published Thursday, April 14th, 2011

The Persecuted

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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blackwater48 said...

AUDACITY

The Republican whine makers are already stomping their feet and throwing temper tantrums over the notion that fat cats should participate in 'Shared Sacrifice.' Boo-hoo.

Fact is, the rich declared war on working families years ago. Their Republican lackeys in Congress think it's okay to cut corporate taxes and high income taxes and shift the burden to poor people, seniors, children, working families, and the middle class.

It's time we fought back.

I'm not in favor of punishing rich people. Just having them sacrifice like the rest of us.

I'm tired of watching fat cats get fatter and then complain about not being fat enough.

April 14, 2011 at 12:26 a.m.
Stewwie said...

Lame attempt at sarcasm, Clay. Nobody particularly likes a tax increase; all income groups balk at an increase.

For every extra dollar in taxes sent to Mr. Obama is a dollar less that could be invested in the local economy via a private endeavor by the "rich" folks. There's not much sense in sacrificing the local economy to prop up the federal budget, especially since we're relatively fresh out of the recession.

Mr. Obama needs to get "tax increases" out of his mind and get out the proverbial scissors to keep cutting the budget. Oh wait, the Republicans are already trying to do that.

April 14, 2011 at 12:32 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Excellent article, "Of the 1%, By the 1%, and For the 1%," by Joseph E. Stiglitz in May’s Vanity Fair on this income inequality issue:

“It’s no use pretending that what has obviously happened has not in fact happened. The upper 1 percent of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation’s income every year. In terms of wealth rather than income, the top 1 percent control 40 percent. Their lot in life has improved considerably. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent and 33 percent.

One response might be to celebrate the ingenuity and drive that brought good fortune to these people, and to contend that a rising tide lifts all boats. That response would be misguided. While the top 1 percent have seen their incomes rise 18 percent over the past decade, those in the middle have actually seen their incomes fall. For men with only high-school degrees, the decline has been precipitous—12 percent in the last quarter-century alone. All the growth in recent decades—and more—has gone to those at the top.

In terms of income equality, America lags behind any country in the old, ossified Europe that President George W. Bush used to deride. Among our closest counterparts are Russia with its oligarchs and Iran. While many of the old centers of inequality in Latin America, such as Brazil, have been striving in recent years, rather successfully, to improve the plight of the poor and reduce gaps in income, America has allowed inequality to grow.

Economists long ago tried to justify the vast inequalities that seemed so troubling in the mid-19th century—inequalities that are but a pale shadow of what we are seeing in America today. The justification they came up with was called “marginal-productivity theory.” In a nutshell, this theory associated higher incomes with higher productivity and a greater contribution to society. It is a theory that has always been cherished by the rich. Evidence for its validity, however, remains thin. The corporate executives who helped bring on the recession of the past three years—whose contribution to our society, and to their own companies, has been massively negative—went on to receive large bonuses.

In some cases, companies were so embarrassed about calling such rewards “performance bonuses” that they felt compelled to change the name to “retention bonuses” (even if the only thing being retained was bad performance). Those who have contributed great positive innovations to our society, from the pioneers of genetic understanding to the pioneers of the Information Age, have received a pittance compared with those responsible for the financial innovations that brought our global economy to the brink of ruin.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

April 14, 2011 at 6:28 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

At least he's not rioting, nor faking sick days, nor hinting he'd like Obama dead, as the tax-paid bureaucrats and child-loving teachers of Wisconsin did when newly elected governor Walker asked them to pay more toward their own pensions out of their above-average salaries. Eh?

Many of the rich got rich selling people something people wanted. But we have to pay for the tax-paid crowd whether or not we like what they offer, so they have less incentive than businessmen to offer what we want; and since thay're paid by taxes instead of by prices or donations, they can offer 'free' what businesses have to charge for, which helps them 'sell' what they offer even if we'd rather buy something else. So cut the tax-paid sector and enlarge the price sector.

Coveting is sin; favoring the rich is sin--and favoring the poor is sin. (Exodus 20:17, Leviticus 19:15, Exodus 23:3), Not that the effects of welfare or of inner city schools show real, effective favor. Jesus is rather libertarian; follow Him.

April 14, 2011 at 6:29 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

AndrewLohr said: "Many of the rich got rich selling people something people wanted. But we have to pay for the tax-paid crowd whether or not we like what they offer, so they have less incentive than businessmen to offer what we want. . . Coveting is sin; favoring the rich is sin--and favoring the poor is sin. (Exodus 20:17, Leviticus 19:15, Exodus 23:3)

Hmmmm . . . And lets not forgot what Jesus had to say about a rich man, AndrewLohr:

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.“

April 14, 2011 at 7:11 a.m.
woody said...

I think Billie Holiday said it best, "Them that's got shall get, them that's not shall lose, so the Bible says and it still is news,,your momma may have..papa may have, but God bless the child that's got his own..that's got his own...."

And the moral of the story is..well..them that's got ain't about to share with nobody..surprise..surprise....Woody

April 14, 2011 at 7:14 a.m.
fairmon said...

company effective tax rate SHEARS

April 14, 2011 at 7:23 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Andrew... are you disputing mountainlaurel's numbers, or are you suggesting Jesus would be happy with those numbers? I would think you could classify the robber barons as libertarian, as well.

April 14, 2011 at 7:25 a.m.
EaTn said...

I don't blame the greedy wealthy for wanting to keep all they have, but I do blame all the rest who are gullible enough to believe their purchased politicians and media propaganda lies.

April 14, 2011 at 7:44 a.m.
ibshame said...

These tax cuts were sold to the public on the premise that the top 1% who benefitted most from these tax cuts would be the ones to create the jobs needed to keep this economy growing. It didn't happen. It never ceases to amaze me how Republicans can try to convince the rest of the 95% of the country who don't benefit from these tax cuts why it is in their best interests to continue with the cuts for the wealthy. At some point it should become obvious to those who pay more in taxes than big corporations like GE and some of these CEO's, they have been duped, bamboozled and led astray.

April 14, 2011 at 7:48 a.m.
chet123 said...

Woody... the moral to that is called selfish and Greedy!!.....the greatest generation had something to say about people like that after young men had left their blood and guts on foreign land while sacrificing it all for this country...protecting the American interest that many of those young men never profit from or lived to see...this country have fogotten how we got to be a Great Nation

April 14, 2011 at 7:59 a.m.
chet123 said...

Great Job Clay!!

April 14, 2011 at 8 a.m.
woody said...

Chet123, you said a mouthful..Amen..Woody

April 14, 2011 at 8:01 a.m.
quietreader said...

An email I just received (No I didn't research this):

Tax his land, Tax his bed, Tax the table, At which he's fed. Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes Are the rule.
Tax his work, Tax his pay, He works for peanuts anyway!
Tax his cow, Tax his goat, Tax his pants, Tax his coat.
Tax his ties, Tax his shirt, Tax his work, Tax his dirt.
Tax his tobacco, Tax his drink, Tax him if he Tries to think. Tax his cigars, Tax his beers,
If he cries Tax his tears. Tax his car, Tax his gas, Find other ways To tax his ass.
Tax all he has
Then let him know That you won't be done Till he has no dough.
When he screams and hollers; Then tax him some more, Tax him till
He's good and sore.
Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave, Tax the sod in Which he's laid... Put these words Upon his tomb,
'Taxes drove me to my doom...' When he's gone, Do not relax, Its time to apply The inheritance tax. Accounts Receivable Tax Building Permit Tax CDL license Tax Cigarette Tax Corporate Income Tax Dog License Tax Excise Taxes Federal Income Tax Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA) Fishing License Tax Food License Tax Fuel Permit Tax Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon) Gross Receipts Tax Hunting License Tax Inheritance Tax Inventory Tax IRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax) Liquor Tax Luxury Taxes Marriage License Tax Medicare Tax Personal Property Tax Property Tax Real Estate Tax Service Charge Tax Social Security Tax Road Usage Tax Recreational Vehicle Tax Sales Tax School Tax State Income Tax State Unemployment Tax (SUTA) Telephone Federal Excise Tax Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax Telephone Recurring and Nonrecurring Charges Tax Telephone State and Local Tax Telephone Usage Charge Tax Utility Taxes Vehicle License Registration Tax Vehicle Sales Tax Watercraft Registration Tax Well Permit Tax Workers Compensation Tax

STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY? Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle class in the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.

  What in the heck happened?   Can you  spell 'politicians?'
April 14, 2011 at 8:06 a.m.
fairmon said...

Company Effective tax rate GE .00

Honeywell 26.5%

Penney's 38.2%

Caterpillar 29.6%

Kohl's 37.6%

Sears 29.3% (46.2% in '09)

P&G 26.3%

TJ Max 37.8%

Dean Foods 40%

Taxes are in addition to many other fees and legislatively imposed cost. Check S&P reports, SEC filings to validate. What politicians don't talk about are those that do pay taxes and the increased cost to consumers as a result. Most companies would like to see a simple system that had no deductions, reductions, incentives, subsidies etc. and a predictable flat tax of 20% on profits. The average profit margin is about 4-6%.

Most members of congress don't have a clue why companies move their operations and headquarters to other countries. Those that do don't talk about it because they can't handle the reaction of voters that would think they are favoring "big business". No need to wonder why we see so many imports from countries that have an average wage rate comparable to that of the U.S., Canada is one good example.

April 14, 2011 at 8:15 a.m.
jsgood35 said...

Approximately 3 Million people (top 1%) pay 40% of all taxes. The rest is paid by approximately 130 Million wage earners. I think the top 1% share plenty of burden. The Robin Hood movement is not the answer. Why should any demographic and class have to give ridiculous amounts of their earned money because of the irresponsibility and inefficiency of our gov't? We are all overtaxed, at least the 40% who actually participate in paying their taxes.

April 14, 2011 at 8:24 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

another cheap piece of crap propaganda from a democrat party bootlicker...nothing more.

the same crap you'd see in eastern europe, china, cuba...wherever..before communists took over....class warfare.....

there is no more wasteful and greedy an entity than the federal government...none...no corp- poration...none...."public servants" and faceless, entrenched burocrats becoming wealthy and powerful from tax dollars....entitlments...outrageous benefits....

the areas around washington d.c. are among the most wealthy in the country......ever been? they're dripping with money.

and how much is enough, you libs? what percentage? obama's piece of trash address yesterday, which was completely partisan and was the same old leftist attack against anyone who makes a profit,.....it had no solutions.

the whole notion that the federal government..or government employees..or burocrats are more honest and responsible than those in the private sector is bull****

the government collects plenty...they need to cut back and spend more wisely....

the mass temper tantrum in wisconsin proves my point.......

you libs are all about control..not people paying their "fair share"...it's always about control.. how much we get to keep out of our hard earned money, what we can eat, what we can't eat, what we can buy, what we can't buy, what we can drive, what we can't drive..and so on and so on.

what a joke the democrat party is.....what a joke liberalism is.........

a woman has an absolute right to kill, to kill her unborn baby because of inconvenience, yet she can't be trusted to put a lunch together for the kid she decided to not abort to take to school. ....because in that case she can't be trusted.... "we can't just leave it up to the parents"......- michelle obama......

liberalism is about control..absolute control...the whole attack on "the rich" is smokescreen

how many people have become rich from "public service"..burocrats, politicians, etc.....huh?

April 14, 2011 at 8:35 a.m.
fairmon said...

You can take 100% of the taxable income of the top 1% and the impact of the budget deficit and increasing debt would be like spitting in the ocean. According to the IRS the top 5% now pay around 48% of all income taxes paid. What would the appropriate rate for the top 1% be?

Would you agree to abolishing all individual deductions, reductions, incentives, subsidies etc. adding two higher brackets to the tax tables and adjust all rates proportionally to equal what is projected to be spent?

April 14, 2011 at 8:37 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

Also we forget something else Jesus said: Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar and render unto God that which is God's

April 14, 2011 at 8:39 a.m.
chet123 said...

Quietreader...get your fact right...100 years ago we were a little better than a 3rd world nation....the world wars(dont forget those sacrifices)...gave this country a lot economic thrust.Its apparent that you trying to use Scare tatic(tax tax tax)....you dont have any substance....with all due respect my good friend...everything you said is weak ...kind of childish!! if you and your rich buddy are hell bent on "me , my, myself".....then become independent.....i respect the AMISH PEOPLE...because they talk the talk and walk the walk.....they didnt want to deal with taxes so they opt out of the system.....they are brave and grounded in their beleif....you my friend are like some republican(not all)...shoot off at the mouth.. full of BS...little credibility in regard to your claim....not willing to back up your beleif...as the AMISH PEOPLE who I Greatly respect...i would love to see you driving horse with buggy..LOL LOL..going down dirt road...making your own shoes....plowing the fields with mule LOL LOL using candles at nite....it would be so funny...oh yeah well water...outdoor toilet.....lol lol....FOLKS! get the picture.....Quietreader is just another one of FOX News people who has been brain wash...LOL LOL only in American

April 14, 2011 at 8:45 a.m.

Once gain, our esteemed Pulitzer Prize winning author uses a white middle-aged male as his target of redicule.

C'mon Claydo. At least make some kind of attempt at fresh and creative.

April 14, 2011 at 8:48 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

yeah, dumbledore....and what is ceasars/obama's/federal government's? ....how much...i'd like to know....?

April 14, 2011 at 8:50 a.m.

“Has U.S. Income Inequality Really Increased?” by Alan Reynolds (Policy Analysis, No. 586 January 8, 2007) http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa586.pdf

“The many changes in U.S. tax rules since1980 have made a dramatic difference in what is reported as income on individual tax returns. One result is that it is misleading, if not meaningless, to compare income reported on tax returns in the 1970s and 1980s with data reported in recent years.

“The estimated ratio of top percentile U.S. incomes to total incomes has been distorted by tax-induced changes to both the numerator and the denominator. The amount of business income reported on individual income tax returns by the top 1 percent rose from 7.8 in 1981 to 28.4 percent in 2004, following sharp reductions in individual income tax rates enacted in 1981 and 1986. Corporate executives switched from accepting stock options taxed as capital gains to nonqualified stock options reported and taxed as salaries, and those newly popular stock options were distributed to millions of non-executives.

“Estimates of the elasticity of taxable income among high-income taxpayers range from 0.56 to 1.0, implying that large increases in reported income should be observed when tax rates are cut. And that is what occurred in countries that cut top tax rates in half, such as the United States, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and India. Estimates of the elasticity of reported income from capital gains cluster near 0.9, implying large increases in reported income from capital gains should have been observed (as they were) after the U.S. capital gains tax rate was cut in the early 1980s, in 1997, and in 2003.

