published Thursday, October 28th, 2010

Community looks to revive prayer


by Michael Stone

Circled around the pavilion at Veterans Memorial Park in Soddy-Daisy on Wednesday evening, a crowd of several hundred listened as preachers and musicians conveyed the need for a "revival" of prayer in the area.

"Prayer has got to be a lifestyle," said Don Oscai, an assistant coach and chaplain for the Soddy-Daisy High School football team. "When it becomes a lifestyle, there's nothing that any superintendent or anybody else can do to prevent that."

Onlookers cheered at Oscai's reference to Hamilton County Schools Superintendent Jim Scales' Oct. 19 decision to ban prayer over loudspeakers at public sporting events and graduations in the county. His decision came after some Soddy-Daisy students complained to the Freedom from Religion Foundation about such prayers.

  • photo
    Staff photo by Jake Daniels/Chattanooga Times Free Press -- Oct 27, 2010 Attendees to the Soddy-Daisy prayer meeting on Wednesday listen to a speaker. In reaction to Hamilton County schools banned school-sponsored prayer, supporters gathered at Soddy-Daisy's Veteran's Park for a prayer meeting on Wednesday afternoon.

Scales said Wednesday night in a phone interview that decisions like that are "difficult" but have to be made in accordance with U.S. Supreme Court rulings.

"It's not an anti-prayer decision," he said. "We're just following what has become the law based on court decisions."

He said he supported Wednesday night's gathering.

"As long as it's student-led and we don't have staff involved, that's perfectly acceptable," Scales said.

In attendance was school board member Rhonda Thurman, whose district includes Soddy-Daisy. She has voiced opposition to the ban since the decision earlier this month.

"I'm absolutely opposed to the ban," she said after the event's last prayer. "This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, and anybody who says any differently is wanting to rewrite American history."

Event organizer Shelton Brown, a 17-year-old Soddy-Daisy High senior, said the students who complained "have every right to say what they want to say."

"I have nothing against them," he said. "When someone had complained, basically I thought, 'I have a part in this and I want to stand up for what God's given me the gift to do, which is stand up for my faith.'"

Brown said those students who complained have been ridiculed "not from me, but from other students."

Both Scales and Thurman said they had not heard of students being picked on.

The school board is scheduled to discuss the issue of prayer at public schools tonight at its meeting.

Those at Wednesday's gathering indicated that a student-led prayer will take place Friday at Soddy-Daisy's home football game against Cleveland without the assistance of a loudspeaker. A similar prayer gathering took place before Soddy-Daisy's last game against Rhea County.

Continue reading by following these links to related stories:

Video: Soddy-Daisy football prayer

Article: School prayer ban ignites backlash

Editorial: School prayer and the law

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pinkfloyd said...

I believe in the power of prayer and have seen it in action but the people in Soddy Daisy have it wrong. The problem is exclusion. What if a person does not get up and pray or join everyone down on the field for a group prayer because thei beliefs are different? Will they be shunned? If a kid on the team is muslim and he doesn't join in the group prayer will he get different treatment from the coach? I don't know the answers to these questions but if I were one of those people who did not join in I would feel the pressure to join in even if it were against my beliefs for fear of retribution. instead of group prayer a moment of silence to say what you want to say to whoever you say it to would be an easy answer.

October 28, 2010 at 5:27 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

How about we tax churches to pay for schools, since people are determined to make schools a M-F extension of churches?

October 28, 2010 at 7:21 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

Perhaps even set up science, critical thinking and US History classes outside of churches.

October 28, 2010 at 7:27 a.m.
XMarine said...

If you want to pray then please do & quit making a big deal out of it.Leave the rest of us alone.PLEASE.

October 28, 2010 at 7:43 a.m.
HiDef said...

All excellent ideas lkeithlu, eeeeeek and wildman. The only think I would add wildman is to change the ridiculous law that you can't sell high alcohol beer in regular stores. I will continue to travel south of the border for beer purchases as long as Tn continues to discriminate against beer above 6% :-)

October 28, 2010 at 7:46 a.m.
clinthardwood said...

When the towns in SE Michigan that are becoming Muslim majority, such as Dearborn, decide to have the 5 time daily call to prayer in schools and on city loudspeakers, will that be OK?

October 28, 2010 at 9:03 a.m.
ChrisSteves said...

Wildman,

Your statements are seriously inaccurate. "Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and George Washington were deists. All of the aforementioned names wrote in books and letters they authored an utter DISBELIEF in the bible as the word of God,"- I know you went to public school but George, Ben, and both Johns absolutely believed in God and our Creator. Now you can take certain statements they made and try to make yourself believe they were deists. But the facts over the course of their entire lives and body of work absolutely prove otherwise. Additionally Thomas Jefferson was not a deist but throughout his life challenged HIS OWN belief if a God. Same with Thomas Paine. Please go read a book and stop watching MSNBC.

October 28, 2010 at 9:05 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

clinthardwood: "When the towns in SE Michigan that are becoming Muslim majority, such as Dearborn, decide to have the 5 time daily call to prayer in schools and on city loudspeakers, will that be OK?"

No it would not be okay. EVER. It is just as unconstitutional as Christian prayer over the loudspeakers at school.

