published Sunday, July 3rd, 2011

Independence Day

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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dude_abides said...

Rasp-berry cake?

July 3, 2011 at 12:04 a.m.
alprova said...

I'm going to celebrate my independence from...the Tea Party/Republican Party/CINO this weekend. Just in case anyone was wondering, it stands for Conservatives In Name Only.

I thank God for pointing me the right way to discover what the GOP is all about, what they have done to this country, and what they plan to do, that is if they regain control of the legislative process in this nation.

I'll bet that I have even more to celebrate this time next year too, namely a better national economy, despite those who want to keep ruining it, and as dismal a prospect as a Republican worthy of unseating President Obama, as there is today.

Happy Independence Day, my fellow Democrats/Liberals/Progressives/Marxists/Socialists/or whatever silly name I am called on any given day.

And a Happy Independence Day to all of you brainwashed Republicans/Teabagging Head Bangers/Conservative hypocrites/Illogical thinkers, ETC.

You're not independent from anything, 'cause you nurse on the teat of an elephant for your sustenance, but you're sure entertaining when you get wound up.

July 3, 2011 at 12:58 a.m.
jimbob said...

Happy Independence Day Alprova.

July 3, 2011 at 8:04 a.m.
rick1 said...

The sad fact is each day we are losing more of our freedom, independence and free will. and are becoming more of a socialist country. When the government forces one person to help another, by spreading the wealth, the taxpayer becomes an involuntary servitude of those who receive the handouts through the collection of taxes. Every Government handout program is socialism and involuntary servitude is the essence of Slavery.

July 3, 2011 at 8:13 a.m.
miraweb said...

Happy Fourth of July, everybody! Enjoy the BBQ.

July 3, 2011 at 8:57 a.m.
rolando said...

Oh, dude! A real groaner... Argh.

July 3, 2011 at 9:32 a.m.
Clara said...

Well, we're free to follow the miriad of laws promulgated by the bureaucrats, or not, and suffer the consequences.

Much like the community picnic I went to yesterday.

Fried fish, chicken, hush puppird provided, and a cazillion side dishes and dessert which the neighbors brought.

If common sense hadn't reigned over what was offered, I would have been back in the hospital last night. Have a good Fourth.

BURP! OOPS! scuza me...POO

July 3, 2011 at 9:38 a.m.
dude_abides said...

I know, rolando, I know. Just "file" it under stupid puns.

Everybody have a great 4th, except SeaMonkey. You just have a pretty good one.

July 3, 2011 at 10:25 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

This is Bennett's Independence Day message?

I really expected The Wart to make some kind of effort for the holiday. Oh well.

July 3, 2011 at 11:04 a.m.
rick1 said...

I agree tax subsidies should be eliminated for all companies including Green Energy Companies. Why should the tax payer be on the hook for billions of dollars in tax credits, subsidies or whatever cleaver term politicians want to use when the company could not stay in business without the governments help. Government needs to stay out of the way and let businesses succeed or fail on their own.

In January 2011 during Obama’s State of the Union Address he said he wanted to change the current corporate income tax law. Later that same month Obama named GE CEO Jeffery Imellt as head of Obama’s Job Council.

How serious is Obama about changing the current corporate tax law when GE did not pay income tax in 2010 despite $5 billion in profits? Also Imellt is responsible for out sourcing thousands of jobs while receiving bailout money that was given to protect American jobs. Remember also up to 2005 GE was doing business with Iran so we have to wonder how loyal Imellt is to our country. GE will also benefit greatly from Green Energy projects and one has to wonder how much they will receive in tax subsidies.

Obama’s statements on changing the corporate tax code appear to be just another of long list of Obama lies when you look at his relationship with GE.

Obama hates and wants to destroy big oil, big banks and other big corporations that do not fit his agenda and destroy our economy even more. If Obama would stop demonizing these corporations and stop all of the unnecessary regulations which are very cumbersome under ObamaCare and Dodd Frank bill along, businesses would start expanding and hiring.

Your comment about the wages for the middle class being stagnant since 1980 is false and if you read the link I posted yesterday you would know this. So stop the lying on class warfare.

July 3, 2011 at 11:06 a.m.
tderng said...

HAPPY 4th OF JULY TO EVERYONE!Even those who don't seem to like this country.Time for sun,water,food and fireworks!!!!!!GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS WHO SERVE TO KEEP US FREE!!Remember them as you celebrate!!

July 3, 2011 at 12:35 p.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

Republicans have a way of taking something very liberal in NATURE and demonizing it into something unrecognizable from it's original nature.

They have done so with religion and God. Morphed them into something only a Republican could love.

Rewrite the Bible so it fits their needs. Rewrite the Constitution, a very LIBERAL document to meet their requirements. Rewrite history so Paul Revere used bells instead of lanterns.

Republicans always bring to mind the kind of people Jesus drove out of the temple. The money changers and the sellers of animals for sacrifice.

But I'm just a simple liberal with a "hatred of God", so what do I know.

It's as though Republicans live in some kind of Bizarro world where good is bad and bad is good.

stanleyyelnats.com

July 3, 2011 at 12:46 p.m.
limric said...

Happy Independence day one and all.

This morning it was off to practice 300 meters with my Dragunov and Savage 10FCP. Much fun. 1.25 MOA. Not bad eh- 'BigRidgPatriot' :-) Yea Boyee!!

And now to start BBQing some ribs, corn, beans, slaw and about 50 gallons of iced tea, AND some ice cold tequila juice with the family.

Man - I'm glad I live here. With all it's foibles and weirdness, it's still the best place I've ever laid my hat...and I've seen the world.

July 3, 2011 at 1:25 p.m.
alprova said...

Rick1 wrote: "How serious is Obama about changing the current corporate tax law when GE did not pay income tax in 2010 despite $5 billion in profits?"

Actually, GE made $5.1 billion in profits, and if you knew a thing about the tax code in the United States, you'd realize that the statement that GE did not pay taxes is completely false.

GE Capital lost billions in the financial crisis, which allowed them to claim a Net Operating Loss Carryover claim for future years. In 5 years filings prior to 2010, GE paid more than $14 billion in taxes to the Government.

GE's 2010 financial statements reported a $3.25 billion U.S. current tax benefit, which is the figure that had some people up in arms. But a company's current tax number has nothing to do with what it actually pays in taxes for a given year. "Current tax benefit" and "current tax expense" are so-called financial reporting numbers, used to calculate the profits a company reports to shareholders.

Did GE get a $3.2 billion tax refund? No.

Did GE pay U.S. income taxes in 2010? They most certainly did. They paid estimated taxes for 2010, and made payments during previous years that as it turned out for 2010 to be over-payments. It's very much like you paying withholding taxes on your salary in 2010, and sending the IRS a check on April 15, 2010, to cover any balance owed for 2009.

How much will be paid? The exact figure will come in next year, when it settles up with the Gov't for 2010. They will pay some tax.

"Also Imellt is responsible for out sourcing thousands of jobs while receiving bailout money that was given to protect American jobs."

Is it just now dawning on some of you that the outsourcing movement along with the tax benefits that come with it, created by Republicans to assist companies plagued by overpaid, selfish American workers, is a bad thing?

Hypocrites.

July 3, 2011 at 1:51 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

limric said... "This morning it was off to practice 300 meters with my Dragunov and Savage 10FCP. Much fun. 1.25 MOA"

1.25 MOA? That is awesome! It must have been outrageously calm this morning. I was out not long ago and thought I was feeling a 10 knot wind.

Where do you find a 300m range around here? Wait, you are not around here, are you.

July 3, 2011 at 2:19 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, the left are the hypocrites when they demonize companies for outsourcing jobs over seas. When GE who happens to be in bed with Obama outsources thousands of jobs after receiving bailout money to protect American jobs, and not a word is said by you or anyone else on the left. If that had been Bush we would still be hearing about it.

Once again blame the republicans for the tax benefits corporations get when Pelosi, Reid and Obama had full control for two years and did nothing about tax reform. They could not even pass a budget during those two years. What a leader we have in Obama.

Republicans are by no way blameless but you are so blinded by your liberal views you blame the republicans for everything that is wrong, and have an excuse for all of Obama's failures and his lack of experenice.

July 3, 2011 at 2:31 p.m.
alprova said...

Rick1 wrote: "Your comment about the wages for the middle class being stagnant since 1980 is false and if you read the link I posted yesterday you would know this. So stop the lying on class warfare."

Terminology means a lot.

Your posted link from yesterday is a meaningless report, when contrasted to what happened in the few years following 2005.

Compare wages and tax bracket movement from 2005 to 2010. That's a much more relevant statistic. Do you really think that a set of statistics, only valid due to an artificial, fraudulent economy that eventually imploded, is relevant?

Puuhhlleeez...

Wages may not have been specifically "stagnant," but you cannot begin to argue that the prevailing current statistics bear out any fact whatsoever to suggest that people have remained in those upper tax brackets to which they formerly moved into.

Ancient history will always be ancient history. Your report that you posted is ancient history and no longer reflects reality as people have come to know it in the year 2011.

And as I pointed out, those years leading up to the economy's balloon bursting, were standing on beds of Jello.

I just entered into a contract to sell a property of mine for one-half of what it appraised for in 2005. The most recent appraisal was performed two weeks ago.

Which appraisal was correct? In the year 2011, the most recent one is correct. I could sit here all day long and claim that the one performed almost 4 years ago is the true and correct value, but that isn't going to cut it, nor is it nor is it a realistic expectation, is it?

Why is it that right-wingers have so much trouble dealing with reality?

July 3, 2011 at 2:33 p.m.
limric said...

BRP,

No, I live in the retarded state of Florida.

There was no wind this morning. Perfect conditions. And the reason I go early in the morning is that it gets HOT out. What we also like to do is is put sporting clays on berms or trees and pop those. A really good place to shoot is the Bradford Sportmans Farm just north of Gainseville Fl. Link is below.

http://www.bsfshootingsports.com/

If you follow links in the web page you see the 'RU a shooter' link. I'm in there.

I take (and can dish it out too) a lot of razzing for not being a died in the wool Republican. But it's all in good fun.

ON TO THE RIBS - and more Tequila.

July 3, 2011 at 5:28 p.m.
rolando said...

Chattanooga Rifle Club goes up to 500 yds, BigRidge. It is also a sanctioned range. Full auto, handgun, matches, etc. All different ranges but they are there.

I still favor the .30-06 Springfield for long shots...it is capable of those kinds of groupings, unfortunately I am not.

July 3, 2011 at 5:35 p.m.
rolando said...

Here's one for your perusal...

http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/

July 3, 2011 at 5:36 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

rolando said... "Chattanooga Rifle Club goes up to 500 yds"

I thought you could only use the longer stations on that range during specific events, since the entrance road passes over the range and needs to be closed during use.

July 3, 2011 at 5:50 p.m.
rolando said...

Yeah, there are restrictions. But it is do-able. It is only the 500, anyway, and it is elevated. Due to the terrain, one really needs a pre-fire spotter at the closer stations to ensure some idiot hasn't changed the warning sign and moved onto the range. It would almost have to be deliberate to get into the live-fire courses. They do not fire one directly behind the other...they are staggered -- again, if memory serves, the 500 fires [well] over the heads of anyone on the 100 or the 200 -- hence the warnings, etc.

July 3, 2011 at 6:18 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Incumbents write the campaign laws. I imagine protecting themselves from challengers is one of their motives, eh?

And laws telling us we can't use our own money to spread our own opinions are laws that protect our freedom? Especially our opinions of politicians and of laws? Laws telling us we can't join like-minded people to spread our opinion are laws that protect our freedom? The guys who wrote the Constitution didn't just spend their own gold (and King Louis XVI's), but their own lead (plumbum). And King George was made to listen.

alprova, Obama has been President for a majority of the last four years, so do you blame him for a majority (or close to half) of the decline in your property's value? Wish these liberals would face reality.

