published Sunday, January 9th, 2011, updated Jan. 8th, 2011 at 4:49 p.m.

UPDATE: Surgeons say Arizona congresswoman Giffords showing positive signs

TUCSON, Ariz. — Doctors treating wounded Rep. Gabrielle Giffords provided an optimistic update Sunday about her chances for survival, saying they are “very, very encouraged” by her ability to respond to simple commands along with their success in controlling her bleeding.

Surgeons said a bullet went through Giffords’ head on the left side of the brain, but she is still able to respond nonverbally to commands such as squeezing a hand or showing two fingers. They credited several reasons for her survival, including good luck and the fact that paramedics got her to surgeons quickly — in under 40 minutes.

“This is about as good as it is going to get,” said Dr. Peter Rhee, a trauma surgeon. “When you get shot in the head and the bullet goes through your brain, the chances of you living is very small and the chances of you waking up and actually following commands is even much smaller than that. Hopefully it will stay that way.”

Surgeons worked to reduce pressure from swelling in her head by removing bone fragments, and they also removed a small amount of badly damaged brain. Giffords cannot speak because she is on a ventilator.

Dr. Michael Lemole of the University Medical Center in Tucson would not speculate on her degree of recovery. “We talk about recovery in months to years,” he said.

The medical prognosis came as authorities investigated the motivation of a gunman in an attempted assassination of the three-term Democrat and the killing of six people, including a federal judge, an aide to Giffords and a 9-year-old girl who was born on Sept. 11, 2001.

Mourners crammed into the tiny sanctuary of Giffords’ synagogue in Tucson to pray that she quickly recovered. Outside the hospital, candles flickered at a makeshift memorial. Signs read “Peace + love are stronger,” “God bless America and “We love you, Gabrielle.” People also laid down bouquets of flowers, American flags and pictures of Giffords.

Authorities said Giffords, 40, was targeted at a public gathering by a man with a semiautomatic weapon around 10 a.m. Saturday outside a busy Tucson supermarket. Fourteen people were injured.

He also fired at her district director and shot indiscriminately at staffers and others standing in line to talk to the congresswoman, said Mark Kimble, a communications staffer for Giffords.

“He was not more than three or four feet from the congresswoman and the district director,” Kimble said, describing the scene as “just complete chaos, people screaming, crying.”

One of the victims was Christina-Taylor Green, who was a member of the student council at her local school and went to the event because of her interest in government. She is the grandaughter of former Philadelphia Phillies manager Dallas Green.

She was born on 9/11 and featured in a book called “Faces of Hope” that chronicled one baby from each state born on the day terrorists killed nearly 3,000 people.

The fact that Christina’s life ended in tragedy was especially tragic to those who knew her. “Tragedy seems to have happened again,” said the author of the book, Christine Naman. “In the form of this awful event.”

Police say the shooter was in custody, and was identified by people familiar with the investigation as Jared Loughner, 22. U.S. officials who provided his name to the AP spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release it publicly.

His motivation was not immediately known, but Dupnik described him as mentally unstable and possibly acting with an accomplice.

His office said a man possibly associated with Loughner (pronounced LAWF’-ner) who was near the scene was being sought. The man, who was photographed by a security camera, was described as white with dark hair and 40-45 years old.

The assassination attempt left Americans questioning whether divisive politics had pushed the suspect over the edge.

Giffords faced frequent backlash from the right over her support of the health care reform last year, and had her office vandalized the day the House approved the landmark measure.

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik lashed out at what he called an excessively “vitriolic” atmosphere in the months leading up to the rampage as he described the chaos of the day.

The sheriff said the rampage ended only after two people tackled the gunman.

“He was definitely on a mission,” according to event volunteer Alex Villec, former Giffords intern.

A shaken President Barack Obama called the attack “a tragedy for our entire country.”

Attorney General Eric Holder said in a statement Sunday that FBI Director Robert Mueller was traveling to Arizona to help coordinate the investigation.

In a brief statement Sunday morning, House Speaker John Boehner said flags on the House side of the Capitol in Washington will be flown at half staff to honor Giffords’ slain aide, Gabe Zimmerman. Boehner says normal House business this week is postponed to focus on any necessary actions in the shooting aftermath.

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dude_abides said...

Now I know where you get your news! Fox was the only national organization reporting Ms. Giffords killed when your first report was filed. Now all reports say she's battling for her life. Fox and TFP foaming at the mouth.

January 8, 2011 at 3:26 p.m.
anniebelle said...

I hope the right-wing inciters of violence are happy now. Mama Moron from Alaska: don't retreat -- reload! The whole gang at Faux news is constantly calling out their knuckledragging audience to do this very thing. Well, I hope they're all happy -- especially that hater Glen Beck who calls for this type of violence nightly and daily on his stupid radio show. And the governor, Jan Brewer, just signed a law to allow concealed weapons WITHOUT a permit. The right wing in this country is pure evil!

January 8, 2011 at 4:41 p.m.
anniebelle said...

well, then she just made it easier for them to go about undetected in our midst -- I follow your logic, NOT!

January 8, 2011 at 4:54 p.m.
librul said...

Never forget - Representative Giffords is one of the democratic members of the United States Congress who was 'targeted' with an actual crosshair graphic on Sarah Palin's website in 2010. It was Sharon Angle who said 'people are looking to second ammendment remedies' to their concerns, but said nothing to condemn such idiocy. It was Michele Bachman who said she 'wanted people in Minnesota armed and dangerous.'

