published Wednesday, August 3rd, 2011

Shared Sacrifice

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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woody said...

I wish I could say that was funny..oh, how I wish I could say that was funny..Woody

August 3, 2011 at 5:19 a.m.
patriot1 said...

50% pay no income tax and many of these upon filing their taxes get even more via the EIC....Good toon.

August 3, 2011 at 6:03 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Our President promised to create 2.5 million jobs; in fact he destroyed 3.3 million. Shared sacrifice? (Article in yesterday's Wall Street Journal--2 August, page A11--by Bret Stephens, "The Obama Downgrade, Alphabetically").

August 3, 2011 at 6:27 a.m.
EaTn said...

The motto of our current legislation: "Never let a non-crisis get wasted".

We will not get fair shared sacrifices in this country until there is an income tax code reform in addition to the spending cuts. The current code gives big breaks to those at the lower and upper end of the brackets, and leaves the middle income with few options. I don't believe our Congress has the guts to tackle this beast.

August 3, 2011 at 7:28 a.m.
acerigger said...

patriot1,of the "50% who pay no taxes",keep in mind that roughly 35% of those don't earn enough to rise above the federal poverty line,another 10% are seniors who are living on soc.sec.which is not taxable,so what's your point?

August 3, 2011 at 7:32 a.m.
timbo said...

Acerigger......the point is that people don't mind too much being taxed if the money is spent properly . that aint happenin .....Obama spent almost 60 percent more honest hearts budget then his predecessor . That just want some of this upset .

August 3, 2011 at 8:03 a.m.
mymy said...

acerigger: Why are these numbers rising? How many made bad choices and dropped out of school. How many are living off government handouts? Our society is broke and so is this country. We can't support everybody, although The Bomb is trying to spread the wealth (his definition of shared sacrifice) which doesn't work! His policies are killing this country with unemployment higher than when he arrived on the scene. If you think things are gona turn around anytime soon, better buckle your seatbelt the bumpy ride is gona get worse.

August 3, 2011 at 8:17 a.m.
fairmon said...

Shared sacrifice means essentially no change from the present favor showing by congress through the tax codes and programs. It limits discretionary spending by the administration and congress.

21 billion less spending in 2012 and 46 billion in 2013 out of 3.7 trillion is not measurable. Reducing the debt over the next ten years from a projected 28 trillion to only 26 trillion will not reduce dependence or create jobs. There is no provision for closing tax loop holes or increasing revenue by any means.

We will learn that the "super committee" is not so super and not as powerful as indicated. Congress left a lot of business unattended to take a one month vacation where they will spend a lot of time trying to convince their constituents that the wetness on their leg is caused by rain. They will swear they would not piss on our leg they really care about the country and we need to elect them to continue fighting for us.

The power brokers and decision makers were:

o Obama and Biden

o McConnell and Boehner

o Reid and Pelosi

6 people out of 546 (535 in congress, 2 in administration and 9 in the supreme court) crafted this impotent piece of legislation .

August 3, 2011 at 8:26 a.m.
rolando said...

Not bad, Clay. This one can be interpreted in any manner whatsoever... Who is carrying the load and who isn't?

August 3, 2011 at 8:35 a.m.
fairmon said...

Have you seen the program "what would you do"? That would be the question to ask those seeking office. Is it time for limiting terms in congress? Would the states vote for a balanced budget amendment? Where are the specific logical plans to increase demand for American goods and services which results in jobs. See and understand H.R. 25 and S.13 at:

fairtax.org

Congress needs to feel unbearable pressure to pass these without mucking them up and protecting their ability to manipulate and show favor through the tax codes.

August 3, 2011 at 8:43 a.m.
GreenKepi said...

How many of you who wants more taxes and want this 'so-called' "shared-sacrifice"...use the 'Short-Form' when filing your Income Tax? Bet each and everyone of you 'bitching' about the Tea-Party, itemize!

August 3, 2011 at 9:04 a.m.
moonpie said...

I agree with rolando on this.

In fact, it looks like the load is evenly distributed. One guy is weak or has a bad back or something.

Many interpretations possible here.


In case you hadn't heard it, NPR had a fun piece on the psychology of the debate over the debt ceiling and likely issues that prevent things from getting done and some small changes in policy that would be good motivators. If you have time you should give it a listen.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/07/29/138802290/political-negotiations-also-shaped-by-human-psychology

August 3, 2011 at 9:14 a.m.
limric said...

Pretty good Clay. Nice and ambiguous.

The only revision I can think of is the man on the left should be wearing a suit and GOP campaign button.

Hmm, then again....

Maybe the guy on the right should have a campaign pin on also. A picture of Hillary Clinton with the words, "*See, I told you so!"*

August 3, 2011 at 9:21 a.m.
hambone said...

Clay, You left out one worker. The one in the middle, ( the poor) who is going to get crushed when the one with the heavy end, (middle class) gives out and the one with the light load (the rich) just walks away from this trainwreck with a smerk of his face!

August 3, 2011 at 9:25 a.m.
OllieH said...

patriot1 writes, "50% pay no income tax"

That's true, but I guarantee that the poor pay more in taxes (proportionately) than the rich do. Income taxes, after all, are not the only contribution a taxpayer makes to the expense of government.

The poor, for instance, pay into Social Security and Medicare. This amounts to a 15% withholding from any salary earned. Of their take-home pay, the poor will spend almost every penny of that on the cost of living, and almost all that spending will be subject to sales tax (which in Chattanooga is over 9%).

So, a poor person's gross pay IS subjected to taxes (FICA). And a higher percentage of their net pay is subjected to sales tax. So, when you really do the math, the portion of a poor person's earnings that goes to support the government is actually much greater than the portion of a rich person's earnings. Not a greater AMOUNT of money, mind you, but a greater PORTION of the money they earn.