October 28, 2010 at 9:08 a.m.
junepop55 said...

ChrisSteves - go look up the definition of the word DEIST

October 28, 2010 at 9:17 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

ChrisSteves - Thanks for the laugh.. you need to read a book.. it's called a dictionary.. Please don't wait for the movie.

Deists do believe there was a creator, but that it has nothing to do with it's creations.

October 28, 2010 at 9:18 a.m.
Lefty said...

"This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, and anybody who says any differently is wanting to rewrite American history."

Rhonda Thurman is appallingly dim. The fact that she is continually re-elected by the people of Soddy Daisy says all that needs to be known about any of them.

Based on her continued idiotic responses to, well everything, it seems as if she hasn't read history the first time- much less the "rewritten version."

This country was founded on freedom, and not just for one group of religious zealots. Our founders knew what they were doing when they decided to keep the church out of state business.

October 28, 2010 at 10:02 a.m.
clinthardwood said...

One day, coming soon to southside Chicago, Dearborn, San Jose, and other "culturally diverse" cities over blaring loudspeakers:

"Allaaaaah akbar! lâ ilâha illallâh, Muḥammadur rasûlullâh!"

I'm sure we'll all love having the shoe on the other foot.

October 28, 2010 at 10:03 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

clint, you have evidence that these cities plan on violating the constitution? If not, then you have nothing to offer. If they do this, the ACLU will be on them immediately.

October 28, 2010 at 10:11 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

clinthardwood

The group "Americans United for Separation of church and state" and "FFRF" will be always be there to put a stop to it if anyone even considers doing it.

Perhaps you could make a tax deductible donation or become a member to make sure they can.

October 28, 2010 at 10:12 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

It really seems to rile you libs that the citizens of Soddy Daisy do not want to follow your dogma. It is one thing to have an opinion but this looks more like a crusade (pun intended).

Why don't you stop trying to impose your opinion on everyone and worry about yourselves?

October 28, 2010 at 10:15 a.m.
clinthardwood said...

"clint, you have evidence that these cities plan on violating the constitution? If not, then you have nothing to offer. If they do this, the ACLU will be on them immediately."

Michigan: the Islamic capital of the US

By Sher Zieve

As of 2005, Michigan held the largest and still growing Muslim population in the United States and the second largest Arab population outside of the Middle East. Outside of Muslim-run countries, Paris — which still experiences nightly vehicle torchings and mayhem in its Islamic neighborhoods — has the largest. It is estimated that eight million Muslims now live in the US and their numbers are continuing to grow. Islam is now the second-largest religious body in the United States and is said to be its fastest growing religious movement.

Although hundreds of long-time residents of Hamtramck, MI protested the city allowing the five-times-per-day Muslim call to prayer to be broadcast over Hamtramck's loudspeakers, the city council voted unanimously in April 2004 to allow it. Prior to the city council making its decision, public input from any citizens (except Muslims) had not been allowed. This continues today. Hamtramck resident Bob Golen was outraged by the city council's actions and said: "So they had made up their mind before any public meeting and it's been five-nothing ever since. This is only the beginning. They're going to use Hamtramck as a precedent. This is coming to your town, to the town down the road, and to the [next] town down the road." Golen added that, after the city council voted to allow the calls to prayer, one of the city councilmen said that he was "proud to set a precedent in this country."

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/zieve/070111

October 28, 2010 at 10:17 a.m.
XMarine said...

MIDDLE EASTERN RELIGIONS seem to be the cause of most trouble in this world.They just can't accept the fact that not everyone believes as they do.And it makes them paranoid & causes them to go bananas.

October 28, 2010 at 10:17 a.m.
Lefty said...

RELIGIONS seem to be the cause of most trouble in this world.They just can't accept the fact that not everyone believes as they do.And it makes them paranoid & causes them to go bananas.

(corrected)

October 28, 2010 at 10:21 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Lefty, You are accepting the same argument that the communists use to abolish religion. In reality, social engineers do not like the competition from religion, especially wrt a moral framework. In order to accept collectivism you have to accept that taking from one to give to another is just. A more rational way to look at redistribution is that it is legalized theft. They (you too?) REALLY don’t like the thing about not coveting your neighbor’s property, since to covet is a prime tool in their philosophy.

October 28, 2010 at 10:29 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

renewamerica is not a reliable source.. try again please.

I've seen more reliablity on the covers of magazines in the checkout line.

October 28, 2010 at 10:38 a.m.
clinthardwood said...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-25-muslim-special-treatment-from-schools_N.htm

By Oren Dorell, USA TODAY Some public schools and universities are granting Muslim requests for prayer times, prayer rooms and ritual foot baths, prompting a debate on whether Islam is being given preferential treatment over other religions. The University of Michigan at Dearborn is planning to build foot baths for Muslim students who wash their feet before prayer. An elementary school in San Diego created an extra recess period for Muslim pupils to pray.

At George Mason University in Fairfax, Va., Muslim students using a "meditation space" laid out Muslim prayer rugs and separated men and women in accordance with their Islamic beliefs.

