published Wednesday, July 25th, 2012

The Lawsuit

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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nucanuck said...

I pray that public prayer will end.

July 25, 2012 at 12:45 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

nucanuck: why's that?

July 25, 2012 at 12:55 a.m.
JoeBobChristian said...

One day, our nation will be guided by men who don't believe in "Invisible Sky Genies". Anybody who would be deluded enough to admit to believing such nonsense would be remanded for a mental evaluation...

July 25, 2012 at 1:29 a.m.
tenben62 said...

Yes JoeBob b/c is so much less insane to believe that "nothing" exploded.

July 25, 2012 at 2:05 a.m.
tenben62 said...

I.E. Big Bang

July 25, 2012 at 2:06 a.m.
tenben62 said...

For those that dont want prayer...DONT PRAY. Do not impose your religion (yes atheism is a religion) on me either.

July 25, 2012 at 2:07 a.m.
Easy123 said...

tenben62,

"Yes JoeBob b/c is so much less insane to believe that "nothing" exploded."

"I.E. Big Bang"

Your attempt to explain the Big Bang theory failed terribly. Your definition has never been part of the Big Bang theory. You have given the Kent Hovind/moron version of the theory. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Read up on it because at this point, you look very ignorant.

"Do not impose your religion (yes atheism is a religion) on me either."

If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color, clear is a color, and abstinence is a sexual position, right?

The case with the Hamilton County Commission has nothing to do with the public. It's about the Commission praying on public tax dollars. It's unconstitutional. Get over it.

July 25, 2012 at 2:17 a.m.
tenben62 said...

Atheism is a belief system. A religion. Local government can pray it is constitutional. YOU get over it.

July 25, 2012 at 4:32 a.m.
tenben62 said...

state the case in which the supreme court said that an local government cannot open a meeting with prayer since your are a constitutional expert.

July 25, 2012 at 4:34 a.m.
tenben62 said...

And one more thing Easy if you do not like the Hamilton County Commission praying. MOVE!! That goes for all of you carpetbaggers... MOVE!! This is OUR community.

July 25, 2012 at 4:38 a.m.
anniebelle said...

tenben, I've paid taxes in this community all my life, so it's not YOUR community, get over it hypocrite.

Separation of church and state is mandated by the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Although this phrase is not mentioned in the Constitution, the U.S. Supreme Court has interpreted the 1st Amendment as requiring such separation. The result of this separation, in our opinion, has been a vigorous religious life coupled with a relative lack of religious persecution. Many countries have traditionally had closer links between state and religion. This has led (and continues to lead) to serious persecution of minority religions in many areas of the world.

July 25, 2012 at 6:13 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Many Christians seem to believe that atheism is a religion, but no one with a fair understanding of both concepts would make such a mistake. Because it’s such a common claim, though, it’s worth demonstrating the depth and breadth of the errors being made. Presented here are the characteristics which best define religions, distinguishing them from other types of belief systems, and how atheism utterly fails to even remotely match any of them. Belief in Supernatural Beings: Perhaps the most common and fundamental characteristic of religion is a belief in supernatural beings — usually, but not always, including gods. Few religions lack this characteristic and most religions are founded upon it. Atheism is the absence of belief in gods and thus excludes belief in gods. More important, however, is that atheism does not teach the existence of such beings and atheists in the West do not believe in them. Sacred vs Profane Objects, Places, Times: Differentiating between sacred and profane objects, places, and times helps religious believers focus on transcendental values and/or the existence of a supernatural realm. Atheism excludes believing in things that are “sacred” for the purpose of worshiping gods, but otherwise has nothing to say on the matter — neither promoting nor rejecting the distinction.

July 25, 2012 at 6:31 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Productive discussion requires clear thinking about concepts and premises, but clear and coherent thinking are undermined by misrepresentations like tenben.

July 25, 2012 at 6:37 a.m.
alprova said...

tenben2 wrote: "state the case in which the supreme court said that an local government cannot open a meeting with prayer since your are a constitutional expert."

On January 17, 2012, The Petition for certiorari was denied by the U.S. Supreme Court by the Forsyth County Commission of the State of North Carolina, over the practice of offering "Christian prayers" offered when opening public meetings.

The denial of the Supreme Court to hear that appeal means that the Justices left in place the Federal Appeals Court for the Fourth Circuit's ruling that held that the Christian prayers at the start of commission meetings violated the First Amendment’s prohibition on government endorsement of a particular religion.