Understanding this, I really wish that the right would stop putting forth such a disingenuous argument about tax burdens. Just because someone pays little or nothing in income taxes, does NOT mean that they are not contributing to society. In most cases they're contributing more of what they have than the rich ever will.

August 3, 2011 at 10:09 a.m.
memphisexile said...

I think we should get rid of all deductions and tax credits and then see where we are. Deductions and credits are ploys all politicians use to allow their constituents to avoid paying taxes. However, when you have a tax system and then allow some people to avoid taxes it does not work properly because then you have to enact new taxes or raise the tax rate to cover the avoidance. No one should get favorable tax treatment because they are married, they have kids, pay interest on student loans, purchased their first home, bought a electric car, own a second home or my favorite the Bush tax credit you get simply for having a job. Both parties are guilty of this silliness.

Everyone has their own little pet deduction so I figure closing all the loop holes will hit everyone. Once we do that we can see where we are financially and then make a plan to pay the debt down and adjust tax rates accordingly, hopefully downward once there is no avoidance. This idea would not be popular because everyone "needs" their deduction/tax credit, but I think it would be a good way to raise revenue without enacting any new tax. Of course I know some will claim this is the government raising taxes on them, but I don't think stopping tax avoidance is raising taxes.

August 3, 2011 at 10:16 a.m.
hambone said...

nooga, The oil companies will have to have the tax payer funded subsidies to get by!

They simply can't make it without our help!

August 3, 2011 at 10:50 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

CONGRESS of the UNITED STATES Washington DC August 2011

Debt ceiling appropriation and budget legislation

1) Republicans will extort.(as always)

2) Democrats will submit.(as always)

3) American middle class will lose.(as always)

August 3, 2011 at 11:28 a.m.
hambone said...

Congress goes on vacation without funding the FAA.

$1.2 billion will be lost from airline ticket taxes.

4000 FAA employees fuloughed plus 10,000 constrution workers

14,000 will not be paying income taxes, but they can draw unemployment.

Boy, our elected representatives are sharp aren't they!

August 3, 2011 at 12:28 p.m.
limric said...

I read yesterday that Obomber "urged tax reform to emerge from" his Super Cat Food Commission with a "balanced approach" in which the rich pay more taxes to achieve more deficit reduction. Obama urged Congress to pass stalled trade bills and said he wants tax cuts for the middle class and unemployment benefits extended. Quote: "'I'll be discussing additional ideas in the weeks ahead to help companies hire, invest and expand.'"

This idiotic Super Catfood Commission has been set up to fail without even discussing repeal of the Bush tax cuts. What will happen is spending cuts ONLY will be across the board. Obama, I am finally convinved, is a Romulan.

A regressive VAT MIGHT result from it, but they will do so to protect the super-rich from tax increases. They will be insufficient to offset war spending (with new wars with Iran and Syria looming large) and will continue to claw cuts out of the most economically vulnerable.

And still he is pushing "free trade" bills that means even MORE accelerated offshoring of jobs.

More unemployment benefit extensions will not help or employ the rising number of long-term unemployed (who've exhausted their maximum 99 weeks in the States that even allow that maximum--a limit that Obama will not go beyond) and are not offset by revenue increases by raising taxes on the rich.

Obomber also added, "...additional ideas in the weeks ahead to help companies hire, invest and expand" I define this as more corporate welfare tax cuts, kick-backs and similar incentives at the federal and State level that will continue to claw at revenues with no new revenue enhancement from taxing the rich or corporations. Companies typically use such incentives to move their operations from a more unionized region of the country to a non-unionized "right to work" State and then OFFSHORE when they deem it cost effective.

Republicans, abetted by a ’ Neville Obama Chamberlin’, is a prescription for a full blown Second Great Depression for those with pre-2008 incomes below $39,000 a year, and he will hurt many with incomes above.

Romulans are just not into earthings.

You Democrats had better start acting like the Tea Party, and get someone to challenge him in the primaries. NOW !!!


L4F, I gotta hand it to you. If nothing else, your post are amusing. Read OllieH's post again - and again. I hope it'll sink in. I've been wrong before though.

Your delusions have you vicariously living like the rich and believe their lies, obfuscations and you let them defraud you over and over.

August 3, 2011 at 12:54 p.m.
jimbob said...

Guns only have two enemies,rust and politicians. Alot of the tea party members have already admitted that they are a one time shot in the dark. All they wanted to do is get elected for one term so they could screw every thing up. I don't belong to either party. Till there is a Native Amercian in the white house I don't have a president. Now if you will excuse me I have to go clen my guns.

August 3, 2011 at 1:18 p.m.
hambone said...

L4F, How does Bill O'Reilly lose 43% in taxes when the highest rate is 35%?

Does he pay 8% to Murdock to keep his job?

Simple numbers: Suppose we take two typical families of 4. One has a income of $40,000 ( $23000 above the threshold for 15% bracket) One has a income of $400,000 ( $21000 above the threshold for the 35% bracket). One has a net income after taxes of $34,000 Or $8,500 per family member. The other has a net income after taxes of $260,000 or $65,000 per family member. Suppose both save 10% for retirement (which would be very unlikely for the smaller income). When they retire the 1st family's SS monthly check will be much less than the other's and their nest egg won't make near the omellete the other's will.

Who can afford to pay more taxes ?

August 3, 2011 at 1:41 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Limric said: "Pretty good Clay. Nice and ambiguous."

Hmmm. . . I think if we focus, use a little common sense, and apply a bit of deductive reasoning, we can figure out what Clay was thinking when he created today’s cartoon. To start, I think it’s reasonable for us to assume the heavy load that the two characters are carrying in the Clay’s cartoon refers to the most recent deal made by Congress. Allegedly, this new deal will get Congress on the right path, and enable them to clear up the big economic mess that Congress has created in the past decade.

