks for all the fish." Keep on workin' for me. lol

alprova....I have relatives that went through a similar situation. Like you, they were not looking for a free ride. They just wanted a fair shake. My aunt was fired after my uncle had numerous heart attacks, problems, complications, surgeries, etc. over an 18 month period. He was a burden to the insurance company.

However in my opinion these problems do not warrant a complete overhaul of the healthcare system. The problems should be addressed but the system is not 100% flawed.

If you damaged the fender on your car, you would not replace the whole car. You would repair the fender.

Oz, I know you're trying to be fair, but just like all the others opposed to measures being instituted to attempt to solve some of the more heinous issues surrounding our system of health care, you are looking at the problem from the outside in.

You probably have decent health care insurance. Chances are, it is provided through your employer. You probably are healthy. The health care issues that so many people want to see fixed are not affecting you on a personal level. And until the day comes that some of these issues sting you in your buttocks, you're not going to want to see something done.

Rolando? He typeth with a forked fingers. The man has his socialized health care plan, bought and paid for. So who cares what he thinks? He's a hypocrite.

Mountain Joe? He talks a good game. All used car salesmen do. He claims that if he were allowed to choose to opt out of all obligations to pay taxes, he would never petition the government for any assistance if he were suddenly unable to support himself or if he were to become ill. Of course he wouldn't. Millionaires will line up faster and shove that much harder to get to the head of the line to apply for those SS checks and they will howl to the heavens above at the thought of anyone who would dare offer to cut those benefits by one cent.

Nurse? Clueless is your middle name. I've stood my ground with more offerings of proof to back up my words than most people in here have ever tried to offer, including yourself.

I'm going to make one more point and then I am done.

Anytime the 'right' finds it necessary to demean socialized health care, they dig up examples outside of this country each and every time. What they cannot dig up, is so much as one example of proof that Medicare has caused so much as one death in this nation or has denied one patient to be treated for their malady.

Nothing is perfect, especially when people are involved in managing it. But the Government has proven time and again that they can run a decent health care program.

Yes, alpro, my health care was bought and paid for...with years of dedicated service to our country. I am STILL paying for it. Tastes a bit like sour grapes to you, does it? LOL

I made the right life-decisions...evidently you didn't. Tough s==t. So go back and change it. Stop depending on other people to pay your bills, Go to Canada...nucanuck will happily pay them for you.

Here is one more example for you of nationalized health care and this time it comes from right here in the Lower Forty-Eight -- Massachusetts. It has the only universal, mandatory-membership, nationalized health care system in the country...and it is broke -- in more ways than one. It is a total disaster and is based in part on Canada's system -- as is Dear Leader's ObamaNationCare.

So go whine somewhere else about your poor, selfish, Me-First, sob-sister life story. And stop attacking others because they made the right choices along the way and perhaps lost a bit in the short run but sure did make it up in the long one.

No wonder you feel as you do about military retirees.

If that rankles -- and no doubt it does -- please note the mistletoe on my shirt tail.

Thanks for a good laugh alprova. Used car salesman? Yeah, I've sold a few. But all of them were sitting in my own driveway, not on a company lot. Bought a few used ones too. In fact, in my nearly half century on the planet I've never bought a new one. You lose too much in depreciation when you drive off the lot. If only the government was as frugal with my money as I am....

I guess either you didn't read my comment about personally hauling supplies to south Mississippi after Katrina, or you just think I'm a liar. I don't really care which. I could name a dozen or a hundred examples of where I have voluntarily helped my fellow man (on top of what the government forces me to do) but clearly it would never satisfy you. After all, I am one of those greedy, hateful constitutionalists who insists that the government only do what it is actually authorized to do.

And speaking of Chatty Cathy dolls, your comments - if recorded - would make a pretty good sound chip for one as well. Pot, kettle....

Rolando wrote: "Yes, alpro, my health care was bought and paid for...with years of dedicated service to our country. I am STILL paying for it. Tastes a bit like sour grapes to you, does it? LOL"

It is not I who is savoring the flavor of hypocrisy.

"I made the right life-decisions...evidently you didn't. Tough s==t. So go back and change it. Stop depending on other people to pay your bills, Go to Canada...nucanuck will happily pay them for you."

As usual, you're lack of comprehension prevents you from reaching a logical conclusion. No one has ever been asked to pay any of my bills. I've paid my own way through life since I was 17 years of age.

You on the other hand made a conscious decision to become a Government hack. Is that a "right life decision?" I don't know about that, but as one who worked for Government for life, you have partaken of far more from the pie of Socialism than you would dare admit. Don't you get it?