I hope those airhead witches wake up at every 'bump in the night' for the rest of their miserable lives. All the empty rhetoric and 'words of condolence' coming from the republicans and their media loudmouths, who ultimately stand responsible for fomenting this tragedy, are just that - empty words. With this, they have been proven to be enemies of our country and they should be treated as such.

If no action is taken against them and their shooter, America is sooooo over.

January 8, 2011 at 4:59 p.m.
anniebelle said...

And how would you know no one else "was packing heat"? Were you there? Whatever, inciting violence from the rightwing is out of control in this country and as citizens it is our responsibility to call these inciters out and string them up as murderers because they are the ones leading these unstable idiots out from under their rocks.

January 8, 2011 at 5:12 p.m.
enufisenuf said...

Left wing, right wing, who cares, piss the people off and this is what happens. WHat makes our government so perfect that we should ignore what they have done to the people. Tuff stuff, just like cops that is the risk thay take.

January 8, 2011 at 6:46 p.m.
EaTn said...

This shooter was neither a right nor left wing nut....he appears to just be a warped individual who unfortunately was able to secure weapon and use it to further his own sick purpose.

January 8, 2011 at 7:31 p.m.
librul said...

Funny - I don't see anything that points "left". He's obviously a fringe religious nut but I don't see that as having much in common with liberal ideology. There'll be more to learn, I'm sure, but nobody on the American left has been harping about using guns to push a political agenda like aforementioned whack jobs on the extreme right.

Regardless of the political direction he came from, it's a sure thing that bin Laden blew hummus out of his nose when he heard that an American terrorist had shot a member of America's House of Representatives on American soil.

January 8, 2011 at 7:32 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

Sarah Palin's "Target Map" almost claims it's first victim.

January 8, 2011 at 7:52 p.m.
dude_abides said...

He's got tea party written all over him. Disaffected, not sure how or where to express his vitriol. Messianic complex. But with a dash of bigotry evident. Teabook text party!

January 8, 2011 at 8:23 p.m.
EaTn said...

Just watched the Pima co. sheriff's briefing-- at age 74 I think he should be nominated for man of the year somewhere. Speaking his mind about the vitroil of radio and tv mouthpieces should make these folks reflect on their filthy mouths.

January 8, 2011 at 8:46 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

BTW Wildman - The gunman was disarmed and subdued by unarmed citizens.

January 8, 2011 at 9:39 p.m.
rolando said...

Pity someone didn't shoot the rabid dog down instead of tackling him. Would have saved Arizona a bundle of money trying and imprisoning him for the rest of his life. I guess he WILL get his free bread after all...on OUR dime.

And who cares what his politics are...he is a killer, plain and simple. I say Judge Roy Bean him and be done with it.

But no, he will be adjudged a nutcase unable to recognize right from wrong and sent to an asylum where he will be molly-coddled for the next 50 years or so.

January 8, 2011 at 9:52 p.m.
rolando said...

anniebelle, you and others here are trying to deny me and others our Constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear arms...

So how about I return the favor regarding your [and my] Constitutional right to free speech and tell you to shut up.

Didn't like that a bit, did you? Can't say as I blame you.

Now you know how the law abiding gun owners feel about YOUR denial of THEIR rights.

January 8, 2011 at 9:57 p.m.
rolando said...

dude_abides, you're a lightweight dude.

At 2:14 EST today, NPR, FoxNews, and CNN erroneously reported Sen Gifford dead from a gunshot wound.

At 2:50 EST today, KOLD News 13 accurately reported her still alive.

January 8, 2011 at 10:08 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Wildman said: “The dude that pulled the bullet was a far left wing nut, go to his Facebook page.”

According to a Huffington Post article that focuses on the guy’s YouTube postings, he appears to an anti-government zealot who is obsessed with the currency issue, which sounds more like the rhetoric coming from the Libertarians and/or the Republican Tea Party:

“In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I can’t trust the current government because of the ratifications: the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar,” he writes in one video posting. “No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver! No! I won’t trust in God!”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/jared-lee-loughner-gabrielle-giffords-shooter_n_806243.html

January 8, 2011 at 10:09 p.m.
rolando said...

And one of the shooter's subduers was shot for his trouble, seasmoke...pity he wasn't armed...he might have avoided getting shot.

January 8, 2011 at 10:13 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

Rolando - No one is trying to take away your right to bear arms, just people like this psycho. There are nine classes of prohibited persons who cannot legaly possess firearms and due to the fact that this guy could not get in the army, lets me know he was in one of those classes. I would have loved for a trained, qualified armed citizen to have been able to have stopped this massacre before it started but the unarmed ones that were there did their best. And if you think that you could have done better then maybe you should get from in front of your computer and "stand the post." Law Enforcement could use your help. Shooting at a paper target is a lot different than shooting at a moving target that's shooting back.

Yes, you have the right to bear arms, but do you deserve it?

January 8, 2011 at 10:30 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Forgive me rolando. I went looking for verification of the TFP report, and only Fox was still reporting the same erroneous, stale news as TFP. So what is your secret to staying so keenly aware of every news item and it's exact time of release, got talk radio humming right next to your Hornady 366 Auto Progressive Reloader? Tea Party = GOP = rolando

January 8, 2011 at 10:47 p.m.
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January 9, 2011 at 4:28 a.m.
anniebelle said...

rolando, you are a complete fool! I have my own gun and will use it to protect myself against crazies that listen to this rhetoric from the right, yes the right wing zealots, Palin, Beck, O'Reilly, etc. who call out these crazies on their daily hate fests. I don't care if he was left, right or upside down -- these are the ones your gang of "2nd Amenndment remedy" nuts call out daily on their "entertainment" shows designed to lure in the ones that will do their dirty work for them. You are just an idiot, rolando.