“This paper estimates that simply including transfer payments in the denominator of the Piketty-Saez data reduces the top percentile’s income share in 2004 from 16.1 percent to 13.1 percent. Just one form of income shifting—business income from corporate to individual returns—added another three percentage points to the share reported by the top 1 percent. The adjusted estimates show no increase in the top 1 percent’s income share between 1988 and 2003. The top 1 percent’s income share rose in 2004 based on the Piketty-Saez interpolated estimate, but that appears to be partly explained by the near doubling of dividend income reported after the sharp dividend tax cut of 2003."

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa586.pdf

April 14, 2011 at 8:51 a.m.
fairmon said...

People fall into three categories:

Those that make things happen 5%

Those that watch things happen 15%

Those that wonder what happened 80%

Similar break down to those that pay taxes and those that benefit from taxes.

Blame the 1%, blame the 5%, blame those with wealth of any degree, blame the corporations, blame Wall St. but don't blame a bunch of vote pandering economic idiots in congress for our debt dilemma.

April 14, 2011 at 8:52 a.m.

(continued) “Has U.S. Income Inequality Really Increased?” by Alan Reynolds (Policy Analysis, No. 586 January 8, 2007) http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa586.pdf

“... This paper just begins to focus attention on the large magnitude of shifting between taxable savings in the 1970s and tax-favored savings, such as in 401(k)s, today. Many new and expanded savings plans resulted in much of the dividends, interest income, and capital gains of middle-income taxpayers disappearing from tax returns, leaving only the investment income of affluent investors visible in the data. This paper makes no effort to estimate the magnitude of this disappearance, yet it is clearly very large and growing rapidly.

“In sum, studies of changes in income distribution based on tax return data provide distorted and misleading comparisons of U.S. income shares because of dramatic changes in tax laws in recent decades. Aside from changes in taxpayer reporting due to changes in the tax laws, there is no clear evidence of a significant and sustained increase in the inequality of U.S. incomes, wages, consumption, or wealth since the late 1980s.”

April 14, 2011 at 8:56 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

rick1 posted the below statment and link in the Trump 'toon thread. The article shows pretty good evidence that Obama wants to destroy the middle class in the name of socialism. I just wanted to make sure anyone who hasn't read it gets a chance. It's eye opening, for sure. Thanks, rick1

"This is a good article on Obama during his college days at Occidental College."

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/meeting_young_obama.html

April 14, 2011 at 9:04 a.m.
chet123 said...

SEAMONKEY...how many names you using today....stop playing games...i can tell you a protect the rich and greedy person...dont run and hide...man up!...and i love the way you address democrats as liberal.....that supose to be another scare tactic..liberal,liberal,liberal...the boogie man mama..the boogie man!LOL LOL...folk you cant make this stuff up..LOL LOL democrats have always been diverse(conservative,moderate,progressive)...not like you... GOOSE STEPPING to order of FOX NEWS(republican headquarter)your good thing is over...you have been exposed..lol lol ..LOL LOL..President Abraham Lincoln quoted "You can fool some of the people all the time,all the people some of the time,but you can not fool all the people all the time"...only in America!!!

April 14, 2011 at 9:05 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Dude_Abides said: "Andrew... are you disputing mountainlaurel's numbers, or are you suggesting Jesus would be happy with those numbers? I would think you could classify the robber barons as libertarian, as well."

I’ve come to the conclusion that AndrewLohr is just confused about the basics of Christianity, Dude_Abides. Lets face it, Jesus made his bottom line rather clear when he said: “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

I could be wrong, but to my knowledge this is not something that Libertarians are known to politically advocate. Of course, the Libertarians are not alone here. The Republicans and Democrats also do not advocate following Jesus’ instructions when it comes their money and their personal possessions.

Politically speaking, I guess the only political party that really advocates giving up anything for anybody would be the Democrats who do advocate somewhat for economic justice and social policies that are designed to provide assistance to the poor and people in need. Of course, in doing this they are usually accused of being "socialists" and/or mocked by both the Libertarians and the Republicans for their "bleeding hearts" so to speak.

April 14, 2011 at 9:07 a.m.
fairmon said...

I can't understand a tax system that penalizes me for paying cash for a house. I opt for a smaller but livable house I can save and pay cash for. However, I pay more taxes so others can opt to live in a million dollar mansion, pay interest only on a loan and get a significant tax deduction. Barney Franks reaction to a proposal that banks be required to require those making a home loan pay 5% down is a clue. His reaction: We can't do that, only those that could afford a house would buy one. "Brilliant Barny" a major beneficiary of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac political contributions.

I can't afford solar panels but I pay more taxes so those that can or elect to install them whether they can afford them or not pay less taxes. The same applies to hybrid cars. Those that can't afford or elect not to buy one subsidize those that buy them.

What is the justification of tax laws like that? Why is congress insistent on manipulating people that way?

April 14, 2011 at 9:10 a.m.
chet123 said...

MUSICMAN....i love the way you can't stand on substance...you run to your republican consevative propaganda Magazine(very very bias...FOX WANT to be..)FOLKS...this is how republican operates...."The American thinker"...please do researsh on these haters.... and this who MUSICMAN getting his sourse from...MUSICMAN thanks for helping me make my point!!! FOLKS this stuff is too good to be true...How can anyone be so predicted...that because they have "talking point" same old BS...people like musicman and all his kind are left scambling..LOL LOL...the boogie man mama...the boogie man mama..the boogie man..LOL LOL ONLY in AMERICA!!!

April 14, 2011 at 9:23 a.m.
chet123 said...

musicman...since you want to go back in time....research your hero Ron Reagan...date rape chrages...in his young years..LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 9:28 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

chet, are you off your meds, or are you another of Clay's alter egos?

April 14, 2011 at 9:33 a.m.
chet123 said...

Harp3339...i cant undrstand why city pay higher taxes than county since city is a sub set of county...i can understnd why people in county shoot up their in favor of take home car for city law enforcements when they dont contribute 1 penney in taxes to pay for the cars....so i just dont start splitting hairs.... or it will run you crazy...why you can paid for a car 60,000 dollar car in 5years...but a 70,000 house in 30...payment about the same....well you know what i mean....trick systemsie...bonds ect....

April 14, 2011 at 9:36 a.m.
chet123 said...

Stick to the issue Musicman....if you have the intelligent to do so...lets not get personal....or i will lower the boom on you...LET STICK TO ISSUE!!

April 14, 2011 at 9:38 a.m.
chet123 said...

musicman lets be civil...sorry to punch holes in your weak arguments...but we still can be friend....if you have a opinion...bring it on!!!Stop crying...maybe you never had anyone to challenge you at the barber shop...or in your social circle....but dont get mad...just think!!! ps please dont use those weak,bias conservative writers(haters) as your sources

April 14, 2011 at 9:40 a.m.
chet123 said...

"what wrong with the world"....you got to be a rich man to talk like that!!!!...there have been a great income gap between middle class and the rich...starting with that picture on your profile(ronald Reagan)....distribution???....how about revenue!!! NOW it was your hero idea of AMERICAN FREEDOM to send jobs over sees(Boy what a sucker he made of us)....Reagon was a great snake oil salesman...he sold the American people on deregulation(see how that turn out on wall street..bank do whatever they want to do...and tax payer clean up their mess...while they get bonuese)He advocated Globalization open Market American Jobs send over seas,creating "cheat Labor" for the rich to max profits...destroying the unions which ,which he was once the president of with ACTOR GUILD,,,boy what a flip flopper....and the American people didnt call him on it....all hell would have broke lose had it been OBAMA....yep...we were duped by Ronald Reagan...reagan had minium education,graduated from eurika college...a college by the size of tennessee temple......boy!!! Only in America!!!

April 14, 2011 at 10:05 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

chet, if you think Obama doesn't want a socialist takeover of our economy, I'll give you another place to look for evidence. How about a radio interview Obama gave in 2006. Just go to youtube.com and search "Obama redistribution of wealth, 2006" and you'll find the interview. There's plenty of info in that interview, directly out of the horse's mouth, that relates him to being a socialist.

I know, I know, there are lots of socialists in this country. To each his own, as it were, but I'm not buying that philosophy, and I think there are a lot of people, supporters and nonsupporters alike who ignore this side of the man. He's hiding who he really is from the American public, and the article you mocked (probably without even reading it) was written by one of his classmates who now holds a Ph.D. Take it or leave it, chet, but the info is out there. Don't come on here and talk down to me becuase you either agree with Obama and his views or else because you don't believe it could be true, whichever the case may be.

April 14, 2011 at 10:05 a.m.
tderng said...

Mountainlaurel said:Hmmmm . . . And lets not forgot what Jesus had to say about a rich man, AndrewLohr:

“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.“ Do you even know what the eye of the needle is? It is the smaller door beside the gates of cities. After dark when the gates were closed and locked this was the only way to enter the city.It was therefore much harder to get a camel through but it was possible.The camels usually had to be unloaded and led through and their loads carried through by their owners. Most people who use this reference seem to want to infer that it is impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. The truth is that it is only harder because to enter the Kingdom of God he must do good works with his wealth. Most wealthy people in actuality do give lots of money to charitable organizations and foundations.The difference is that the donations are freely given not confiscated by the government.When the government TAKES the rich mans money it makes it harder for him to get into heaven because he has less to give to charities. Being heavily taxed doesn't count toward doing good works and giving to charity. Also the quotation of "give unto Caesar that which is Caesars was usually a tax of about 10 to 15 percent,not the 40 percent or more that the wealthy pay now.

April 14, 2011 at 10:17 a.m.
potcat said...

~~ Bookie said ...Claydo uses a white middle-aged MALE as his target of ridicule... Well HELLO! Who the hell do you think these Rich Cats are? Mr.Bookie Turner incarnate no doubt. ~~ IF THE SHOE FITS``~~

April 14, 2011 at 10:21 a.m.
limric said...

Our tax structure isn’t just a statement of fiscal health or responsibility, it is also one of morality. And conservatives, true to form, are showing theirs. Republicans are singing the praise of Paul Ryan’s plan, which benefits primarily the top 1% of Americans, and, as always, promotes corporate socialism (did I just say that) by subsidizing health insurance companies through Medicare block grants, hands an enormous tax cut to millionaires and billionaires – and will sink our nation. It will wreck the government (their plan?) and hit the poor and middle class, all for this obsession, of lowering tax rates further for the richest people. We need a tax structure and budget that serves the rest of America.
How about ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan – revising eliminating disastrous free trade policies - ending taxpayer subsidies to transnational corporations – closing tax loopholes – ending the bush tax cuts – andor enacting “The Fairness in Taxation Act” - which asks the very rich to pay their fair share by enacting new tax brackets for income starting at $1 million and ending with a $1 billion bracket.
The new brackets would be:

• $1-10 million: 45%

• $10-20 million: 46%

• $20-100 million: 47%

• $100 million to $1 billion: 48%

• $1 billion and over: 49%

It also taxes capital gains and dividend income as ordinary income for those taxpayers with income over $1 million.

From the ever-so-smug company of the rich and powerful - or fools, will come the usual: Cutting the federal deficit will create jobs, Cutting taxes on the rich creates jobs, Cutting corporate income taxes creates jobs, Cuts in wages and benefits create jobs, Regulations kill jobs. Ideologues who insist that further cuts in taxes for the rich is the way to bring back jobs. All bogus, with NO credible data to support it. NONE.

Anyone not in the upper 1 percent that does not support the “The Fairness in Taxation Act” is, to put it bluntly, a moron. For you Tea Party members, a moran!

Unless we rebuke the Republican’s big lies, they’ll soon become conventional wisdom and George Orwells, “ if all others accepted the lie which the party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became the truth.” Will indeed come to pass. The choice for the American people couldn’t be any clearer with these two budgets – the Republican road to ruin – or a Progressive road to prosperity. Or better yet, sanity.

April 14, 2011 at 10:23 a.m.
chet123 said...

Musicman....LISTEN VERY CLOSEly....the redistribution...started with Ronald Reagon....with that crazy trickle down theory...that didnt work......helping the rich get richer...while hoping the crumbs off his table will fall on the middle class and working class....it didnt work....middle class is only trying to stop the hemorrhaging...your party inflicted on the middle class people....by the way...notice how gas prices explose when we have a republican Congress....they need to investigate on that instead of whether OBAMA was born on earth LOL LOL...so if you use the word redistribution...know what you talking about....dont use the old SWITCHAROO ON the Democrats

April 14, 2011 at 10:25 a.m.

Mountainlaurel quoted the Vanity Fair article “Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%” by Joseph E. Stiglitz (May 2011)

In a section of the article not quoted by Mountainlaurel, Stiglitz quotes Alexis de Tocqueville:

“… Tocqueville once described what he saw as a chief part of the peculiar genius of American society—something he called “self-interest properly understood.” The last two words were the key. Everyone possesses self-interest in a narrow sense: I want what’s good for me right now! Self-interest “properly understood” is different. It means appreciating that paying attention to everyone else’s self-interest—in other words, the common welfare—is in fact a precondition for one’s own ultimate well-being. Tocqueville was not suggesting that there was anything noble or idealistic about this outlook—in fact, he was suggesting the opposite. It was a mark of American pragmatism. Those canny Americans understood a basic fact: looking out for the other guy isn’t just good for the soul—it’s good for business.”


Tocqueville is actually arguing the opposite of the point made by Stiglitz. What Tocqueville was impressed by was the strength of America’s intermediary institutions – the non-governmental associations which its citizens form in order to address needs in local communities. Unlike the “charity” conducted by the federal (and state) government, participation is un-coerced. And guess what? The giver feels better about giving and gives more. Tocqueville said that Americans were the epitome of a “practical” people, and that as such, they didn’t sit around waiting for (or run around lobbying) politicians to meet needs in the community. They didn’t aggrandize themselves by promoting a pretentious form of indirect charity through an all-encompassing political ideology to be enacted by politicians. They saw charity (love) as the responsibility of free citizens freely assembling and pooling resources to meet needs. By contrast, where have ideologies cloaked in marketing slogans like “The Great Society” or “The War on Poverty” left us?

April 14, 2011 at 10:34 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

so chet is a socialist (and probably Clay Bennet himself since he has yet to deny that accusation). That's all you had to say from the start, chet. If you had done that, I wouldn't have wasted any time typing a response to you the first time. Good day to you.

April 14, 2011 at 10:36 a.m.

tderng, Excellent post. (10:17 a.m.)