And ancient history is ancient history. Bush jr left a deficit around $500 billion, joblessness under 8%, gasoline price whatever. Two cheers for ancient history! Well, one and a half. Eh? And Bushcare cost less than expected, which is amazing for a government program. (It featured competition). The price for Obamacare keeps going up, and his cronies keep asking for waivers. (Campaign finance reform needed here?)

"...proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof"--Leviticus 25:10, quoted on the Liberty Bell.

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only not liberty for occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another"--Galatians 5:13.

July 3, 2011 at 11:33 p.m.
fairmon said...

Business taxes: Eliminate all deductions, reductions, subsidies, incentives, or other exceptions. Set a rate of 20% on all profits for any business of any size. Most CEO's, including GE's Imelt, at a recent conference agreed this predictable system would be an improvement.

Personal taxes: Eliminate all exceptions and "special categories" like heduge fund managers that pay only 15% on their millions in income.n Eliminate all deductions, reductions with no rate difference per category such as head of household, married, single, widor or widower and other favored categories. Begin at the poverty level and increase incrementally up to 1.5 million with a top rate of 55%. A fair and predictable system.

Governments ever increasing manipulation resulting in 11,000 pages of regulations has complicated the system so much the IRS can't answer all the questions.

The best and fairest tax is the fair tax proposal that is hotly opposed by many politicians and the wealthy. Check it out at;

fair tax.org

July 3, 2011 at 11:37 p.m.
fairmon said...

Independence is being routinely eroded by local, state and federal government with new laws and regulations being the norm without deleting any already in place.

Grants, subsidies, incentives are tools of manipulation used primarily by the federal government to make state and local governments instruments of the federal government. They all amount to the extraction of money from one group labeled as incentive, subsidy or grant and redistributed. Recipients act as though it is free money and have people assigned to pursuing federal money.

In an interview one powerful senator responded "this is just the nature of politics, that is the way we do things and get things done". A limited number in each party along with the RNC and DNC are in control by their own design. Both parties have a solid base of naive loyal supporters so each tries to lure enough independents and special interest to gain more control.

July 4, 2011 at 12:06 a.m.
alprova said...

AndrewLohr wrote: "alprova, Obama has been President for a majority of the last four years, so do you blame him for a majority (or close to half) of the decline in your property's value?"

President Obama just passed the 2 and a half year mark. Let's not count to four just yet. And why in the world would I blame him for the decline in my property value? He's done absolutely nothing that would cause it to decline in value.

What happened that affected my property's value began in 1999, at the hand of three former Republicans who worked diligently to overturn the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which was enacted at the time to prevent a repeat of the first Great Depression. Graham-Leach-Bliley fostered a repeat of the same problems that included the housing bubble and the artificial economy, that burst and resulted in causing as much fear and anxiety for people as if a condom were to do the same thing on prom night.

You'd understand that if you and your elephant riding chumps were to do the slightest amount of research into who did what, when, who voted for it, who had to sign it into law, and why people in the past knew that it was a very bad idea to allow certain businesses to merge, to combine assets, or to act as investment brokers.

"Wish these liberals would face reality."

When you quit thinking that you carry a tune on YouTube like Justin Bieber, then you post in this forum about anyone facing reality.

"And ancient history is ancient history. Bush jr left a deficit around $500 billion"

Wrong. Shortly before he left office, he had put in motion $1.2 trillion with a stroke of his pen, that carried over into 2009 and that is a documented fact.

"joblessness under 8%"

What does that prove? All it proves is that the economy had not completed the journey to the bottom when Obama entered the Oval Office.

You elephant riders who root for the Republicans and blame President Obama for the economy are completely ignorant to what drives the economy in this nation, and how little if any that the President has to do with it. You will notice that I have NEVER blamed GWB for anything that has ever happened.

The only thing Bush did that contributed to the current state of affairs, as we know it, was to enter us into two wars that have cost this nation a million dollars per day, and to coddle the rich with another tax decrease that has prevented any chance whatsoever of having a balanced budget.

July 4, 2011 at 1:23 a.m.
alprova said...

Rick1 wrote: "Al, the left are the hypocrites when they demonize companies for outsourcing jobs over seas."

Really?

"When GE who happens to be in bed with Obama outsources thousands of jobs after receiving bailout money to protect American jobs, and not a word is said by you or anyone else on the left."

Do you know why I don't say anything about it? Because it's a stupid lie. First of all, how is Obama "in bed with GE Capital?" That silly charge comes straight from Rush Limbaugh. He was the first person to utter it.

Limbaugh and you, I suppose, are upset because GE owned NBC and still owns MSNBC. So now each has one Network apiece.

GE contributes heavily to the Democrats. Koch Industries contributes heavily to the Republicans. Both companies have their allies in Congress.

GE, a company steeped in technology and energy concerns is going green. They belly up to the Gov't for what it can get in terms of incentives for developing green products. This irks Limbaugh to no end. He's made no secret of it on his show.

"And they've used government money to create this green energy division that they have. And they're behind these compact fluorescent light bulbs" Limbaugh said. "They run NBC and MSNBC at a steep loss in order to give Obama his own cheerleading news network, and this CEO ends up on an advisory board now."

"If that had been Bush we would still be hearing about it."

CFL's are a bad thing? I love 'em myself.

"Once again blame the republicans for the tax benefits corporations get when Pelosi, Reid and Obama had full control for two years and did nothing about tax reform."

GE's write-offs had nothing to do with Corporate tax abuse. They lost billions when the markets tanked.

"They could not even pass a budget during those two years. What a leader we have in Obama."

It's not unheard of that budgets aren't passed from time to time. The GOP led Congress didn’t pass final budget resolutions in 1998, 2004 and 2006. As I recall, partisan bickering was largely responsible for those failures to get those budgets passed as well.

"Republicans are by no way blameless but you are so blinded by your liberal views you blame the republicans for everything that is wrong, and have an excuse for all of Obama's failures and his lack of experenice."

Well then, let's have a little contest. Why don't you SPECIFICALLY and in DETAIL list all these things that President Obama has done or failed to do, that clearly prove your charges.

July 4, 2011 at 6:11 a.m.
jimbob said...

Enjoy the 4th every one.

July 4, 2011 at 6:56 a.m.
rick1 said...

Al, Obama's stimulus program was a failure and giving baiout money to GE which was to keep jobs here in America. GE has cut their American workforce to 150,00 but has exanped their global presence to over 300,000 workers world wide, and earlier this year GE announced it was building a plant in India.

In a speech to the Detroit Economic Club in 2009, Immelt berated "Buy American" policies while acknowledging that GE lived under domestic preference regimes in China, France, and other nations. It appears Immelt's mind, it is OK for China and France to require to GE to make what it sells in their nations, but it's not OK for America to do the same.

Immelt has supported policies that have destroyed the manufacturing workforce in this country and this is who Obama names to head his economic jobs council. Do I hear concerns from Al about this? No. All Al can do is throw out Rush Limbaugh's name and change the topic.

The stimuls has been a failure and Obama appointing Immelt to head his economic job council will only benefit GE and billions of taxpayers money will go to GE for Obama's failed Green Energy Policy.

Al take a look at Spain and Italy and see how many jobs were lost when one green job was created. Another failed policy of Obama's.

November 2012 can not come fast enough.

July 4, 2011 at 8:42 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA 2011

(Every 4th of July I write down a few thoughts about my Country.)

America is an idea forged from idealism and tempered by catastrophe. America is freedom, democracy, and the rule of law.

We are free to pursue happiness and make our dreams come true through hard work and self-determination. We understand that the nobility of the American character transcends race, religion, and upbringing.

Individual freedom and liberty is part of our legacy, but putting America first is what makes America great. That’s how our soldiers are able to sacrifice their lives and why America has survived challenges throughout history.

That idealism brings us all to our feet, from the richest to the poorest, to stand together for the playing of the ‘Star Spangled Banner.’

Yet the ideal is not always met. Perfection is seldom achieved.

But the Founding Fathers knew that if they did not hang together they would surely hang individually. Their strength was in their unity of purpose, even though that purpose was the sovereignty of the individual.

Perhaps as never before, the same holds true today.

July 4, 2011 at 9:15 a.m.
chet123 said...

There are multi-thousands in american...what i dont get is why GE the only CORPORATION mentioned....is i'm missing something???

July 4, 2011 at 10:36 a.m.
alprova said...

Rick1 wrote: "Al, Obama's stimulus program was a failure and giving baiout money to GE which was to keep jobs here in America."

There is no evidence whatsoever that any jobs have been shifted out of the United States by GE. There ARE several rumors posted on right leaning blogs and at the time in 2009, Bill O'Reilly started the rumors as well. No Proof. Just rumors, which seems to be good enough for some people these days.

"GE has cut their American workforce to 150,00 but has exanped their global presence to over 300,000 workers world wide, and earlier this year GE announced it was building a plant in India."

Again, there is no proof that the jobs outside of the United States are the result of GE moving operations out of the States. GE has had a global presence for decades. There have been several announcements that the U.S. workforce is being expanded, especially in new, green technology areas.

"In a speech to the Detroit Economic Club in 2009, Immelt berated "Buy American" policies while acknowledging that GE lived under domestic preference regimes in China, France, and other nations. It appears Immelt's mind, it is OK for China and France to require to GE to make what it sells in their nations, but it's not OK for America to do the same."

You copied the above word for word from what could be a number of places online and unfortunately, there's not a shred of truth to it.

Here's a text version of that speech.

http://files.gereports.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/jrispeech_reprint.pdf

If that's not good enough, here's the video.

http://www.gereports.com/american-renewal-immelt-addresses-detroit-econ-club/

Quote the applicable sentences, please.

"Immelt has supported policies that have destroyed the manufacturing workforce in this country and this is who Obama names to head his economic jobs council."

Do you believe in creating drama much? GE is the oldest remaining of the Dow Jones Companies. They don't stay there due to "destroying the manufacturing workforce," here or anywhere else.

He was there to announce intentions of GE to bring high-tech jobs to Michigan, or was that fact totally lost on you?

"Do I hear concerns from Al about this? No. All Al can do is throw out Rush Limbaugh's name and change the topic."

Hey...say what you will, but I do my research and I do my own thinking. Like it or not, you quoted Rush Limbaugh's charges, which were totally overblown and quite silly. Don't blame me for the lack of credibility in them.

*"The stimuls has been a failure and Obama appointing Immelt to head his economic job council will only benefit GE and billions of taxpayers money will go to GE for Obama's failed Green Energy Policy."

You say that "Obama's green policy" is a failure, but you don't say why.

Well I don't think those people who still have a job look at what was done as being a failure, and like I said, I love CFL's. I can't wait to see what they invent next.

July 4, 2011 at 10:40 a.m.
alprova said...

chet123 wrote: "There are multi-thousands in american...what i dont get is why GE the only CORPORATION mentioned....is i'm missing something???"

You're witnessing firsthand, the condition of a paranoid Conservative/Republican. Everything, I mean everything...is a conspiracy.

It makes no matter that employees of GE are not President Obama's top contributors. In fact they rank #17 as of today.

Some people are convinced that General Electric, because they owned NBC until they sold it to Comcast, and because they still own MSNBC, favor President Obama in all their reporting, dating back to his run for President.

Some think that President Obama has some super secret relationship with the CEO of General Electric, Jeffrey Imelt, because he appointed the man to a position, during 2009 as a member to the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board, then earlier this year, appointed him as chairman of his outside panel of economic advisers, to replace Paul Volcker.