As deals go, I don’t think Clay feels this new deal will clear up the big economic mess that Congress has created in the past decade. Unlike Congress, Clay is an smart guy and I suspect he probably agrees with most of the world’s economists who like Dean Baker have said over and over again: the fundamental problem facing the U.S. and European economies is the lack of sufficient demand to fully employ their workers and their productive capacity. . . if there were more demand, there would be more employment and output.

And since the new deal made by Congress doesn’t do anything to address the fundamental problems of the U.S. economy, I think it’s reasonable for us to assume the guy on the right represents the sector that will continue to carry the heavy load as a result of the new deal, particularly the middle class and unemployed Americans. As for the guy carrying the light load on the left, I suspect he represents the sector that will continue to make profits and come out big winners in spite of the big economic mess that Congress has created in the past decade. – the U.S. Congress along with their wealthy corporate/financial benefactors.

August 3, 2011 at 2:20 p.m.
mymy said...

hambone: The FAA problem is more involved. There is a subsidy issue. Subsidies per airline passenger range as high as $3,720 in Ely, Nev., to as low as $9.21 in Thief River Falls, Minn., according to the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.

The entire air service subsidy program costs about $200 million a year, roughly the amount the government lost in uncollected ticket taxes in the first week of the shutdown. The program was created after airlines were deregulated in 1978 to ensure continued service on less profitable routes to remote communities. But critics say some communities receiving subsidies are within a reasonable driving distance of a hub airport.

Another problem: The Bomb changed the rules in favor of unions reversing 75 years of precedent TO favor labor unions. Why? Political payoff for those that helped elect him.

So, there is good reason for the delay.

August 3, 2011 at 2:41 p.m.
alprova said...

MyMy wrote: "Another problem: The Bomb changed the rules in favor of unions reversing 75 years of precedent TO favor labor unions. Why? Political payoff for those that helped elect him."

Can you cite any rule that President Obama changed? Don't drop general statements and then run for the hills.

Back up what you write for once.

What EXACT rules were changed? Then cite exactly how President Obama went about changing those rules.

You're lying and you should know it, but then you're writings are typical of those who watch Fox News for their information. You're brainwashed.

I see you quoted figures taken right from a Fox News website story posted there. It figures.

August 3, 2011 at 3:08 p.m.
hambone said...

mymy, The $1.2 billion being lost would cover the subsidy for 6 years. Not to mention that the $1.2 billion is the amount just till congress comes back from vacation. I have no way of knowing how much the 14,000 people would have paid in taxes VS. how much they are getting in unemployment benefits

Heaven know when they will get around to funding the FAA.

Like I said, boy they are really sharpe!!!

August 3, 2011 at 3:18 p.m.
hambone said...

mymy, Does Chattanooga get this subsidy? It is much closer to Atlanta or Nashville that Ely NV is to a major hub.

Oh, wait, both senators from Tennessee are republicans.

August 3, 2011 at 3:28 p.m.
inthemiddle said...

al,

Not to get in the middle of your fight about rule changing but here is what I found on CNN,

Another vote is likely to follow, even though this was the third time Delta (DAL, Fortune 500) flight attendants had rejected the union. And here's another twist: The union lost that November vote even after the NMB changed the rules -- in place since the 1930s -- to require that only a majority of those who vote, not a majority of the workplace, needs to sign off on unionization.

Changing the rules is a strategy also deployed by the higher-profile National Labor Relations Board, where the President opted for a recess appointment of union lawyer Craig Becker after it became clear his confirmation would be blocked by Republicans (backed by alarmed business groups), along with a handful of Democrats. Last week, NLRB proposed sweeping new rules cutting the amount of time available to employers to make their case prior to a union vote -- an action the Chamber of Commerce rightly denounced as a "another not so cleverly disguised effort to restrict the ability of employers to express their views" during a union campaign.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/30/news/economy/obama_labor_unions.fortune/index.htm

August 3, 2011 at 6 p.m.
fairmon said...

We rarely get the full story in a 30 second sound bite. Is the FAA money discretionary spending? 74,000 laid off is just the beginning. The grants may need to be reviewed but not all stopped. Martha's vineyard where very few passengers are involved may not be necessary. Others fall in the pork barrel category but many are needed and involve commerce not just passenger convenience. I think it may be another case of we will include your unnecessary airport if you will vote to fund those that truly need it. It is considered a role of a member of congress to get all they can for their district. Corker has a how to apply for grants segment on his web site.

Memphisexile has the right concept regarding taxes. You can bet the umpteen thousands of pages in the tax codes are not to help the middle and lower income.

August 3, 2011 at 6:48 p.m.
alprova said...

inthemiddle, President Obama ran on a platform that most certainly did include allegiance to the concept of unionism, so it should be no shock to anyone that he appointed Craig Becker and others to positions in which to further that agenda.

BUT, that is not what MyMy stated. She said that Obama changed the rules. The NLRB changed the rules. THAT is what I was hoping to see MyMy come to understand and correct.

I thank you for pointing out the truth to the issue.

Details are important, and this rampant abuse by which everyone blames Obama for every single policy change that they disagree with, and that is made by those who actually are in charge of the relevant department, is out of control.

Fox News is right up there at the top of the list of those who refer to anything done by the Government that is not in accordance with the conservative philosophy, as being the policy of the President.

And MyMY is nothing but a parrot for Fox News in this forum.

August 3, 2011 at 7 p.m.
Clara said...

A local paper had a cartoon of the politicians shaking hands over the debt question. Sorry I can't give the URL because it didn't publish the cartoon on line.

One of the comments was, "I didn't begin to worry until they shook hands."