April 14, 2011 at 10:37 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

It is a spending problem STUPID!!! You will never in your lifetime see claytheidiot recognize that fact unless he is trying to tie it to someone other than the democratICK party.

clay bennett shows once again how limited his thinking is. Does anyone care to count up how many times claydork has attacked the rich in the last month.

He is like a bad jazz drummer beating on a really small and out of tune progressive drum set.

http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/chipbok

April 14, 2011 at 10:38 a.m.
chet123 said...

Thank you LIMRIC....you just renewed my faith in humility....cant beleive what i am hearing from some of the contributors....the selfishness...and self-centerness....i work for this its all mine!!!any nut know it is not human possible even if a man work 24hrs a day no sleep...365 days a year...for a hundred years...you still wont be a billionare....others help you to get there....usaully with cheap labor, greasing Politician pockets,to have labor laws to favor them,government contracts(middle class tax money pay for but rich profit fromie halliburton dick chaney) But i'm convinced, venue such as Rush Limbuarg, Bill O'Rellity, Glen Beck and FOX NEWS...have poison their ability to think...they only inflict hate...sad sad sad!!

April 14, 2011 at 10:38 a.m.
SavartiTN said...

It is so refreshing that we have a plethora of ultra billionaires posting on here and defending their tax breaks!

As for the rest of us, Mountainlaurel, that was a good post earlier. So many people today (including many of our posters) don't understand that the wealthy have 1) absolutely no concern about those who aren't and 2) most of them aren't wealthy because they "had something to sell" the rest of us. They stay wealthy by investments and tax avoidance.

6 years ago, Citibank published an equity strategy report that stated:

"The World is dividing into two blocs - the Plutonomy and the rest. The U.S., UK, and Canada are the key Plutonomies - economies powered by the wealthy. Continental Europe (ex-Italy) and Japan are in the egalitarian bloc."

"We project that the plutonomies (the U.S., UK, and Canada) will likely see even more income inequality, disproportionately feeding off a further rise in the profit share in their economies, capitalist-friendly governments, more technology-driven productivity, and globalization."

"In a plutonomy there is no such animal as “the U.S. consumer” or “the UK consumer”, or indeed the “Russian consumer”. There are rich consumers, few in number, but disproportionate in the gigantic slice of income and consumption they take."

"There are rich consumers, and there are the rest. The rich are getting richer, we have contended, and they dominate consumption."

If you are interested in reading the full report, find it here:

http://jdeanicite.typepad.com/files/6674234-citigroup-oct-16-2005-plutonomy-report-part-1.pdf

Looks like Clay is right on target.

April 14, 2011 at 10:49 a.m.
chet123 said...

BIGRIDGEPATRIOT.....i would be careful calling people names....you are probably one those people hiding behind 20 names....when you get holes punched in your arguments...you run and hide like a scared rabbit..and take on another name.....its so ironic you use the name PATRIOT.....your kind waves the American Flags the whole time George Bush was President ,dispite Bush Major lies and flaws....you waved the flags....you and FOX NEWS....WAVED THE Flags...the moment OBAMA became president your flag waving stopped....FOX NEWS..withdraw the American Flag(after waving it on the network for 8years)they just coincidently stopped waving when a Democrats win elections republican politicain removed the flag off the lapel of their suit coatlol lol lol...so you wave the flags only when your man is in office....BIGRIDGEPATRIOT...is this what you call being patriot......FOLKS this is a prime example(got nerve to get bad when you call them one sided).LOL LOL LOL....only in the American you find people so mess up in the head(and trust to talk about mid-east)...the good thing is people all over the world can read this and see how vile BIGRIDGEPATRIOT thinking are.....

April 14, 2011 at 10:57 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Just as a blind squirrel will find a nut sometime, every now and then Bennett gets one right.

April 14, 2011 at 11 a.m.
SavartiTN said...

And if that first report wasn't enough, Citibank issued another one a few months later in 2006. http://nuclear.bfn.org/citigroup-mar-5-2006-plutonomy-report.pdf

Those in charge...who represent only the wealthy that are mentioned in this report...want to get rid of entitlement programs for one reason...they can't capitalize off of them. They urge "privatization" of Medicare which translates to "this is how we can get our hands on that pile of money."

There are those of you on this board who have worked your entire lives and put your money into Social Security and retirement funds thinking that you are covered when you retire. This is not entitlement. No, entitlement is those in charge thinking of ways to screw you out of your hard earned money so that they can use it to boost their stock porfolios.

As for the wars, have you really ever thought hard about why they continue? It is the modern welfare solution. Those in charge see lots of young people who can't get work (cause it's all been outsourced) and think "hmmm, they might apply for welfare" and so they have a war. This gets the lower income young people occupied and makes lots of money for those who have bank in the war machine.

I think that unless we (the 99%) don't stop fighting among each other (and who do you think wants that to continue) and get our act together, us 99% will become a 0%. When you have nothing, you are nothing.

April 14, 2011 at 11:08 a.m.
chet123 said...

musicman....keep QUOTING from americanthinker....that your gospel of hate.....please dont think i want to talk you down(thin skinned....you like to ditch out...cant take it can you???whineeeee)but i call it like i see it...you give your opinion from hate group....crazy people who will die protecting the RICH AND GREEDY......you the one mention AMERICANTHINKER....common knowledge that they are twisted thinking ideologue....so dont get mad at me.....that group is in the same company of glen beck, rush limbaugh.....they will always be around bacause they are bank-rolled by greedy rich folks....let me make this clear...not all rich are selfish...and self-centered...but your sources are MUSICMAN...did you say AMERICANTHINKER lol lol what a joke!

April 14, 2011 at 11:21 a.m.

What works in the world:

Employment

"[Late 19th century] New York charity leader Josephine Lowell wrote that "the problem before those who would be charitable, is not how to deal with a given number of the poor; it is how to help those who are poor, without adding to their numbers and constantly increasing the evils they seek to cure." If people were paid for not working, the number of nonworkers would increase, and children would grow up without seeing work as a natural and essential part of life. Individuals had to accept responsibility: Governmental programs operating without the discipline of the marketplace were inherently flawed, because their payout comes "from what is regarded as a practically inexhaustible source, and people who once receive it are likely to regard it as a right, as a permanent pension, implying no obligation on their part."

"Today, programs that stress employment, sometimes in creative ways, need new emphasis. For example, more of the able-bodied might receive not housing but the opportunity to work for a home through "sweat equity" arrangements in which labor constitutes most of the down payment. Some who start in vigorous programs of this sort drop out with complaints that too much sweat is required. They find champions who would prefer to see a Department of Housing and Animal Development passing out free cages, but one person who stayed in a program said at the end, "We are poor, but we have something that is ours. When you use your own blood, sweat, and tears, it's part of your soul. You stand and say, 'I did it.'"

from Transforming Welfare by Marvin Olasky

April 14, 2011 at 11:31 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Musicman, Chet is a self-proclaimed Rich Black man from another thread. So if he is Clay he is trying really hard to hide it. He is the one that continually throws words at people without one shred of evidence to back anything up. Looking at the way he types, I am not sure he can even read the American Thinker. Too many big words for him.

On a different note, I have noticed a couple of names missing from the postings lately. Anyone heard from Scotty or Alprova? Just concerned about Al since he had been sick.

April 14, 2011 at 11:35 a.m.
chet123 said...

LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM.....what does that name means....FOLKS you got to love the ways these Republican uses patriot names...LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM..when they are just the opposite...sorry your self-esteem is so low....you talk about the rich...like your life depend on them...maybe you need to cut the umbilical cord....seem like to me you are the one in bondage...if thats your attitute...also notice how you use words like socialism, liberalism, communism,that supose to scare people LOL LOL LOL LOL...how about fascism,oligarchy,power in hand of few, but i wont stoop to your level..i perfer talking issue

April 14, 2011 at 11:40 a.m.
chet123 said...

nuseforjustice....there go another....see what i mean...there name is just the opposite of their beleif...LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 11:41 a.m.
chet123 said...

you can see straight thru these people so perdictable.....they cant think on their feet....lol lol.. got to go crying to their sources...helppppp.what do i say next????helpppp...HELPPPP..help what do i say next....glen beck where are you...rush where are you..FOX NEWS..help me!!...AMERICANTHINKER...HELPPPPPP LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 11:47 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Chet, a much wiser man than you and I once said, "it is better to be thought a fool than to open you mouth and remove all doubt". The same can be said for the keyboard. I think you have removed all doubt.

Some people ain't got sense God gave a goose.

April 14, 2011 at 11:50 a.m.
chet123 said...

nurse4jusctice...you are a phony...this clown a coward who use other name...like DAO, SEAMONKEY...and about 20 more name....LOL LOL...these republican are mental cases....the whole world see you !!!!LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 11:51 a.m.
chet123 said...

notice how this bozo will disappear when the heat come....cant defend his position...so he run like a scared rabbit...lol lol lol...then re-appear with another nameLOL LOL LOL....the democrat would not have you!!!...you are damaged good....you are in the right party..republican party...LOlLOL

April 14, 2011 at 11:55 a.m.
chet123 said...

ONLY IN AMERICA...SEE HOW WE LOST 600,000 PEOPLE in a civil war...and 150years later claim...uhhhhhh i dont know why we fought.........lair lair your pant on fire!!!!

April 14, 2011 at 11:58 a.m.
chet123 said...

too much....republican have ran off somewhere sweating hoping i go away....they gone back to fuel up propangada...from their bias sources...LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 12:01 p.m.
dao1980 said...

hey chet, I'm watching you right now... ooooohhh scaaarrryyy.

I am everybody and everybody is me, you better watch out, because I am the voices in your head as well...

You better not make me mad, or I'll tell you to do something really bad...

April 14, 2011 at 12:12 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

chet, I don't know what drugs you are on or what drugs your dr. tried to put you on that you aren't taking, but you might want to consider a change. You call people crazy and write incoherent ramblings as if you aren't crazy yourself. And I'm laughing at you through all of it. You're comical at least, I'll give you that. To answer your assumption, I only have one profile on this site. I know who nurseforjustice is, but I have never met him in person, nor am I him.

And if you would take your head out of your rectum long enough to read the post I linked you will know that the article on that horrible site you hate so much is actually a true story written by a socialist about another socialist and their disagreements on which path would best lead to our nation becoming a socialist nation. Obama thought a revolution would work, whereas the author thought a political strategy would work. Looks like he may have convinced Obama of the political strategy over revolution, seeing as how the man is now the prez. So you see (probalby not), it's not a republican rant like you are so afraid of seeing. You might like it if you will only take the time to read it. It might even give you more info about your socialist party you didn't already know. Although, you wouldn't be able to repeat it in any coherent manner in any case.

April 14, 2011 at 12:14 p.m.
chet123 said...

see FOLK....this is what republican have LOL LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 12:15 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

That's your retort? You really are proving me correct about you with every successive post. Thanks! Still laughing at you.

April 14, 2011 at 12:20 p.m.
BobMKE said...

We can not keep kicking the can (debt) down the road. We have to think of our children and the debt we are leaving them. Read the USA Today article regarding the debt and who is paying. We are now at the point where there are more people in the cart then are pulling the cart. Tell me how that won't destroy the future of this Country.

April 14, 2011 at 12:20 p.m.

Hi! I'm new to the posts but I've been reading them for a while. Some of the posts I read on here are mind-boggling. Who cares if the rich get taxed more? Unless you yourself are rich you should be jumping for joy that there's a chance they will be taxed as much as the rest of us peons...

As far as the deficit - hate to keep beating the same drum, but who started this? Obama was left with a lame horse by Dubya. Not saying he's made all the right choices but really... He started TWO wars while in office and gave Wall Street free reign to butt-rape us. AND THEY ARE STILL DOING IT. They raise gas and food prices whenever they feel like because they are afraid to LOSE MONEY. Rich ppl do not care about Americans, the national debt, the Tea Party or any of the crap you are worried about; they care about getting rich.

April 14, 2011 at 12:28 p.m.
limric said...

WOW - A few here need an education in critical thinking….and history.

Everyone posting here has heard that redistributing wealth on public programs is socialism, because giving money to poor or nonwhite people is bad, by that logic - socialism is bad. Therefore programs that benefit poor or nonwhite people = socialism.

Conversely:

Redistributing wealth from the poor and middle class to the rich is capitalism, because giving tax breaks and subsidies to the rich is good, by that logic - capitalism is good. Therefore anything that cuts benefits to the lower classes while enriching rich white people = Capitalism.

ERGO: Socialism is therefore the domain of panhandlers and welfare cheats.

Capitalism is therefore the domain of bailouts and tax cheats.

Both are equally valid and invalid hypotheses. It is the Gordian knot of the propagandist, of which men like Karl Rove and Sean Hannity are Eagle Scouts wearing their knot emblems proudly.
Those defending the rich’s class warfare don’t understand what the knot is, believe that inequality is a basic tenet of the Constitution and would pass a test of the founders intents. This is an absolute fairy tale. We can do better. We’d better!

Clay's cartoon shows that he understands exactly what the knot looks like.

April 14, 2011 at 12:28 p.m.
chet123 said...

musicman.....i like to talk issue...and i will...but the problem i have is your party history....you said the same thing about bill clinton.....if you going to deal with characters...look at your peoples....they promote facist agenda....look at ronald reagan he was not even a christian...dick chaney....an old man..trading with libya while this country was protesting Gaddafi also Chaney profit from young American men blood shedding...you see i remember my parent being label as communist by people like you......because they marched with martin luther king who was also called communist(nothing farther from the true he was an america christain)so you my man complain about a man who have a speck in his eye and you have a log in yours

April 14, 2011 at 12:29 p.m.
chet123 said...

Thanks LIMRIC....need a true intellect.. and not someome getting their info from AMERICANTHINKER like it unbias or gospelof truth) from right wing ideologue groups like AMERICANTHINKER

April 14, 2011 at 12:36 p.m.
chet123 said...

more people in the cart than pulling the cart....i dont get it...who brillant thinking sent our jobs over seas....BOBMIKE...please elaborate farther....i dont get it....who darn fault is that???

April 14, 2011 at 12:42 p.m.
RickOShea said...

Andrew is your typical Christian Libertarian hypocrite. He mocks school teachers while defending the oppressors. He decries welfare and the "tax paid crowd" while he himself is on food stamps and is the first to get in line for unemployment benefits when he gets laid off. "Do as I say, not as I do." Did Jesus say that?

April 14, 2011 at 12:45 p.m.
jsgood35 said...