It could never be that the man has amassed a solid reputation as a 29 year employee of General Electric, and because he has been CEO of the company since four days prior to 9/11, where he has worked relentlessly to keep the company afloat despite a 60% loss in stock value, and billions upon billions in losses since the economy tanked in 2008.

The rumor is that due to Uncle Obama's generosity, GE was saved by massive amounts of cash gifts, even though no one can figure out how in the world these two men met to begin this secret love affair with one another.

And do you know the most laughable fact that no one seems to notice? Jeffrey Imelt is an avowed, free market spouting, capitalism espousing Republican.

July 4, 2011 at 11:21 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Happy Independence Day everyone.

We live in an exceptional country and should work every day to protect our freedom from false philanthropy and corrupt self-interests of government.

July 4, 2011 at 12:49 p.m.
fairmon said...

Today is set aside to express appreciation for those that sacrificed and many that made the ultimate sacrifice beginning with those who fought for and gained our independence. It is hard to imagine the number sacrificing life and limb to achieve and to defend the independence we now take for granted. It becomes easier and easier to give up freedom for false promises of security.

Today's politicians can emulate the roar of the cannon but never make a hole in the target. Both parties seek to achieve the same control exercised by the Kings of Great-Britain from which our founders escaped to provide Americans the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The federal government powers were limited to those granted by the states. The manipulation of states and making them essentially impotent is evident but never questioned by those demanding more and more from the federal government. The federal government in an effort to expand their power and control is governing in a way that assures all citizens are dependent and equally impoverished.

The government and the people appear hell bent to assure America experiences the same fate of all great dynasty's in history by behaving just as each of those that failed. The similarities and rhetoric are frighteningly similar. Students keep asking why do we have to study history and over time educators have made the importance of history much less important. In a recent test of high school seniors 75% didn't know who the first U.S. president was.

July 4, 2011 at 12:49 p.m.
carlB said...

rick1 said Government needs to stay out of the way and let businesses succeed or fail on their own. When the government forces one person to help another, by spreading the wealth, the taxpayer becomes an involuntary servitude of those who receive the handouts through the collection of taxes. Every Government handout program is socialism and involuntary servitude is the essence of Slavery.


Reply to rick1: Why did our government leaders keep lying to us about the benefits of the free trade agreements with the lower monetary value countries? What has happened after our gobernment has gotten and Congress has approved all pf the "free trade agreements"? It appears that you are not of the results and what the total effects these trade agreements are having on our Republic? Are you one of the people who think it would be giving up your freedom if you were asked to stop buying the imported goods of the "private global corporate monopolies"? If or when the US consumers help drive this Republic into another great depression, then what will happen to the global corporations? You can't have it both ways. We have had an unstainable trend on our trade deficit with these global companies for many years and not anybody is wanting to do anything about it except President Obama when he is wanting to get the private manufacturing jobs back. Just look what is occurring in our area just to get manufacturing jobs. I don't like giving these private companies the "country store" but it's called "compromising" for the short-term. We apparently do not have companies and the stock holders who feel they are supposed to be loyal or patriotic ro the US as long as their imported good are being bought to the tune of $578 bilion dollars per year.

July 4, 2011 at 1:08 p.m.
carlB said...

Excuse the left out words and the spelling. If anyone does not understand the above, write me!

July 4, 2011 at 2:37 p.m.
carlB said...

I'm familiar with a rasp and if the cake is divided in half as the people are in the USA at this time, there are "rough" feelings/edges on both sides.

July 4, 2011 at 2:41 p.m.
fairmon said...

carlb,

Why not treat companies better and make American made goods and services competitive to the point people would prefer them? Jim Rogers, an economist and one of the most successful investors in this century said "The dollar is not just in decline, it is a mess. I believe the dollar could lose it's status as the world's reserve currency, something that would lead to a huge decline in the standard of living of U.S. citizens like nothing seen in over a century". Mr. Rogers now lives in China and primarily invest in Chinese stocks and in world commodities.

The IMF recently published a paper calling for a new global world currency. Russia and China have already agreed to not use the dollar as the exchange medium in trading between the two countries.

Brazil is one of the healthiest economies in the world. Brazilian economist Ricardo C. Amaral recently wrote "The U.S. dollar has served it's purpose as the world's foreign exchange reserve currency since world war II. It has reached the end of the line, the system is very sick and dying a slow death. The collapse of the dollar will create the the biggest monetary crisis the world has ever seen.

The normalcy factor is a predictable reaction where people refuse to believe if it has never happened before it never will. Katrina was a good example of the normalcy factor at work. There are many other excellent examples. One good one on post here is Alprova's unwavering support and defense of Obama. He doesn't think Obama passes gas and if he did he would insist it was the right thing to do and it smelled like peaches. He is very convinced Obama is providing excellent leadership and making good decisions. The truth is neither party is willing to make sound and effective decisions in the best interest of the American middle class. Many members are not capable of grasping the seriousness of the problem much less propose action to address it.

In 1979 sixty one American companies had a AAA credit rating by Moody's. Today that number is only 4. Figures don't lie but liars figure. In the 1930's anyone without a job and not retired was counted as unemployed. Today the government calculates unemployment by calculating the number of people receiving unemployment benefits. Once benefits run out they are no longer counted. Expiring benefits can result in a lower unemployment number when actually the number increased.

Intel's CEO stated "I can tell you definitively it cost one billion dollars more to build, equip and operate a facility in the U.S. He said 90% of the added cost are not higher wage rates but higher taxes and regulatory charges other nations do not impose.

No business is going to expand with the potential of paying the highest corporate rate in the world (35%) and having to depend on a tax system and a team of accountants to possibly pay something less. They recognize political black mail when they see it.

July 4, 2011 at 5:07 p.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "In a recent test of high school seniors 75% didn't know who the first U.S. president was."

I Googled that one, because I was having trouble with it and as it turns out, there was a study of some kind performed in Oklahoma City in September, 2009.

The Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs commissioned a company called Strategic Vision, located in San Diego, California, to conduct the study that purportedly claims that only one in four Oklahoma public high school students can name the first President of the United States.

No mention is made anywhere how many students were tested or mention made of the demographic makeup of those who participated in taking what was alleged to be a common citizenship test. It was claimed that only 3% of these tested students would have passed such a citizenship test, while reporting that 92% of those who actually take the test to obtain U.S. citizenship, pass the test on the first try.

So what we have here is a group claiming that Oklahoma City's high school seniors are clearly not as smart as your average legal immigrant.

Sorry. I don't buy it. Now I have no doubt that there is such a thing as a student every now and then who fails to retain the knowledge as to who the first President was, but 75% of an entire city's high school seniors?

It's simply too incredible to be credible. I have just a bit more confidence in our nation's public school systems than to swallow such a claim without something more to explain such results.

July 4, 2011 at 5:36 p.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "One good one on post here is Alprova's unwavering support and defense of Obama. He doesn't think Obama passes gas and if he did he would insist it was the right thing to do and it smelled like peaches."

I'm sure that most people who read what I write are well aware that you're exaggerating just a wee bit there.

"He is very convinced Obama is providing excellent leadership and making good decisions."

He, like every President who preceded him, has a full staff of advisers, who help him make all kinds of leadership decisions. Of course, it is expected that not every decision our President makes, will please everyone, every single time.

But, for some people on this planet, who mainly reside inside the United States and frequent this and some other forums, no decision that President Obama makes will satisfy them...ever. To them, the man can do nothing right.

Now we've been reading the comments you people make for two and a half years, and there is no rhyme or reason to any of them, so it's crystal clear that you're never going to be satisfied with anything he does, so screw you.

Be as miserable, as discontent, and as poopy as necessary to make yourself feel all warm and fuzzy, and be sure to vote your conscience the next time around.

Just don't believe that the nation as a whole is going to join you.

You will be out-voted.

July 4, 2011 at 6:08 p.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "In 1979 sixty one American companies had a AAA credit rating by Moody's. Today that number is only 4. Figures don't lie but liars figure."

Indeed. You make it sound bad, but the fact is that Moody's isn't the only agency in the business of evaluating the credit worthiness of American companies. There are in fact, ten more companies in the biz, and don't forget that these evaluating agencies are hired to report what they report to the public. Competition is fierce these days.

" In the 1930's anyone without a job and not retired was counted as unemployed. Today the government calculates unemployment by calculating the number of people receiving unemployment benefits. Once benefits run out they are no longer counted. Expiring benefits can result in a lower unemployment number when actually the number increased."

Their methodology is a bit more precise than that. Granted, if a person fails to make a claim that they are unemployed, they may not be counted, but the DOL is keenly aware of the relevant numbers and routinely accounts for those who sit out the job market for any period of time.

"Intel's CEO stated "I can tell you definitively it cost one billion dollars more to build, equip and operate a facility in the U.S. He said 90% of the added cost are not higher wage rates but higher taxes and regulatory charges other nations do not impose."

OMG, it would cost me a billion dollars more to build a business here in Chattanooga? Gee, whoda thunk it?

No one, and I mean no one with a brain believes that for a second.

"No business is going to expand with the potential of paying the highest corporate rate in the world (35%) and having to depend on a tax system and a team of accountants to possibly pay something less."

The biggest lie of all was told right there. There are four basic corporate tax rates - 15%, 25%, 34%, and 35% and two "bubble rates" of 38% and 39%, which have the effect of taking away from high-income corporations the benefits of the lower tax rates.

"They recognize political black mail when they see it."

Huh?

July 4, 2011 at 6:45 p.m.
fairmon said...

The HS seniors test results were reported in an interiew about a 2000 seniors from a school system in New York. The national history scores have remained abysmally low for severl years now.

July 4, 2011 at 6:52 p.m.
carlB said...

harp3339 said... carlb, Why not treat companies better and make American made goods and services competitive to the point people would prefer them?


Reply to harp3339: What the anti Union people don't mention is how much the CEO's' benefits have gone up while the middle class has been decreasing due to the global economy. With the increased automation there, why can't the manufacturing companies produce many of the goods here in the USA at competitive prices? There are other costs these global monopolies don't have to pay when getting their goods producerd in other countries. Now that these globsal companies have broken the backs of the American workers with the "class warfare" and on the verge of another great depression, they just about have the worker where they have been tring to get tthem. Are you one of the people who think it would be giving up your freedom if you were asked to stop buying the imported goods of the "private global corporate monopolies"? If or when the US consumers help drive this Republic into another great depression, then what will happen to the global corporations? You can't have it both ways. We have had an unsustainable trend on our trade deficit with these global companies for many years and not anybody is wanting to do anything about it except President Obama when he is wanting to get the private manufacturing jobs back. Just look what is occurring in our area to get manufacturing jobs.

July 4, 2011 at 6:55 p.m.
fairmon said...

If you mean the Intel CEO was not being honest than believe what you will. If you don't believe he said it then you are sadly mistaken. I watched the interview and will try to find where you can confirm it but if not able to easily locate it screw you. I have been involved with companies making similar decisions and believe his conclusion and comment to be totally accurate. Several years ago, before even more anti business legislation was passed I supported building a facility costing several million dollars in Turkey over South Carolina. It was and has proven to be a good business decision. Wage differences were not an influencing or deciding factor. Wages were a minuscule part of the mfg. cost.

The CEO of Cyprus Semiconductor T.J. Rodgers agreed the problem is not higher U.S. wages but anti business laws. In a CNET news interview he went on to say the killer factor in CA. for a mfg. to create say 1000 blue collar jobs is a hostile government that doesn't want you there and demonstrates it in thousands of ways.

I acknowledge no human, including Obama, can keep up with the millions of details a president is bombarded with. But, they should be able to select, recruit and retain a capable staff. We would be better served if the candidate had to reveal those that would be serving as their department heads if elected.