August 3, 2011 at 7:19 p.m.
chet123 said...

LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM..AUG 3 12:44PM

YOU SAID BILL O'RIELLY PAID 43% OF HIS INCOME TO TAXES.....SO THATS 43% FROM 20,000,000 WHICH LEAVE HIM 11,400,000..Hhhhhh SOUNDS GOOD TO ME....DO YOU THINK HE WILL CHANGE PLACES WITH THE MAN MAKING 170 A WEEK TO PAY LOWER PERCENTAGE OF TAXES....

MAN MAKING 170 A WEEK WILL TAKE 8,400 BEFORE TAXES A YEAR

O REILLY TAKE HOME 11 1/2 MILLIONS...WHAT ARE YOU CRYING ABOUT...YOU REALLY ARE A PROTECTOR OF RICH AND GREEDY

LIBERTARIAN WISH YOU COULD SEE HOW STUPID YOU SOUND SAYING SOMETHING THAT ONE SIDED....NOW THATS RELLY,REALLY, ONE SIDED......

BILL O REILLY CAN ONLY LIVE IN ONE HOUSE AT A TIMES AND DRIVE ONE ROLL ROYCE AT A TIME....AND YOU MAKING THIS RICH AND GREEDY MAN A VICTIM...WHILE THE OTHER MAN IS SCAPPYING TO JUST GET BY IN PAYING HIS FOOD RENTAL HOUSE, HEALTH INSURANCE ...DONT THINK HE CAN AFFORD TO BUY A CAR.....AND YOU MAKE A MAN MAKING 11 1/2 MILLIONS A VICTIM......YOU HAVE LOST YOUR ABILITY TO DISCERN.....LOL LOL I WOULD BE TOO ASHAME TO SAY SOMETHING THAT CRAZY LOL LOL LOL

August 3, 2011 at 7:28 p.m.
acerigger said...

Libertarians, born on 3rd base and thinking they hit a triple, whining 'cause they can't cross home-plate! What a joke!

August 3, 2011 at 9:14 p.m.
fairmon said...

I agree blaming Obama is out of hand as is giving him credit. It appears he appears to be in a bubble but reads prepared scripts well. Surely he isn't suffering an early on set of Alzheimer's at age 50. He did compare himself to Reagan in one of his speeches.

August 3, 2011 at 9:17 p.m.
alprova said...

MyMy wrote: "Obama isn't working!"

Well neither apparently are the Republicans elected to the House either. Not one job has been created by any of them either in the six months that they have dominated the House. And remind me how many of them were elected?

People who look to politicians or to the President for jobs in the private sector aren't the brightest people on the planet any way you look at them.

Jobs are created in the private sector according to need, and those needs are only driven by sales of whatever product or service that a business brings to market.

It's just plain moronic to blame President Obama for the lack of private sector jobs in this nation at the moment. Short of giving everyone a million dollars to spend any way they want, and we know how popular an idea that is with some people, we're going to have to depend on what we have to spend, as meager or as much as it may be, to be used to drive our economy.

August 3, 2011 at 9:38 p.m.
fairmon said...

chet123,

What percent of his income do you think the government should confiscate from O'Reilly? Another fellow making an amount similar to O'Reilly slept in his 15 year old junky car and worked part time jobs to get a college degree. He kept living frugally working two jobs and invested his earnings wisely until he had around one million. He now makes several million a year and gives over one million per year to charity. His tax bill counting local and state taxes is reported as 55%. How much more should they take from that undeserving butt? What did the fellow you used as a comparator to O'Riley that is barely scraping by do to improve his lot in life?

The problem with O'Riley and others in that category are the tax laws that enable them to significantly reduce what is reported as income or the special treatment given some sources of income. Many of the rich invest heavily in tax exempt municipal bonds and pay zero taxes on that income. They also pay only 15% on capital gains.

August 3, 2011 at 9:43 p.m.
fairmon said...

China's economic growth is slowing. They need us to get initiate another stimulus program so everyone can run out and buy imports.

Alprova, You are right on with your 9:38 post. We probably don't agree that the business tax rules need to assure all pay a fair and predictable amount on all profits without all the grants and attempts by government to manipulate and show favor.

August 3, 2011 at 9:52 p.m.
mymy said...

Al: I know you are not as bright as you think, but surely you understand the Repubs only control 1/3 of the government. Not much they can do! Anything sent to the Senate would get tabled not debated, etc. Get some better info and get you head out of the butt of the left wing media/talking points. If you don't know why the private sector is not investing and creating jobs, why should I waste my time with you. The info is out there.

August 3, 2011 at 10:46 p.m.
alprova said...

MyMy, that's a typical answer from someone who knows nothing about what they are talking about. You're a parrot and a poor one at that.

Nothing I offered above could remotely be considered "left-wing media/talking points." Every word posted is MY wording and it is nothing short of fact.

As usual, you dump a general statement into the forum and you don't care to clarify its meaning.

I'd love to read something from you that explains why the private sector is not investing and creating jobs, other than what I wrote above, which is plain as the nose on your face. Sales are down these days. When sales pick up, and orders start flowing in, jobs will be created to meet the needs of those increased sales. That's business 101.

Nothing President Obama has done or can do, can have any effect on the jobs in the private sector, good or bad. There's not a lot he can do as President that will have any demonstrable effect on private sector jobs.

People like you feel that he has a magic wand hiding in his pocket that he can whip out at a moment's notice and wave all our troubles away. I guess you feel he has lost it.

I find it laughable to read your excuse for the Republicans not creating jobs. Sensible people, who didn't vote them in, thinking their promise of jobs was hollow and empty, understand that recovery in this nation is going to take years, and that hopping from party to party is a horrible way to bring about the change needed to rectify the wrongs in this nation.