January 9, 2011 at 5:23 a.m.
wallyworld said...

The trouble with punks like rolando is they've seen too many movies and t.v. shows and have the false notion that real life is like their mindnumbingly dumb 'reality' shows. Nobody is trying to take a sane, reasonable person's firearm from them, so stop with the b.s. rolando, I don't think there are any kids on this site that might possibly believe any of your perverted thoughts.

January 9, 2011 at 5:48 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

The ultra right wing ran ads about JFK saying "Wanted for Treason," but a communist murdered JFK for being a gung-ho Cold Warrior. (The other guy Oswald had taken a shot at was a general too conservative for the Army.) Can we, as Jonah Goldberg at National Review suggested, take a day or so to mourn the dead, pray for the wounded and the survivors and the shaken, comfort them if we know them...and figure out who really needs to be stoned before we throw any more stones?

Nice to know that if anyone tries to murder any politicians around here, rolando and anniebell will stand shoulder to shoulder to shoot down the assassin.

January 9, 2011 at 6:41 a.m.
anniebelle said...

No, Andrewbore, you have it all wrong as usual. I have never taken my gun off my property except to go to the firing range to practice. I have never felt the need to take it to the shopping mall, political rallies or other such places. Get your facts straight, Andrew, before you show any more of your ignorance.

January 9, 2011 at 6:45 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

Some points that need to be made here...Our rhetoric needs to be toned down,the vitriol that has been spread out needs to stop, and a CIVILIZED discourse commence. We are going to disagree on things folks....nobody is going to completely agree 100% on every subject. But when you suggest to reload when you disagree with someone... you are going to get nutcases that is going to take it literally. When the disagreement descends to name-calling, it is time to dial it back.

January 9, 2011 at 8:06 a.m.
acerigger said...

Anyone who has never been in a situation(other than military or L-E)where shots were fired in anger,cannot say with any certainty what they would do or how they would react, so, "armchair cowboys", get a grip. Walking around with a weapon can cause a false sense of security.

January 9, 2011 at 8:38 a.m.
sd said...

Right now they're saying his writings and behavior suggest schizophrenia. I wouldn't expect any coherent or logical ideology--he may hold extremist views in both directions. He's clearly deluded and paranoid.

rolando, I wonder about sentencing myself.

The Supreme Court blocked the death penalty for a schizophrenic in 2007 (Panetti v. Quarterman) on the grounds that the man was too delusional to understand why the state was putting him to death, therefore, the sentence had no meaning. That doesn't seem to be the case here. Add the fact that this was an attempted assassination and a spree shooting that killed many people, including a child, and you've got situation that is unprecedented, as far as I can tell.

January 9, 2011 at 8:57 a.m.
Oz said...

Taking away guns does not take away the motivation and intent of the criminal mind. The shooter could have easily used a car or baseball bat to carry out his plan.

January 9, 2011 at 9:22 a.m.
rick1 said...

First of all there is not a sherd of evidence that connects Palin to this crime, and polticial ads with crosshairs are not even close to proof of anything as not only did Palin use this but so did the DNC and the Daily KOSS.

I know the Pima County Sheriff was going on about some radio personalities whose vitriol hatred and bigorty, has a bad influence on menatly unstable people "enflaming the American public" he said. But the Sheriff was against Az immigation law, calling the law racist, disgusting and stupid and said he wouldn't enforce it. I guess he believes vitriol is only expressed by conservatives.

Remember those who believe government is the solution to all of our problems and believe in more government control are the ones who call for the use of coercion and if needed, force to make others comply with their wishes.

January 9, 2011 at 10:20 a.m.
enufisenuf said...

Annebull, your one of the biggest double talking idiots on the net. I suppose you buy a car to keep it in the garage and ride the bus? I bet your ancestors were loyalists in the 1700 cause you still have the same un american mantality as those idiots did. Get your head out of the sand and accept reality, not the liberal fantasy you suckle to.

January 9, 2011 at 10:46 a.m.
anniebelle said...

and what 'mantality' is that you're sporting?

January 9, 2011 at 11:01 a.m.
yaffay said...

rick1 - Please back up your statement that the DNC had a site where they targeted political opponents with crosshair graphics as Palin did in her "Target America" post. Just because you say it doesnt' make it so.

January 9, 2011 at 11:17 a.m.
rick1 said...

It is crazy to say Palin's target list actually means that she hoped someone(s) would grab a gun and off the congressmen she wanted defeated. Just like with the DNC logo that had a circle with a D in the center of it which looked like a target or even the logo for Target stores, does it mean they are advocating gun violence? No

January 9, 2011 at 11:43 a.m.
anniebelle said...

enoughistoomuch: You are so typical of the knuckledraggers that inhabit this country you are a disgusting specimen of what passes for discourse in this country. You and your gang of unamerican zealots would be waiving your nazi flag behind imperialistic fascist George III.