What do you define as rich? What is the tipping point from middle class to upper class to rich? My wife still thinks 100K is rich. blows me away. Two combined incomes of 100K, she thinks is rich. gotta love her, but it is not rich, and by no means is it enough money. 250K, not rich...comfortable, but not rich. What do you consider rich and at what level of income do you think is appropriate to increase tax rates?

A person who makes 1Million dollars can be just as poor as someone who makes 50K. If their 1Million is tied up in a large home, cars, school, insurances, property, they might be just getting by just as someone who makes 50K with all the same type bills and worries. Just because you make more money, does not mean you still budget like you only make 50K. You should, but that is not the way it is. And so, the point being, you should not witch hunt taxes on people who make more money. They have more money, so they can spend more money, thus buying more products, or creating more jobs. If you tell them what to do with their money, they are just going to stash it under their bed, just as most people would once you reach that tipping point of an unreasonable tax rate. Their should just be a single tax rate for everyone. It sure would make accounting much easier for Washington.

April 14, 2011 at 12:50 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

In the last 25 years, more specifically in the campaign of 1996,Steve Forbes proposed the only tax plan that not only lowers taxes for the wealthy, but also offers a substantial decrease for the middle class, . Under the Forbes plan, the United States would adopt a flat 16% tax rate for everyone. Rich, middle income, and poor. The plan eliminated virtually all deductions, but did offer deductions and credits for families with children and actually expanded some credits for education. Under the Forbes plan, a family of five like mine would pay zero income taxes on the first $52,000 dollars of income. The smaller the size of the family, the smaller the credit. Individuals making less than $24,000 could find themselves completely tax free, if they chose to go to college or trade school to get a better paying job. Again, this rewarded someone the chance to better him or herself. He almost upset Bob Dole, who everyone insisted had earned the right to be the nominee. One thing about Forbes was that he refused to get in bed with the far right wing of the party. Unfortunately, the only time the Republicans cut taxes, they focus primarily on the wealthy. I assure you, if Bill Gates only brings in $42 billion this year as opposed to $51 million, there is not going to be a hiring boom at Microsoft. And while we will hear that cutting taxes 8% on someone making $250 thousand will create jobs, do the math. A business owner claiming income of $250 thousand would have a pre-deduction tax burden of 60,281. If we changed that rate to 28%, then the tax burden would now be $47,781. (Source irs.gov tax table)Roughly a tax cut of $12,500. Bare in mind also, this is INCOME. How many jobs are created by $12,500. Come on people. I agree, we do not need to soak the rich or spread the wealth. But stop trying to peddle the belief that as soon as the rich get a tax cut, they invest that money in jobs.
Incidentally, living in Ringgold I keep up with Georgia politics very loyally. Everyone wants to beat up on government employees when the budget is tight. In our state, Governor Deal is eliminating hundreds of jobs. He has told state employees there will be no raises for at least two years. However, he expanded his staff by eight more people than Governor Perdue had in place. Not only that, his staff salaries are on average 20% higher than Perdue's staff. His explanation for this, is that this is justified to pay so we can attract, hire, and retain the best and brightest people to work in the Governor's Office. What about the rest of the state? I guess we just want mediocre teachers, mediocre state troopers, mediocre crime lab technicians, and all the many jobs that we don't care about until we need them. When we elect true independents that are not in bed with any special interest groups, maybe one day we can fix it. Until then, both sides, all special interest groups, need only look in the mirror to find the blame.

April 14, 2011 at 12:55 p.m.
chet123 said...

BOBMIKE...read this...American was borrowing money from communist china to pay for a war.....RED FLAGS should have went up then...noooooooooooooooooooooooo waving flags..because we had a republican President George Bush...Dan Rather found out the hard way...who dare critizied...that was not being "American"...our surplus clinton left was being spent up...our media did not say one word...they were dead silent...SEE NO EVIL,HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL...Noone said anything...DICK CHANEY WAS QUESTIONED ABOUT THEIR SPENDING his response was debt is good for the country...so if the people of America think we can vanish trillions of dollars in a couple of years...they better think twice...we would have to go back to the stone age.....this will be a slow process...and it will also take additional revenue(eliminating tax break for rich folk)

April 14, 2011 at 12:56 p.m.

jsgood35 said... "What do you define as rich? What is the tipping point from middle class to upper class to rich? My wife still thinks 100K is rich. blows me away."

Wow. If I made $100k I would most definitely feel richer than I am now!!

"Their should just be a single tax rate for everyone. It sure would make accounting much easier for Washington."

I completely agree with this. End the Bush-era tax cuts and be fair to everyone! I know everyone's situation is different but I highly doubt that anyone making $250k or more is struggling to pay bills unless they have made very bad choices. But then again, I'm not rich; just a squirrel trying not to get run over chasing that nut...

April 14, 2011 at 12:59 p.m.
chet123 said...

tmbrwlfofga...great observation.....they all talk....republican love liars....i saw PAUL RYAN....another snake oil saleman....oh yeah...publican have started that MAN-CRUSH stuff again

April 14, 2011 at 1 p.m.
potcat said...

~~Chet, Man you have to get a GRIP! I can't take another LOL. Its juvinile. Theres nothing funny about how you go after someone. Slow Down!~~ Why is it that some people on this site are quick to say drugs are the problem with the wacky POSTERS you spar with on here.Your giving Drugs a bad Rep.

April 14, 2011 at 1:03 p.m.
chet123 said...

musicman...dont get personal,,,,i dont dislike you...your politic stinks....you are too much of a misguided peon for republican party......as i have said before.. this country have a terrible past....600,000 die for rich southern folks

April 14, 2011 at 1:09 p.m.
chet123 said...

potcat....you sounds like that coward who changes his name 20 times a day....can tell from you writing you want to get personal...because you have nothing to say...if you can talk on a issue..do so...but i think i know how you going to respond...LOL LOL LOL...FOLKS same old same old lol lol

April 14, 2011 at 1:12 p.m.
jsgood35 said...

When you make more money, if you have a family, you don't keep the same old crap you had when you had a combined income of 50K when you started out as a family. You invest in better home, safer cars, better insurance, more retirement savings, better education for children...when it is all said and done, you do not have more money than you did before, you just have better stuff that you worked hard to get. Any of us could end up in the top 1%, but most of us are too scared to go for it, to take the risk (when we have nothing), or just lack the creativity to have a solid idea for a product people want. you just can't take stuff from people just because they have it. I will get on board with anyone who agrees with a level tax rate for all, but not a crazy (Robin Hood) scheme on the "rich".

April 14, 2011 at 1:18 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

jsgood, you make good sense. I like the fair level tax rate myself. I am of the opinion that we need a major overhaul, not adjustments,tax hikes or cuts. I could get behind someone with enough creativity to tackle that. I know there are some good ideas out there, just wish the people with those ideas were electable.

Wolfman, Steve Forbes is pretty smart huh?

April 14, 2011 at 1:38 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

jsgood, great post. and it's true that if you took every dime the top 1% made it wouldn't make a dent.

obama's address yesterday was a disgrace and par for the course for that slimey liar...what a fraud. nothing but a partisan pile of garbage.

you libs do not respect how hard people work. you just look at people as a source of income for the federal government and to further your agenda.

obama is as cold a statist as there is...

every solution to every problem requires the citizenry give up more freedom or keep less of what they earn.

obama is a disgrace and a thug...simple as that.

even ceasar would be shocked at the tax rates we have and the ones you libs dream of.

i don't care if this has nothing to do with this thread....tough......think about this....

in the liberal mind a woman has the right to kill her unborn baby, but does not have the right to make a lunch at home for her child to take to school.....

welcome to the mind of barack and michelle ' obama

April 14, 2011 at 1:39 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Your right JSgood, Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian really have worked hard. They are some real risk takers. Oh, how I wish I had the creativity of Lindsay Lohan. I tell you what then I will know what hard work really is huh......

April 14, 2011 at 1:47 p.m.
jsgood35 said...

Please do not lump anyone in Hollywood with the "rich", there really is not enough of them to make a difference in anything. those few slobs you mentioned were not risk takers or go getters, but their parents were. Hollywood does not matter to anyone. I hope that is clear.

April 14, 2011 at 1:54 p.m.
jsgood35 said...

They would not tote guts to a hungry dog.

April 14, 2011 at 1:58 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

I like the idea of the fair tax a lot better than the flat tax. Find more info on that idea here Why do we have to be taxed on what we earn and what on what we spend? With the fair tax system, everyone pulls their weight based on the goods and services they use/buy, not how much money you earn. Rich people would end up paying more taxes because they will spend more, but we would all be taxed at the same percentage and those people who work for wages "under the table" for whatever reason would have to start pulling their full weight as well.

April 14, 2011 at 1:58 p.m.
limric said...

HOLY CRAP jsgood35. Nice try…very nice indeed.
I’ll bet you even fooled a few posting here. You certainly fooled yourself. You curved the subject matter to fit your own made up parameters, asked a hypothetical question based on it, to yourself, formed a circular argument around it, and somehow found a conclusion - which is a covert attempt to disguise an overt defense of tax breaks for the top bracket incomes and corporations.

Any of us could end up in the top 1%, but most of us are too scared to go for it, to take the risk (when we have nothing), or just lack the creativity to have a solid idea for a product people want. you just can't take stuff from people just because they have it. I will get on board with anyone who agrees with a level tax rate for all, but not a crazy (Robin Hood) scheme on the "rich".
Are you in the top brackets? Do you not see the reverse (Robin Hood) scheme being perpetrated against YOU? Do you not understand the futility of your quote I italicized above, or how the people you are defending are laughing at you? C’MON !!

I’ll say it one last time. Anyone not in the upper 1 percent that does not support the “The Fairness in Taxation Act” is, to put it bluntly, a moron.

Sheesh……….

April 14, 2011 at 1:59 p.m.
jsgood35 said...

Actually no, I am a civil engineer intern.

April 14, 2011 at 2:09 p.m.
limric said...

Libertarians4Freedom,

Please don’t forget to look down and away when the owner enters. And please thank him over and over and over (on your knees) for letting him you work for him. Dude, you’d be grateful to them if they let you be a slave. Where is your personal pride, your pride in YOUR SKILLS, *your pride as a free man?*** Your post is evidence of the success of the elites propaganda. You are being transformed into a serf. And you’re grateful….pathetic.

Oh by the way, y ’know all those McMansions, Yachts, biz jets and $45,000 watches (that aren’t made here anyway)? Well if your favored federal sales tax (The Fair Tax) is implemented… at over 25%, the gods of wealth you worship aren’t going to be buying as much of those. Add into that the +or – 9.75% state sales tax (Tennessee IS NOT going to get rid if their own tax) and you’ll be crying like a little girl for unions and the good old days.

Libertarianism is merely anarchy for the rich. Nothing more.

Anyone not in the upper 1 percent that does not support the “The Fairness in Taxation Act” is, to put it bluntly, a moron.

I am done here today.

April 14, 2011 at 3 p.m.
tderng said...

chet123,you need to check your math 260,000 died for "rich southern folk".(double speak for rich white people) 93,000 in combat,the rest died of disease,with 137,000 wounded on the southern side.That having been said I am actually glad that the south lost the civil war because if we had won we would most likely have become a socialist country at that time.Unfortunately that is what many liberals and progressives are trying to do to this country now.It has never worked in any country that it has ever been tried in.The leaders(ie. the Rich in a socialist society)always seem to get all the perks and the masses eventually wake up to their plight and revolt.There are always the haves and the have nots in every society,the difference is that in a free democracy it is possible to change your lot in life if you are willing to work hard and be innovative,get an education and join in with the workers instead of standing there with your hand out demanding you be given something that someone else has worked hard for.

April 14, 2011 at 3:07 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

JSgood, you say that Hollywood doesn't matter to anyone? Do some research and you will learn that the Hollywood and neighboring towns are home to thousands of millionaires. I do not consider Lindsay Lohan's parents as risk takers or hard workers. I do not consider Britney Spears parents as hard workers or risk takers. The self-made millionaire club only comprises roughly 33% of the rich. If you know the wealthy, the vast majority (while not in Hollywood), are made up of inheritances. While their parents may or may not have worked hard, I still feel they should have to contribute to the defense of this nation. Unfortunately, you are striking me as a "Country Club Republican". You are not rich, but you hold a high esteem for the wealthy and aspire to be like them not in financial status, but in prestige and respect. Also, when you consider tax burdens, remember that you and I pay a higher percentage of payroll taxes than the rich. You and I pay just over 8% in payroll taxes, while the wealthy only pay 8% on the first $250,000 they earn. Would you support them paying 8% on their entire income if we had a flat tax? Ask someone that is wealthy, and they will tell you "well we don't use it so why should we have to pay more?" Hey, I don't use predator drones but I still help buy them. Loving this class warfare.....Tmbrwlfofga

April 14, 2011 at 3:19 p.m.
tderng said...

tmbrwlfofga,the people you pointed out as having "worked hard for their money" may not have "earned" this money but their parents or other ancestors did.That is what a person usually works so hard for,so their children don't have to!Unfortunately they have to give up a huge amount of that hard earned money when they die because some people don't believe it should go to the people that all the hard work was done for."Oh my he's dead,lets take over half of his money so his kids don't get it!!Lets give it to someone else!""Why,lets give it to someone who doesn't want to go to school or work like he did!""That'll teach that hard working s.o.b. better than to make make more money than than this other person!"

April 14, 2011 at 3:22 p.m.
BobMKE said...

A lot of posters here keep talking about past Presidents and what they did or did not do. The question I want answered here is the debt can in right in front of you and you are the President. What would you do? NO tax the rich is not the answer and several posters above fully explained why. Yes here in Wisconsin I believe we are on the right track. You informed posters know about our Rep. Paul Ryan and his proposal and he is NOT trying to kick the can down the road. Also as I am writing this our Gov. Scott Walker is testifying in Washington and it would benefit all of you to read his opening statement. He is NOT kicking the can down any of the roads here in Wisconsin. These Wisconsin leaders are doing the right thing and thinking of our future generations. Also read the USA article and things are going to get worse as the baby boomers age and they will live a looooooooooooog time all at the younger citizens expense. What can't last forever ------WON'T.

April 14, 2011 at 3:44 p.m.
chet123 said...