Many of us, including those that voted for them, have also taken notice of the fact that the Republicans are up to their old tricks of coddling the rich and trying to further set an ever-widening dividing line between those living the good life and those with just barely enough to survive on.

Further adding to the embarrassment of the Republican party is the fact that of late anyway, Tea Partiers are standing up against their hosting party and have been siding with Democrats in opposing important, but horribly crafted legislation.

Don't just drop in here a line stating that the "info is out there."

You back up what you write rather than offering childlike responses.

August 3, 2011 at 11:22 p.m.
fairmon said...

The fair tax proposal will never get out of committee without tremendous pressure from voters that are not likely to take the time to understand it and will be scared by politicians that do not want it and will misrepresent it along with the mega wealthy.

The fair tax proposal H.R. 25 and S.13 would generate much more revenue from the right sources including the wealthy, those that do not report income that is illegally gained or the black market. It would also improve American competitiveness and demand for American made goods and services.

Can you imagine a worker taking home 100% of their earned wages except that which they elect to save in a 401-K or paying for an employer benefit they decide to participate in? Can you imagine no need for an IRS? No 4 ft high stack of tax codes full of escapes for the wealthy? American made products and services at an average of 20% less cost? It is possible and it is a way to solve many of our economic ills.

Check it out at; fairtax.org

August 3, 2011 at 11:39 p.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "Alprova, You are right on with your 9:38 post. We probably don't agree that the business tax rules need to assure all pay a fair and predictable amount on all profits without all the grants and attempts by government to manipulate and show favor."

The only grants or attempts by Government I am aware of are those in place to help small businesses, making as much as $50 million a year. Surely we can all agree that this is an Obama and IRS Administration policy that does lend to the creation of jobs.

For instance, the following are in place for year 2010 up to 2015. These are all part of the Small Business Jobs Act of 2010 Tax Provisions.

Several of the provisions are designed to encourage investment and provide access to capital for businesses;

Sect. 2011: Temporary exclusion of 100% of gain on certain small business stock;

Sect. 2012: General business credits of eligible small businesses for 2010 carried back 5 years;

Sect. 2013: General business credits of eligible small businesses in 2010 not subject to alternative minimum tax;

Sect. 2014: Temporary reduction in S-Corporation built-in gain recognition period;

Sect. 2021: Increased expensing limitations for 2010 and 2011; certain real property treated as Code section 179 property;

Sect. 2022: Additional first-year depreciation for 50% of the basis of certain qualified property;

Sect. 2031: Increase in amount allowed as deduction for start-up expenditures in 2010, and;

Sect. 2042: Deduction for health insurance costs in computing self-employment taxes in 2010.

August 4, 2011 at 12:18 a.m.
acerigger said...

Al,shame on you!Quit trying to confuse these people with facts!

August 4, 2011 at 1:32 a.m.
limric said...

harp3339, From your August 3, 2011 at 11:39 p.m post. Re. ‘The Fair Tax’ “Can you imagine a worker taking home 100% of their earned wages except that which they elect to save in a 401-K or paying for an employer benefit they decide to participate in? Can you imagine no need for an IRS? No 4 ft high stack of tax codes full of escapes for the wealthy?”

Sounds great. And who could disagree? The income tax as it is today is corrupt and as un-American as the FED in the most profound ways. The IRS is universally loathed.

OK, let's abolish the IRS. And the income tax.

BUT, “And replace it with ...” And here’s where the trouble begins.

Over time, proposals have included replacing the graduated income tax with a flat tax, a VAT (value added tax), or some form of consumption tax. For several years, the buzz has been growing for a national sales tax. While other “abolish the IRS” reforms have languished, the national sales tax, better known as the ‘Fair Tax’, has developed legs. Many, many ordinary freedom-loving people, weary of the present outrageous system, are cheering the Fair Tax as a great improvement.

But it's not.

I have done extensive research into the pro’s and con’s of the Fair Tax, and found the con’s FAR OUTWEIGH the pro’s. With the limited space here, I’ll just say the FairTax is not only not an improvement. It is UnFair, dangerous, and a disaster in the making. You think nothing could be worse than the graduated income tax? I can virtually guarantee you that, after five years of the FairTax, you'd be looking back with nostalgia on the days when Americans had to put up only with the IRS and the income tax. If you want smaller government, then don't spend your time thinking of “better” ways to feed big government. If you want freedom, don't fall for ploys that simply enable to government to find new routes into your pocket and your life.

Imposition of a national sales tax will inflict the same kind of long-term damage to our society that was inflicted by imposition of the income tax, the Federal Reserve and the adoption of their fiat currency. And it will be coming at a time when our economy is too shaky to absorb one more such blow.

August 4, 2011 at 8:37 a.m.
Sailorman said...

limric said:

"If you want smaller government, then don't spend your time thinking of “better” ways to feed big government. If you want freedom, don't fall for ploys that simply enable to government to find new routes into your pocket and your life."

This

August 4, 2011 at 8:58 a.m.
fairmon said...

Limric,

The fair tax would only be worse if our elected elite massaged it the way they have the current codes.

August 4, 2011 at 9:22 a.m.
fairmon said...

Alprove,

Good point. It would be good for the economy is those businesses meeting the small business criteria were exempt from taxes if they employed enough people to qualify for a tax exemption. I was thining about the many corporate lop holes. Especially the largest bankers and brokers.

August 4, 2011 at 9:27 a.m.
chet123 said...

MYMY...I SEE YOU GET YOUR INFORMANTION FROM FOX LINK LOL LOL LOL LOL BUSTED! LOL LOL LOL...LEARN HOW TO THINK FOR YOURSELF....WE HAVE GROWN-UP CONVERSATION HERE ....NO WANDER YOU ARE SO MESSED UP IN THE HEAD....FOX NEWS(RUPERT MURDOX) LOL LOL LO

August 4, 2011 at 9:28 a.m.
chet123 said...