Obama's color has nothing to do with my lack of regard for his ability. Neither did George Bush's color have anything to do with my disdain for his poor leadership.

July 4, 2011 at 7:28 p.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "Obama's color has nothing to do with my lack of regard for his ability."

I'll bet it has more to do with your regard for him than you'd ever admit. You are the one who posted how much you regard welfare recipients and what you want to do to them. We all know what race most all white people consider the race that abuses welfare too.

"Neither did George Bush's color have anything to do with my disdain for his poor leadership."

The proper term is "race." And I'm quite sure you had no problem with GWB's race. But you do when it comes to Obama's predominant race. Your typewritten words betray your denials, and quite loudly too.

July 4, 2011 at 8:23 p.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "Several years ago, before even more anti business legislation was passed I supported building a facility costing several million dollars in Turkey over South Carolina. It was and has proven to be a good business decision. Wage differences were not an influencing or deciding factor. Wages were a minuscule part of the mfg. cost."

You've alluded to being up the food chain in some big company before, but I'm calling B.S.

First of all, I've been an employer, having owned three businesses, the largest of which I had around 75 employees at a given time. The one thing I can state without hesitation that over a year's time, the number one expense I paid out each and every year was to compensate my employees. This included all taxes paid on their behalf, their benefits, and their weekly pay.

My payroll eclipsed the costs of operating my warehouse, five times the payment, insurance, and property taxes on the building I own, along with all utilities.

If the claim is that the cost of building and operating the facility comes to more than their payroll, someone has either too much building for their business, or they are lying through their teeth.

Too many jobs have left this country, most of them union jobs too, to have someone tell that tale with a straight face and make someone believe it.

July 4, 2011 at 8:42 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

(ALMOST) HATE TO INTRODUCE A FEW FACTS INTO THE ARGUMENT...

Since the Obama 'stimulus' bill was implemented in 2009, U.S. manufacturing jobs have actually been on the rise. I found this information on the internets machine:

"World stock markets mostly rose on Monday on the heels of a report showing a rebound in US manufacturing, reinforcing the view that the slowdown in the world’s No. 1 economy was only temporary. 

In afternoon trading in Europe, Britain’s FTSE 100 rose 0.5 percent and Germany’s DAX added 0.1 percent. France’s CAC 40 lost 0.1 percent. US stock markets were closed on Monday for Independence Day...

"On Friday, the surprising rebound in the Institute of Supply Management’s US manufacturing capped a weeklong rally that left the Dow Jones industrial average up 5.4 percent for the week, its best week in two years. 

That came after many economists began lowering their estimates for US growth in May after a string of negative reports on manufacturing and hiring...

"In the past year American manufacturers have added almost 200,000 jobs to the payrolls (197,000 from April 2010 to April 2011 to be precise). That's a "terrific increase," writes Mark Doms, chief economist of the Department of Commerce...It turns out that no administration has been able to make that claim since President Clinton's in the summer of 1998. The closest we got during the Bush years was the 12 months to October 2004, when American manufacturers added zero workers."

"Housing-related industries, such as furniture, continue to shed workers. But two export-orientated industries--machinery and transportation equipment--added 80,000 jobs between them. And almost 100,000 were added in the metals industry, counting both the primary sector (steel mills, aluminium smelters, etc) and fabricated metals (cans, coating, forging, and so on). It is, writes Mr Doms, 'a welcome reminder of the importance of American heavy metal'."

GM and Chrysler have been rehiring workers, too, but expectations have to be tempered. Any recovery will be facing strong head winds as long as republican governors and legislators continue to layoff teachers, fire fighters, and police officers.

Regardless, the stimulus was not a 'failure,' and the only thing Obama is guilty of is not turning the Bush depression around quickly enough.

July 4, 2011 at 8:47 p.m.
tderng said...

alprova...you sir are a giant windbag and a horses ass.Where do you get off telling someone what their own opinions are?Unless you can read minds your are an unmitigated arrogant jackass!maybe if you were a better businessman you wouldn't have had three businesses but only one.Wow 75 whole employees? must have been an international business juggernaut.Did your giant business have to deal with the EPA?How many regulatory agencies did you deal with? How long ago was this?

July 4, 2011 at 9:43 p.m.
carlB said...

blackwater48 said... (ALMOST) HATE TO INTRODUCE A FEW FACTS INTO THE ARGUMENT...

Since the Obama 'stimulus' bill was implemented in 2009, U.S. manufacturing jobs have actually been on the rise. I found this information on the internets machine:

Reply to blackwater48: New information is fine. People who keep the BS going about Obama's Stimulus being a complete failure, know otherwise. It is another negative tactic of using misinformation and untruths to divide the voters. They usuallly want us to forget about Bush's $700 Billions of borrowed money in September 2008

July 4, 2011 at 9:48 p.m.
rolando said...

Yet another winner in the Freedom Files...

http://www.seattlepi.com/comics-and-games/fun/Mallard_Fillmore/

July 4, 2011 at 10:05 p.m.
alprova said...

tderng wrote: "alprova...you sir are a giant windbag and a horses ass."

Why thank you.

"Where do you get off telling someone what their own opinions are?"

Excuse me? When did I do that? Claiming to be in charge of making a decision to build a plant in Turkey versus the United States is not an opinion. It's a claim. I don't believe it.

"Unless you can read minds your are an unmitigated arrogant jackass!"

Well, since I indeed do not read minds, I am clueless as to what exactly has your boxers in a bunch.

"maybe if you were a better businessman you wouldn't have had three businesses but only one."

Oh, were you under the impression that any one of them went out of business? They are all three thriving to this day. I just don't own them anymore. I sold all three while they were in operation and all three were sold for a profit.

I never put all my eggs in one basket.

"Wow 75 whole employees? must have been an international business juggernaut."

Whether it's 75, 7,500 or 75,000, the expense percentages stay the same. I'm a bean counter from way back.

International? Not quite. I owned two trucking companies and a convenience store.

"Did your giant business have to deal with the EPA?"

Uh...no. I did not own a power plant.

"How many regulatory agencies did you deal with?"

Several both on a State and Federal level, up to and including the US Department of Transportation.

"How long ago was this?"

My last large business was sold in December, 2005.

July 4, 2011 at 11:33 p.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "The HS seniors test results were reported in an interiew about a 2000 seniors from a school system in New York. The national history scores have remained abysmally low for several years now."

Then how about pointing out that particular study, 'cause Google never heard of it, and they hear everything if it exists.

History scores being low, which is a boring subject for most kids, is one thing. 75% of all seniors not knowing who the first President of this nation is quite another. That is drummed into kids heads in elementary school.

I found the study that corresponded to your exact wording in your original post on the issue, and you're going to change your wording now to claim that it's all about low history scores?

This wasn't a complicated issue to begin with. It didn't have to become one either. Do you see why I'm having trouble with it?

When I make a claim about anything, I am prepared to back it up.

Let's see if you can do the same. There is no way that 75% of high school seniors in this nation, anywhere in a concentrated area from coast to coast, do not know who the first President of the United States was.

Now, I am very willing to concede that if the statement were, "75% of high school seniors did not know the all nations that fought in the Revolutionary War, then I'd believe that.

So which is it?

July 4, 2011 at 11:56 p.m.
fairmon said...

Alprova,

If 75 employees is all you had in some kind of services operation then wages may have been a significant factor. I am talking about a company with over 200,000 employees world wide. I am talking about a manufacturing facility producing products of significant value at a high volume, not a service industry which is what this country has become dependent on. I would accept the opinion of the Intel CEO, one of the largest companies in the world, over yours every time. You are an arrogant ass but I know for a fact wages and benefits were not a significant part of the unit cost of many products. Marketing cost were and remain more than wages for production. By the way employee compensation was among the best in industry. The transportation cost more than off set any wage delta for products not sold in the producing country. Three businesses? Sounds like you may not have managed them very well and I would bet they were some type service operation which does not increase wealth but lives off those that do create wealth.

In a wealth creating mfg. business the facilities, equipment, security, ingredients and other non wage cost are the major cost sources. Obviously you don't and can't comprehend that. Also, you can't comprehend the redundant cost of regulatory agencies in the U.S. Most cities have an EPA, states have one and of course there is a federal EPA department. In Chattanooga there is CEPA, the state has TEPA and then the federal EPA which businesses have to complete reports for, accommodate in audits and routinely communicate with. The same applies to TOSHA and OSHA. There are DOT reg's, DOE reg's the list is long. In the U.S. any major project requires showing an expenditure of no less than 20% for ADA compliance. I can't recall every comparator but it is evident you don't know your ass from straight up about those like Intel that employ in the 100's of thousands. 75 employees I am really impressed. A big restaurant could need that many people. After running into road block after road block in the U.S. Intel built a huge facility in Vietnam.

You are as economically and business ignorant as Obama and Bush. You deserve what is coming your way. You quickly assume anyone stating anything other than what you believe has to be wrong and if their opinion of your chosen leader differs you conclude they lack intelligence. You consider yourself the sharpest pencil in the box but I think your lead is broken. Regulations are necessary and essential but not all that are in force are additive or protecting employees or others. Apparently you haven't dealt with the regulators that think their job is to block anything a company attempts or wants to do. The failure of Obama and others is not recognizing the harm versus the intended good of many departments. Unintended consequences is a recent often used term that could be applicable.

July 5, 2011 at 12:08 a.m.
fairmon said...

The senior scores results were on an interview with a journalist on CNBC a financial news channel. You don't believe it? So what, I don't really care if you do or not. I lost any possible respect for you and your opinions when you persisted in defending Weiner's behavior and lying.

July 5, 2011 at 12:20 a.m.
Clara said...

There was an article on CBS, that dealt with the fact that lots of people didn't know what Independencd Day was about, and that the youger the age, the more likely they didn't know, as well, the identity of the first president.

While making a quick visit yesterday, she mentioned that a woman came into her place of business and insisted that the day was for veterans.

July 5, 2011 at 1:54 a.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "I am talking about a company with over 200,000 employees world wide. "

But you're not talking about one that you had any hand in, right?

"I would accept the opinion of the Intel CEO, one of the largest companies in the world, over yours every time."

But you have no personal experience, right?

"You are an arrogant ass but I know for a fact wages and benefits were not a significant part of the unit cost of many products."

And how is it that you know that? You couldn't possibly.

"Marketing cost were and remain more than wages for production."

For sure, if you're referring to a drug company.

"Three businesses? Sounds like you may not have managed them very well and I would bet they were some type service operation which does not increase wealth but lives off those that do create wealth."

Well, you just proved you can't read and comprehend what is written.

"In a wealth creating mfg. business the facilities, equipment, security, ingredients and other non wage cost are the major cost sources. Obviously you don't and can't comprehend that."

Your problem is that you still think you can snow anyone into believing that you are a former CEO of a company. You're not.

"Also, you can't comprehend the redundant cost of regulatory agencies in the U.S. Most cities have an EPA, states have one and of course there is a federal EPA department. In Chattanooga there is CEPA, the state has TEPA and then the federal EPA which businesses have to complete reports for, accommodate in audits and routinely communicate with. The same applies to TOSHA and OSHA."

I did own a service station in the 80's. The Georgia EPD made me replace underground metal tanks with fiberglass ones. In all the years I have operated various businesses, that was my only interaction with such an agency.

They helped me coordinate compliance, permitting, and oversight of the scene so that I was only closed for two days making the switch for three tanks. No muss...no fuss.

"There are DOT reg's, DOE reg's the list is long."

Yes I know. I still have copies of those big books on my shelf, one for each year I was in the trucking business.

(Cont.)

July 5, 2011 at 2:58 a.m.
alprova said...

(Cont.)