Folks we have a joker in here...seamonkey ,nurse4justice...same person.......he also have about 18 more name...dont waste your time with this bozo

April 14, 2011 at 3:48 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Tderng, first off no one, not even someone who inherits a fortune pays a tax rate of 50%. The marginal rate in this nation is 33%, not 50%, regardless of how you receive the income. So to say that rich people pay 50% is either ignorant or lying. Of course if you withdraw a 401-k plan too early, there are penalties, primarily because of the tax savings you receive to motivate you to use the 401-k as a means of saving for retirement. Lets not work fast and loose with the facts here. Again, read my post. Only a third of the wealthy are self-made. I do not believe that Paris Hilton should not have to pay towards the defense of this nation. Any income I receive, whether it is from selling my home for a large profit (even though I worked hard to buy it) or even a gift (even though no one reports these) I have to pay income taxes on. Would you propose just eliminating all taxes unless it comes from an employer? Well in that case, I will just go out and start my own business and we can all just buy and sell and trade and never have to pay taxes. Because in your world, only rich people work hard for their money. The guy down the street that works 12-hour days at Shaw doesn't work hard. It has always amazed me how those that moan about the tax code are often its biggest benefactors. There is that good old Country Club Republican doublespeak. Keep on fighting the fight for people that you will never become. Begrudgingly, Tmbrwlfofga

April 14, 2011 at 3:51 p.m.
chet123 said...

BOBMIKE....i know you want to forget the past(george bush)but you cant come off as a zealot when your man was in charge you and your republican punit was sleeping at the wheel...you wont to be let off the hook...while shooting your mouth off....Obama is cleaning up your man mess...just as clinton had to clean up george bush sr. mess....so for a republican to stand on the soap box and say lets forget the past...i want to ask you are you a complete "MORON"....now all of a sudden you are an expert...buddy you and your cronies forfeit your responsibility...along with your credibility....so you going put the weight of responsibility on OBAMA...for your Man imcompotence...wow notice you changed geared to wisconsin...this state is having a revolution....what rock you been hiding under...

April 14, 2011 at 4:03 p.m.

BobMKE said... "A lot of posters here keep talking about past Presidents and what they did or did not do. The question I want answered here is the debt can in right in front of you and you are the President. What would you do?"

The first thing I would have done is financial reform for Wall Street so they can pay back the money they owe America (which few ppl seem to remember) and fixed it so they cannot take advantage of us again. Obama proposed a similar plan but was shut down by the corporate puppet Republicans. Next I would have moved money to energy reform so that we are not dependent on foreign oil and Wall Street can stop jacking up prices whenever they get an itch.

The financial woes of this country (whether you like it or not) are the fault of the richest. The lobbyists are the puppet masters and we are all just dangling, including Obama who has no backbone to stand up for the people who voted for him.

April 14, 2011 at 4:03 p.m.
chet123 said...

SO BOBMIKE...go back to your sources...FOXAGANDA NEWS..and get your next set of talking point.....its sad when a man cant stand on his own...just a walking clone....

April 14, 2011 at 4:14 p.m.
tderng said...

tmbrwlfofga, the current estate tax rate is,according to an article in the USA Today on 7/23/2010,currently at 55% when it returned to the pre-Bush rates this year,2011.This means that after 1 million dollars the govt. takes 55% of the money that a person worked for and saved for their children.Now,this is on top of the 33% or so that he already paid when he earned it.As to the worker at shaw or other businesses,of course they work hard!Never said that they didn't!If they wanted to get paid better they need to go back to school and learn to do something that paid better.I myself worked in that very industry and realized that I wanted to earn more,so I sent myself back to school and earned a degree that allowed me to earn a much better paycheck.When I worked in that industry I always wondered why the people who worked on the machines made better money than I did but didn't work very hard.When I brought this up in the breakroom one day the reply was,and I quote "I don't get paid for what I do,I get paid for what I know." That was when I decided to go back to school and get paid for "what I know."When this question was asked of me by workers in my new career I told them the same thing.

April 14, 2011 at 4:25 p.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

Another keeper.

My hard drive is filling up fast with Clay Bennett cartoons. When I receive a right wing sourced email from a friend these days complaining about how welfare mothers, Mexicans, or democrats are destroying "their" country, I just cue up the appropriate Bennett cartoon and hit reply.

His single panel is often worth a thousand typed words, and this one is among the best.

April 14, 2011 at 4:32 p.m.
chet123 said...

tderng...if you went back to school to get a better job...then that indicate you are a small potato..you are not on the level of the elite that wealth exceeds 90% country wealth...sounds like you were in north georgia carpet mills.....you were almost part of slave labor...rich guys there depress wages while they have record breaking income...taking advantage of latino workers....you probably now is a BIG FISH in tiny pond...please keep things in prospective.....you are one of us.....the real FAT CAT...dont produce anything...ie hedgefunds usury, see what the bible say about usury....a grave sin....LOL lol but i respect you for being honest and open...

April 14, 2011 at 4:54 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

johnnyringo....propaganda doesn't solve any problems. whether on the left, or the right. clay bennett has about as much insight as you'll find on the back of generic cereal box.

chet...don't insult nurseforjustice by saying i'm she.....her posts are better than mine.

a true tax overhaul will not happen because the country club republicans who control the republican party..and the monstorous dumb asses who control the democrat party like it the way it is...it gives them power...

a flat tax...or steve forbe's plan makes the most sense...and is fair...and that's why it won't happen.

April 14, 2011 at 4:57 p.m.
tderng said...

tmbrwlfofga, my apologies,these rates will go fully into effect after 2012 with a top tax rate of 55%,currently it is at 35% and will automatically return to the 2001 rate in 2013.The moral of the story is that if you have created a lot of wealth for your family you better "gift" the max amount to every family member every year or the govt. will end up with most of what you were able to save.

April 14, 2011 at 5 p.m.
tderng said...

chet123,I am now retired but was never a BIG FISH in any size pond.I was at best a medium fish in a huge pond. The moral of my story was that I earned my money and didn't expect any one or any thing to "give" me something that someone else worked for.I went out and got it myself.I have never envied the rich for what they have that I don't.People can call me what they want but I believe that our govt. should protect our country, provide for our infrastructure,protect our borders,take care of the truly needy,then get #%$@ out of our lives!

April 14, 2011 at 5:30 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tdemg said: "Most people who use this reference seem to want to infer that it is impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. The truth is that it is only harder because to enter the Kingdom of God he must do good works with his wealth. Most wealthy people in actuality do give lots of money to charitable organizations and foundations. . . When the government TAKES the rich mans money it makes it harder for him to get into heaven because he has less to give to charities.”

Thanks for the additional input,Tdemg. But I believe most people fully understand what Jesus was talking about when He said: “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.“

As for your complaints about a rich man being unable to give to the poor because he has been forced by his government to pay his fair share of taxes, I suppose the rich man will just have to explain this scenrio to God when he gets to the “pearly gates of heaven” so to speak. Indeed, I’m sure God will make allowances for the poor rich man who wanted to give more to charity but didn’t do so because he was forced to pay taxes on his wealth - of course, the outcome of the rich man's plea may depend upon how much wealth he had left over after he paid his taxes.

April 14, 2011 at 6:44 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

JSGood, lets talk about two points you have made. First, earlier when talking about the inheritance tax, you said, "tmbrwlfofga,the people you pointed out as having "worked hard for their money" may not have "earned" this money but their parents or other ancestors did.That is what a person usually works so hard for,so their children don't have to" My friend, that is what I mean about Republican hypocrisy. Do you really believe that people, even rich people, should raise their children so that they should never have to work hard in their life? Do you believe that a parent has a responsibility to ensure their child has a steady income as an adult? I want my girls to have a better life than me. But I want them to earn every penny of it. I owe student loans out the yin yang to ensure this, but I want them to avoid the mistakes I made in my youth that have made me had to work harder. I did not get my MBA until my mid-thirties because I wanted to raise a little hell in my twenties. LOL. One thing I have always admired about Donald Trump, is how he made all of his kids go to college, get good grades, work hard, and make their own money. Sure, they have lived the privileged life, but he has worked tirelessly to ensure they have a hard work ethic. Moreover, when he dies his fixed assets will be divided equally, (if he is unmarried) but all of his money (billions) will go to charity. You have to admire at least that fact about him. Again, ANY income you and I receive, we pay taxes on no matter where it comes from.

Secondly, I will give you the benefit of the doubt on misquoting the tax rate earlier, but what you also must not realize is that that 55% rate is the exception rather than the rule. The rate starts at 37% and can be up to 55%. There are numerous deductions that can take effect, and a surviving spouse pays ZERO inheritance tax. Most importantly though, the ceiling right now is 3.5 million. Even after the roll back in 2012, you still only have to pay the tax on what is over one million dollars. Again, you and I pay taxes on every dime of income. Lemonade stands, yard sales, lottery winnings, anything we do yields income. The progress tax was embraced by the great Theodore Roosevelt to help working families. Remember, I love the Steve Forbes flat tax. I promise you, unless something big happens for me in the next twenty years, my kids will not pay a dime of inheritance tax. LOL. And I live very comfortably with an upper management job. Anyway, on a personal note, I do enjoy this discussion with you. You seem to have a good sense of humor with the banter and really seem to care about the issue. Inheritance taxlessly yours, Tmbrwlfofga

April 14, 2011 at 6:46 p.m.
bret said...

You probably have an individual budget just as the government does. If you get behind and show a deficit you can either increase your income (get a second job) or cut your spending or maybe a combination of both. But I don't know anyone who would try to solve their problem by cutting their income. That would be insane. And yet, that is exactly what the Republicans keep proposing. They'd like to slash the government's income in half, or even eliminate it altogether, and they only want modest spending cuts on things we need the most like education. It makes no sense.

If you think their plan makes sense then go to your boss tomorrow and demand that he cut your pay in half. This way, your boss will be better off and all that goodness will somehow trickle down to you.

April 14, 2011 at 7:13 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

NurseFJ,

I still lurk around. I've been working WAY too much to have time to post and keep up with my reading, so the posting has been minimal. Feed the brain in lieu of arguing with idiots, as it were.

I read the posts of a few of the more enlightened folks. As for most of the the others, I get a kick our of so much stupid being compressed into such a small space. I figure one of these days I may witness the birth of a black hole of stupid. The propaganda of the modern left seems to have the same effect on folks as a lobotomy would.

April 14, 2011 at 7:23 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

bret, it's not that simple. When you're trying to balance the budget for 350,000,000 people, there are ways to cut taxes which cause equal and opposite reactions in which our lives become better. It's much more simple to solve the problems of an individual's budget. Regarding your example of education, if you would like to know when the quality of education in this country began to decline, just look up the date the Federal DoE was established. There will also be an increase in decline at the point when No Child Left Behind was implemented. The federal government's involvement in education is the reason for it being in such a bad state as it is now.

April 14, 2011 at 7:43 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I can't believe you people spent all day dancing for clay on this one... AGAIN.

All of you that think income redistribution is a good thing and covet the wealth of others and presume that you know better how to spend THEIR money should be ashamed of yourselves. You are no better than a common criminal. Why don't you go hang out in Coolidge Park and pop off a few caps. You will be in good, like-minded company.

April 14, 2011 at 8:35 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

obama constituants! VOMIT!!!

April 14, 2011 at 8:36 p.m.
ITguy said...

A lot of opinions have been posted today, and some facts. What a lot of posters fail to understand is that the USA has run the credit cards to the max and we continue to spend more than we take in. To suggest that we can cut spending enough to balance the budget, and pay down the debt without raising taxes is STUPID. It can't be done without destroying our economy. If you think that you don't benefit from Medicare because you are young, you are wrong. You benefit because I can spend my money buying the products that you produce instead of paying medical bills for aging parents. Friends, we all benefit from government spending. We are all connected in this society. No man is an island.

So, do we raise taxes on the poor, or on the rich?

April 14, 2011 at 9:10 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Whats_Wrong_With_The_World said: "What Tocqueville was impressed by was the strength of America’s intermediary institutions – the non-governmental associations which its citizens form in order to address needs in local communities."

Indeed, Tocqueville was impressed with early American “voluteerism,” but I believe you’re taking some liberties with Tocqueville's political views, Whats_Wrong_With_The _World. In Tocqueville “Democracy in America” he is describing the America that he saw around 1835-1840, which is over a 170 years ago. At that time, America was still a developing country with a heavy reliance on agriculture. Clearly, the America of today is a very different from the days when Tocqueville was comparing America to the old world. For starters, there was more social and economic equality in America at that time, and the laws passed were more representative of the civilian population. In addition, there was the matter of hereditary fortunes which Tocqueville writes: "Among a democratic people, where there is no hereditary wealth, every man works to earn a living...Labor is held in honor; the prejudice is not against but in its favor."

April 14, 2011 at 9:47 p.m.
dude_abides said...

I have heard, in my life, two people use the phrase "ditch it out" instead of "dish it out". They would be chet123 and Francis/SeaMonkey. That is a coincidence. A remarkable coincidence. So I am remarking.

April 14, 2011 at 9:53 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

ITguy,

Raising tax rates does not increase revenue in any meaningful way. It doesn't matter who has to pay the higher rates.

Peruse this article and then think a little bit about that "STUPID" word again. http://blogs.marketwatch.com/fundmastery/2010/07/02/does-hiking-tax-rates-raise-more-revenue/

Cutting the spending to 20% of GDP, or less, and growing the tax base (i.e. GDP) is the only actual way to fix the deficit/debt problem(s). You can't get blood from a turnip, and at a revenue rate of 20%GDP, our economy turns into turnip. No matter the tax rate. This is a historical fact. But apparently, only "STUPID" folks are aware of the historical facts. That Marxist koolaide is strong stuff. It induces brain rot by appealing to base motivations of envy, and hate and leads to greater suffering for all of us, not less. It is a mind poison which destroys individual lives and societies as a whole. You're being feed a full sack of B.S., and you really seem to be enjoying it. How sad.

April 14, 2011 at 9:58 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Hey Chet 123. Sorry but I don't have cable so I don't watch Fox News. What you are doing with your posts is the routine of "The best defense is offense." Libs are emotional and can not use logic. They cherry pick small portions of posts and never address the issues that use logic. My fellow conservatives on this site we must realize this; You can not reason something out of someone that did not use reason to get there. Also; Any strong belief can blind people to other realities.

April 14, 2011 at 10:45 p.m.
ITguy said...

Scotty, I think you are the one drinking the Kool-aid. We have the lowest income tax rates in 50 years. We are up to our eyeballs in debt. This trickle down stuff is not working. We will not solve the problems by spending cuts alone. Do you really think that if we cut social security it will not affect the economy? Do you think all those lazy old people will go out and find jobs and start paying taxes if we cut their benefits? We have 9% unemployment as it is. WalMart can't hire that many greeters.

I know that you will blow a gasket over this, but before the Bush tax cuts, we were paying down the debt. Go back to the article that you referenced. Look at the drop in revenue around 2000. That drop was George Bush.