January 9, 2011 at 11:50 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Exactly, indian, I have owned a gun my entire adult life and so has my husband, but we have not felt the need to "pack heat" as we go about our daily lives and certainly not the inclination to shoot someone not attacking us or invading our property. We are what you call 'responsible' gun owners. No one, left or right, has advocated taking guns away from legally registered owners, just the crazies that have no business owning such a weapon. This is all another 'myth' expounded upon by the NRA, RIGHT WING propagandists trying to get the ire up of not too bright and unstable people.

January 9, 2011 at 12:29 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Indian said: “Don't blame this shooting on guns, it is people to blame.”

And socially irresponsible people like Sarah Palin appear to go to out of their way to promote violence and the use of physical force through their political rhetoric:

“bombing through the press” “never retreat, instead RELOAD!” “shoot with accuracy; aim high” “set your sights on next season’s targets!” “From the shot across the bow” “your leaders will be in the enemy’s crosshairs” “you must execute strong defensive tactics”

http://www.syracuse.com/have-you-heard/index.ssf/2010/03/sarah_palin_steps_up_the_rheto.html

January 9, 2011 at 12:55 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Rolando,

Thank you for your many years of service manning the wall between polite society and the criminal wastelands.

It is a shame that there were no "good guys" in the immediate area when this situation began. It might have been resolved much more quickly, and without so much bloodshed.


Since Godwin's Law has already been breached...

The Nazi's fascist ideology supported:

National government control of education. National government control of all manufacturing. National government control of healthcare. National government control of all media. National government control of banking. Government administered abortion, on demand.(With no age limit on the aborted life) A total ban on all firearms for private citizens.

Yup, sounds just like the "right-wing" folks in the Tea Party.


I especially liked the way the shooter's posts at DKOS got scrubbed as soon as his identity was made public.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/01/is_daily_kos_to_blame_for_giff.html

The man was a nutcase. He was also, by his own written statements, politically active in support of a Democrat candidate. When she betrayed his ideology by voting for someone other than Pelosi to lead the House minority, and continued to support immigration law enforcement, he lost it.

But it's been fun watching the left try to cover their tracks and disassociate themselves from their own nut.

January 9, 2011 at 12:58 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"No one, left or right, has advocated taking guns away from legally registered owners, just the crazies that have no business owning such a weapon."

You mean like in D.C., and Chicago, among other places, pre-Heller, where no one, save government functionaries were allowed to have a functioning firearm on hand? Not even in their own homes?

I'm sure no one ever advocated that. Those laws just showed up one day out of no-where.

You really should study up on the gun-control groups operating in this nation. If you did, you wouldn't be so quick to post ignorant things like the above quote.

Also, I'm not sure what "legally registered owners" are. There exists no national requirement for registering firearms, other than NFA items. The state of TN does not require the registration of weapons either.

You say you have firearms in the household. Where did you register them? Do you know what you're talking about? I don't think you do.

January 9, 2011 at 1:14 p.m.
acerigger said...

If anyone needs to be told to tone down their rhetoric, it's John McCain and his former running mate, Sarah Palin. Sorry , but “both sides” don't have a 24/7 hate television network and hate radio spreading lies and whipping up the fear and anger in their audience week after week. And there aren't any Democratic politicians out there doing what Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann and company have done with repeating eliminationist rhetoric at every opportunity.

No one does know what this man's motivation was in this shooting yet, but when it comes to the politicians who obviously have little concern if this type of tragedy could end up being the result of their rhetoric, there's just one side that needs to get that message, and it's the Republicans and their enablers on Faux and right-wing hate radio. We don't have any Democratic members of Congress out there telling their constituents to "reload' or that we need investigations looking into whether they're anti-American or not.

January 9, 2011 at 1:18 p.m.
obama4president said...

Whether you are left or right, wing-nut or sane, if you are not appalled by and condemning this tragedy then you are part of the problem. If you are more worried about your right to bear arms than you are disgusted by this shooting then you are one of many that should not have that right. The right to bear arms carries responsibility with it and if you are too busy defending your rights to see the horror in this, then you are not worthy of free speach or of the right to bear arms.

January 9, 2011 at 1:20 p.m.
enufisenuf said...

Annabul, great comback. Proves your an idiot, can't even transpose a spelling error, you mental midget.

January 9, 2011 at 1:42 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Ace,

This guy is a lefty. There is no doubt. His own writings makes this clear.

But do go on blaming Palin, McCain't, Bachmann, Foxnews, and any other, non-donkeys you'd like to pin the tail on.

It makes you look ignorant, foolish, and severely misinformed.

Who used the phrase, "bring a gun to a knife fight", from the bully pulpit?


"...you are not worthy of free speech or of the right to bear arms."

I'm so glad that there are those out there who are ready to decide who is worthy of fundamental natural rights, and who is not.

January 9, 2011 at 2:02 p.m.

Even though the shooter was mentally unstable, you can still point to the hate-mongers like Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Michelle Bachmann and their vitriol as part of the problem. Each one of these hatemongers has openly called for the harm or death of Democrats. They all have blood on their hands.

January 9, 2011 at 2:02 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Old_Liberal_Hippie | On: January 9, 2011 at 2:02 p.m.

Already smoked yourself stupid, eh?

January 9, 2011 at 2:19 p.m.
rolando said...

SCOTTYM said: I especially liked the way the shooter's posts at DKOS got scrubbed as soon as his identity was made public.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011...

The man was a nutcase. He was also, by his own written statements, politically active in support of a Democrat candidate. When she betrayed his ideology by voting for someone other than Pelosi to lead the House minority, and continued to support immigration law enforcement, he lost it.