"In the U.S. any major project requires showing an expenditure of no less than 20% for ADA compliance. I can't recall every comparator but it is evident you don't know your ass from straight up about those like Intel that employ in the 100's of thousands."

You forget, I'm not the one who claimed to be in charge of a large corporation.

Quit trying to blow up my skirt. Employee compensation for manufacturers ranks second only to the cost to purchase raw goods needed in manufacturing. Overhead costs are dead last.

"You are as economically and business ignorant as Obama and Bush."

Do you really think so? At least I have owned several businesses and still do.

You Sir are a reader and a dreamer. You drop your fantasies in here for fun. Making a claim that you once made a decision to build a plant in a foreign country was just too much.

"You deserve what is coming your way. You quickly assume anyone stating anything other than what you believe has to be wrong and if their opinion of your chosen leader differs you conclude they lack intelligence."

Now don't go getting all poopy because I can see through that tall tale.

"You consider yourself the sharpest pencil in the box but I think your lead is broken."

Oh. Sorry. Am I supposed to be offended as to what you think about me?

"Regulations are necessary and essential but not all that are in force are additive or protecting employees or others. Apparently you haven't dealt with the regulators that think their job is to block anything a company attempts or wants to do."

Oh please. I'm not about to respond to that in the manner you would like me to. Let's suffice it to say that regulatory agencies were not a problem to me because I operated my businesses within the applicable rules.

"The failure of Obama and others is not recognizing the harm versus the intended good of many departments. Unintended consequences is a recent often used term that could be applicable."

Well thank you for another in a long line of vague and generally misleading statements about the President.

File 13 coming right up.

July 5, 2011 at 2:59 a.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "The senior scores results were on an interview with a journalist on CNBC a financial news channel. You don't believe it? So what, I don't really care if you do or not."

I knew you couldn't back it up. That's okay. I've come to expect that from so many people who frequent forums.

"I lost any possible respect for you and your opinions when you persisted in defending Weiner's behavior and lying."

Well...don't let it ruin the rest of your life or anything. And no offense, but I wouldn't go getting too high and mighty when it comes to making references to anything or anyone being dishonest, if you know what I mean.

It's time to put you back on the "ignore" list.

July 5, 2011 at 3:06 a.m.
fairmon said...

I never said I was a CEO and I wasn't. I was only one of several people involved in the decision. I said I participated in the decision which, whether you believe it or not, I did and provided people to train the Turkish employees. I agree it is time to put each other on the ignore list. You are too arrogant and too easy to dislike. I suspect you are not credible and I darn sure wouldn't trust you enough to do business with you. Anyone that defends lying and is quick to accuse others of doing so are not to be trusted.

July 5, 2011 at 5:28 a.m.
alprova said...

harp3339 wrote: "I never said I was a CEO and I wasn't. I was only one of several people involved in the decision. I said I participated in the decision which, whether you believe it or not, I did and provided people to train the Turkish employees."

Whatever you say. You Sir are in the throes of pretentiousness.

"I agree it is time to put each other on the ignore list. You are too arrogant and too easy to dislike."

Okay, but just so you know, I have lots of friends.

"I suspect you are not credible and I darn sure wouldn't trust you enough to do business with you."

I'm not looking for business partners, nor am I in need of any customers. I turn down business all the time.

"Anyone that defends lying and is quick to accuse others of doing so are not to be trusted."

You go right ahead and think you exist on high moral ground. I'm not the one who thinks that I have the right to sterilize welfare recipients.

I want you to know that if I see a weird little man hanging around public housing neighborhoods with a doctor's bag in your hand, I'm calling the cops on you, you kook.

July 5, 2011 at 7:30 a.m.
mymy said...

Obama’s Policies are failing to say the least. IF the Democrats have their way we will be celebrating “Dependence Day”. Obama’s Economists: ‘Stimulus’ Has Cost $278,000 per Job The stimulus is now causing the economy to shed jobs. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-s-economists-stimulus-has-cost-278000-job_576014.html “The actual employment numbers from the administration’s own Bureau of Labor Statistics show that the unemployment rate was 7.3 percent when the “stimulus” was being debated. It has since risen to 9.1 percent. Meanwhile, the national debt at the end of 2008, when Obama was poised to take office, was $9.986 trillion (see Table S-9). It’s now $14.467 trillion — and counting. All sides agree on these incriminating numbers — and now they also appear to agree on this important point: The economy would now be generating job growth at a faster rate if the Democrats hadn’t passed the “stimulus.”

July 5, 2011 at 8:44 a.m.
miraweb said...

I knew there was a reason we keep constitutional scholars around! The Constitution's main job is to tell Congress (and the President, and the Judiciary) what they are not allowed to do. Garrett Epps, writing for the Atlantic, happened to notice that the 14th ("You Broke It You Bought It") Amendment doesn't actually allow Congress to run up the public credit card then decide to skip a few payments.

An interesting read: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/06/the-constitutions-latest-blaze-of-notoriety-bad-for-the-republic/241308/

July 5, 2011 at 9:11 a.m.
limric said...

L4F quote:
HITLER HATED CHRISTIANITY. http://libertarians4freedom.blogspot.com/2011/07/hitler-hated-christianity.html

This is of course, nonsense.

What I have learned through historical research over the years is: Christians seem to think that Adolf Hitler was an atheist (or at least wasn't "Christian"). Historians and scholars know better, as Hitler mentions his devotion to Christianity numerous times in his writings.

Here’s just a few (VERY few) of the Führer’s quotes:

"National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity."

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time."

“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.”

“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

Leave the cheap shot rhetorical comparisons to Hitler, Nazis and Christianity for those who really deserve them--hate groups who proudly assume the Nazi mantle, and Holocaust revisionists who would fantasize away Hitler's genocidal crimes. Uh oh, is there a hidden agenda of the oft referenced libertarians4freedom.blogspot.com ??

July 5, 2011 at 11:27 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

What the hell does this mean?

July 5, 2011 at 11:37 a.m.
miraweb said...

Fantastic example of Reductio ad Hitlerum (see also Godwin's Law). Hitler was Hitler. You are Not Hitler. I am Not Hitler. Hillary Clinton is Not Hitler.

Hitler was Hitler.

July 5, 2011 at 12:41 p.m.
limric said...

Dude,

If the Nazis hated christianity so much, why did the German Army belt buckle say “Gott Mit Uns (God With Us)”, OR - the “Mother's Cross (Mutterkreuz)”. A Christian cross given to German mothers. OR – the “German Christian Movement Badge” (Deutsch-Christliche Mitgliedsabzeichen), the Hitler backed German Christians movement (DC) with the party's organizational support, OR - The “Frauenschaft Badge” (Nationalsozialistische Frauenschaft, or NSF), affirmed all the recognized fundaments of Nazi ideology, with the preservation of Christian belief. Ever hear of the Leo Schlageter memorial, it glorified the Christian cross in memory of the Nazi Leo Schlageter, a martyr for the German cause. There was an air wing after him and the navy also named a ship after him. Hitler even mentions Schlageter in Mein Kampf.

Christianity served as their religion and motivator of their expression. Period!

I could go on and on. I’ve been up against holocaust deniers and historical revisionists before. Black is not white…up is not down…Nazis didn’t hate Christianity. They’re filling your mind simple impressionable mind with BS.

It’s quiet time now L4F. Shhh..night night.

July 5, 2011 at 2:39 p.m.
limric said...

Correction:

I accidentally connected Leo Schlageter in my 2:39 post with the Nazi party. This is not the case. He was not a Nazi but was a WWI war hero venerated by the Nazis.

Excuse me.

July 5, 2011 at 2:55 p.m.

Nazis loved the German church inasmuch as church leaders cow-towed to the fuehrer. What Nazis hated (and persecuted) was “the confessing church,” those who represented the teachings of Jesus. The official church structure was so anemic by this period that they lacked the theological nerve to oppose a popular nationalist movement – even an evil one.

American churches are in danger of being similarly manipulated for political purposes. (Such manipulation is an age-old practice, seen in most every religion and culture where there is no authoritative religious voice to challenge evil regimes. Much that is blamed on Christianity in the West is actually a result of the political manipulation of it rather than the essence of it.)

July 5, 2011 at 3:48 p.m.
limric said...

There is NO confusion L4F,

"Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide."
(Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)


whats_wrong_with_the_world,

Quote: “American churches are in danger of being similarly manipulated for political purposes. (Such manipulation is an age-old practice, seen in most every religion and culture where there is no authoritative religious voice to challenge evil regimes. Much that is blamed on Christianity in the West is actually a result of the political manipulation of it rather than the essence of it.)”

Interesting point, and on the surface logical….and true. There is a symbiotic relationship between politics and the church that corrupts both. Always.

Christianity rightfully deserves all the derision and scorn heaped upon it. Hiding behind “political manipulation” is a cop-out used to justify manipulation, persecution and violence. It is the height of hypocrisy to preach personal responsibility (free will) while simultaneously bastardizing the laws written in the very scriptures we are told to obey - while they escape their part in evil by childishly claiming “they made me do it”. Reference the Vatican's deflection of responsibility in the holocaust.

July 5, 2011 at 4:30 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

harp3339 said... "I agree it is time to put each other on the ignore list."

Not a bad idea. I think I might have figured out what is wrong with alprova. He is a technician, a number cruncher of great accomplishment. In his world he (thinks he) can move the money around and not have to worry about how the movement invokes a reaction that would defeat the purpose of the redistribution. Maybe his illusion has had something to do with why he has apparently peaked in his field and cannot regain the position he once commanded. Maybe that loss has left him feeling victimized. Anyone that thinks as highly of himself as he does would have a really hard time accepting the idea that he is holding himself back. Once you lose your sense of self determination and embrace victimization the class warfare and forced/false philanthropy start looking pretty attractive.

Back to the technician idea, when psychology, human behavior, motivation, liberty and freedom come into play he is ill equipped to understand and falls back on the simplistic, now regressive concepts put forth by Marx and his ilk. His paradigm dominated by victimization has his thinking hopelessly trapped in that rut. I think someone would have to restore his self-confidence and his confidence in man-kind before he could ever listen to what you have been trying to say to him. Good luck with that!

July 5, 2011 at 5:55 p.m.
fairmon said...

You are probably right. I regret allowing him to irritate me to the point of personal attacks instead of just disagreeing with his philosophy and views. I allowed him to cause me to react in kind which is not very smart on my part. For that I do owe him an apology and I do apologize. Nothing is gained and certainly no point is made when a discussion of personal views and opinions gets personal. He really hacked me off when he suggested I was not being honest. There is nothing to be gained in a forum such as this by not being credible. It could be compared to congress current irrational behavior.

What Alprova and most people don't realize is that large international corporations centralize support functions such as payroll, accounts payable/receivable, logistics, purchasing, marketing, engineering, R&D and other essential functions which are all overhead with a fairly consistent fixed per unit cost regardless of where the producing facility is located. Most never consider the cost of the facility which is a function of the product produced plus equipment, materials and ingredients used in the conversion process. When deciding where to build a facility the comparison is the cost of those items and other anticipated cost such as regulatory cost and taxes and of course a long list of other items including employee compensation. Most are one time or ongoing fixed cost not within control of the business. Worker comp is not a high percent of the the conversion process cost but it is one of the few cost which management can effect through mechanization or technology or a reduced number if demand drops. Demand and volume or capacity utilization cures a lot of ills.

Two primary reasons companies build in other countries; 1-That is where the demand is or/and 2-That is where they are treated best.

July 5, 2011 at 7:51 p.m.
fairmon said...