..... At the forefront of the movement is the Muslim Students' Association, which has formed a Muslim Accommodations Task Force to push for foot baths and prayer rooms. At least 17 universities have foot baths built or under construction, including Boston University, George Washington University and Temple University, and at least nine universities have prayer rooms for "Muslim students only," including Stanford, Emory and the University of Virginia, according to the MSA's website. The association did not return calls seeking comment.

At George Mason University, non-Muslim students were asked to observe Muslim rules in the prayer area, such as keeping men on one side and women on the other and removing their shoes, according to Broadside, the school newspaper. Alissa Karton, assistant to the vice president for student life, said the article prompted the school to order students to roll up prayer rugs when not in use and move the dividers.

The University of Michigan agreed to install foot baths after talks with the MSA, said Terry Gallagher, director of public relations at the campus. Some Muslims ritually wash their feet before praying five times a day.

Daniel Pipes, founder of the Middle East Forum, a conservative think tank, sees the requests as part of a movement to force the public to acquiesce to Islamic law.

"The goal of Islamists is the application of Islamic law," Pipes says.

In the San Diego case, a substitute teacher at Carver Elementary School alleged that teachers were indoctrinating students into Islam. The San Diego Unified School District determined that a teacher's aide was wrong to lead Muslim students in prayer. Carver still has a special recess to allow 100 Muslim students to pray.

October 28, 2010 at 10:45 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Well, clint, it is your job (as is it all of our job) to let the ACLU know that this is happening and urge them to check it out. If broadcasting prayer (of any stripe) is allowed by the first amendment, it will stand. (as long as it is the church that does it) I wouldn't want to listen to it, but if it doesn't violate code or free speech, what I like doesn't matter. On the other hand, if tax-supported groups (schools and government) are doing it, then the ACLU and other groups should step in, legally if necessary.

October 28, 2010 at 10:45 a.m.
realityrox said...

"Both Scales and Thurman said they had not heard of students being picked on."

Both Scales and Thurman aren't very aware, are they?

Bullying and abuse is common in all schools. Private and Public.

The teachers and administration who want to pretend that it doesn't happen, should be fired.

October 28, 2010 at 10:48 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

AFAIK, public universities provide chapels for their students to use at their discretion. Footbaths are no different. To ask students to respect religious space is appropriate; schools don't let students hold drunken parties in their chapels, I imagine, and ask people who enter to behave and dress appropriately. Why would this be any different?

October 28, 2010 at 10:49 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: realityrox | On: October 28, 2010 at 10:48 a.m. Both Scales and Thurman said they had not heard of students being picked on (about religious beliefs)."

Are you suggesting that we should assume students were being picked on over religious beliefs? What do you base that on realityrox?

October 28, 2010 at 10:52 a.m.
librul said...

Such demonstrations are just typical of the pompous arrogance so characteristic of weak-minded christionists. The veterans your PUBLIC park was created to honor served and died to preserve the rights and freedoms of all Americans - not just christian Americans.

You are afraid or angry (or both) of what reason, logic and the reality of the law put before you so you think you can simply deny them. Thus, you have to gather together in mobs where you can get reassurance from each other that your "faith" confers on you the special right to such denial. (We all say so so it must be true).

It doesn't matter to you what the rest of society believes or that others' rights are held to be just as legitimate; it doesn't matter on what grounds the country was actually founded or what the founders actually believed; it doesn't matter what history says or what science says. All that matters is what your Bronze Age book of blather says or what your ill-informed preacher says. You are so entirely invested in fantasy that you actually think you can define reality for everyone.

Earth to christionists - you cannot. Others have rights, too. You have the right to believe what you believe but NOT the right infringe upon or subjugate the rights and beliefs of others. You cannot appropriate instruments of the government which belongs to ALL of us, to advance your own narrow beliefs.

You blithely ignore the admonition of Jesus to pray in private "not like the hypocrites who would be seen of men" showing your lack of understanding of the core of his teaching. Your preachers have obviously failed you.

Simply put, your display is as offensive as it is pitiful. Even I would pray for you if it weren't such a colossal waste of time and effort.

October 28, 2010 at 10:55 a.m.
Lefty said...

"You are accepting the same argument that the communists use to abolish religion. In reality, social engineers do not like the competition from religion, especially wrt a moral framework. In order to accept collectivism you have to accept that taking from one to give to another is just. A more rational way to look at redistribution is that it is legalized theft. They (you too?) REALLY don’t like the thing about not coveting your neighbor’s property, since to covet is a prime tool in their philosophy."

While your theories are fascinating, they seem to have no basis in fact. My issue with religion (all of them) is that they also have very little basis in fact. Religion is used as a means to control those who are not bright enough to think for themselves. In regards to my coveting of my neighbor's property, unlike your fellow sheep, I don't reject parts of your commandments. I reject your entire book.

October 28, 2010 at 11:04 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

You don't have to accept a particular religion or any part of any religion to recognize that religion has had positive influences on humanity for a very long time.

It is very simplistic to only pick out what you don't like about religion, or anything for that matter, and discount it in its entirety. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

October 28, 2010 at 11:09 a.m.
realityrox said...

I'm not suggesting. I'm telling. First hand experience.

I take care of my nephew while my sister-in-law is in Afghanistan. He has come home often with the pains I used to have when I was abused in school.