But it's been fun watching the left try to cover their tracks and disassociate themselves from their own nut.

Excellent post, SCOTTYM

And thanks for the kind words. People sometimes don't realize how thin that wall can be...

January 9, 2011 at 2:20 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

Rolando wrote - "People sometimes don't realize how thin that wall can be..."

If you can't stand the post for real, doing it in a fantasy world is the next best thing, huh?

BTW - What's your avatar name? I'll bet he's really cool.

January 9, 2011 at 2:36 p.m.
acerigger said...

There are certainly left wing people who spew incendiary and violent rhetoric. But they are few and far between compared to the drumbeat of hatred and consequential acts of violence we've seen over the past two years and none who make the kind of profit at it that the right wing noise machine does. There is no comparison, it's ridiculous to frame it that way. And it ends up distorting the truth, which is that we have a violent right wing political movement developing in this country with the help and acquiescence of a major political party which refuses to police its own.

This is the kind of thing Democratic office holders have been facing at every public meeting since Barack Obama was elected:

January 9, 2011 at 2:45 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"consequential acts of violence"

From the right?

Post more than ONE instance of this in the last 10 years.

I posted 9 from the left.

What ya got? Besides left wing media talking points?

January 9, 2011 at 3:03 p.m.
dude_abides said...

SCOTTYM... The shooter had legal access to a semiautomatic 9mm handgun. Where do you think his right to bear arms ends, out of curiosity? Full auto? Fifty caliber sniper rifle? RPG launcher? Mortars? Mines? C4? This is a serious, non smarta** question.

January 9, 2011 at 3:49 p.m.
rick1 said...

How come those on the left and the media never questiond these acts of violence: October 2008 McCain-Palin's campaign bus came under gun fire in New Mexico,

The same week the home of Republican headquaters manager in central Florida was shot up.

How come no one on the left or in the media said anything when VP candidate Palin was hanged in effigy in California, or when the church she attends in Alaska was burned?

How come no one on the left or in the media questioned the fact Obama had spent nearly half his life including most of his presidential run as a devoted member of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's bizarre hate cult, his comparison of the US to Nazi Germany and his followers' acts of violence and intimidation?

January 9, 2011 at 4:05 p.m.
Lightnup said...

So, Anniebelle's answer to so-called violence inciters on the right is to "call them out and string them up as murderers." Good thing she didn't call for anything violent. Sheesh.

January 9, 2011 at 4:12 p.m.
rick1 said...

In regards to the web link I posted above one could suggest The Daily Koss was advocating violence against Rep Geffords. The posting was on 01/06/11. Why would The Daily Koss post that message? Did they make a police report? One has to wonder since Rep Giffords did not support a lot of the liberal agenda.

January 9, 2011 at 4:22 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"Where do you think his right to bear arms ends, out of curiosity?"

What does "shall not be infringed" mean?

"Full auto?" Already infringed, must be registered, and only units built before 1986 allowed. Given a sufficiently large pile of cash, one can legally purchase as many as you'd like provided one does the paperwork dance with the ATF.

"Fifty caliber sniper rifle?" Anyone who wants one and can afford to feed it is welcome to have these, no registration required. Some of the very best in the world are build right here in TN. For a fraction of the price, a high powered deer rifle will accomplish most of the same effects.

"RPG launcher? " (Rocket propelled grenade) One can have all the launchers one would like. You can buy them at about any surplus store. You can't legally possess the "RPG" part as it is an explosive device, and isn't considered a "firearm" by the ATF.

"Mortars? Mines? C4?" Explosive devices all, and not included under the description "firearms". (Not that it matters as roughly equivalent things can be cooked up from materials which are easily procured in 3rd world crap holes, one can dang sure cook up equivalents here in the land of plenty.)

I'm not being a smart**s either.

Until someone proves that they can not be trusted with weapons,(as the shooter in yesterdays massacre has done) any rules preventing, or restraining the right to have those things is prior restraint. Much like shutting down a newspaper operation because they MIGHT print something slanderous, restraining the rights of free people to possess firearms because they MIGHT misuse them is an infringement of individual freedom and oxymoronic to the very document upon which the fed.gov's right to exist is based.

January 9, 2011 at 4:35 p.m.
anniebelle said...

yes, lightup, that's what we do with murderers in this country. We take them to trial and give them their justice like they gave their victims with their casual call to all their nut jobs to go out and murder our elected officials.

January 9, 2011 at 4:36 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

This was no ones fault. There is no one to blame. Nothing happend here. This will all be forgotten in a few days. Keep beleiving that this is a random isolated event and that OUR actions had nothing to do with it. Let's all just move on.

The fact is, not a single one of you is going to do anything but hide your heads in the sand and point your fingers at the darkness. No change, no solutions, just noise trying to drown out reality. People died and all you can say is: don't take MY guns and it's the right/left fault.

Pathetic.

We are all pathetic.

(POP QUIZ- without doing a Google search, do any of you know the names of any of the victims that died yesterday? If not, your blogging for the wrong reason.)

In my opinion.

January 9, 2011 at 4:41 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

rick1,

FWIW,the shooter posted that at DKOS himself. I don't believe that most of the folks who post there, or indeed the powers-that-be who operate the website condone this sort of violence. They do have a lot of violent, hateful rhetoric floating around, but since it is only "right-wing nutcases" who ever actually do anything violent, it gets a pass.

I really doubt this guy ever payed any attention whatsoever to what Palin, Beck, or Foxnews ever said.