Thank you for your service to our country, but that ended, according to you, two decades ago. You are now a leach who criticizes the very Government that has been extending it's teat to you for at least four decades, paying your bills, and that now stands ready to pay for YOUR health care expenses now that you no longer serve anyone.

The only choice you made was to accept a great deal of Socialism that you claim to deplore.

"Here is one more example for you of nationalized health care and this time it comes from right here in the Lower Forty-Eight -- Massachusetts. It has the only universal, mandatory-membership, nationalized health care system in the country...and it is broke -- in more ways than one. It is a total disaster and is based in part on Canada's system -- as is Dear Leader's ObamaNationCare.

The link to an article, published just three days ago was custom made for people with your level of ignorance.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34588.html

Pay attention to the line within it that states, "The law also made good on its ability to sustain these health insurance coverage gains without breaking the bank."

"So go whine somewhere else about your poor, selfish, Me-First, sob-sister life story. And stop attacking others because they made the right choices along the way and perhaps lost a bit in the short run but sure did make it up in the long one."

Nope. Sorry. You don't get off that easy Ronnie.

"No wonder you feel as you do about military retirees."

I don't have any problem with most military retirees. Most would never bite the hand that fed and continues to feed them. I don't see anyone rushing to defend your points of view.

Your twisting of my words to prop yourself up does not make it my condemnation of the entire military. I'm betting you spent more years in civil service than you did in the military, if the truth were known.

nurseforinjustice, I didn't misunderstand the passage from Matthew not even one bit. Clearly, it is YOU that doesn't get it. It is not ME that is showing woeful ignorance of the Bible.

But, they say, ignorance is bliss. These days, it seems that everyone chooses to remain ignorant...especially the radical right.

If you happen to pay premiums for your health insurance (I know many of you do not...you have your "free ride" and gripe the most), you already pay for those so called "charity" cases as the annual cost of a family plan is about a $1000 more per year to cover it. Why not be more upfront and pay that $1000 in taxes and cover everyone? Is this just too much common sense for the radical right to digest?

By the way, the Bible doesn't say "if we DON'T work, we don't eat." 2 Thssalonians 3:10 says that "if they WON'T work, they won't eat." Big difference in intent with just the change of one word. But hey, if you want to quote a book of the Bible that's authorship by Paul is questionable as to whether Paul actually wrote, over a book that quotes Jesus, then you go for it. Just don't call ME ignorant about the intent of the Bible.

Whew, rolando, I can feel the burn through my computer!

alprova, you're my hero tonight!

Mountain Joe Responded with: "Thanks for a good laugh alprova. Used car salesman? Yeah, I've sold a few. But all of them were sitting in my own driveway, not on a company lot. Bought a few used ones too. In fact, in my nearly half century on the planet I've never bought a new one. You lose too much in depreciation when you drive off the lot. If only the government was as frugal with my money as I am...."

Depreciation is only a concern for those who continuously trade their assets. I consider that to be rather foolish and a complete waste of money. But to each their own.

I, on the other hand, buy for the life of whatever it is that I am purchasing. Depreciation has never been a concern of mine, with the exception of filing for any relevant tax deductions for depreciation that are graciously offered by the IRS to those of us in business for ourselves.

I'm currently driving a nineteen year old vehicle that I purchased new. I paid $15,375 cash for it. I've spent about $200 per year to maintain it over 19 years. While people pay hundreds per month to ride around, I have averaged about $83 per month over the past 19 years to ride and glide.

Everything still works on the car, right down to the cruise control and the air conditioning.

"I guess either you didn't read my comment about personally hauling supplies to south Mississippi after Katrina, or you just think I'm a liar. I don't really care which."

I did miss that. Sorry. I retract my previous comment and offer a heartfelt God Bless You for your charitable contribution.

"I could name a dozen or a hundred examples of where I have voluntarily helped my fellow man (on top of what the government forces me to do) but clearly it would never satisfy you."

You're right. It wouldn't. Right is right and wrong will always be wrong. Private enterprise is not addressing health care issues for those who are falling through the cracks, nor is there evidence of charity that is meeting the needs either.

To suggest otherwise is just as laughable as it was when GWB began pushing his agenda of diverting Federal money to faith based charities in his failed quest to replace and shut down social programs that the Government has provided to those in need.

"After all, I am one of those greedy, hateful constitutionalists who insists that the government only do what it is actually authorized to do."