Bill Clinton is trying to give Obama some good advice. Let's hope listens. As I understand it he says cut out subsidies and incentives that do not promote growth. Simplify the tax codes and reduce corporate tax rates that improve competitiveness, demand and growth. This requires both parties to reconcile their differences and quit voter posturing. Will they objectively address this very serious and threatening issue. The economy grew at 7% in Clinton's last two years. He had some deficiencies but he along with Ruben handled the economy rather well. He increased revenue with things like universal connectivity cost on phones, taxing social security if income is over some amount and other revenue generators without significant adverse impact on consumer demand. Republicans need to quit defending farm subsidies, ethanol subsidies, oil company subsidies and others and democrats need to quit trying to increase taxes. Clinton also agrees spending must be reduced.

July 5, 2011 at 8:28 p.m.
rick1 said...

Harp, don't forget in 1997 Clinton lowered the captial gains tax from 28 to 20% and established higher limits on tax exclusion for IRAs and estates and this is when the economy took off. Taxes are the sticking point and those on the left who want to raise taxes forget about Clinton cutting them.

July 5, 2011 at 9:07 p.m.
rick1 said...

Also,in 1993 Clinton signed one of the largest tax increase into law and this added very little to the treasury. When he cut the captial gains tax this caused the captial investment to almost triple in 1998 and double in 1999. We have a spending problem not a tax revenue problem so I hope Clinton remembers that he cut taxes in his second term and does not promote tax increases.

July 5, 2011 at 9:18 p.m.

Limric said:

“There is a symbiotic relationship between politics and the church that corrupts both. Always.”

Change “politics” to “state” and you almost nailed it. I’m not sure about the relationship being “symbiotic.” Scripture teaches (and the Constitution acknowledges) that church and state are institutions with legitimate, non-overlapping spheres of authority which serve, when functioning well, to bring order and justice to societies. “Politics,” according to Aristotle, merely describes the activity of ordering our lives together. While policy debates about the (new or old) secular order should not be controlled by church authorities, neither should religious principles be excluded from discussions about issues of public import. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing this. We mostly do it poorly these days. America’s founder’s, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, and Pope John Paul II did it pretty well with regard to the public injustices they addressed.

So keep the wall of separation, but don’t evict your next door neighbors (especially if your father lives there) (see below). You also have to keep doors and windows along the wall since, according to the Constitution (and the Bible), Christians are afforded (in effect) “dual citizenship.” At present, the loudest religious voices in the public square are overdue for sorting out which realm is deserving of their ultimate allegiance. The German church, as did the other European state churches, answered wrongly.


“Christianity rightfully deserves all the derision and scorn heaped upon it.”

Extreme, but not surprising in an age when books by flakes like Christopher Hitchens are embraced as scholarly or authoritative.

July 5, 2011 at 9:42 p.m.

Limric said: “Hiding behind “political manipulation” is a cop-out used to justify manipulation, persecution and violence. It is the height of hypocrisy to preach personal responsibility (free will) while simultaneously bastardizing the laws written in the very scriptures we are told to obey - while they escape their part in evil by childishly claiming ‘they made me do it.”

Hardly. The Bible is unique as a sacred text in acknowledging that the tragedy of human corruption does not exclude the Lord’s people – even its heroes. In fact, corruption is so pervasive that our wills, far from being free, are in bondage to sin. Once you are freed (by grace) from sin’s mastery, you are still bad enough to need subjection to spiritual and secular institutions (church and state) to restrain others from your (ultimately doomed) sinful nature. No manipulation, persecution, or incivility by professing Christians is justified, but if you ignore the historical reality that political leaders manipulate religion for political purposes (and vice versa), you have oversimplified the record out of your need for a scapegoat. You have also stacked the deck to avoid your worldview’s responsibility for 20th century Europe’s series of totalitarian regimes and their atrocities. Nietzsche’s longed-for humanistic “apocalypse” unfolded as the west aggressively jettisoned the only moral compass that has sustained its redeeming features.

I’m not sure how it is that the church “bastardizes” the laws of Scripture. If you mean not acknowledging the “father” (source) of their laws, then the indictment belongs to those who refuse to acknowledge the historical source of America’s guiding legal and political principles. Someone even wrote that those truths are “self-evident.”

July 5, 2011 at 9:51 p.m.

A belated Happy Independence Day.

July 5, 2011 at 10:04 p.m.
fairmon said...

rick1,

I agree. Any spendable money taken from people reduces demand for good and services they would buy with it. If my information is correct Clinton is suggesting tax reductions as a stimulus to buyers and businesses. I don't trust any of them the way they are playing games.

July 5, 2011 at 11:06 p.m.
tderng said...

Jesus claydo,you on vacation or what?The same lame cartoon for the fourth day?well,I'll check back tomorrow or the weekend,unless I get really bored.Or I want to be irritated by certain posters on here(you know who you are).

July 6, 2011 at 9:09 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I don't think anyone could ever accuse Clay of putting too much effort into his work.

July 6, 2011 at 9:30 a.m.
Clara said...

BRP, Clay puts more effort and sense in one cartoon than you do in the vast amount of words you use to contradict what he has to offer.

July 6, 2011 at 1:09 p.m.
tderng said...

clara...apparently he put all his effort into this one and hasn't recovered yet.I must not be the only one bored with this one.Only two comments since mine at 9:09 a.m.

July 6, 2011 at 4:39 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Clara said... "Clay puts more effort and sense in one cartoon than you do in the vast amount of words you use to contradict what he has to offer."

I should certainly hope so! This page is Clay's living (how sad is that!) but just a minor source of entertainment for me!

I am sure Clay appreciates your appreciation though, don't you Clay?

July 6, 2011 at 5:16 p.m.
Clara said...

Clay doesn't need any support; his work speaks for itself. So does he!

July 6, 2011 at 7:27 p.m.
Clara said...

I hope he's not sick!

July 7, 2011 at 3:20 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Clever one, Clay Bennett. . . Guess it’s no secret who gets the part without the icing. . . the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision on "Citizens United" assured this. . . Wonder how long it will take for us to renew our Declaration of Independence and drive corruption and big money out of U.S. politics. . . Indeed, the day we accomplish this there will be cause to really celebrate with lots of fireworks, parades, barbecues and ceremonies:

“Since the U.S. Supreme Court decided the Citizens United case . . . saying that the Constitution gives corporations the freedom to spend without limit to influence American elections, people have been asking “how can we amend the Constitution to put this right?”

In this country, each person has one vote, no matter whether you are rich or poor. . . So why do we allow electoral influence to be bought and sold? Why has politics in America become a commodity in an economic marketplace, where the richest corporations, business associations, unions, and individuals can buy enormous leverage on the outcome of our elections?

It is not enough to declare that corporations are not legally persons, or to give Congress and the states the power to regulate the political contributions and expenditures of corporations and labor unions. Those are only partial remedies.

Past attempts to regulate campaign finance in America have been like the “squishy balloon”—squeeze it in one place, it pops out another. Limit what goes to candidates, it goes to parties. Clamp down on party fundraising, it goes to independent 527s. Disclose donors to 527s, the unlimited, anonymous money goes to 501(c)(4)’s. All the while, wealthy individuals still spend huge amounts to seek their own elections and force their opponents to try to match them.

The only way to drive big money entirely out of politics is to adjust our system of campaign finance to the scale of the individual voter, who has one vote to cast for each office or measure, and no more. The only source of money to influence American elections should be the individual citizen . . .”

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2011010320/only-people-can-vote-only-people-should-finance-campaigns

July 7, 2011 at 9:51 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

mountainlaurel said... "Wonder how long it will take for us to renew our Declaration of Independence and drive corruption and big money out of U.S. politics."

How about we renew our Declaration of Independence and drive Big Government out of our daily lives! The left has convinced their followers that industry, not overreaching government, is the source of all of our woes.

I've never heard a reasonable explanation from a leftist about why they would trust massive amounts of power in the hands of unqualified ego maniacs and community organizers but they would be mortified of an accomplished corporate leader. I don't mean to say that all CEOs are great guys, but, on average, CEOs are good, honest, caring citizens. I don't think I can say the same about the person that emerges not long after a move to Washington.

July 7, 2011 at 11:24 a.m.
potcat said...

`` I call the slicer of our Independence cake a "masonary file" and if anyone on this site has the know how or backbone in the actual use of one, i would be shocked.

July 7, 2011 at 12:49 p.m.
tderng said...

Day five and counting.Even if clay is on vacation you would think he could have given a couple of extra toons to be used in his absence.Wonder if he still works there or if he has been given his own independence.

July 7, 2011 at 1:16 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Maybe Clay used a masonry file to help dig out of his padded cell and is now gone forever.

July 7, 2011 at 2:17 p.m.
tderng said...

hehehe,brp.Nah he'd be caught and returned in no time.He would be the one on the street corner ranting about the evil republicans.

July 7, 2011 at 2:58 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Funny, guys. He doesn't even know who you people are, yet he's the crazy, obsessed lunatic. He has people calling, requesting his latest work, and you folks are scribbling on this wall (like me) wanting somebody to take notice of you. Your cheap imagery seems shallow and borne of jealousy. Our dime-a-dozen opinions are like SeaMonkeys, everybody's got one.

July 7, 2011 at 9:42 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Lighten up dude, I was joking. Seriously, I really, really do not believe that Clay Bennett is clinically insane and kept locked up in a sanitarium!

July 7, 2011 at 9:59 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

If you want to know the truth, I was kinda hoping that he was handed a pink slip and that Chattanooga would not have to be associated with his milk toast marxism anymore!

July 7, 2011 at 10:02 p.m.
dude_abides said...

And I really, really do not think everyone has a SeaMonkey.

"This page is Clay's living (how sad is that!)" -BRP ...and I need to lighten up?

July 8, 2011 at 12:54 a.m.
mymy said...

Meanwhile unemployment is up too 9.2%. Of course, it has nothing to do with Obama's failed policies!

July 8, 2011 at 8:43 a.m.
mymy said...

Maybe Clay is in that 9.2%. If not, he should be along with a lot at the TFP. They are a good example why print media is failing.

July 8, 2011 at 8:45 a.m.
alprova said...

MyMy wrote: "Meanwhile unemployment is up too 9.2%. Of course, it has nothing to do with Obama's failed policies!"

I'll make the same challenge that I make every time one of you Bozos posts that stupid comment.

Don't sit there and type generalities that is uttered by any current Republican candidate that thinks they are going to be the next President.

NAME THE POLICIES OF PRESIDENT OBAMA THAT YOU KNOW ARE KEEPING UNEMPLOYMENT UP.

That's all you have to do.

Blaming or giving credit to any President...know matter who he is or what race he happens to fall into, for the elimination or creation of a private sector job is utterly ignorant and it always will be.

July 8, 2011 at 10:29 a.m.
tderng said...

day six and counting

July 8, 2011 at 10:33 a.m.
alprova said...

MyMy wrote: "Maybe Clay is in that 9.2%. If not, he should be along with a lot at the TFP. They are a good example why print media is failing."

Notwithstanding the fact that it's clear that a good portion of you right-wing elephant riders were all raised not being taught how to be polite among other members of society, you whine like two year old's in a toy store, and reality to ANYTHING is always lost on you.

The only reason print media is not as successful as it once was, is because many people get their news online.

I fail to understand why people that feel that this and other newspapers are beneath their dignity, hang around online to constantly interject their unpopular and ignorant opinions all the time.

And make no mistake, you just offered two of the most ignorant opinions ever offered in a day's time.

July 8, 2011 at 10:39 a.m.
miraweb said...

I am hopeful that Clay is taking a well-earned few days off and not wasting any time at all thinking about the peanut gallery.

I did read this morning that Republicans and Democrats are coming together like gangbusters now that the AARP has heard the rumbles about cutting Social Security and raising the price of Medicare.