This incident is a tragedy for multiple people and their families. For the leftist media to jump on it in an attempt to score political points against the opposition, is just sickening. Especially when the information is clear that this guy was a leftist nutjob.

The further fact that so many are willing to just swallow what the media is feeding them, and turn around and spew the same idiocy even on this very page, should give any thinking person pause.

January 9, 2011 at 4:48 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

ab,

"...call them out and string them up as murderers."

=/=

"We take them to trial and give them their justice..."

But don't stop you're "hate speech" on our account.

January 9, 2011 at 4:52 p.m.
dude_abides said...

SCOTTYM... The problem is finding a reasonable disembarkation point. We can't wait on an individual to show us he's capable of mayhem before we restrict his right to own a howitzer any more than we can wait to see if that suspected jihadist is apt to take down a plane before we put him on a no-fly list. Would you agree that we are going to see more of this Mumbai- style commando stuff in the future? What could 5 tangos with 5 fully auto rifles do at 5 malls in 5 minutes? We know how easily they could buy the guns and alter them. Worse, there could be 50 rolandos crossfiring, trying to take them out. Sorry ro.

January 9, 2011 at 5:12 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

So SS59er

This:

"Sarah Palin's "Target Map" almost claims it's first victim."

Changes to this:

"We are all pathetic."

When the facts are known.

You were very willing to pin this on the opposition to score political points against a private citizen that you hate when the facts were ignored by your leftist media sources, but now that you know this guy was a far-left nutjob, it's the system, or better yet "all" of us that are to blame. It can't possibly be the hate filled rhetoric spewed by the left, because it isn't hate when you agree with it.

Funny how that works.

January 9, 2011 at 5:15 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

dude,

"We can't wait on an individual to show us he's capable of mayhem before we restrict his right to own a howitzer any more than we can wait to see if that suspected jihadist is apt to take down a plane before we put him on a no-fly list."

This is a false equivalence.

An individual seeking to own a large caliber rifle(sorry, the ammo used by a howitzer is explosive, so you can't have that either), is not the same as a suspected jihadist. Furthermore, there is no right to public air travel.

"What could 5 tangos with 5 fully auto rifles do at 5 malls in 5 minutes?"

A lot of damage, which would continue until someone takes them down, or they run out of ammo or targets.

Rolando wouldn't be the only person returning fire. ;)

Are you implying that unarmed, undefended civilians would fair better in this situation?

I don't think rolling up in a ball and kissing one's own a** goodbye is the best idea from a tactical stand point if staying alive, and/or stopping the assailant(s) is the objective.

January 9, 2011 at 5:27 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

Scotty, I can learn for my mistakes, can you?

January 9, 2011 at 5:41 p.m.
dude_abides said...

SCOTTYM... The reference is not to equate the two situations, rather to describe how discretion has it's place (trust them until they screw up, or not). It's not zero sum. I don't know if I've ever heard any of these psychokillers lobby for gun control in their ramblings. They have usually been too busy decrying the laws under consideration that would have curtailed their ability to kill little girls.

January 9, 2011 at 5:48 p.m.
anniebelle said...

this just in from DUH.com: KGUN ABC 9 Arizona affiliate reports: Shooter on his facebook page admired Sarah Palin and tea party.

January 9, 2011 at 6:04 p.m.
dude_abides said...

awful quiet around here since your post, anniebell. just tumbleweeds and the occasional crow trying not to be eaten. anti semite organization? 1st Jewish woman elected in Az.? very quiet. average postings every 10 min, now it's been 38 min.???

January 9, 2011 at 6:43 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"What appears to be Loughner's myspace page was captured by website Good Politics before it was deleted."

http://www.kgun9.com/global/story.asp?s=13809065

"Correction: KGUN9 News has received word that a photo that TV station KMOX said that it pulled from Jared Loughner's Facebook page before that page was shut down, depicting a young man standing in a stadium wearing a U of A logo sweatshirt did not show Loughner after all, but rather showed someone else. KGUN9 has removed that picture from this story."

That one didn't get far did it?

Do you have a good screen cap of this elusive Palin admiration fb page?

I can't seem to find anything definitive.

What ya got? Because the above is not it.


dude_abides | On: January 9, 2011 at 6:43 p.m.

WTF are you going on about?

Are you trying to play some twisted version of RaceCard?

Are you projecting?

What am I missing here?

January 9, 2011 at 7:19 p.m.
dude_abides said...

will this suffice?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345450/Tucson-shooting-suspect-Jared-Loughner-linked-fanatical-magazine-American-Renaissance.html

Fox News claimed it had seen a Department of Homeland Security memo which said Jared Lee Loughner, 22, had ties to American Renaissance, which

January 9, 2011 at 7:52 p.m.
rolando said...

seasmoke sez, "And if you think that you could have done better then maybe you should get from in front of your computer and "stand the post." Law Enforcement could use your help. Shooting at a paper target is a lot different than shooting at a moving target that's shooting back."

Carried concealed for 26 years, seasmoke...in the line of duty as a federal agent. I would feel naked outside the house without one. I carry nothing that does not start with a 4. Except for my hideaway on tux nights.

One develops good shooting habits on the firing range. It gives a certain objectivity and prevents life-ending hesitation at the critical time.

January 9, 2011 at 8:14 p.m.
enufisenuf said...