The commission argued that its doors have "long been open" to religious leaders of many "faiths," but the Court of Appeals, located in Richmond, Va., found that more than 3/4 of the 33 public prayers offered before council meetings between May 2007 and December 2008 referred to "Jesus," "Jesus Christ," "Christ" or "Savior."

The case is Joyner V. Forsyth County

http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions/Published/101232.P.pdf

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/forsyth-county-n-c-v-joyner/

July 25, 2012 at 6:55 a.m.
MTJohn said...

I pray that all of our elected officials pray and I pray that they would do so as prescribed in Luke 18:13-14.

July 25, 2012 at 7:13 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Tenben62,

"Atheism is a belief system. A religion. Local government can pray it is constitutional. YOU get over it."

No, atheism is not a belief system or a religion. It is a single belief that there is no god.

"state the case in which the supreme court said that an local government cannot open a meeting with prayer since your are a constitutional expert."

See Alprova's post. But I have other somewhat similar cases if you would like those also.

"And one more thing Easy if you do not like the Hamilton County Commission praying. MOVE!! That goes for all of you carpetbaggers... MOVE!! This is OUR community."

No. It's actually the other way around. I and any like-minded people have the Constitutional high-ground here. Get over it. And no, this is not your community. It's everyone's community. Your Christian dominionism/theocracy is a pipe dream.

July 25, 2012 at 7:17 a.m.
tderng said...

these prayers are being done BEFORE the meeting comes to order,so they are not praying on government time.Perhaps they need to keep the public out of the room until they are done praying and let them in only AFTER the meeting is called to order.Would that satisfy the religion haters on this site? Probably not,they would find a reason that that is also wrong.

July 25, 2012 at 7:25 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Tderng,

You're arguing semantics. It's government time either way. And it's still unconstitutional either way.

July 25, 2012 at 7:36 a.m.
MTJohn said...

tderng - public officials doing business in a public space. The better option would be to allow the public in before the meeting and keep the commissioners out until after the commissioners have had there prayer someplace else and in private.

July 25, 2012 at 7:42 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

You are assuming then that all the government officials belong to the same sect, tderng. Non-sectarian prayer would be fine and would probably not attract any attention at all, but in this part of the country there are Christians that presume that their way is the only way.

July 25, 2012 at 7:48 a.m.
John_Proctor said...

". . . presume that their way is the only way"

No, they KNOW that their way is the only way and they are going to convince you of the correctness of their belief, even if they have to annoy the hell out of you in order to save you from it.

July 25, 2012 at 8:02 a.m.
anniebelle said...

MTJohn, I would suggest they stop at their church if they feel the need to flaunt their holier-than-thou righteousness. I think there are still a few open in this godless country.

July 25, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

re: anniebelle's 8:03 a.m. post

With 10s of thousands of flavors of christianity, they may be afraid to stop at the nearest church.

They must avoid being tempted by the influence of those fake christians who have it wrong.

July 25, 2012 at 8:17 a.m.
dude_abides said...

"Sister Wives' family challenges Utah bigamy law"

Here come the Mormons! Byg Love! What did Merle Haggard say... "we don't make a party out of lovin'"

July 25, 2012 at 8:21 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Anniebelle - I would suggest that there is no appropriate place to flaunt a holier than thou attitude, whether in the commission meeting room or in their church, thus the reference to the parable recorded in Luke 18.

July 25, 2012 at 8:29 a.m.
degage said...

Athiest and christians on this site, Don't you ever get tired of Bennett provoking a religion argument? All of us say the same thing over and over again, seems every day. I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine. Each side calling the other names. Seems we should live and let live. Peace!

July 25, 2012 at 8:31 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

degage said... "Don't you ever get tired of Bennett provoking a religion argument"

Yes, I do. Bennett is a broken record on many topics. His cartoons are kind of like Chinese water torture.

July 25, 2012 at 8:46 a.m.
annisisbell said...

Well I'd like to add something different. "separation of church and state" is NOT in the Constitution. Its in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson.

Jefferson was of course from Great Britain and had experience with the Church of England and also knowledge of the role of the Catholic Church in European history. Jefferson understood the history of Divine right of Kings. The founding Fathers wanted ours to be a representative government and not a monarchy or to be controlled by the Pope or any other charismatic figure who could have "divine rights" attributed to him.

The Constitution states that the government "shall not set up a state religion" or words to that effect. It says that even though the founding fathers wished to prevent a "state church" or the "Pope" from controlling everyone, they also wanted "freedom of religion" and for religion not to be persecuted.

I know that I will once again be attacked, nevertheless, I am telling you, the JEW is the one who attacks Christianity and puts out the information that its wrong for us to have Christian prayer.