We've covered that one already. It's not the 1700's any longer. Necessity and need sometimes overrides tradition.

"And speaking of Chatty Cathy dolls, your comments - if recorded - would make a pretty good sound chip for one as well. Pot, kettle"

Really? Please, cite the relevant sentences that I have typed a dozen times.

Maybe you guys opposed to health care reform should read this opinion piece http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/20...

SavartiTN wrote: "alprova, you're my hero tonight!"

And you are mine as well.

I wanted to counter Nurse's assessment of the biblical story you posted, because he could not have been more off-base if a tornado had come along and whisked him to China.

His take on those verses only illustrate just how controversial the Bible can be, and how easily it is misinterpreted. This is the case, even though you posted an updated version of it in modern English.

Over the past few days, I have come across so many examples of people who simply refuse to understand or who cannot comprehend some very simple English.

Even more outlandish, are those who refuse to take the time to seek the truth to certain issues, when all it takes is a few minutes of research to discover it.

It's rather depressing at times.

But then, I'm not new to the game of debate. I'm definitely back on track after a couple of very bad weeks of family tragedy and drama.

What's depressing is reading through the above posts - ideological and religious poppycock from all around. Forget the bible. Look at the bill or, rather the bundle of amendments, and the silliness that's going in to getting this thing passed. Hardly the mark of well-crafted, good for the country legislation. Look at the numbers - trickery reigns supreme. You really believe 10 and 20 year projections?

This legislation will not "save" the health system. It will bankrupt the states. It will result in lower quality care. It does nothing to reduce costs. It does nothing to address higher premiums. In fact, as a result of new taxes, exacerbates the problem. I could go on but why waste time?

Of course, we really don't have to worry about it for a while since all we have to do for the first four years is pay for it. None of the "benefits" kick in until late in the game. Anything could happen between now and then.

So you took the mistletoe option, alpo. Make room for savarti.

Again, "Thanks for all the fish."

You mean the mistletoe right next to your lips, rolando? Cause I clearly see where you keep your head.

Sailorman, I only used the Bible verses as it seems that it is the only book that the Radical Right ever reads and, therefore, I thought that they might could understand some of the concepts but, alas, clearly not. My effort was wasted.

Read my post to alpo, sevarti. It spells it out quite clearly, even for you.

I did, too, rollindoo, you just didn't get it. So, here is a play by play account:

rollindoo says to alprova "If that rankles -- and no doubt it does -- please note the mistletoe on my shirt tail." Direct interpretation would be that alprova can kiss rollindoo's a#$.

At 6:39 am, rollindoo says "So you took the mistletoe option, alpo. Make room for savarti." Ooo...this indicates that rollindoo is telling savarti to kiss his a#$, too.

At 2:35 pm, Savarti counters "You mean the mistletoe right next to your lips, rolando? Cause I clearly see where you keep your head." This seems to be a direct indication that Savarti thinks that rollindoo's head is UP his a#$.

At 4:31 pm. rollindoo responds, "Read my post to alpo, sevarti. It spells it out quite clearly, even for you." HELLO, ROLLINDOO! You CANNOT possibly be serious here, right? Geez, even a 5th grader would have gotten the innuendo.

And here, folks, is a classic example of the intelligence of rollindoo.

BobMKE says:

"It is NOT 30 million people without health care. The figure is about 8 to 9 million. The other 21 million are young people, rich people Etc. that do not want health care. It is their right to refuse it, and this is suppose to be a free Country. Now the government is using it's power to force them to have health insurance in order to help pay for the health bill. The government will be in charge of 1/6 of our economy due to this health bill.

Doesn't this scarce the hell out of you?"

No, what scares the hell out of me is people like you stating downright lies about the state of the uninsured in the United States.

First of all, the number of uninsured stands at about 45 million. And you are ABSOLUTELY wrong about the majority of them are young, rich people. Maybe you should get your facts straight before making up some random crap.

Here you go...straight from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. These are 2005 statistics. The situation is even worse today. But, it even has graphs to make it easier to understand: http://aspe.hhs.gov/health/reports/05/uninsured-cps/index.htm

The true estimates of those that can afford insurance but don't are at about 20-25%.

Yesterday, I met a man who has worked at WalMart (the only job in Chattanooga that he could get) for 4 years. He makes $10/hr but gets about 35 hours of work time per week (the WalMart way). Family insurance benefits would cost him $5000/yr. That's more than a week and a half wages each month just to cover the premiums.