April 14, 2011 at 10:46 p.m.
chet123 said...

tderng...let me get this straight .... TDERNG...who said any thing about envy??? and you said you earned....tderng...if you worked in a mill you better beleived you earned it...it sound like you may be under my financial status LOL LOL....so what is your point....why are you on the defense..LOL LOL...BUDDY...you are not even in the equation LOL LOL....you said you dont expect anyone to give you anything..i certain dont know anybody who begs...i'm trying to see what your point is....if you expect Government to provide infrastrcture,protect border,protect our country(so we wont have anymore 911),..thats require taxes....but there are hundreds of other function...CDC center diesease control,fire department, police dept,prison(so criminal wont escape and take all your money TDERNG)FCC,FDA(food DRUG inspection and approval so you wont get MAD COW desease)parks and lakes...army, navy, air force, oh yeah american spend 45% of the globle defense total...even china only spend 20%...britian 2% france2% germany2%....yeaah we are the big shot of world defense....LOL LOL did you know a nuclear submarine cost from 2.o to 2.5 billions dollars(us have many sub all over the world)......one-f-22raptor JET cost 150 million..This is only a tip of the ICE BERG..my good friend you have the scope of a milk straw...you will pay taxes until you die....i just think the taxes should be fair......no hate here! no envy!..so i dont know what you talking about....take my advice...if you have the balls....opt out of system like the amish...just opt out if you think you can survive without governmentlol lol.....dont just shoot off at the mouth like most ill inform republican who watch FOX NEWS...dont just talk the talk...but walk the walk....opt out of system

April 14, 2011 at 10:52 p.m.
ITguy said...

Based upon what brain scientists know about the function of the two brain regions, researchers believe the structural differences support the notion that liberals are better equipped to make sense of conflicting information while conservatives are better able to recognize a threat.

This from recent brain research. I guess bobMKE missed this.

April 14, 2011 at 10:53 p.m.
chet123 said...

BOBMIKE...there you go again....talking point......liberal...that suppose to scare people....liberal,liberal lol lol lol...liberal could beice cream for all your pea brain know....you are just an republican clone who dont think....i try not to be personal...but i'm a democrat..our party is diverse...we have moderate,progressive, independent and even conservative....we are not goose stepping, people stamped from a cookie cutter like republican.....so know what you are talking about when you say liberal....but even liberal have principle...you my friend is a boot licking protect the rich and greedy at middle class expense republican...hope you feel good about yourself....you are still my friend...you just dont know better!!

April 14, 2011 at 11:05 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

It's interesting that whenever chet's and monkey's posts are close together, they look exactly the same. Punctuation and all. Hmmmm...

April 14, 2011 at 11:16 p.m.
chet123 said...

dude abide.......maybe you in the wrong room ...we challenge opinons...who give a rat flip about i's being dotted or t's being crossed..do you know how stupid you sound with your pseudo intelligence making a comment like that....

April 14, 2011 at 11:18 p.m.
chet123 said...

Savaritn....i can say this......you are a republican lol lol lol...its seem to me you and monkey may be the same...you both republican....and you both evade the issue..lol lol....go back to FOX NEWS and get your marching order...LOL LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 11:23 p.m.
chet123 said...

Republican are so weak with their arguments...have your way at floyd Barber shop...telling unchallenge lies..LOL LOL

April 14, 2011 at 11:25 p.m.
ITguy said...

I guess Chet is the anti-monkey

April 14, 2011 at 11:28 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Chet, the last person I heard bristle against people mentioning punctuation and grammar was Francis/SeaMonkey. So you two guys are, like, the opinion challenging guild? Just out of curiosity, chet, what would your opinion be of someone that played both sides of the issues at once, as a joke? Do you agree that they would have to be stuck in their teens mentally? Would you agree that this game should get old to them, like, way quick? I mean, who would be so dirt brain easily amused? They would be "smile-at-shiny-things stupid", agreed?

April 15, 2011 at 12:17 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

ITguy,

You're missing the point. Raising tax rates does not increase federal revenues. This is a simple fact, shown clearly in the charts accompanying the article I linked. It is an absolute fact that no matter how much the feds tax the rich, or anyone else for that matter, they cannot capture more than ~20% of GDP. They are spending north of 25% of GDP. Cutting the spending and growing the economy is the only way out.

As for paying down the debt in the late 1990's, this is another statist lie, based upon the grain of truth that the yearly deficits WERE much reduced during that time. By ignoring that the SS surplus which was converted to .gov instruments and spent as though it were general revenue and not the debt that is really is one can conjure the appearance of a balanced budget. But, it's still a lie. It is a fact that the total U.S.Federal debt has not decrease year over year since the 1950s. This is irrefutable. Facts are not subject to interpretation.

As for "Bush's" revenue drop, surely you remember the .com bubble pop, followed shortly by the most destructive act of terrorism ever inflicted upon U.S. soil, yes? The large expansion of GDP between '03 and '07 didn't happen due to massive deficit spending, matter of fact the average yearly deficit under GWB (I'm no fan), with a Republican majority(again, I'm no big fan) in congress was "only" 400 billion. This is only one quarter of the present deficit, and yet the left was, rightly, howling at the outrage of 400 billion dollar deficits.

It's time for everyone to put away the political knives and follow the data. Emotional appeals, false rhetoric, bad math and blind partisanship are not solutions. They are the root of the problem. But continue on with your silliness, I'll sit and laugh at the stupidity of your posts as you are not ignorant of the facts, you're just choosing to ignore them. Good luck with that.

April 15, 2011 at 12:22 a.m.
fairmon said...

Ending three wars and enabling the over 30 million unemployed and under employed to find decent paying jobs would solve a major part of the debt growth problem. Simplifying the business and individual tax codes combined with reduction of unnecessary departments and spending would yield amazing results.

Not impossible but difficult with 535 people plus an incompetent administration responsible for doing the right thing for the right reasons when they are not capable of understanding the problem or they are so compromised they can't.

April 15, 2011 at 7:31 a.m.
ITguy said...

Scotty,

While 'Hauser's Law' is convenient for those arguing against any rise in taxes, the following link suggests that our taxes have fallen to well below 20% and have been below 20% since the late 90s.
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/12/06/chart-of-the-day-u-s-taxes/

Additionally, this article shows that taxes as a percent of GDP are much higher in other developed countries.
http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/12/06/chart-of-the-day-u-s-taxes/

I don't have time to debate this today as I am at work, however I just wanted you to know that you have not convinced me.

April 15, 2011 at 7:51 a.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Harp, your post summed it up in a nutshell. Dude_abides, you insight is raising my eyebrows of suspicion as well. Chet, the big deal about capitalization, spelling, and punctuation is so that people read your post as an intelligent point. Seriously, it is hard to even read your post, when after two sentences even the reader feels as if they are proofreading a five year old's essay about their summer vacation. Take a little time to proofread and clean things up. Otherwise, you sound like the opposite image of the dreaded Sea Monkey.

April 15, 2011 at 10:06 a.m.

As a european it really strikes me, that many conservatives don't want the rich tax a bit more than the lower income groups.

Let me just answer by comparing the two cities, I lived in within the last 7 years, that is Birmingham, Alabama, and now a city of 100000 in the south of germany.

Here, we have public transportation, no crime, not a single area of the city looks neglected, all public schools are rather good, and in particular little kids can go to kindergarten and schools themselves. ALL because there is mainly middle class, and the richer pay significantly more taxes. Not only that, also the fees for kindergarten and pre-school depend on the income of the parents, the difference between bottom and top is significant.

All is well accepted since it is a gesture of justice to let the poorer pay a bit less. We do not even invoke fake Bible-citations like Andrew the monkey to justify that..

I do not need to talk about Birmingham.... which I consider as intellectual jungle...

April 15, 2011 at 10:14 a.m.

... to heat up the discussion a bit: There is an Article in Social Psychology Quaterly, Vol. 73, 33--57 (2010) "Why liberals and Atheists are more intelligent"

stating that specific studies showed a very significant correlation between political views and intelligence and religiosity and intelligence...

Looking at the comments of the SEAMONKEY and Andrew these studies get heavily confirmed....

April 15, 2011 at 10:20 a.m.

austrian_in_alabama said... "Here, we have public transportation, no crime, not a single area of the city looks neglected, all public schools are rather good, and in particular little kids can go to kindergarten and schools themselves. ALL because there is mainly middle class, and the richer pay significantly more taxes."

that would NEVER be allowed in America. Americans as a whole are small-minded and any form of government regulated programs for education and healthcare are frowned upon. Every man for himself financially. This country is so far behind others it is laughable. Go to Japan for a few days then come back here. It's like the Stone Ages

April 15, 2011 at 10:26 a.m.
chet123 said...

DUDEABIDE.....Clay's depicts thru this cartoon the satire of a rich man reading the news paper with headline say Rich must share burden while he's sit home in his mansion sipping wine..but in many cases(kolh bro.)this is true....reap the most benifits....and there are many...startng with loans.ie (Donald Trump who repeatly depend on tax payer to bale arrogant butt out when he defaults on loans)....special interest rates,ect....but you my friend can not keep focus on the forum....and i know why....you are a republican...whose getting your southern derriere kick by a black president...how does it fell LOL LOL....so you on here to play games like a child...maybe you are dao...how many name do you have....so when it get heated up you take off running like a scared rabbit.....i talk issues,,,you want to be personal...so i will let you have the boom !

April 15, 2011 at 10:36 a.m.
Reardon said...

"Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar and render unto God that which is God's"

What natural, inalienable right does any government have to confiscate wealth of any member of the population?

April 15, 2011 at 10:51 a.m.
dao1980 said...

Chet!

Seems to me like a case of "he who smelt it dealt it."

Every time you mention me, I will magically appear. Do you remember that I am the voices in your head?

I'm going to tell you to watch fox news and like it, if you don't settle down.

April 15, 2011 at 10:58 a.m.
BobMKE said...

Here's another nail in the liberals/statists coffin. Atlas Shrugged Pt1 is out today.

April 15, 2011 at 11:53 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

"liberals and atheists are more intelligent?...really..

tell me , you european smartass......where's the intelligence in you libs' obsessive desire to control others...even in the daily choices they make?

explain to me, genius......explain the logic...the thought process,..behind you libs' being ok with a woman making a life and death decision/abortion, but not trusting her to make a lunch for her child attending a public school?....

as in chicago..

this a perfect example of the warped liberal mind. it's important to point this out....

explain to us lesser beings, smartass, why a woman can be allowed to kill her unborn baby, but cannot be trusted to make a lunch for her child.

also, folks....we are already living in a somewhat facist state.....and there already is redistribution of wealth......what you libs want to do is take it up few notches......like norway, or some other stupid, two bit control obsessed country..

April 15, 2011 at 12:07 p.m.

as Austrian pointed out other countries with these types of programs are very successful. Government regulated education and healthcare is essential. We don't even have a central high-speed rail. America is very far behind, SeaMonkey in these terms. Liberals, progressives or whatever don't want to "Robin Hood" the rich. We want a fair tax for all classes. If everyone contributed the same percentage, there would be much less dissention in our own country

April 15, 2011 at 12:15 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

i'm still waiting for someone to point out an example of obama's intelligence/ his genius. examples?

not something on paper given to him by some like-minded lefties in academia.....i mean something in the real world.

well?

you libs on here continually prove your lack of intelligence by your insistance that bennett's cartoons are insightful, when in reality they're nothing but propaganda/cheerleading.

April 15, 2011 at 12:33 p.m.
librul said...

Well AquaticSimian, I can think of something on paper that sums up your rants quite well.

April 15, 2011 at 12:54 p.m.
canarysong said...

ItGuy wrote (10:53pm yesterday):

"Based upon what brain scientists know about the function of the two brain regions, researchers believe the structural differences support the notion that liberals are better equipped to make sense of conflicting information while conservatives are better able to recognize a threat."

--- Since Austrian continued along this direction, here is a little more detail on ItGuy's study. You can draw your own conclusions...

"Liberals have more gray matter in a part of the brain associated with understanding complexity, while the conservative brain is bigger in the section related to processing fear, said the study on Thursday in Current Biology."

"We found that greater liberalism was associated with increased gray matter volume in the anterior cingulate cortex, whereas greater conservatism was associated with increased volume of the right amygdala," the study said."

"Other research has shown greater brain activity in those areas, according to which political views a person holds, but this is the first study to show a physical difference in size in the same regions."

"People with a large amygdala are "more sensitive to disgust" and tend to "respond to threatening situations with more aggression than do liberals and are more sensitive to threatening facial expressions," the study said."

"Liberals are linked to larger anterior cingulate cortexes, a region that "monitor(s) uncertainty and conflicts," it said."

"Thus, it is conceivable that individuals with a larger ACC have a higher capacity to tolerate uncertainty and conflicts, allowing them to accept more liberal views."

"Our findings are consistent with the proposal that political orientation is associated with psychological processes for managing fear and uncertainty," the study said."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/07/brain-structure-differs-in-liberals-conservatives-study/

Personally, I'm quite fond of my enlarged anterior cingulate cortex. :-)

The large right amygdala types will be 'disgusted' by this, I'm sure. (they might even become 'aggressive')

April 15, 2011 at 1:19 p.m.
canarysong said...

BobMKE,

Sean Hannity? Really? LOL!

April 15, 2011 at 1:25 p.m.
BobMKE said...

canarysong, No my point is; Here's another nail in the liberals/statists coffin. Atlas Shrugged Pt1 is out today. Don't cherry pick and use the best defense is offense routine to avoid my point.

April 15, 2011 at 2:02 p.m.
pmcauley said...

re: Why Liberals and Atheists Are More Intelligent..

You'd think I would have written this paper myself. I guess I'm more conservative than I thought.

Judging by some of the correspondences, some people here must have brains that are 90% amygdala and 10% fluid.

pm

April 15, 2011 at 2:09 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

no librul....not rants..very good points..that illustrate the madness that is liberalism/progressivism.

if you libs are so intelligent, then why do you feel the need to restrict freedom, to control, to take over, and to supress? shouldn't you feel more confident?

why the attempt to control the internet, talk radio and destroy fox news?

you don't seem very confident?

it's because you can't win in the arena of ideas.

i don't see any convervatives trying to find ways to destroy cnn, nbc, abc, cbs, msnbc, pbs?

doing the same thing over and over again even though it's been proven to be a disaster is not a sign of intelligence, it's insanity.

history has proven that man will not except a boot on the neck. what makes you think you're going to succeed?

what you libs want is no different than what the soviet union wanted, what china still wants, what ghadaffi wants, what chavez wants, what castro wants, what hitler wanted, what stalin wanted and what all the other dictators, monarchs, bullies and thugs throughout history wanted....it's called control....control over our daily lives.....you just don't respect freedom.