Being there for him throughout it did reveal it did have something to do with the god thing for him.

It took a long time for him to open up. I've done what an uncle can at the school and for the others parents.

Since you are so fond of the abuse of children, I shall refer to you as littlehillcoward.

You disgust me.

October 28, 2010 at 11:16 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

One does wonder what is really in the hearts of those who are pushing this issue. We know what Jesus had to say about “showcase” prayer:

“Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you” (Matthew 6:5-6)

October 28, 2010 at 11:19 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Sorry to hear that you and your nephew have experianced "pains" realityrox.

Are you "telling" us that your nephew is a Muslim going to school in Soddy Daisy and that he has been abused for his religious beliefs? Are you also telling us that you were persecuted by Christians for your Islamic beliefs when you were in school?

This might help us understand your enthusiasm for striking out against the prayer activities in Soddy Daisy.

October 28, 2010 at 11:25 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

That's offensive, Big Ridge. People get persecuted for being anything other than the majority sect (usually Baptist or Church of Christ). They don't have to be muslim or jewish, although they and atheists seem to catch a disproportionate amount. Reality's choice of religion or lack thereof is not the issue here.

October 28, 2010 at 11:28 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Good point mountainlaurel,

Let me be clear though, I am playing God's advocate trying to understand those here that are so enthusiastically attacking what is going on in Soddy Daisy.

October 28, 2010 at 11:29 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

So now you speak on God's behalf? People are against what was going on in SD because it was unconstitutional.

October 28, 2010 at 11:30 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Sure lkeithlu,

Let's make sure we justify our positions with platitudes so we can never reach understanding. The liberal way.

October 28, 2010 at 11:31 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 11:30 a.m

In your opinion. It looks like Soddy has found a compromise, described in this article, but you libs still find it necessary to attack. Fascinating.

October 28, 2010 at 11:33 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

How have I justified my position with platitudes? My position is that SD was violating the constitution. As far as reality's nephew, what the religious differences were is not important; what's important is that there were differences and the nephew was made to suffer. It's pretty hypocritical for you to suggest that reality is muslim because he supports separation, then try and accuse me of refusing to find common ground.

October 28, 2010 at 11:35 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

BTW.

Playing God's advocate = speaking for God?

Funny how the liberal mind works. You have to make inappropriate connections and extreme hyperbole in order to make a liberal thought hold together.

October 28, 2010 at 11:35 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"In attendance was school board member Rhonda Thurman, whose district includes Soddy-Daisy. She has voiced opposition to the ban since the decision earlier this month.

"I'm absolutely opposed to the ban," she said after the event's last prayer. "This country was founded on Judeo-Christian values, and anybody who says any differently is wanting to rewrite American history."

It is clear that not everyone accepts the compromise, as this school board member's words indicate.

October 28, 2010 at 11:37 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 11:35 a.m.

There you go again! I wondered if reality was a Muslim since his sister-in-law goes to Afghanistan.

I am not sure that reality's "pain" has anything to do with religious persecution. It may be that he/she is projecting some other kind of pain into the religion arguement.

Love how libs think they can legislate away the cruelty of children. Good luck with that one.

October 28, 2010 at 11:39 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Oh, did not know the conversation was about Thurman.

October 28, 2010 at 11:42 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: wildman | On: October 28, 2010 at 11:41 a.m.

Don't feel treatened at all. Rather enjoying myself.

October 28, 2010 at 11:43 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Did it occur to you that reality's nephew's mother may be in the military?

October 28, 2010 at 11:44 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 11:44 a.m.

Yes I did. And still think some insight to realities pain might be helpful. I am wondering what is motivating the fever here. I personally have never experienced or witnessed religious persecution. There seems to be a notion that it is rampant in Soddy though.

October 28, 2010 at 11:49 a.m.
realityrox said...

lkeithlu - thanks

He doesn't have any religious beliefs.

Fortunately he has his family of non-theists to support him.

My parents when I was little were Jehovah's Witnesses.. They realized it wasn't taking on me when I was little and fortunately they grew out of it, eventually.

Especially when I wanted to play the exchange gift games of the pagans and celebrate birthdays.

"You can't draw names, your a JW" "You go to a fake church" One time I responded that it didn't matter cause they didn't either.. 6 years of torture followed. I finally learned how to deal.. it involved one knock out.

My nephew has a long way to go. As do many kids.

Kids.. it does get better. You may be different. That's ok. It will get better, just make it through the crap. Bullies are nasty beings that have no conscience of what they are doing. You have a conscience and we need your help to make the world a better place.

We all need you. Even those who don't know it yet.

October 28, 2010 at 11:50 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

That's because your views square with the people around you. Either that, or you make sure no one knows. Bullying is rampant (recent studies suggest up to 50 % of students admit to engaging in it) and not all is religious, but if the school implies that the official position is that of the majority, it implies that the bullies have the school's approval, and that school officials may not intervene. From the victim's perspective, that's huge. And one victim is too many.

October 28, 2010 at 11:54 a.m.
clinthardwood said...

Another one for Eeeek, and for the open borders crowd.