Somebody has to pay for our government and public services.

If the choice is between the elderly and injured or the healthy and employed it seems sort of obvious. Unfortunately, some people seem to be waiting for the fairies and the elves to kick in a share.

July 8, 2011 at 10:51 a.m.
limric said...

Alprova asks, NAME THE POLICIES OF PRESIDENT OBAMA THAT YOU KNOW ARE KEEPING UNEMPLOYMENT UP.

His policy is ‘nothing.’ His complete lack of…anything, while not THE cause, is exacerbating the economic ills facing the middle class. And everyone knows it!

It's infuriating to watch Obama and the Democrats simply ignore the middle class as their lives are being destroyed. NO jobs program, NO investment in green technology, NO conditioning bail-outs, NO insistence that industries stay here keeping Americans jobs in this country. I will never forget Obama coming out and defending the multi-million dollar bonuses paid to Wall Street CEOs on the grounds that "they work hard." Oh, so do I, but nobody ever gave me a 10 million dollar bonus…for theft! Particularly when we realize that Wall Street is a criminal enterprise that pays enormous bribes to politicians to avoid prosecution, it's almost like Obama standing up for the Godfather.

I'm in the crowd that will not support Obama. Period! It might better if a Republican takes over (umm, no maybe not. Sorry) because then maybe people will finally get off their lazy asses and get out into the streets, to work together to end this corporate looting of our country. If Obama gets another four years, what will we get? The same thing we got already: NOTHING. He won't end the wars. Refuses to create a real national healthcare program (has anyone premiums gone down?). He has done NOTHING about undermining unions, firing and punishing teachers, shutting down schools. He has done NOTHING to indict, prosecute, imprison, seize the assets of the Wall Street criminal enterprise.

So exactly what good does it do anyone to support him? Answer me that, Buzz Lightyear. And no, the lesser of two evils is not an acceptable answer.

I don't see any value in having Obama in the white house. Mostly, he just dazzles many people and keeps them from getting active, because they're in his fan club, and they think he'll save us. HE WON’T. It's like the Van Jones/Move On e-mails suddenly going out asking progressives to join them in creating a new platform for a new nation. It’s a good idea. But, Van Jones? He's an Obama guy, right? So is this a sneaky effort by Obama to corral progressives into supporting him with front groups that claim to be independent, ala the Koch Brothers and Tea Party ?

How much lower will the Democrats stoop. Of course they will likely succeed in getting most liberals out to vote Democratic once again, and get NOTHING in return. The terminally idiocy of the electorate knows no bounds.

July 8, 2011 at 1:54 p.m.
tderng said...

careful limric,you might lose your LWNJ id card.:)

July 8, 2011 at 4:33 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

it's under his watch, alprova. though lefties like you insist he has nothing to do with the 9.2% unemployment rate (which is act ually much higher) and the massive underemploymenet rate, and the 16% unemployment rate among black men, and the 25% unemployment rate amoung those between 16 and 20....and the white house mouth pieces stating that it won't be a factor in '12.. he'll pay for it. some libs and white house mouthpieces insist it'll play no factor in '12....come on!

limric is right..obama is nothing and does nothing.......he does whatever is best for obama... he's not a problem solver.....

why would independents, who bought that he was a moderate, vote for him again?

why would the anti-war crowd turn out for him?

why would environmentalist wackos vote for him?

why would the black community turn out for him like they did in '08?

why would small businessman and women support him?

why would 45% of this country..probably the total of all those who lost jobs, became underemployed or have given up looking for jobs vote for him?

why would anyone in the oil and coal industry vote support him?

why would citizens in texas, new mexico and arizona vote for him?

why would liberals vote for him...he's a big dispointment to them?

to think this guy is for anyone except himself is idiocy.

he eats a mean chilli dog, but other than that ..what's there to brag about.

to think he has it in the bag is just nuts.

obama is an empty suit waiting to cash in when he's done taking up space for four years.

he's made everything worse...

July 8, 2011 at 7:10 p.m.
fairmon said...

I have been disappointed with Obama's priorities and I at the risk of irritating some of his worshipers I think he is in over his head. But, he can't do anything without congressional approval. Congress can initiate and take job creating action but they are too compromised by special interest to do very much. Some insist it is one party or the other but it appears to be both. Obama has suggested simplifying the business tax codes to get rid of some loop holes and to make it predictable and fair to all but congress has not responded. It would seem congress should be doing all they can to increase demand for American made goods and services which leads to jobs. Today's job numbers were a major disappointment but one month is not enough sampling to be meaningful. If the next two months are similar look out below.

We print a few billion and spread money around the country and China has to raise interest rates to cool their economy off. They keep growing at near double digits in spite of their effort to slow it down. Could our stimulus efforts be increasing the buying of imports therefore helping other economies more than our won?

Somebody has got to blink soon. Those nuts are playing Russian roulette with the economy. It may be time to do a Pelosi and say just pass it then we will see what is in it. They have got to reconcile differences. No one ever borrowed their self out of debt or borrowed their way to prosperity but it is easier to walk down the steps than to jump off the roof of a real tall building.

July 8, 2011 at 7:16 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

a perry-rubio ticket would crush obama-biden

marco rubio would crush obama...chris christie would crush obama...

he's in trouble....most people hate him for the damage under his watch, or are mad for being let down.....to deny that is foolish..

rumor is that ny governor cuomo may replace biden....yeah, right ....why would cuomo..who could probably run for president himself, want to hitch his wagon to the disaster that is the obama administration. whoever the vice-president is, obama will be there another four years....why would cuomo want that? he's the governor of n.y.

i believe obama never wanted to be more than a one term president. i think he wanted fame and fortune. he wants to have a good time. he wanted to make history and then ride off into the sunset rich and famouse......

he is NOTHING......he'd rather be playing bad golf.

July 8, 2011 at 7:20 p.m.
rick1 said...

Good points seamonkey.

Harp, I don't think Obama is over his head, I agree with SM he would rather be playing golf or campaigning. I believe Obama hates the free market and would love nothing more then seeing the free market fail. Last month while speaking at a National Association of Manufacturers meeting, Chief of Staff Bill Daley said “Sometimes you can’t defend the indefensible,” while speaking about Obama's economic policies including regulatory expansion.

Obama has discussed simplifying the business tax codes and there has not been much discussion by either side. But where has Obama been? Where is his leadership on this? He is MIA until the last minute and then rides in as if he is going to save the day. How well did that work when he showed up at the last minute to try to get the olympics for Chicago? How well did that work when he showed up after the climate change conference had started and nothing was accomplished.

Obama has nothing but contempt for this country. Obama was raised by a socilaist mother and grandfather. In his adult life he has befriended people who do not like this country such as Bill Ayers,Rev Wright, Rashid Khalid, Edward Said.

There are a lot of us who did our home work on Obama and his views of this country and I'm sorry to say that a lot of us are not supprised by what is happening with our economy.

I hope those who voted for Obama in 2008 to prove they weren't racist, will vote for someone else in 2012 to prove they are not an idiot.

July 8, 2011 at 8:27 p.m.
alprova said...

Limric wrote: "His policy is ‘nothing.’ His complete lack of…anything, while not THE cause, is exacerbating the economic ills facing the middle class. And everyone knows it!"

If that is how you feel, then you too get to join the rest of the people who have unrealistic expectations when it comes to what a President can and cannot do.

"NO jobs program"

What jobs program can he create but one that only offers Government jobs?

"NO investment in green technology"

It's not the Government's job to invest in green technology. The private sector is in the process of addressing the conversion to green technology, with grants, tax credits, and incentives offered by the Government to do so.

"NO insistence that industries stay here keeping Americans jobs in this country."

Cite the right that any President would have to legally make such an insistence.

"I will never forget Obama coming out and defending the multi-million dollar bonuses paid to Wall Street CEOs on the grounds that "they work hard.""

You have a faulty memory.

President Obama responded to Republicans, who for obvious reasons feigned outrage regarding AIG bonuses, after years of rejecting any limitations on executive pay. The President clearly stated that he was reinforcing the "for-profit system."

He said, and I quote; "The point that I've been trying to make consistently has been that we believe in the free market, we believe in capitalism, we believe in people getting rich, but we believe in people getting rich based on performance and what they add in terms of value and the products and services that they create."

You're doing what the Republicans want you to do. They want you to be mad and to blame Obama for "rewarding" Wall Street for it's alleged malfeasance. That's not the way it all went down. All but a few players involved in Wall Street were as much a victim as those who lost 40% of their 401K's values.

"If Obama gets another four years, what will we get? The same thing we got already: NOTHING."

You're not looking at this with your eyes open.

"He won't end the wars."

The President does not have the final say in those affairs, contrary to popular belief. He was overruled. Ask JFK about that one.

"Refuses to create a real national healthcare program (has anyone premiums gone down?)."

I too, like you was very disappointed that more was not done to overrule the Republicans, but the insurance lobby is still too powerful in this nation to eliminate them overnight.

"He has done NOTHING about undermining unions, firing and punishing teachers, shutting down schools."

Don't you realize that those are individual STATE issues? What can he do?

July 9, 2011 at 12:56 a.m.
alprova said...

"He has done NOTHING to indict, prosecute, imprison, seize the assets of the Wall Street criminal enterprise."

You're looking at the wrong institution on that one. The banks and investment firms that were allowed to merge business dealings are at the root cause of what went wrong. They are the ones who wrote the mortgages, allowed brokers to do so as well, and who placed the loans up for investment opportunities, knowing that they were tainted.

"So exactly what good does it do anyone to support him? Answer me that, Buzz Lightyear. And no, the lesser of two evils is not an acceptable answer."

Believe as you wish. I happen to think you're opinions about the man are completely skewed, perhaps beyond repair. I urge you to investigate and research what I have written today. You may well be surprised to learn that I'm not at all wet on any of it.

July 9, 2011 at 12:56 a.m.
alprova said...

Here's EXACTLY why President Obama will be President Obama the first week in November, 2012. Click here so you can argue with Fox News on this one.

And now I know who MyMy seems to be backing for President. She's a talking parrot for Michelle Bachmann. Click here to read what the hopeless tea cup tipping candidate said (for the umpteenth time, no less)about President Obama.

"Today's unemployment report is another stark reminder of the failure of President Obama's economic policies."

"Clearly the president's policies have failed."

"The unfortunate thing is, the president isn't learning from the failures that he's done for the last two and a half years."

Did Michelle Bachmann complete high school? "failures he's DONE?" How do you do a failure?

July 9, 2011 at 4:50 a.m.
limric said...

Alprova,

The tenor of your post is that the President is essentially powerless and can do nothing regarding the issues I outlined. Key word here is ‘nothing’. And that’s what we got. This is the same thought process Republicans have when faced with Bush’s successes and failures. Ie. blaming Bush (which I do) for much of the economic problems is not valid because Obama has been in the White House for two and a half years and he owns it now (see Seamonkeys numerous references), but praising Bush policies for the assassination of bin Laden is acceptable. I don’t let Republicans have it both ways, and I’m not going to let Democrats do it either.

Your assertions may have some validity but there is one thing Obama has that can forward progressive policies, which he has used as well as a used car salesman trying to sell an old Chevy truck to the CEO of Ferrari. The bully pulpit.

You're not looking at this with your eyes open.” Really? I was an avid supporter. As a matter of fact I was on my local Democratic executive committee a number of years ago. Obama was elected with legislative majorities and a mandate for change. This is what has changed………………………………….

Rose colored glasses look cool, but they tend to distort reality.