We once had the greatest schools in the world and we said Christian prayer and read the Bible EVERY DAY. Now our kids are taught to deny Jesus as divisive but they are not allowed to deny The Holocaust. America's new god.

Think. Think about it. Think before you characterize me and my statements. I can't prove a negative, that I'm not merely anti semitic. You must refute my statements, not characterize them or me.

July 25, 2012 at 8:49 a.m.
alprova said...

degage wrote: "Atheist and Christians on this site, Don't you ever get tired of Bennett provoking a religion argument?"

Provoke? No. Stimulate? Yes.

"All of us say the same thing over and over again, seems every day. I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change mine."

Well...which are you? Are you a Christian or an Atheist? If you are a Christian, there's no need to argue a thing. Read your Bible.

Matthew 6:5-13 ties this issue into a nice, neat little bow. The Constitutional aspect of the issue is a moot point, compared to what Jesus said about it.

MtJohn hit the nail on the head. If the Hamilton County Commissioners feel the need to pray before a meeting, they need to do so privately and out of sight of the public.

Otherwise, the calling for a public prayer is tantamount to an act of proselytizing, and that is not the time or the place for it.

July 25, 2012 at 8:55 a.m.
degage said...

Al, does't matter which side I'm on, christain or atheist. This argument is the same over and over again. It has been argued to death.

By the way everyone should ignore annisisbell he might just go away.

July 25, 2012 at 9:10 a.m.
MTJohn said...

annisisbelle - the relevant first amendment language is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Also relevant is the manner in which the courts have interpreted that language. Prayer, whether Christian or Wican, by public entities in the conduct of public business and/or at public expense is the "establishment of religion" and conflicts the citizens' right to the "free exercise" of their religion. Therefore, it is unconstitutional.

It is correct that prayer and religious instruction are not permitted in public schools. However, I doubt that you can support with factual evidence the assertion that public schools teach children to deny Jesus. I also doubt that you can support with factual evidence that the Holocaust didn't happen.

July 25, 2012 at 9:13 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

To those who claim this is a christian nation because it is mostly christian, do you also claim this is a white nation because America has mostly a white population?

The fastest growing religion in America presently, is islam. When that religion overtakes christianity and becomes a majority, will it become a islamic nation? How will you feel when their prophet is being forced upon you before meetings? Where will the freedom of religion be then?

The US Constitution that I affirmed my oath to, protects the rights of all to be equal.

These "more equal" christians remind me of the pigs in the book 'Animal Farm' "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".

"Religious freedom is guaranteed to the individual: not a collection of individuals or an organization. A church does not have religious freedom: the individual congregants do. A collection of religious persons do not have religious freedom: the individuals in that collection do. You cannot amass your individual freedoms to trump the freedoms of others.” - Blair Scott

July 25, 2012 at 9:18 a.m.
jdavid said...

annisisbell - I agree. You are not merely antisemitic. Many other adjectives come to mind. 2 Questions- Do you have a Carry Permit? If the answer is yos-- How can we recognize you when you are out and about?

July 25, 2012 at 9:34 a.m.
John_Proctor said...

I now understand the concept of hell as a place of damnation and punishment.

I am trapped in a small room with no exit and have to listen to annisisbell and June Griffin blather on for all eternity. That would be hell regardless of your religious belief or lack of it.

July 25, 2012 at 9:42 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Bennett's toons are, well, not very good. And he gets paid for this? Maybe some stimmalas money involved here. anniebelle and Easy: I would say that you two are irrelevant due to your intractable ideology. But your fear of the big, bad theocracy is amusing. Beware the evil Cross!! Mwahahahaha

July 25, 2012 at 10:11 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

CNN just announced that Kim Jung Un was recently married. Anyone seen anniebelle lately?

July 25, 2012 at 10:19 a.m.
annisisbell said...

I have never seen so many people who are so cock sure that they know everything.

This issue never gets decided because you think you already know all the answers and keep repeating the same things over and over. Then when someone offers new and factual information you just dismiss it and start repeating yourselves over and over again.

If I were in your shoes the last thing I would do is insult Bennett's or anyone else's intelligence. When you know enough to know that you don't know everything then you'll have a millimeter of intelligence.

First, its monumentally clear that you never researched anything in order to form your opinions. You thought "separation of church and state" was in the Constitution! Un f'in believable. Grade school level. Double digit IQ level. How many ways are there to say uninformed, uneducated, inability to reason?