THERE GOES LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM SHOWING HIS TRUE BUTT....THATS RIGHT LIBERTARIAN....LET EVERYBODY KNOW WHATS REALLY DRIVING YOU LOL LOL LOL...THIS DUDE IS LIKE SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL....NEVER MAKES SENSE LOL LOL LOL...ALWAYS CREATING A BOOGIE MAN LOL LOL LOL...LOVE TO USE THE WORDS SOCIALIST,LIBERAL,COMMUNIST LOL LOL LOL..Boooooooo! LOL LOL LOL ...Boooooo!LOL LOL LOL LOL HEY LIBERTARIAN....WHO DID GEORGE W BUSH BORROW 800 BILLIONS DOLLARS FROM TO FIGHT THE WAR.....AND WHO IS OUR LARGEST CREDITOR....HOW ABOUT COMMUNIST RED CHINA...BINGO! LOL LOL LOL LOL...I PERFER A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT....BUT FOR SOMEONE LIKE YOU LEARN WHATS GOING ON AND DONT BE SO EAGER TO MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS.LOL LOL LOL LOL GROW-UP OLD MAN..YOU BEEN BETRAYED BY THE PEOPLE YOU TRUSTED LOL LOL..I KNOW YOU ARE AN OLD FART LIVING IN THE PAST....BUT WHEN THE U.S. OPEN UP TRADE WITH CHINA(FOR CHEAP LABOR AND LARGE PROFIT FOR THE RICH AND GREEDY)THEY SOLD US OUT ...THE COMMUNIST CHINESE ARE LAUGHING AT US...THANKS TO DUMB BUTT LIKE YOU LOL LOL

August 4, 2011 at 9:39 a.m.
chet123 said...

LOL LOL LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM....KEEP PROTECTING THE RICH AND GREEDY LOL LOL LOL

August 4, 2011 at 9:46 a.m.
mymy said...

Every time I hear Harry Reid speak I cannot help but think the man has a problem upstairs. Here's a litle humor to make your day:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1092915018001

Chet: we are being laughed by the world for a lot of reasons, but at the time it is mostly because of The Bomb and company. Can't wait for you to scream your garbage with the fingers. LOL LOL LOL back at ya! OH, by the way look in the mirro when your screaming. Your descriptions more accurately describes the left.

August 4, 2011 at 10:28 a.m.
chet123 said...

HELLO HARP!....WITH ALL DUE RESPECT HARP....THAT'S A STORY-BOOK EXAMPLE HARP BUT ITS NOT REALITY...NOT MANY PEOPLE RISE TO POWER IN THAT MATTER....OUT OF 300 MILLIONS MAYBE A HAND FULL IF THAT MANY....BILL O REILLY TRULY DIDNT COME TO POWER IN THAT MATTER....ITS NOTHING THAT HE, RUSH LIMBAUGH AND MANY OTHERS DID TO DESERVE THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY...YOU KNOW IT AND I DO TOO...THOSE GUYS ARE BANK ROLL BY PEOPLE LIKE RUPERT MURDOCK AND OTHER RICK AND GREEDY PEOPLE....EVEN WITH PROFESSIONAL BALL PLAYER WHO MAKES MULI-MILLION DOLLARS(BY MILKING THE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE WITH HIGH COST TICKETS OR ADVERTISEMENT THAT PASS COST TO COSUMER)...THEY ARE OVER PAID........THE WAY OUR SYSTEMS WORK IS WHAT EVER IS PAID TO ONE INDIVDUAL IS SIPHON FRON ANOTHER SEGMENT OR GROUP OF PEOPLE.....MOST RICH AND GREEDY ARE ACTUALLY LAZY.LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN, MOST RICH AND GREEDY PEOPLE ARE LAZY....SOME JOBS ARE WORTH THEIR PAID.....EXAMPLE...MAN WHO INVENTED CURE FOR POLIO, INVENTORS OF PRODUCTS,,,GREAT SCIENCTIST,ECT..IRONICALLY MOST OF THESE GREAT MEN RECEIVE MODERATE BENEFITS LOL LOL LOL..BUT REILLY DONT MAKE ANYTHING, HAVENT INVENTED ANYTHING.....HIS JUST A PARSITE TO SOCIETY.....ANOTHER EXAMPLE ARE HEDGEFUNDS MANAGERS...THEY MAKE BILLIONS AND THEY ARE A PARSITE TO U.S ECONOMY BECAUSE THEY CUT THE WORKING FORCE......I CAN GO ON FOR HOURS HARP....BUT THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX....THIS COUNTRY IS EATING ITS OWN....LOL LOL LOL WE WILL NEVER GET OUT OF THIS LOW EMPLOYMENT UNTIL THE COUNTRY CHANGE ITS MIND-SET..UNDER GEORGE BUSH THERE WERE 15,000 LOBBYIST...PRESENTLY THERE ARE 12000 LOBBYIST.THEY ARE THERE TO GET AN ADVANTAGE FOR THERE RICH CLIENTS SIPHONING TAXES PAYER MONEY AND TO GET AN EDGE(THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE ANTI-GOVERNMENT)..A DEDUCTION OF 3,000 BUT STILL TOO MANY......NAFTA...WAS ONE OF THE DUMBEST THING THIS COUNTRY HAVE EVER DID...AND POLITICAIN DONT ACKNOWLEDGE OR ADMIT IT ...LOL LOL REALLY AMAZING!

August 4, 2011 at 10:30 a.m.
LibDem said...

harp3339 and limric: A radical and rational revision to our tax code is due and I'm willing to look at FairTax as a possibility.