I suggest you read the Frank Rich article linked below

http://nymag.com/news/frank-rich/obama-economy/presidents-failure/

July 9, 2011 at 7:43 a.m.
tderng said...

day seven.I think derf32 is right,cartoon drawers block.Either that or he lost his crayons.He could have run out of conservative things to lie about and make fun of.OR OMG maybe he's being retooled as a conservative!!!!THE HORROR!THE HORROR!Better get your suicide kit out and ready al,just in case.

July 9, 2011 at 9:37 a.m.
rick1 said...

Seamonkey, tderng, BRP, I know all of you will find this interesting. The gunrunner program received $10 million from Obama's stimulus program.

It is listed under the below link under Section 5, Division A, Title II under the heading of "Office of Justice Programs" It is highlighted in blue.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1/text?version=enr&nid=t0:enr:232

July 9, 2011 at 10:31 a.m.
alprova said...

"OMG maybe he's being retooled as a conservative!!!!THE HORROR!THE HORROR!Better get your suicide kit out and ready al,just in case."

The difference between you and I is that if that were to happen, I have enough sense to move on to bigger and better things. I would never waste my time urinating in an environment where the wind was blowing it all right back on my pants legs.

And I sure wouldn't complain about it if I didn't.

July 9, 2011 at 10:36 a.m.
alprova said...

limric wrote: "The tenor of your post is that the President is essentially powerless and can do nothing regarding the issues I outlined."

To the points you raised, that is 100% correct. Apparently, you, like so many other people in this nation, have some belief that the President on the United States waves a magic wand or can wiggle his nose to remedy all the ills that plague us.

"Key word here is ‘nothing’. And that’s what we got."

Why don't you expand your view a little? What has this man faced since the day he took office? People like the Oceanic Primate Sphincter Muscle Surround A Void sniffing the President's anus and micro-ANALyzing everything the man says or does.

If they were privy to the color of his poop, they would have something to say about that too.

"This is the same thought process Republicans have when faced with Bush’s successes and failures. (snipped)I don’t let Republicans have it both ways, and I’m not going to let Democrats do it either."

Bush has lots to be ashamed of, but I doubt he ever will be. He has very little to be proud of, at least in my opinion.

The biggest problem in this nation today is the simple fact that enough people leaning to the right are preaching doom and gloom for political reasons, to the point that people are scared to get out there and spend money.

They need to have this horrible economy hang on for another year and a half, and they are hell bent on making it happen too. They want to re-assume the plundering of the rest of the wealth of this nation to finish packing their golden parachutes.

But you go ahead and believe the rhetoric that the man has done nothing to date. Before you completely make up your mind, why not take a look at the site that has been logging his track record of the changes he promised to make as President.

Click here.

July 9, 2011 at 11:09 a.m.
tderng said...

on one hand the President has no teeth.On the other hand its Bush's fault.Can't have it both ways alprova.

July 9, 2011 at 11:29 a.m.
tderng said...

everything you accuse conservatives of in your 11:09am today post,the dems did to Bush and WORSE.The rhetoric repubs spout about Obama doesn't even scratch the surface of the vile,vitriolic hate speech spewed by the left a few years ago.As a matter of fact it doesn't even come close to matching the vitriol pointed at Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman.So,if you can't take it then don't dish it out.

July 9, 2011 at 11:38 a.m.
Selah said...

The economy has historically been on a downward spiral when a Republican is in office for President. Check your history. I am neither Rep. or Demo. but I see that FULL Democratic control is bad and FULL Republican control is bad. Right now the middle class is being STOMPED on. Our taxes have went up while our salaries have lowered and tax breaks for CORPS and the wealthy have stayed in place b/c of the Republican regime to fight against the ending of the BUSH tax cuts for the wealthy. WOW...Barbara Streisand stated on Larry King...a tax increase on her would NOT make one difference in her lifestyle...WOW. The increased taxes HAS made a difference in my lifestyle. IT has been researched the more a person makes the less they begin to GIVE.

The middle class was applauded recently because giving was the greatest among us when the natural disasters took place across the country. We couldn't fly out of the country or to our second or third homes or to our children's homes in another state where someone GAVE them a job. Let's VOTE 2012

July 9, 2011 at 12:42 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

OK, is Clay permanently AWOL? We're in heaven, we're in heaven...

July 9, 2011 at 2:56 p.m.
Clara said...

Limric, I finally got to the link for the Frank Rich article.

It seems Frank Rich agrees with me 100%. (Geithner)

When the Presiden started appointing these people, I had my doubts, and then one week after Obama was in office, I believe I wrote him to remove Geithner, to no avail. Oh, well...What's a POO supposedd to do.

Poo

July 9, 2011 at 4:16 p.m.
rick1 said...

Selah: Eeveryone benefited from the Bush tax cuts not just the wealthy. Also the tax cuts Bush signed into law in 2001 and 2003 expired on 12/31/2010, so these are now Obama's taxes since he signed them into law.

A tax increase on Streisand and others who are wealthy would not chaqnge their life style because it is income that is being taxed not their wealth. Let's tax the wealth and see if Kerry, Pelosi and other wealthy politicans would be so quick to raise taxes.

July 9, 2011 at 4:56 p.m.
fairmon said...

rick1,

What people don't realize is that people like Streisand have a high percent of their money in tax exempt municipal bonds that earn tax free interest. A low risk muni today would pay about 4% or more. They have some bought earlier paying up to 8 or 9%. Wealthy people set up a corporation and pay themselves a salary and drive a corporate car and various other perks not considered income. Taxing income would not be as beneficial as thought but still those with income over one million per year could easily pay more and not change their life style. If it changed their life style it probably needs changing.

Some here insist it is one party bad the other good. I have yet see any evidence that either party is truly interested in seeing the middle class improve their lot in life.

July 9, 2011 at 7:14 p.m.
alprova said...

tderng wrote: "on one hand the President has no teeth.On the other hand its Bush's fault.Can't have it both ways alprova."

If you can make sense out of your own statement, then I'd appreciate it very much if you would explain it to me.

Cite any post where I have blamed Bush for anything other than for getting us into two extremely expensive wars under false pretenses.

And I'm pretty sure that President Obama has a mouth full of teeth, but his dentist may be the only person who can confirm it for sure.

July 9, 2011 at 7:37 p.m.
rolando said...

New bumper sticker going the rounds...I would freely give this idea to Clay -- but it isn't mine to give away.

If you voted for Obama in '08 to prove you're not a racist, vote for someone else in '12 to prove you're not an idiot.

July 9, 2011 at 7:39 p.m.
alprova said...

tderng wrote: "everything you accuse conservatives of in your 11:09am today post,the dems did to Bush and WORSE.The rhetoric repubs spout about Obama doesn't even scratch the surface of the vile,vitriolic hate speech spewed by the left a few years ago."

I'm not interested in getting into any debate about which side inflicted the most harm to a President. The fact is that Obama is considered to be black and if I had a penny for every time I heard the man referred to by the "N" word in casual conversation, I literally could retire. I have no doubt that at least four of you have referred to the man by that description as well.

"As a matter of fact it doesn't even come close to matching the vitriol pointed at Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachman."

I'm not even going to respond to that. Neither one of them is in danger of being a factor in the 2012 election.

"So,if you can't take it then don't dish it out."

Let's be clear about something. Hate Obama all day long. It doesn't hurt me one bit. Share your opinions all day long, so long as you stick to the facts about the man. Step outside the box and tell a lie, and I'm going to be there to correct it.

I have always stuck to the facts whenever I have discussed the Tea-Party twins and I always will.

July 9, 2011 at 7:51 p.m.
rick1 said...

Harp "Some here insist it is one party bad the other good. I have yet see any evidence that either party is truly interested in seeing the middle class improve their lot in life."

I'm afraid you right. There really isn't much difference in either of the parties, as the majority only care about getting re-elected. I know you believe in term limits. I believe in term limit because if they can serve more than one term then they will spend their first term trying to re-elected for their second term instead of doing the job they were elected to do. Your thoughts on one term versus two.

July 9, 2011 at 10:21 p.m.
Selah said...

rick 1...I wish you could see my tax returns vs my income for the past 10 yrs plus expenses and debt...THEN you'll see NOT everyone has benefited from the Bush tax cuts. Pres. Obama should quit trying to wheel and deal with the Republicans...they truly could care less. Again, historally when a Republican president is in office the economy takes a downward turn. ALWAYS

July 9, 2011 at 11:06 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Bumper sticker that should be making the rounds:

If you voted for anybody based on their race, you've already proven yourself to be an idiot. If you vote the other party next time, you're also insane.

July 9, 2011 at 11:24 p.m.
fairmon said...

There definitely should be term limits for elected officials at all levels of government. No elected position should be a career. Those in office have created barriers that make it extremely difficult to defeat an incumbent.

July 9, 2011 at 11:25 p.m.
rick1 said...

Harp, I totally agree.

July 10, 2011 at 8:54 a.m.
rick1 said...

selah, the fact is that tax rates were lower for everyone under GW Bush then Clinton. http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/22958.html

Republican Presidents Harding Reagan, and G.W. Bush all inherited recessions from Democrat Presidents. So econmoy has gone downward when a democratc has been in office.

"Obama should quit trying to wheel and deal with the Republicans...they truly could care less." So it is alright for Obama to not work with the Republicans, but if the Republicans do not work with Obama it is because they are the party of no or they are racisit are they don't care about us. I know the left always lives by the hypicritical double standard.

July 10, 2011 at 9:18 a.m.
Selah said...

harp... you are correct but we need to add reforms to campaign contributions from corporations and individuals as well. Money is being thrown so loosely for influencing elected officials and then the corporations want to silence the middle class by canceling out the unions but they do not want campaign finance reform (maybe b/c it would silence the RICH and not the MIddLe-class and poor). Money has historically equaled power but OUR VOTES CAN EQUAL MUCH MORE POWER (if we catch a on to this clue, locally)

rick 1...just because tax rates were lower doesn't mean we were better off. Clinton brought in a lower debt than what Bush left him and a great economy where jobs and opportunites were overflowing. Then they sent in his son BUSH and we are back in the hole...NOT a SURPRISE...no one complained about his high debt levels or the complete failure to hold businesses accountable for their lies and stealing (aka Eron, banks, oil ).

The Republican Party can't even smell their own stinch anymore. Greed has taken them over and the chickens are coming home to roost. The party of lies...you ride on the sympathy of christians with the homosexual and abortion cry yet have done almost NOTHING to stop it. You run on lies and get in office to promote your own hidden agendas. The facade is wearing off and the party will PAY beginning in 2012. The faith in the republican party is DYING. The attempts to rebuild the party has failed. President Obama will walk into another term like he was walking on water.

July 10, 2011 at 2:38 p.m.
rick1 said...

Selah, Enron dirty businesses dealing was happening under the Clinton Adminstration also. In reagrds to not holding businesses accountable for their lies and stealing please provide examples.

If you don't believe both parties are corrupt then you can not think past the talking points you posted in your last paragraph.

Your very last sentence is interesting because so many on the left really believe that Obama can walk on water. I feel sorry for all of you when it comes out that he is only a myth.

July 10, 2011 at 3:01 p.m.
Selah said...

rick 1...the whole banking and housing industry was plagued with lies and stealing...that is why it was collasping. The wall street exec. who were covering up numbers to hide the lies. The big bonuses that Fannie Mae and Bank officers ran off with even tho' they were failing (look at car industry as well). The list could go on and on...

I never once said either party was worthy of any ones trust. I voted Republican with some issues but what I am seeing now is not in my best interest anymore and the moves they are making benefit only the fatcats. No longer will I go along with them.

Didn't say I believed in Obama ...I just said the Republicans are making so very very very easy for Obama to walk on water in order to win his second term as President of the United States. Maybe you need to take a look at your talking points and what is going on across the country then come back with a point worth talking about.

July 10, 2011 at 11:52 p.m.
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