A few weeks ago, I met a woman who was taking care of her quadriplegic son who is 30+ years old. He had had a job and health insurance until a surgeon nicked his spine during neck surgery and paralyzed him. He was fired and lost his health insurance. He receives a minimal amount of Social Security but Tenncare recently kicked him off the rolls.

Considering these examples, I have to ask you "Does America need health care and insurance reform?"

"Does America need health care and insurance reform?"

Absolutely! It's a shame this bill isn't the reform we need.

It's a crying shame this is nothing more than a thinly disguised tax increase and extension of entitlement programs. It's a crying shame those dungheads in Washington have put on display of political power jockeying that numbs the average citizens mind. It's a shame there's something for everybody except the struggling middle class taxpayer who gets not only a tax increase but a premium increase as well. It's a crying shame they chose to play politics and welfare state rather than actually reform anything.There's plenty of shame in DC today.

And, please, enough with the weepy examples.

Well stated, Sailorman. Kudos.

Alpo whined --

“It is not I who is savoring the flavor of hypocrisy. “

Perhaps, perhaps not…what you ARE doing is whining about the unfairness of life – a patently unfair process. Whine away, my child.

“I've paid my own way through life since I was 17 years of age.”

So why whine about it now and beg for a National Health Service to give you what you chose not to buy.

“…but as one who worked for Government for life, you have partaken of far more from the pie of Socialism than you would dare admit. Don't you get it?”

Obviously, YOU don’t “get it”. As with every written contract between the government and any other entity – and it is indeed an “Enlistment Contract” – both parties must gain something for the contract to remain valid. The one side pays with one thing of value in exchange for something of equal monetary value from the other side with the terms well settled in advance. This is capitalism at its height.

“You are now a leach who criticizes the very Government that has been extending it's teat to you for at least four decades, paying your bills, and that now stands ready to pay for YOUR health care expenses now that you no longer serve anyone.”

The first part of your whiny diatribe is what is known as the First Amendment’s Right to Free Speech, something your ilk despises.

The latter part is EXACTLY what the government contracted to do well in advance of any payment. It is most assuredly NOT doing it out of the goodness of its heart. It is well known that governments have no heart…only contracts.

“The only choice you made was to accept a great deal of Socialism that you claim to deplore.”

I called in the debt owed by the party of the first part, the government.

Con't from "alpo whined" above

“The link to an article, published just three days ago was custom made for people with your level of ignorance.”

And MY link was custom made for people with your degree of sloth, blinder-vision, and just plain laziness, alpo.

Your cite’s byline is “A Living Diary Of The Obama Presidency”. Politico.com indeed; why don’t you just say ABCWhiteHouse.

“Pay attention to the line within [the cite] that states, "The law also made good on its ability to sustain these health insurance coverage gains without breaking the bank."

I in turn will cite http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-broken/ The Prez is an habitual, inveterate liar who will say and do anything to get his childish way, including throwing his friends, mentors, grandmothers, aunties, and the rest of us under the bus. And tantrums, of course.

“Nope. Sorry. You don't get off that easy Ronnie.”

Yeah, you find it easier to attack others for their strong life choices while you watch yours go down the tubes. Talk about choosing the “easy” path…that’s the only way you’ve known, up until fate took a hand.

“I don't have any problem with most military retirees.”

Sure you do, else you wouldn’t have made that highly significant Freudian slip about military retirees becoming “a burden on society” the day they retired. You just compounded the slip by implying that our military gratefully accepts the government’s dime while no doubt groveling in awe before it for the opportunity to risk their life for it. Tell that to some crusty old gunny with ribbons from his lapel to his spotless white belt. He will do more than just bite your hand.

“Your twisting of my words to prop yourself up does not make it my condemnation of the entire military. I'm betting you spent more years in civil service than you did in the military, if the truth were known.”

Your words stand on their own for what they are, alpo. As does my military record.

Sailorman, those "weepy" examples are REAL Americans dealing with REAL problems. You probably can't relate to them, given your moniker, because you, like rollindoo, have your health care taken care of. It is a shame that all you can see are "weepy" examples.

SavartiTN

What kind of idiot are you? Nevermind, your comments speak for themselves.

I know all about real Americans with real problems. My father is one of them. I don't need an endless parade of staged sob stories to know the system needed reform. See my post above..

What makes you think my healthcare is taken care of? I pay for mine just like anybody else. Now I'll get to pay more for less.

Get a grip.

I suppose that I am the kind of idiot that questions why people feel like they can attack and call other people idiots.

My apologies for assuming that your moniker has anything to do with military service. For all I know, it could just indicate that you had been a member of the Village People.