Annibull get of your high horse you self rightous witch. My ancestors fought against your liberal narrow minded kin 250 years ago to give big mouthed mental midgets like you the means to mouth off without having the first clue of how ignorant you sound. Please wear a name tag in public just in case you get into a situation like the dumbocrat broad and the judge in Arizona, or the folks at Lubys resturant in Texas or McDonalds in San Ysidro, because letting a whacked gunman target you would be a public service.

January 9, 2011 at 8:15 p.m.
rolando said...

lite-wait dude_abides sez "So what is your secret to staying so keenly aware of every news item and it's exact time of release, got talk radio humming right next to your Hornady 366 Auto Progressive Reloader?"

Nothing so dramatic, lite-wait. Townhall links to a blogger who posts info and links to those I cited. Happens like clockwork.

And that is just "Hornady AP Reloader"...and it works fine, especially now that the cost of supplies are dropping. When our fiat money folds, barter will work. Ammo and canned food are excellent investments.

January 9, 2011 at 8:22 p.m.
rolando said...

anniebelle sez, "I have my own gun and will use it to protect myself..."

Kinda hard to do when you are sitting in MickeyDee's et al and your gun is at home, isn't it?

No, my money sez you call 911 and wait...and wait...and wait.

January 9, 2011 at 8:25 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"Fox News claimed it had seen a Department of Homeland Security memo..."

So NOW second hand accounts of DHS memos supposedly seen by FoxNews is an unimpeachable source?

O.K.

"In a biographical sketch on the site, Loughner writes that he attended Tucson-area schools and says his favourite books include Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf, Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto, and Ken Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, set in an insane asylum.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345450/Tucson-shooting-suspect-Jared-Loughner-linked-fanatical-magazine-American-Renaissance.html#ixzz1Aacs2zNV

I'm a tad right-wing myself, and I've read the first two of those. I found them to be ignorant ramblings of delusional fools, masquerading as religions.

The ideas contained in each lead to some of the most terrifying episodes of mass murder in human history.

The common theme in both is Statism. The individual is, in all cases, subservient to the state.

I'm fairly certain that the TeaParty folks aren't big fans of this sort of thing.

The man may have been a racist as well. That's not indicative of political ideology.

Those shots were fired from the left.

January 9, 2011 at 8:28 p.m.
dude_abides said...

rolando, it strikes me that you probably have rations and microwave diffusing devices and one of those Burj Dubai short wave antennae and drive a truck in which you could be confused for a storm chaser, but I still find your posts somewhat...wait for it...disarming!

January 9, 2011 at 8:41 p.m.
dude_abides said...

The "right"ing is on the wall, and no amount of obfuscation will hide what's gonna come out. Palin took her crosshair targets down faster than the psycho's page was yanked. Why? Why not leave it there if that sort of thing does no harm?

January 9, 2011 at 8:56 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"One veteran Democratic operative, who blames overheated rhetoric for the shooting, said President Barack Obama should carefully but forcefully do what his predecessor did."

“They need to deftly pin this on the tea partiers,” said the Democrat. “Just like the Clinton White House deftly pinned the Oklahoma City bombing on the militia and anti-government people.”

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47294.html#ixzz1AaqxJQpu


Funny that Democrat operatives and the MSM are both running with the same, patently false, narrative.

Doesn't it feel like some folks' political ideology might be broken if the party, and their allies in the media, have to lie to support the narrative?

How's that working out?

January 9, 2011 at 9:02 p.m.
dude_abides said...

scotty. that's all you took from that page? did you not read what the senior republican senator said? talk about selective reporting. that is EXACTLY what you just did! that page was about reconciliation, with examples both ways. and you excerpt THAT anonymous slice as proof of something? your other posts have been better than that, although still wrong.

January 9, 2011 at 9:41 p.m.
acerigger said...

This is from the blogger at Daily Kos who was supposedly "scrubbed", 1. i fully apologize to all the victims in this shooting, including Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, for my poor choice of words in that diary.

  1. i fully and respectfully apologize to this blog and to Markos himself for the bad publicity amongst the right wing this has caused, including the NYT.

  2. i apologize to the DailyKos membership and readership for being maligned by the far right blogs.

However, I HAVE to offer a heartfelt "f**k you" to the right wing blogs AND the New York Times' Matt Bai, for even mentioning my username here in ANY connection to that unspeakable and unthinkable horror. If my real name ever gets out there because of a simple diary posted here three days ago, I shall sue for defamation. Libel, to be specific. I am still in shock over this horror in MY community. But i am also shocked and stunned that my diary of three days ago here would be all over the place online, and including the supposed "paper of record". I'm in a daze over all this. Thank you for reading.

EDIT: i was the person who deleted MY diary of three days ago, under NO pressure from anyone at DailyKos. It was certainly NOT "scrubbed" by the site's moderators of Markos. I chose to delete it because i thought it being in existence after the horrific event on Saturday was in poor taste.

January 9, 2011 at 9:56 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Scotty, pretty selective in your posting of the article from the daily mail site. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1345450/Tucson-shooting-suspect-Jared-Loughner-linked-fanatical-magazine-American-Renaissance.html#ixzz1Aacs2zNV

Notice his rants about things being "unconstitutional". Hmm, what organization has made its mark screaming about supposed abuses of the Constitution?

You said that "Those shots were fired from the left." What part of his rant about not supporting our currency and wishing for the gold standard sounds like something from the left?

That's tea party rhetoric.

Mind control? Tea bagger sites and their leaders have made it a staple trying to convince Americans this administration is intent on controlling its citizens.