S.D. elementary at center of dispute By Helen Gao UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER July 2, 2007 A San Diego public school has become part of a national debate over religion in schools ever since a substitute teacher publicly condemned an Arabic language program that gives Muslim students time for prayer during school hours. Carver Elementary in Oak Park added Arabic to its curriculum in September when it suddenly absorbed more than 100 students from a defunct charter school that had served mostly Somali Muslims.

After subbing at Carver, the teacher claimed that religious indoctrination was taking place and said that a school aide had led Muslim students in prayer. An investigation by the San Diego Unified School District failed to substantiate the allegations. But critics continue to assail Carver for providing a 15-minute break in the classroom each afternoon to accommodate Muslim students who wish to pray. (Those who don't pray can read or write during that non-instructional time.) Some say the arrangement at Carver constitutes special treatment for a specific religion that is not extended to other faiths. Others believe it crosses the line into endorsement of religion. Supporters of Carver say such an accommodation is legal, if not mandatory, under the law. They note the district and others have been sued for not accommodating religious needs on the same level as non-religious needs, such as a medical appointment. Islam requires its adherents to pray at prescribed times, one of which falls during the school day. While some parents say they care more about their children's education than a debate about religious freedom, the allegations – made at a school board meeting in April – have made Carver the subject of heated discussions on conservative talk radio. District officials have been besieged by letters and phone calls, some laced with invective. “These things are surfacing more and more in many places where large communities of Muslims are coming in and trying to say this is our right,” said Antoine Mefleh, a non-Muslim who is an Arabic language instructor with the Minneapolis public schools. “Our country is transforming demographically, religiously,” said Edgar Hopida, the chapter's public relations director. “Our country has to now accommodate things that are not traditionally accounted for before.”

October 28, 2010 at 11:54 a.m.
realityrox said...

littlehillcoward - She's in Afghanistan because her unit is stationed there.

Are you so backwater that you can't comprehend the thought of a woman of being a soldier?

October 28, 2010 at 11:58 a.m.
XMarine said...

I have lived in Soddy Daisy.Let the bible thumpers have it.It is nothing but a rundown fast food trap.Let them have it & fence it in afterward.Glad to be gone from there!And to answer any reply,I'm sure they are glad to be rid of me!Too much hatred in that burg.

October 28, 2010 at 12:02 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: realityrox | On: October 28, 2010 at 11:50 a.m.

Thank you for the insight.

Was the fact that JW did not stick on you a consequence of your own personal reasoning or were you chased away from an atypical way of life by the bullies? Do you hold any animosity towards your family for giving you a non-conforming start? Or, do you hold a grudge towards the government for expecting the population to go to public schools and not have the economic freedom to go to a school where a student can feel like he/she belongs?

October 28, 2010 at 12:06 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: realityrox | On: October 28, 2010 at 11:58 a.m.

No. I just saw one on TV this morning. Golly!

October 28, 2010 at 12:08 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Public schools should make sure that all kids can feel like they belong. The only way to do that is to keep religion out.

October 28, 2010 at 12:08 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 12:08 p.m. "Public schools should make sure that all kids can feel like they belong. The only way to do that is to keep religion out."

Pretty Naive. The kids will make sure that will never happen. Kids will be kids. You will never create your social paradise in your public school.

Wouldn't it be better to let the public school represent the majority of the local population and let parents have vouchers so they can send their kids to a school of their choice if the public school does not work for them?

October 28, 2010 at 12:13 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Nope, it would not be better. And yes, bullying will still happen, but the school should make every effort to deal with it. (guess what-bullying happens in religious private schools too)

October 28, 2010 at 12:17 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

It seems to me that such an approach would make MOST everyone happier! Realityrocks and his nephew might even be well adjusted and happy in such a world!

October 28, 2010 at 12:19 p.m.
realityrox said...

My personal reasoning rejected religion before I began getting bullied.

October 28, 2010 at 12:21 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 12:17 p.m "Nope, it would not be better. And yes, bullying will still happen, but the school should make every effort to deal with it. (guess what-bullying happens in religious private schools too)"

Are you saying that there is no way of stopping bullying? Can we presume that bullying will still exist if we abolish all religion in school? Do kids have some kind of sick need to bully such that a certain amount of bullying will happen regardless of the vehicle the kids find to exercise it over?

Why abolish religion then. We might see a spike in bullying over small genitalia or obesity!

October 28, 2010 at 12:23 p.m.
XMarine said...

Oh for the good ole days around here.Remember the days when the Free Press used to run black obituaries separately.If some folks have their way it'll be like that again in this area.Go to my church & pray to my god only.

October 28, 2010 at 12:24 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Stay on topic XMarine.

I am trying to make a case for school vouchers and ikeithlu is trying to ignore my great point.

October 28, 2010 at 12:26 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Realityrox,

I would like to hear your opinion on school choice as a way to avoid getting trapped in a sea of antagonists.

October 28, 2010 at 12:28 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your point is unacceptable. Vouchers are unacceptable for many reasons. How about instead you admit that what you would like to see is the abolition of the constitution?

October 28, 2010 at 12:28 p.m.
realityrox said...

littlehillcoward,

School choice is just a fancy way of saying segregation is wrong.

I'm surprised you find it so appealing, considering it would cost several times more to properly seperate all the differences that presently exist. The additional costs of more teachers for the 1 pupil classroom, since not every child is the same.. and would need to be separated from each other.