However, for many decades, legislators have created tax code but ducked responsibility by blaming IRS. If you start discussion of tax revision with a promise to close IRS, you've bought the emotional rather than rational response.

August 4, 2011 at 10:33 a.m.
chet123 said...

SORRY MYMY...I DONT READ ANY OF YOUR PROPAGANDA LINK FROM FOX...MAYBE YOU THE ONE THAT NEED A SELF-EXAMINATION....ITS COMMON KNOWLEDEGE TO 90% OF ADULTS KNOW THAT FOX IS A TOOL OF RUPERT MURDOX....HERE YOU ARE USING FOX LINKS AS A REFERENCE LOL LOL LOL NOW THATS A JOKE......ITS ONE THING BEING STUPID.....BUT BEING STUPID AND NOT KNOWING IT IS A TRAGIC WINK! WINK! LOL LOL LOL

August 4, 2011 at 10:36 a.m.
limric said...

harp3339 said, "The fair tax would only be worse if our elected elite massaged it the way they have the current codes."

There are a lot of reasons why the Fair Tax is bad on its own without political intervention.

EXAMPLE: The national sales tax will be subject to political manipulation in even more direct ways than the income tax. Let's say that Congress or some powerful regulatory agency decides that fatty foods or sugar or potato chips are bad for you – wham! Suddenly there might a 200 percent tax on those items.

Government won't have to ban firearms; they'll just place a 500 percent sales tax on them. Or a 1,000 percent sales tax on ammo. Cigarettes? Imported clothing? SUVs? Given the eternal greed (and corruption) of government, and the unquenchable meddling of social engineers, we'll soon have custom tax levels for them all, constantly calculated and adjusted by the science of the lobbyist of the day.

FairTax proponents talk about the tax being self-limiting; when it gets too high, people stop buying. While they praise the limiting effect that might have on government, ignored is the damage that a too-high tax might have on the unfortunate industries or individuals that get hit with it – a problem that's built into the tax even in its initial form, and which becomes Draconian once politicians realize they can use the sales tax as a club or a threat.

Likelihood: Probable.

August 4, 2011 at 11:05 a.m.
mymy said...

Well, I guess I'm not by myself as most people watch Fox News in this country and around the world. Like I said look in the mirror when you scream!

August 4, 2011 at 11:07 a.m.
limric said...

mymy,

FOX news IS NOT watched by most people around the world. Only those that need someone to think for them.

Your statement is proof positive of the effects of defunding public education. Bearing a new type of participant...in the new IDIOCRACY.

Welcome to your "Brave New World"

August 4, 2011 at 11:23 a.m.
mymy said...

Well, one has to be brave in the Obama World! I certainly can't count on an R or a D to take care of me.

I got my education before the system went to hell in a hand basket. How that happened is another debate that will never be resolved or the problems reversed/solved. Money is not the answer.

And to think I grew up with a radical Democratic father! Sure would be interesting to know if he would still be seeing it their way today.

August 4, 2011 at 11:49 a.m.
Momus said...

L4F wrote- "I hate the term "shared sacrifice," there is no such a thing! I work for me! I sacrifice for no one!" 

Don't worry L4F, they sacrificed for you.

Staff Sgt. Patrick R. Dolphin, 29, of Moscow, Pa., Sgt. Dennis E. Kancler, 26, of Brecksville, Ohio, and Sgt. Christopher M. Wrinkle, 29, of Dallastown, Pa.

August 4, 2011 at 12:46 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Woody said: “I wish I could say that was funny..oh, how I wish I could say that was funny.”

I agreed, Woody. But, unfortunately, it’s getting worse. I just read an interesting article by Russ Feingold about the power of this new "super committee." The potential is really unsettling. Indeed, I'm beginning to fully understand that historical slogan – “No Taxation Without Representation.” Feingold focuses on Social Security, and I'm betting the "super committee" will do the same:

“This week's deal to raise the debt ceiling should remove any doubt about the power corporate interests have over our government. The deal, hammered out by the president and Republican congressional leaders, places the burden of reducing our long-term budget problems squarely on average Americans, while the wealthiest individuals and corporations are given a free pass. But the deal poses a larger threat. A provision in the agreement creates an appointed "Super Committee" in Congress that could circumvent normal rules and slash cherished programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

"How could this happen? Prior to this week's debt agreement, it's been extremely difficult to cut Social Security benefits, because doing so required 60 votes to overcome an almost certain filibuster in the Senate. . . .

Yet the so-called Super Committee, which will be appointed by congressional leaders in both parties to consider additional budget cuts, will enjoy authority that no other entity or special legislative process has ever had: it will have the power to propose Social Security reductions that are guaranteed an up-or-down vote in the Senate, and therefore can be adopted by a simple majority. And unlike most measures in the Senate, the Super Committee's recommendations related to Social Security will not be subject to unlimited debate - a standard protection against drastic action. Further, no amendments will be allowed. Make no mistake, those who crafted and agreed to the Super Committee were well aware of this and there can be no doubt Republicans plan to take full advantage.

So ultimately, if the Super Committee's recommendations propose cuts to Social Security, the only means to block them would be to strike down the entire Super Committee bill. But there's a dangerous trapdoor - failing to enact the overall Super Committee bill would trigger automatic across-the-board cuts that will be strongly opposed by powerful constituencies.

In short, unless congressional leaders appoint progressives willing to stand up to moneyed interests, the Super Committee will be nothing less than a chopping block for Social Security.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russ-feingold/social-securitys-biggest_b_917419.html?ir=Yahoo

August 4, 2011 at 1:35 p.m.
chet123 said...