April 15, 2011 at 2:13 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

i meant accept..not except...

another thing you libs do is hide your desire to control behind a facade of campassion...you're frauds...

April 15, 2011 at 2:24 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

SeaMonkey, perhaps one of the only true forms of evidence to prove intelligence is Academia. Obviously you do not know that because you couldn't have more than a GED. Otherwise, your grammar, spelling and punctuation would be respectable. President Obama was Editor and President of the Harvard Law Review. This, while he was a student at Harvard. Regardless of age, race, creed, or religion, you cannot get into Harvard Law School without being intelligent and well above standard in comparison to other students.
Incidentally, it is funny how you keep trying to beat up on Michelle Obama for RECOMMENDING kids eat healthier. She is not an office holder. She has no authority to change law. However, she is igniting debate on a major problem in this nation. You should check into the diabetes rates and obesity rates in this nation. What is even more hypocritical (typical Tea Partier) is how you claim you want local control in government and that the Federal Government should have no say so in Education. This is why we try to have minimal Federal standards, because when you return full control to the local governments, you get into crap like the Chicago system, or schools that start banning books. If you believe that because Obama is from Chicago, that then it is his fault, well I once had a cup of Coffee in New Orleans, but I am not responsible for the corruption there either. You are so glib. I will continue to pray for you and you prejudicial ways you hypocritical make believe Christian liar.

April 15, 2011 at 2:26 p.m.
pmcauley said...

SeaMonkey your amygdala is showing.

April 15, 2011 at 2:30 p.m.
woody said...

SeaMonkey said...

i'm still waiting for someone to point out an example of obama's intelligence/ his genius. examples?

not something on paper given to him by some like-minded lefties in academia.....i mean something in the real world.

well?


I swear, I thought I had answered this sufficiently yesterday..but apparently you either overlooked the answer or merely ignored it.....

Here we go again..Obama is the duly elected President of the United States and you are a boring 'hack'. Obama is a Harvard graduate and you are not. Obama addresses congress..can you even address an envelope?? "Monkey Doo" what can you do besides parrot any and every conservative mouthpiece you have ever heard?

Now..go somewhere and 'get a life'...Woody

April 15, 2011 at 3:04 p.m.
Leaf said...

Oh man, I just read a few of these posts and actually chuckled a little bit out loud. SeaMonkey's really been taking it on the chin.

Does anyone really believe in that trickle-down fantasy any more? It's been very well proven that the middle class churn a greater percentage of their income than more wealthy. That churn is what creates taxes as well as economic activity.

The whole "don't tax the small business owner" thing is a red herring. As a former small business owner I can tell you that you are taxed as an individual, and your corporation is taxed separately. If your business is doing well and you can afford to hire another worker who will bring in more revenue than he costs, you do so. It has nothing to do with your personal taxes. If you're paying yourself so much that you're getting into that higher bracket, then you are either robbing your busniness or you're now a "medium business owner." In any case, you've decided not to use that extra $80,000 to hire another worker.

@Reardon: ["Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar and render unto God that which is God's" What natural, inalienable right does any government have to confiscate wealth of any member of the population? ]

. . . You missed the entire point of that quote. Jesus was saying to pay your taxes. Look it up.

April 15, 2011 at 3:22 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Incidentally SeaMonkey, is "campassion" as you called it, when a camp counselor feels pity for you? Just one more nail in your coffin of ignorance.

April 15, 2011 at 3:30 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Did you catch how thebama kept referring to "spending" on tax cuts and deductions? Think about the mindset that could craft those words.

The pompous gourmand in the Whitehouse sincerely believes the government owns everything and allows us to keep only what it feels is appropriate. This guy is really dangerous. Wake up obamabots!

His speech convinced me that I really do need to worry about this guy moving to confiscate private retirement savings. Nothing is off limits in that jerks mind.

April 15, 2011 at 3:30 p.m.
canarysong said...

MonkeyMan wrote:

"you libs' obsessive desire to control others...even in the daily choices they make"

-- The same people who continually whine about government control are the same people who want to restrict who is allowed to marry, who is allowed to adopt children, who is allowed to serve in the military (open about who they are); they want to restrict women's access to legal abortion and the right to privacy regarding it; they support the erosion of right to privacy laws under the guise of 'homeland security'; and they often try to bar or oust atheists from public office.

I would say that these issues are far more serious than the anomaly of one city forbidding kids from bringing their own lunch to school. As usual, logic does not intrude the least bit on your 'eccentric' thought processes. Too bad that you are far from alone in seeing the conflict here. Either government control in people's lives is good or it is bad; make up your minds!

April 15, 2011 at 3:52 p.m.
rolando said...

It only takes a simple majority vote of the House to begin Impeachment Proceedings of the President [the Repubs have the votes today].

The Prez has no say in the matter.

It then takes two-thirds of the Senate [67 votes] to remove him from office. The Repubs do not have that many votes there [yet] but 2012 is fast approaching...at which point these issues either become moot.....or we die as a nation should theBama be re-elected.

The Prez still has no say...

So let's give it a shot...oops, strike -- no, remove -- that aggressive word phrase and substitute "give it a try".

April 15, 2011 at 3:57 p.m.
Leaf said...

SeaMonkey said, "i don't see any convervatives trying to find ways to destroy cnn, nbc, abc, cbs, msnbc, pbs?"

Hmm. Odd and completely untrue. CNN, NBC, ABC and CBS are all mainstream. Social conservatives make fun of MSNBC the same way social liberals trash Fox News. Also social conservatives have been trying their best to defund PBS.

I think social conservatives hate Sesame Street because of Bert and Ernie's relationship. And the minorities, of course.

April 15, 2011 at 4:10 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

I know your 3:52 post isn't directed at me. To be sure I have no objections to gay marriages, in fact it is good, they can't proliferate and may adopt. Not only would I support their military service I would recruit them. I didn't support and I still do not support having a homeland security department. It is a duplication of national guard, FBI and CIA duties and responsibilities. States should be prepared and handle disasters in their state.

The federal government is far too involved in peoples daily lives and that includes what kids eat, that again is a state issue and not federal.

I will repeat it is the most inefficient process imaginable to have the Fed's confiscating money for welfare and recklessly distributing it after skimming around 50% for admin cost. I would prefer being required to donate up to 20% of my taxes due to eligible charities of my choice and deduct the contribution from my taxes. Much more efficient than a bunch of impersonal, incompetent, lazy ass government employees handling it (I know, not all of them but a high percent). It is time the cathedral building hypocrites calling themselves Christians to walk the talk (I know some few and I mean very few do better than others).

The federal department of education needs to be educated or eliminated. Name one thing that is better to the extent it justifies the investment since that department was established.

The federal department of energy has done nothing toward the charge given when established. Our dependence and the cost of energy has gone steadily up. Check out their spending on elaborate office complexes through out the country.

The czars and their expensive support stars need to go back to their public jobs, earn a living and pay taxes. Obama is an economic idiot and the tea party is a joke. Both proposals are like spitting in the ocean to raise the sea level. Chris Dodd made the point of their economic ineptness for me when he said "we can't regulate that banks require 5% down to buy a house, only those that could afford it would buy". He is retiring but there are several of the same mentality ready to replace him on the committee.

As you know I have no issue with paying more taxes and having the higher incomes pay more but not if it is to continue being wasted and growing an already too big federal government. I prefer to not have a county like those the founders fought for independence and freedom from taxation and tyranny.

April 15, 2011 at 4:47 p.m.
fairmon said...

Those in the top 5% pay over 80% of all income taxes paid, according to the IRS. Those insisting they pay more should be willing to pay 1% more for each 2% added to those with higher incomes. This only after all special treatments are removed such as special capital gains rates, all deductions and other tax avoidance means are abolished.

Set aside a fund for relocation assistance for those that prefer the way other countries do things and assist them in joining the socialist, progressive, centralized planning and control or any country of their choice.

Obama and the spend less republicans make me sick with their military intervention under the pretense it is to assist people seeking freedom and it is our obligation. BS, it is oil and nothing else. The government should develop and maintain a military that can and will retaliate unmercifully against any attack. If Afghanistan is where Bin Laden was there should have been no standing structure or sign of life and mountains should have been leveled then come home. Any similar event in the future and everyone in the offending country would be pointing at the source. Quit being the world police and savior of mankind and get our own house in order or join the rest of the third world countries.

You can tell our elected officials are all great lovers since all they want to do is foreplay.

April 15, 2011 at 5:10 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp wrote:

"canarysong, I know your 3:52 post isn't directed at me."

No, harp, it was not directed at you. In fact, although I disagree with you on some things, I think that you are something that our country could use more of ..... someone capable of thinking outside of rigid party lines ..... a true independent. Here is something that I wrote earlier today (saved but didn't post) after my post about the brain research.


A thought on the brain research...

I think that it would be interesting to do a study on individuals who view themselves as conservative in one sphere, say fiscal issues, and liberal in the other, social issues. Harp might be a good example of such a person. I would guess that those who are liberal in regard to social issues would likely be of the larger ACC type (like liberals) regardless of their stance on fiscal issues (since 'fear' of out-groups seems to drive many conservative social views).


Harp also wrote:

"Set aside a fund for relocation assistance for those that prefer the way other countries do things and assist them in joining the socialist, progressive, centralized planning and control or any country of their choice."

Attractive idea in some ways, but not so simple for many, many reasons. Conservatives are simply going to have to put up with those of us who disagree with them and deal with the fact that we have as much right to determine the course that this country takes as anyone else does.

April 15, 2011 at 7:14 p.m.
mad_commenter said...

I personally think there there should be no representation with out taxation. The tax code should be very simple. The same percentage for all. Period. Why should I have to pay more cause I've done what it takes to get ahead? Why should I be forced to pay for some lazy person who doesn't work, or doesn't work hard enough to pay his own way? The government taking OVER 50% in some cases is outrageous. These are the rich. What would happen if the government took over 50% of what YOU earned? Huh? You'd feel a lot different about it then I suspect.

This demonetization of people that have done well needs to stop. When did it become a bad thing to succeed in this country?

I'm perfectly OK with chucking the current tax code so there are no ways out for the ultra rich. If the bracket is 20%, you freaking pay 20%. But ALL people should pay taxes. No exceptions.

April 15, 2011 at 7:15 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

cnn, nbc, abc and cbs are mainstream...yeah..sure..cnn?.....they're liberal mouthpieces....mainstream or not..

woody..you're a moron....that's your proof that obama is intelligent? sorry attempt ,you lame, liberal ass kisser....

i said proof.....not more propaganda.....he was elected..so? ..i'm talking about examples of his so-called brilliance...ther're piles of examples of elected officials who were elected for all kinds of reasons.....proof....i want proof...of something he's written and said...that makes him brilliant.....in the REAL WORLD...not academia...what brilliant policy is he responsible for...what vision does he have that's brilliant......

academia is not the real world......it's elitist, leftist, theory and arrogance....it's not about practical application

no..obama is a hack...a political hack..quite possibly the most successful one that's ever been...

he's brilliant in a way a pimp is..or a street corner thug...or the way bernard madoff was...he's a smooth talker with no substance...his "yes we can"..and "change" bull**** during the campaign is the perfect example.....and you liberal idiots fell for it hook, line and sinker.....

what does that mean, timberwolfjackass?......it means nothing..

there is no proof that obama is brilliant...none, zero....he's a statist....thats' all..he's a powerful advocate for big government..that doesn't make him brilliant..

April 15, 2011 at 7:33 p.m.
fairmon said...

If agreeing that some should be able to dictate that I allow and and agree with confiscation of money to be administered in a wasteful way by a central government then I will be among the loudest in protesting without aligning with any party.

I may have to put up with those save the world generation of Americans that have no appreciation for the fight for independence and the escape from such governing that provides them with the opportunities to pursue and excel. However, I will fight them just as hard as the founders fought for our independence. I just haven't found a political party that is willing to seriously pursue the right thing to do for the country. Let me emphasize I am not advocating abandoning the elderly, children and the disabled. I am advocating doing it more efficiently and improve the assistance.

The federal government cannot and will not do it without bankrupting all of us. Doom and gloom as it may sound this country will soon default on it's debt if Bernanke quits printing money on June 30th as advertised then all hell will break loose.

April 15, 2011 at 8:04 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

harp,

I could not agree with you more. One of a handful of brilliant minds on this forum.

April 15, 2011 at 8:53 p.m.
sd said...

"I just haven't found a political party that is willing to seriously pursue the right thing to do for the country."

They want to keep their jobs, naturally, and the electorate has not been tolerant of reality. Political expedience is the piss in our cornflakes. (I'll wait for the next bowl, thanks.)

Democrats and Republicans will do anything to avoid actual governance and tough decisions. Look at what BRILLIANT deflections they trot out whenever things get tough: Obama's citizenship, gay marriage, golden parachutes. The electorate fetches those political footballs like a well-trained dog. Gooood boy.

Obama won't actually say, "Raise taxes," because it's a career-killer. So he says, "Reduce spending in the tax code [1]," while the GOP brainstorms a dozen different names for the same lazy idea, which is to cut taxes on the upper echelon and let the chips fall where they may.

Hey, maybe when Trump runs he'll drop enough cash to give the economy a kick in the balls. It'd make it worth having to read about him for the next year and a half.

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/04/13/text-of-obama-speech-on-the-deficit/

April 15, 2011 at 9:11 p.m.
dude_abides said...

United States of rolando

Articles of Impeachment:

  1. His politics differ from mine.

  2. He's a negro.

  3. He hates our freedom.

April 15, 2011 at 9:56 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Seamonkey says: "academia is not the real world." !

April 15, 2011 at 9:59 p.m.
rolando said...

Your obviously bigoted Articles of Impeachment will never make it, dude...except with racist, freedom-hating, odd-ball yellow-dog Dems such as yourself.

On the other hand, if you merely wish to be a wise-a$$ [and a shallow one at that], state your position more clearly.

April 15, 2011 at 10:21 p.m.
dude_abides said...

rolandon't... You're shaping up the strategy for impeachment without stating any grounds and I'm the demogogue? I would think that you people would keep your mouths shut for at least one term, after the slow motion train wreck you put us through for eight years because you could not afford to admit you were wrong about the cabal of fascist buffoons you were so proud to coronate. Seriously, what a freaking circus you snake handlers put us through! I really can't believe anything you people say. You should have all taken about 12 years off. Sort of a time out for misbehavior. But this is America, so you boys just keep spouting that garbage and back it with skewed numbers and vaguery. Running around like chicken little screaming "this guy is falling! this guy is falling! (Really, I sentence you to 12 years of inside voice)

April 15, 2011 at 11:21 p.m.