October 28, 2010 at 12:43 p.m.
realityrox said...

seperate = separate

October 28, 2010 at 12:44 p.m.
realityrox said...

oh crap - meant that to be... "School choice vouchers is just a fancy way of saying segregation is right"

damn sucks getting ready for work

October 28, 2010 at 12:46 p.m.
rolando said...

"Well, clint, it is your job (as is it all of our job) to let the ACLU know..."

You made the call yet, lkeith? Didn't think so...it is always someone else's job, right? Libs are Hilarious.

October 28, 2010 at 12:50 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

OK, I see how you libs are. We can't have a solution that does not put us all in your definition of an acceptable box and turn us into good, compliant robots.

Gotta go now.

Cheers!

October 28, 2010 at 12:59 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

lint - the article already says the ACLU is on it.. duh.

We have our own case locally to observe and interact on.

I've filed my share of complaints rol

ACLU 125 Broad St 18th Fl New York NY 10004

October 28, 2010 at 1:15 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

rolando, you better believe I call the ACLU when I see this in my area.

October 28, 2010 at 1:18 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

OK, I am back…

back to trying to get the lib knuckleheads here straightened out (why do I waste my time?)

Username: realityrox | On: October 28, 2010 at 12:43 p.m. "The additional costs of more teachers for the 1 pupil classroom, since not every child is the same.. and would need to be separated from each other."

Liberal Hyperbole Again! School choice to accommodate special needs of some students means 1 student class rooms? This is a perfect example of how libs cannot put together a coherent thought. Realityroxs fear of segregation is causing him to ignore the obvious advantages of letting, say, Jehovah’s Witnesses put their kids in a Jehovah’s Witness school if the bullies in the public school send him home with a complex about their (families) religious beliefs. It would be much better to let the bullies pick on realityrox so he can haunt us all later with his psychosis. Then we have to listen YEARS AFTER THE DAMAGE IS DONE to realityrox argue that school vouchers mean that we have to accommodate a classroom size of one for EVERYONE!

Lord Help Us! (I thought that would be a good addition considering the topic)

October 28, 2010 at 1:45 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 1:18 p.m. "rolando, you better believe I call the ACLU when I see this in my area"

Are you the student turned in Soddy High?

October 28, 2010 at 1:49 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Are you the student that turned in Soddy High?

October 28, 2010 at 1:51 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

"Hey all you REDNECKS!!!!!! ..."

Racist

October 28, 2010 at 1:53 p.m.
whatsthefuss said...

The entire football team is of the same faith. They go to the same church. This speaks volumes to the inbred hierarchy that exists in schools in the entire area and starts with the FCA in our elementary schools. This group is not put in place by the children but by the adults that desire to indoctrinate your children and has it's blessing by people such as Rhonda Thurman. Is the argument here that everyone in Soddy Daisy is of the same faith and attends the same church all holding the identical beliefs? If this is not true why is the entire team made up of christians? Are the children that are not christians bad football players? Is that why they didn't make the squad? Or is it FCA and school administrators, superintendents teachers and coaches have made this the unspoken law of our public education system and have already decided from a very young age who is worthy to play on "THEIR TEAM." My son's school has had FCA meetings for years and after my comment about FCA, magically a paper comes home yesterday stating that their school is starting FCA meetings in 2 weeks. What a coincidence. Or is it? They call it PUBLIC SCHOOL for a reason. It's supposed to be for everybody. What say you musicman?

October 28, 2010 at 1:56 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

"Do kids have some kind of sick need to bully such that a certain amount of bullying will happen regardless of the vehicle the kids find to exercise it over?"

Absolutely.

Having said that, I don't see why we cannot keep prayer apart from a football game. I'm a Christian and I don't need to hear a Christian prayer over a loudspeaker, usually given by someone who doesn't even pray in the name of Christ in any case, just so I can feel better about watching the game. This whole situation is being blown out of proportion by all parties IMO.

October 28, 2010 at 2:06 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Nope-graduated from HS in '78. But I would call the ACLU in a heartbeat if I witnessed violations of the constitution.

October 28, 2010 at 2:08 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I did not know the ACLU had anything to do with protecting the Constitution. I thought they just used it when they find it appropriate to advance their liberal agenda.

Silly me!

October 28, 2010 at 2:13 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Sorry, misuse it.

October 28, 2010 at 2:14 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"Do kids have some kind of sick need to bully such that a certain amount of bullying will happen regardless of the vehicle the kids find to exercise it over?"

Yep-fat, gay, goth, jew, artistic, bookish, muslim, hindu, palsied, Asberger's, black, asian, hispanic, biracial, stuttering, mentally handicapped, even guys bullying girls and vice-versa. Whatever can be used to make someone different from the crowd and whatever can be used as an excuse to exert power over another.

October 28, 2010 at 2:18 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re Bi RidgePatriot Comment: “Let me be clear though, I am playing God's advocate trying to understand those here that are so enthusiastically attacking what is going on in Soddy Daisy.”