MYMY...you say most people.....boy are you blind....see why you think the way you do....did you know Fox is about to come under an investigation????.....listen my man....Rupert Murdoch own Fox and he is an Australian who have a wife 40 yrs younger than him who was born in Communist Red China lol lol lol he filling voidness for the hate market...and uneducated people as yourself is eating it up....really amazing..lol lol...most people are not that stupid...sadly to say too many like you are......YOU ARE A PRIME CANDIDATE FOR A CULT FOLLOWING.LOL LOL LOL

August 4, 2011 at 2:41 p.m.
chet123 said...

LIMRIC....DID YOU HEAR MYMY SAY MOST PEOPLE WATCH FOX? LOL LOL LOL...MYMY SAID HE GOT HIS EDUCATION BEFORE THE SYSTEM WENT TO HELL LOL LOL LOL...MYMY..WHAT EDUCATION? LOL LOL ..USING FOX FOR REFERENCE LOL LOL ..MYMY SOMEONE BAMBOOZLE YOU IN THINKING YOU HAVE AN EDUCATION LOL LOL....MYMY YOU NEED TO GO TO AN ACCREDITED COLLEGE LOL LOL LOL

August 4, 2011 at 2:54 p.m.
chet123 said...

SEE MYMY GONE HOME LOL LOL...MYMY THINK FOX IS UNBIAS FAIR AND BALANCE AND MOST PEOPLE WATCH FOX LOL LOL LOL...HOW CAN YOU HAVE AN INTELLIGENT CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE WHO STILL BELEIVE IN SANTA CLAUS, EASTER BUNNY AND FOX NEWS......LOL LOL...REALLY AMAZING

August 4, 2011 at 3 p.m.
chet123 said...

I'LL BE BACK LATER...SEE ALL THE REPUBLICANS ARE HIDING FROM ME LOL LOL

August 4, 2011 at 3:02 p.m.
fairmon said...

Limric,

At least political manipulation and abuse would be evident to anyone making a purchase. Today they do it and hide their sins from the consumer that is paying for their manipulation. It is evident we will never agree on this issue which is the way the system works. Thanks for your response. We are all have to pay more taxes and probably get less from the government since there is not enough among the wealthy to bale our behind out of this economic quagmire.

August 4, 2011 at 5:37 p.m.
chet123 said...

HARP....WELL I WOULD SAY IT NOT ENOUGH...IF YOU FACTOR IN THE RICH AND GREEDY WITH MAJOR CORPORATIONS...YOU WILL BE LOOKING AT 4 MAYBE 5 TRILLIONS DOLLARS,,,,COMMUNIST RED CHINA WHO IS OUR LARGEST CREDITOR WOULD DO A LITTLE SHAKE DOWN LOL LOL....BUT AMERICAN ARE GOOD CHRISTIAN PEOPLE WHO LIVE BY ANOTHER SET OF PRINCIPLES...WE DO THE RIGHT THING...GOD BLESS AMERICA AND THE GOOD DEMOCRATS OF THIS COUNTRY

August 5, 2011 at 10:21 a.m.
fairmon said...

chet123,

You take 100% of the wealthiest incomes and the budget don't balance. The question you didn't answer and like a politician danced around it what % of all those like O'Riley do you think they shoud pay in taxes? Your 4-5 trillion conclusion indicates like a lot of people you don't grasp how much a trillion is.

August 5, 2011 at 9:38 p.m.
chet123 said...

HARP3339.....YOU SAY I DONT GASP HOW MUCH A TRILLION IS....MY GOOD FRIEND I SAY YOU DONT GASP HOW MUCH A TRIILION IS....LET ME GIVE YOU A HINT...

1).ITS ENOUGH TO PAY RUSH LIMBAUGH 60 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR TO TELL A LIE.....YOU DONT GET THAT KIND OF MONEY TELLING THE TRUTH....HE IS A PROPAGANDA MACHINE FOR THE REPUBLICAN...

2). ITS ENOUGH TO FLOOD THE RADIO AIR WAYS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WITH REPUBLICAN LIES

3). IT ENOUGH TO BUY -OFF REPUBLICAN CONGRSS , SENATORS, AND GEORGE W. BUSH

4). ITS ENOUGH TO PROVIDE 12,000 LOBBYIST IN WASHING D.C.

5).ITS ENOUGH TO BUY THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH AND A LOT OTHERS DOLLARS CHASING PREACHERS

6).ITS ENOUGH TO BUY THE BALANCING POWER OF THE SUPREME COURT(I.E.CLARENCE THOMAS)

7). ITS ENOUGH TO FIX AN ELECTION AND SHAVE DEMOCRATIC VOTER

OH...THE QUESTION IS NOT HOW MUCH I KNOW ABOUT A TRILLION DOLLARS IS...BUT I'M AFRAID THAT YOU DONT HAVE A CLUE MY FRIEND........CORPORATE AMERICAN AND THE RICH AND GEEDY CAN SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY IF THEY DONT GET THEIR WAY.....WE ARE ABOUT TO LOOSE THE CONSTITUTION AND DEMOCRACY UNLESS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CHALLENGE THOSE TRYING TO REMOVE DEMOCRACY AND INVOKE OLIGARCHY GOVERNMENT(WHERE A FEW RICH RUN EVERYTHING)....

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT HARP....YOU DONT SEE THE BIG PICTURE MY FRIEND.......YOU THINK "IT US AGAINST THEM".......YOU CANT SEE THAT YOU ARE A "THEM"

August 8, 2011 at 1:10 p.m.
chet123 said...

THIS IS RON REAGAN LEGACY.......THE HISTORIAN WILL EXPOSE REAGAN...HIS ANTI-UNION STANCE...HIS FLAWED TRICKLE DOWN THEORY....HIS LIE ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT WAS THE PROBLEM.....THE OLD MAN PLAYED A SCRIPT WRITTEN IN HOLLYWOOD

August 8, 2011 at 1:18 p.m.
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