What works in the world (of poverty relief): God

"True philanthropy must take into account spiritual as well as physical needs," poverty fighters a century ago noted, and both Christians and Jews did. Christians worshiped a God who came to earth and showed in life and death the literal meaning of compassion—suffering with. Jewish teaching stressed the pursuit of righteousness through the doing of good deeds. Groups such as the Industrial Christian Alliance noted that they used "religious methods"—reminding the poor that God made them and had high expectations for them—to "restore the fallen and helpless to self-respect and self-support."

“Challenge that goes beyond the material is still essential to poverty fighting. In Washington, D.C., multimillion dollar programs have failed, but a mile from the U.S. Capitol success stories are developing: Spiritually-based programs such as Clean and Sober Streets, where ex-alcoholics and ex-addicts help those still in captivity; the Gospel Mission, which fights homelessness by offering true hope; and the Capitol Hill Crisis Pregnancy Center, where teenage moms and their children, born and unborn, are cared for, are all saving lives. In Dallas, Texas, a half-mile from the Dallas Housing Authority's failed projects, a neighborhood group called Voice of Hope invites teenagers to learn about God through Bible studies and to work at renovating deteriorated homes in their neighborhood. During the past decade, crime rates among the boys involved with Voice of Hope and pregnancy rates among the girls have been much lower than those in the surrounding community.

“Giving by itself, we need to remember, is morally neutral. We need to give rightly so as not to impede the development of values that enable people to get out of poverty and stay out. When … principles of effective compassion are widely understood and practiced, antipoverty work can be effective … The best programs offer challenge, not just enabling, and deal with spiritual questions as well as material needs … There is no effective substitute for the hard process of one person helping another. A century-old question—Does any given "scheme of help… make great demands on men to give themselves to their brethren?"—is still the right one to ask.”

from Transforming Welfare by Marvin Olasky

April 15, 2011 at 11:31 p.m.

At the end of a long week, there's nothing more relaxing than lighting up a Chesterfield and giving those robber-barons their comeuppance.

Personally, I ain't signing off on a budget deal ‘til they lower the tax on cigarettes. Talk about RIDICULOUS!

April 15, 2011 at 11:43 p.m.
illusionist777 said...

(yawn)... same old liberal view point. Get an original thought, please

April 15, 2011 at 11:47 p.m.

harp again, you are right on. Canary, any country you care to join? I'm paying the way....

April 16, 2011 at 12:16 a.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong said; Attractive idea in some ways, but not so simple for many, many reasons. Conservatives are simply going to have to put up with those of us who disagree with them and deal with the fact that we have as much right to determine the course that this country takes as anyone else does.

Would you allow a drunk to drive with you as a passenger if you could keep from it? That sounds like someone that marries a person with every intent of changing them instead of accepting the person they chose to marry. I was only suggesting if the panacea society desired exist help them become a member of it.

April 16, 2011 at 6:02 a.m.

It is really funny to read the monkeys postes. Proposing higher taxes for one percent of the population by about two percent is immediately connected to government takeover and systems like Cuba and China... stupidity is infinite...

it would just be funny if it is not so sad and dangerous..

it is like Reagan when he said in the sixties that when Medicare comes, communism will take over... interestingly, these conservative idiots will never admit that their paranoia was wrong...

April 16, 2011 at 7:43 a.m.

Seamonkey wrote:

"Explain to me, genius......explain the logic...the thought process,..behind you libs' being ok with a woman making a life and death decision/abortion, but not trusting her to make a lunch for her child attending a public school?...."

First, nobody is a fan of abortion, even if you think liberals find abortion funny, but banning abortion would lead to middle-age situations nobody wants to see...

Concerning nutrition, if I see how much fatter american kids are compared to european kids, I find the outcry really amusing against Michelle Obama's tries to "educate" about healthy meals.

I really hope that americans fight against Michelle tries. Otherwise how should we recognize american tourists from a mile away.. Here, fat people are by definition american, and the real fat ones are not even travelling.

April 16, 2011 at 8:45 a.m.
chet123 said...

seamonkey(dao&20 other names)....is on a rant about liberal....notice how he use the word.....liberal,liberal,liberal,liberal....its the boogey man..its the boogey man....its the boogey man mama!..the definition of liberal is anyone not agreeing with his close-minded,fascism philosophy that have not worked sucessfully in any society!!!!

April 16, 2011 at 11:15 a.m.
chet123 said...

i see why seamonkey uses 20 different names....hes embarass for anyone to know one person can be so stupid,,,!

April 16, 2011 at 11:21 a.m.
fairmon said...

austrian_in_alabama

No doubt education regarding diet is essential. I think to not allow a parent to prepare a meal for their child to take to school is too much government intervention. Educate the child and parent and encourage the preparation of a healthy meal. I would prefer to see a school providing free healthy meals to those children whose parents can't afford to pay the typical price in a way that the child is not embarrassed by class mates knowing they are receiving free meals.

If you want less of something then tax it into oblivion which governments can do very well. I would have no problem with taxing unhealthy foods sufficiently to pay for the eventual health care cost.

April 16, 2011 at 11:25 a.m.
fairmon said...

I agree with Michelle Obama, parents are not prepared to educate the children regarding healthy eating since they are not educated in such either. I don't hink she advocated not allowing children to bring a meal to school prepared by a parent, I don't know.

April 16, 2011 at 11:28 a.m.
fairmon said...

I have no issue with a woman having choices regarding giving birth but those same people that support it put Kevorkian in jail for those opting to end their misery at the other end of life. I think those of sound mind and clear thinking should have the right to assisted termination of a miserable lingering progressive illness with no quality of life possible. Politicians and the judiciary think they know what is best for everyone and impose on them their beliefs.

April 16, 2011 at 11:36 a.m.
chet123 said...

I agree Harp.....

April 16, 2011 at 11:58 a.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

What you are seeing and experienci­ng with AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER­S will be the NORM in government if Republican­s have their way.

Air traffic controller­s going to sleep on the job because Republican­s want to manage the country on the cheap will be only the beginning of the decline of American government­.

If you thought the Bush years were a mess, you ain't seen nothing YET!

Death Panels? At least under our current health care system, SENIORS have a chance. After the Republican­s get finished with health care, Medicaid, social security and Medicare; only GOD will be able to help the SENIORS.

Yep, let the Republican­s GUT government­, and sleeping air traffic controller­s in understaff­ed air traffic control towers because Republican­s want to manage the country on the CHEAP will be the LEAST of our worries.

April 16, 2011 at 11:59 a.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

chirping about the 5 percent paying 80 percent of taxes is chirping about the obvious.

There is a reason 5 percent pay 80 percent of taxes and this reason is the 5 percent earns 90 percent of wealth in the country.

would you chirpers be happier if the poor paid 80 percent of the taxes?

then the poor would surely have nothing.

i suppose it would make more sense to have the family making 30 thousand a year pay 35 percent and let the family making million a year pay 10 percent. the family making a million is obviously out there earning his million and deserves to pay less tax.

Jesus had a saying:

"Republicans will make sure we have the poor with us always!"

April 16, 2011 at 12:11 p.m.
fairmon said...

stanleyyelnats,

Your conclusion that the 5% get 90% of the income is far from accurate. It is not suggested that the 5% should pay less than they now pay but if they pay more then the rest of us need to also increase what we put in or that we don't take out of the treasury. And, do away with some of the useless and frivolous spending by the government.

I am not a supporter of a government that desires to make all of us equally impoverished and takes away any incentive to be successful.

April 16, 2011 at 2:46 p.m.
rolando said...

"You're shaping up the strategy for impeachment without stating any grounds and I'm the demogogue?"

Developing the Articles is not my job, dude. Unlike you and your ilk, I do not pretend it is.

You are still stuck in theBama's favorite phrase -- "It's all Bush's fault". Well, he has had over two years now to make it his baby and he is still unable to do anything constructive of the country.

And Bush was a RINO his second term...just as Dear Leader theBama will become even more of a dictator than he is, should he get a second go-around.

April 16, 2011 at 3:42 p.m.
canarysong said...

Sometimes it's enlightening to review what wise people who came before us had to say about an issue that we are struggling with...

"If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich." - John F. Kennedy

“Noblesse oblige; or, superior advantages bind you to larger generosity” - Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1803-1882

“To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children...to leave the world a better place...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded.” -  Ralph Waldo Emerson

“Joy can be real only if people look upon their life as a service, and have a definite object in life outside themselves and their personal happiness” - Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy, 1828-1910

“One would give generous alms if one had the eyes to see the beauty of a cupped receiving hand.” - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, 1749-1832

“The wise man does not lay up his own treasures. The more he gives to others, the more he has for his own.” - Lao Tzu Chinese philosopher and founder of Taoism, 600 BC-531 BCE

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of sharing gifts, they would not enjoy their gifts without sharing them with others, nor would the taint of stinginess obsess the heart and stay there. even if it were their last and final bit of food, they would not enjoy its use without sharing it, if there were anyone to receive it" - The Buddha, Itivuttaka 18

“Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.” - The Buddha 563-483 BCE

April 16, 2011 at 3:48 p.m.
chet123 said...

Glad to see there real heavy-weights(deep informed thinker) around here....

April 16, 2011 at 3:56 p.m.
rolando said...

And yet, canarysong, in the long run each and every one of those quotes, with one possible exception, deals with people giving of themselves...not being forced to turn over a portion of their wages without their consent. All good thoughts and they use words such as; genersity, easing even one life, personal joy, alms, giving personal treasure, and sharing.

The possible exception...JFK [my first vote...and the last for a Dem.] Evidently his rum-running based family fortune helped him realize that making alcohol available to the poor was somehow helping them.

April 16, 2011 at 8:31 p.m.
rolando said...

Incidentally, dude, for a real picture of our lives under theBama's rule vs that "moron's" presidency, check out this link"

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=3JDT5vBQQr8&vq=medium

April 16, 2011 at 8:33 p.m.
canarysong said...

Rolando,

I know that I echo the sentiment of quite a few others when I say, my taxes that go to programs for the needy are not 'forced', they are submitted freely with my consent.

April 16, 2011 at 9:01 p.m.
rolando said...

canarysong;

Noble sentiments, indeed.

The problem is, your taxes are used not only to help the needy but to support everything the government does whether you like it or not. [That idiotic bridge to nowhere, Planned Parenthood's genocide, or the Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya wars, for instance.]

Your governmentally forced support, under threat of law, for one and non-support for another is the difference between giving freely and outright confiscation.

Personally, I go the route of giving to the charities of MY choice, not the government's. It is MY money, not theirs.

"The poor we will always have with us...", by definition. If we have "the rich", someone must always be on the other end of the bell curve -- "the poor".

Our government would have us all -- except themselves -- on the same level [the collective over the individual].

April 17, 2011 at 3:54 a.m.
chet123 said...

rolando..we will always have the poor...but we shouldnt have system to exploit them.....they have little power...escpecilly women and children...this country is cursed by GOD if america neglect the poor and weak....in the bible "GOD have always brought destruction on any nation to exploit it widows children and poor....check the scripture out.......and for so called Christian to stand and watch this happen without saying anything its a smear on your power to witness to the world(that why theres a muslim movement and Christian will not have GOD as protector with lack of compassion for the above segment...so go ahead and dig your own hole with your selfishness and greed.....in addition..the middle class is also becoming the new poor...

April 18, 2011 at 8:26 a.m.
rolando said...

I take care of those needy surrounding me, chet. I cannot help everyone in the world nor does God ask that of us. I prefer to use my resources to aid others as I choose -- not who others [specifically the gov't] think I should help.

You evidently have your own little Hell in which you spend a bit of time each day, hoping others will join you. Good luck with that. Loneliness can be a killer.

By the way, it is the poor themselves -- and those landsharks feeding on the fringes -- who also exploit the poor through high rent, high food costs, high crime rates, theft, shootings, etc...perhaps with good cause. Perhaps not.

April 18, 2011 at 8:52 a.m.
rolando said...

As to the middle class becoming the new poor, chet...well, you can blame theBama for that. His attempts to flatten the bell curve through "income redistribution" has merely succeeded in moving the center of the curve toward the "poor" end.

April 18, 2011 at 8:59 a.m.
chet123 said...

bell cruve my butt....save your lies...this started with your hero ronald reagon...the dumbish president this country ever had...with that trickle dowm theory...LOL LO where did the man go to school...eureka college(its has about a 1,000 student...) its like tennessee temple LOL LOL sorry... temple! globilization crap,,,breaking the labor movement and brought in immigants,,,trading arms with terrorist...yeah...just pretend all of that didnt happen....the whole world know too....if you want to call turth Hell...IT MAYBE TO YOU!!! lol lol in denial

April 18, 2011 at 5:05 p.m.
chet123 said...

seamonkey if you stop running from me i will call you out on your question....about intelligent of past president including your hero LOL LOL...and your dumb butt presidential candidates...ie michele baugman,oral roberts..former democrat...wasnt enough money for her...sarah palin..took forever to get her 4years degree,cant run her own home, her baby is not her husband shhhhh media hush ,hush about that LOL LOL,,where are you seamonkey??????????????????

April 18, 2011 at 5:14 p.m.
rolando said...

chet ...save your gibberish...learn history...stop taking the dole...man up..LMAO...move out of mama's basement...you have diploma envy...as well as penis envy...Trump???!! closes with your Messiah, the idiot you kneel down to...ROTFLMAO...maybe YOU should get a blue dress.

April 20, 2011 at 2:37 p.m.
chet123 said...

Hello Rolando/Seamonkey....i struck a nerve didnt I...what do you know about HISTORY..LOL LOL lOL...watching FOX NEWS LOL lOLredistribution started with ronald Reagon....trickle down theory...your hero ronald reagon protected the rich and greedy....biggist flip flopper in the world...he cant even get his children to agree with himLO LOL LOL split Family ..40 years democrat ran things and america was powerful....but no old ronnie trading weapon for hostages (under cover..covert)dont forget Globlization....ad breaking the labor movement to depress amrican working class wages....recruiting worker outside america to work in our country(now republican want to get rid of them LOL LOL)..deregulating Banks(let them do what they want to do...hmmmm how did that work for you,,,lol lol,,,the man was looney...and republican worship him LOL LOL

April 21, 2011 at 9:01 a.m.
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