Mighty big challenge, BigRidgePatriot. If you truly are as you say playing God’s advocate, you may want to consider revising your approach - just a suggestion, of course. It seems to me that this liberal vs. conservative chatter is a bit on the judgmental side and in the big picture we all know how God feels about passing judgments.

As for what is going on in Soddy Daisy, I don’t know. From what I’ve read so far, it appears these people have a personal political agenda and essentially would like to combine “church and state,” which is unsettling to say the least. They would do well by reading a little history about the kind of religious intolerance and persecution issues that existed around the time our country was founded, particularly among the various Christian denominations.

October 28, 2010 at 2:19 p.m.
CP7768 said...

BigRidgePatriot, Just for the sake of clarity, do you support the illegal prayer? By supporting it, you support illegal practices in our school system. Do you think it is a good lesson to teach the students of the school district that it is alright to support illegal practices? For that matter, do you believe it is a good idea to teach the students that they should just be quiet if they observe an illegal practice because it has been "tradition" in this area?

October 28, 2010 at 2:28 p.m.
clinthardwood said...

It's interesting how people can take strong positions if their community is fairly small and homogenous. It's easy to take a certain position if the opposition is negligable.

Unfortunately, a lot of America is not that way. Many towns and large cities have all kinds of ethnicities, religions, and ideologies holding court, and the two choices they are faced with are to either cook up compromises that have a LittleSomethingForEveryone policy (the "diversity" approach), or the NoOneWinsSoNobodyLoses policy (the "prohibitive" approach). A small, all-Protestant town can make the "What's the big fuss? Everyone's ok with it" argument because they don't have to deal with such pressures that other places do.

It's like suburban liberal types who love "diversity" and illegal immigration, champion the "rights" of gang members, and are against strict behavior in schools. They can be for all this stuff, because they live in upscale, homogenous communities, send their kids to private schools, and aren't forced to compete in a blue collar environment. What they say is all beautiful in theory, but they don't have to face the real effects of their beliefs.

Just as I never see Birkenstock libs living in the ghetto, I rarely see Christian school prayer advocates in multireligious cities.

While I sympathize with those who want their children to have a strong spiritual upbringing, our Constitution keeps key areas of the public sphere to be free from coercive actions regarding religion. The family is the center of religious upbringing.

October 28, 2010 at 2:40 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

AT least you are apparantly proud of your racism, roagmat. Most racists try to pretend they aren't when they get called on it. I'll pray for you.

October 28, 2010 at 3:37 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 2:18 p.m. "Yep-fat, gay, goth, jew, artistic, bookish, muslim, hindu, palsied, Asberger's, black, asian, hispanic, biracial, stuttering, mentally handicapped, even guys bullying girls and vice-versa. Whatever can be used to make someone different from the crowd and whatever can be used as an excuse to exert power over another"

Good point lkeithlu, You do realize that a student that some would describe as a "goth" committed suicide just a couple of weeks ago. No joke. Along with prayer, maybe we should ban all forms of individual expression.

October 28, 2010 at 3:47 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: wildman | On: October 28, 2010 at 2:52 p.m. "BigRidgePatriot needs to do a little traveling, reading, listening and put down the Kool Aid!"

I dare venture that I have seen a great deal more of the world than you have. Could be wrong, but probably am right.

October 28, 2010 at 3:52 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

That's a really creepy and heartless thing to say, BigRidge.

October 28, 2010 at 3:57 p.m.
CP7768 said...

BigRidgePatriot, I'd really like to hear your opinions on the questions I posted above: Just for the sake of clarity, do you support the illegal prayer? Do you think it is a good lesson to teach the students of the school district that it is alright to support illegal practices? For that matter, do you believe it is a good idea to teach the students that they should just be quiet if they observe an illegal practice because it has been "tradition" in this area?

October 28, 2010 at 4:02 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Username: lkeithlu | On: October 28, 2010 at 3:57 p.m. Yes, it is. That sounded an awful lot like a liberal, didn't it? Very creepy.

October 28, 2010 at 4:08 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I don't see any liberals saying heartless, cruel things like that. You sound like that school board member in Arkansas:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fire-Clint-McCance/170421922968484

October 28, 2010 at 4:19 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

CP,

What is illegal prayer? As I understand it, and witnessed it, prayer was led by students at Soddy. I am not too keen on prayer being led by a teacher or school administrator but I am not convinced it is illegal.

The ACLU makes it unaffordable once they get a locality in their crosshairs, but that should not be confused with legality.

October 28, 2010 at 4:43 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Based on the original intent of the Constitution, New York should have the right to ban mosques around ground zero or in the entire state if they want. The original intent only restricted the Federal Government.

Things would be so much simpler if the Supreme Court would stop reinterpreting the laws.

October 28, 2010 at 4:47 p.m.
CP7768 said...

BigRidgePatriot, Read the Supreme Court decision in Santa Fe v. Doe and come back and tell me that the original prayer was illegal. The Supreme Court has clearly said what Soddy is doing is unconstitutional.

October 28, 2010 at 4:53 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

What was the original prayer that you are talking about.

October 28, 2010 at 4:58 p.m.
CP7768 said...

The prayer conducted over the loudspeaker prior to football games.

October 28, 2010 at 5:01 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Wasn't it done by a student?