In one of his videos he says "Don't trust the government listener!" Gee, wonder where this rhetoric comes from? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/09/jared-lee-loughner-rightwing-rants

What about his rant ""You don't have to accept the federalist laws. Read the United States of America constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws."

Can you say typical right wing, tea bagger rhetoric?

Oh, and your statement "The man may have been a racist as well. That's not indicative of political ideology."

Racisim has been a staple of conservationism for as long as I can remember.

Sorry Scotty, lame attempt to portray this nut as having a left wing ideology. This smacks of far right, anti government, tea bagger blather.

January 9, 2011 at 10:02 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

hotdiggity,

Still buying the furious spin I see.

"Hmm, what organization has made its mark screaming about supposed abuses of the Constitution?"

That comes from the left quite frequently when it serves the purpose. Remember the Patriot Act? How about Gitmo? What was the left complaining about on those issues?

"What part of his rant about not supporting our currency and wishing for the gold standard sounds like something from the left?"

Where is an example of a Tea-party type advocating the abandonment of the U.S.Dollar? Nixson(R) axed the gold standard.

"Mind control? Tea bagger sites and their leaders have made it a staple trying to convince Americans this administration is intent on controlling its citizens."

They aren't talking about mind control. Do you believe mind control is possible? I mean other than mass media propaganda induced stupidity?

"You don't have to accept the federalist laws. Read the United States of America constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws."

The Constitution is the "federalist law". This is babble.

"Racisim has been a staple of conservationism for as long as I can remember."

Then you should take that up with the conservationists.

If you really want to discuss racism, tell me who totally supports special treatment for some citizens simply because of the color of their skin.

Here's a hint. It ain't the conservatives.

A concerted effort is being waged by the left in the media to convince you, and as many other folks as will fall for it that this is the tea-party in action. You're not only falling for it, you're participating.

Sick.

January 9, 2011 at 10:36 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Here is one person who put the "right-wing fault" ball in motion, and who also has a very intimate knowledge of the facts surrounding this case.

"Dupnik admitted "it's just my opinion period" and that "I don't have that information yet."

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/megyn-kelly-takes-on-az-sheriff-clarence-dupnik-over-his-political-spin-on-shooting/

Just a little political spin from the local law enforcement.

Still buying it?

January 9, 2011 at 10:51 p.m.
acerigger said...

Here's you a little "political spin",,, "Showing no sign of tamping down on divisive political rhetoric in the wake of the shooting of 20 people that left six dead in Tuscon Saturday, the Tea Party Nation group e-mailed its members Sunday warning them they would be called upon to fight leftists in the days ahead and defend their movement.

TPN founder Judson Phillips, in an article linked off the e-mail "The shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and the left's attack on the Tea Party movement," described the shooter as "a leftist lunatic" and Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik as a "leftist sheriff" who "was one of the first to start in on the liberal attack." Phillips urged tea party supporters to blame liberals for the attack on centrist Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona, who was shot through the head and is now fighting for her life, as a means of defending the tea party movement's recent electoral gains.

"The hard left is going to try and silence the Tea Party movement by blaming us for this," he wrote. Clinton used the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing to "blame conservative talk radio, especially Rush Limbaugh" and "The tactic worked then, backing conservatives off and possibly helping to ensure a second Clinton term."

"The left is coming and will hit us hard on this. We need to push back harder with the simple truth. The shooter was a liberal lunatic. Emphasis on both words," he wrote.

Good of him to write it down. Just so we know.

January 9, 2011 at 11:02 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Scotty, love this statement of yours, "If you really want to discuss racism, tell me who totally supports special treatment for some citizens simply because of the color of their skin."

Uhh, racism is not defined as supporting people because of the color of their skin. Racism is an attempt by one race to prove superiority over another. Also, people who are opposed to racism is not because of "the color of their skin", but rather the understanding that you should not define a person or race because they are different than you and attempt to deny them the same rights as yourself.

The better question to ask is.. If you really want to discuss racism, tell me who in America has opposed basic freedoms and human right to people because of the color of their skin?

Here's a hint. It ain't the liberal/progressives.

January 10, 2011 at 11:27 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"Racism is an attempt by one race to prove superiority over another."

That's a pretty thin definition. I'd say it's more along the lines of treating a person differently simply because of their race.

Special treatment, due to race, in a positive manner is just as much racism as special treatment, due to race, in a negative manner.

"If you really want to discuss racism, tell me who in America has opposed basic freedoms and human right to people because of the color of their skin?"

Southern Democrats.

The same ones who supported all the "progressive" ideas FDR's administration shoved down our throats.

You don't get to pick and choose which time periods of the Democratic Party history you want to be associated with. Especially if you want to claim to be a part of the "progressive" movement that caught legs in the '20s and '30s. You don't get to skip over the '40s, '50s, and '60s when the Democrats were filibustering civil rights bills, and enacting Jim Crow laws.

The Democrat/Progressives own this.

You can go ahead and try the progressive vs. conservative spin, but it won't work. It's the Democrats who have been considering themselves "progressives" since the '30s, and they have continued to do so to this very day.

Historical revisionism only works on the ignorant.

Are you a revisionist, or one of the ignorant ones who fell for it?

"Here's a hint. It ain't the liberal/progressives"

Here's a better hint. Yes it is.

Here's another hint, there is nothing liberal about the modern left.

January 12, 2011 at 1:18 a.m.
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