October 28, 2010 at 5:22 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Yes. Understanding those facts, go read Santa Fe v. Doe. The facts of that case and the prayer conducted by students over a loudspeaker in Soddy are nearly identical. The Supreme Court found those actions to be unconstitutional and illegal. So once again, I'll ask the questions: Do you support the illegal prayer? Do you think it is a good lesson to teach the students of the school district that it is alright to support illegal practices? For that matter, do you believe it is a good idea to teach the students that they should just be quiet if they observe an illegal practice because it has been "tradition" in this area?

October 28, 2010 at 5:36 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Give me a link CP. It will probably take me some time to get back to you.

October 28, 2010 at 5:42 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

OK CP, sorry about the long delay, had some things that needed to be taken care of.

I have no problem with the findings in Santa Fe vs. Doe except that it was found in a Federal court that really should not be involved in these things (in my opinion). I have to admit that I have no problem with a locality continuing on with traditions that violate this finding as long as they can get away with it and no one is complaining. Once someone spoils the party and puts the violation in the spot-light of some national watch dog group like the one from Wisconsin I would expect the local group to find a way to conform with the law. It looks like Soddy parents and students are going to try to separate the prayer from the school administration, which is just fine and should be legally satisfactory.

Can we get back to the fun stuff now?

October 28, 2010 at 6:45 p.m.
bagola22 said...

Regarding pink floyds comment..If you've seen the video of the prayer before the game, you'll notice not everyone goes out onto the football field to pray. I really don't feel they are excluding anyone..If you don't want to pray, then don't. If you are the Christian praying, you should be praying and not looking around to see who isn't. While you do see people at Church peeking around sometimes to see who isn't praying, well mind your own business and pray. As Christians we are called to share the Word of God. We are also told to love our neighbor. Someone who claims to be a Christian shouldnt exclude anyone who is different, they may be the only ones to ever share the way to eternity with another person and by showing intolerance to those who are different won't help. I do kind of see the point of seperation of Church and State and having the coaches(govt employes) leading prayer..but what if one of the parents led prayer every week? This is a terrible situation, but I encourage you to pray for this person who complained, for they don't know, maybe they will come to know the Lord some day. Unfortunately, we are living in the end times and this is just another sign of the Lords coming..All we can do is pray for people. Keep praying and sharing the Love of Christ no matter where you are..

October 28, 2010 at 7:25 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Bagola, Just to be clear, you support a clearly illegal action taking place in our schools? Do you think it is a good idea to teach students that because Christ commands you to share the Word of God, you should do so even if that act is illegal and there are easy alternatives (e.g., not praying over a loudspeaker) that are legal that allow students to pray? What about those students who are Muslim, Jewish, Agnostics, etc. who attend these football games? As a captive audience (which they are according to the Supreme Court) at a school-sponsored event, should they be subjected to proselytization?

October 28, 2010 at 7:37 p.m.
Skeptic101 said...

Bagola, Why is this a terrible situation? You have students who care enough about this country and those in the minority to exercise their rights to protest a wrong. Good grief, if only we had more like them! And why do you assume they don't "know the Lord"? They certainly are following Jesus' teachings. They might actually know more about the Gospels than you do. Please take care of the board in your own eye before you assume.

October 28, 2010 at 7:48 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

The “freedom of religion” provision in the U.S. is interesting history. I believe the basis for it began around 1662 in what is now known as Queens, New York. At the time, the region was a Dutch Colony and it was against the law to practice and belong to any faith except the Dutch Reformed Church.

When the Colony’s official barred Quakers from the Colony a group of local citizens (non-Quakers) petitioned the official on behalf of the Quakers, but they were thrown in jail. Their petition was based on the belief that “We desire…not to be judged, least we be judged. Neither to condemn, lest we be condemned, but rather let every man stand and fall to his master.'"

Needless to say, there were lots of other arrests and incidents before things changed in this Dutch Colony. The change came about after a man by the name of John Bowne was arrested, jailed and exiled to Holland because he had allowed Quakers to meet in his house. Bowne also submitted a petition but his went to the Dutch West India Company. They exonerated him.

October 29, 2010 at 12:28 a.m.
anniebelle said...

"did not know the ACLU had anything to do with protecting the Constitution. I thought they just used it when they find it appropriate to advance their liberal agenda.

Silly me! Username: BigRidgePatriot

brp, why do you insist on showing your ignorance every time you post? Of course the ACLU defends anyone whose civil rights are being infringed upon by bullies like you who don't trouble themselves with facts, just fantasy (Goebbel style) tactics spewed over our airwaves daily. Do you know nothing of the constitution or the laws of this republic, apparently not.

October 29, 2010 at 5:05 a.m.
ouzzy88 said...

Cause and effect to people with narrow minds, that refuse to see past the differences and change will only mean more problems. Its no different than a "way of life" people fight chickens down there, its their way of life, some like to smoke pot, but they are to mellow to stand, some drink beers after church, its OK cause they control it (or do they). But give even those calling themselves righteous a inch and they will take the mile, because everyone that's "right" just is not.

October 30, 2010 at 6:11 a.m.
ouzzy88 said...

BTW YOUR ALL MEAN PEOPLE!

October 30, 2010 at 6:14 a.m.
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