Now, if you never came to understand or even know what the Constitution said about this issue, please tell me why you are so cock sure? I would never in a million years pretend to be able to interpret the Constitution. People study for years in order to do that. Yet you have no problem telling everybody what it means.

Where in the world did you ever form your opinions about separation of church and state? Is that question to hard for you?

You formed your opinions from the media. Now, who owns and controls all our major media?

If I could draw, I would draw pictures, its like talking to first graders. You can't sit still. You leap from one lame-brained claim to the next.

And no first grader could ever top you for the juvenile name calling.

I think the newspaper should consider the loss of readership as a result of your left wing anti American propaganda. Look at who is left to read your content.

July 25, 2012 at 10:42 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Anus,

"Now, if you never came to understand or even know what the Constitution said about this issue, please tell me why you are so cock sure? I would never in a million years pretend to be able to interpret the Constitution. People study for years in order to do that. Yet you have no problem telling everybody what it means."

We have the courts system (The Supreme Court in particular) to interpret it. You deserve the 'Most Deluded' award.

July 25, 2012 at 10:51 a.m.
anniebelle said...

MtJohn, so why do they insist on flaunting it? Jesus says pray in the privacy of your room. Have they changed something lately? I'm right here JackDennis, what's the relevancy of Kim Jung Un?

July 25, 2012 at 11:21 a.m.
degage said...

Easy, for once I agree with you, annisisbell does deserve the "Most Deluded" award.

July 25, 2012 at 11:25 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

anniebelle....just seemed like a match made in heaven. (oops, sorry about the heaven)

July 25, 2012 at 11:30 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Degage,

He or she is an admitted member of the White Nationalist (white supremacist) group.

July 25, 2012 at 11:31 a.m.
annisisbell said...

Bless your hearts.

I can give you links if I thought you would read them. Anyone who wants links to what I'm about to say just ask.

Our forefathers could not foresee spaceships or AK47s. They could not foresee that technology would make the world so small. In their day it took years for news to reach certain parts of the country.

They could not foresee that someday people would claim that the United States is a "proposition" nation. Our forefathers intended this country for their posterity. Not for other races' posterity. When they said all men are created equal they owned slaves and were ethnically cleaning Indians. Their meaning was that all Nordic men are equal.

So we have always been an Anglo Saxon Protestant nation. Then the jew in 1965 wrote and got passed into law the 1965 Immigration Act which made America diverse, this is important, -against our knowledge or consent-.

To the braineact who claims that the Constitution says whatever somebody interprets it to mean is too far out to even imagine. YOU interpret it. What does that tell you?

They have removed every member of the founding stock from the Supreme Court. Why? How are the Zionists, La Raza and god knows what else on the Supreme Court going to interpret the Constitution and our founding Fathers' intentions. Why I'll bet they care very much what our forefathers intended. Of course they do.

Recently Obama Care came up for a vote before the Supreme Court. What was done to Court Judge John Roberts, the one member who would have voted against Obama Care? Somebody got to him and scared the living daylights out of him. Google and research it.

Consider. When they throw open our borders they disregard the Constitution. When they wage internationally illegal wars in the middle east they disregard the Constitution. When they force political correctness, affirmative action and income taxes they disregard the Constitution.

Only when the Constitution can be used to suit their agenda do they invoke it, as when they are persecuting Christians. duh duh duh and duh

July 25, 2012 at 11:43 a.m.
mymy said...

Another day wasted on distractions when there are more important subjects which the "Clay" doesn't want you to discuss: bad Obama economy, loss of more and more jobs as a result, strange Obama foreign policy, voter fraud, etc.

For those who are against voter ID's and deny voter fraud, for those who don't believe that Holder is helping Obama by doing everything he can to make it possible to buy votes, here's one example re a local voter fraud in KY. So, you don't have to be a genius to imagine how this is done on a larger scale.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/25/drug-money-funds-voter-fraud-in-kentucky/

July 25, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.

Tennessee's state constitution is the controlling law here. Yes, this state DOES have a charter of government.

§ 3. Freedom of worship

That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience; that no man can of right be compelled to attend, erect, or support any place of worship, or to maintain any minister against his consent; that no human authority can, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience; and that no preference shall ever be given, by law, to any religious establishment or mode of worship.

So yes, you have the right to pray as you wish, but you do not have the right to a theocracy. A contradiction if somebody is devoted to their idea of rule by religion perhaps, but one I think we can tolerate.

If there's a prayer going on in a public building, then they should at least pay their own way. Switching to a more open protocol of access, while it might have been effective before the lawsuit, is not necessarily a good practice given the prior refusal to resolve the issue. And even then, by selecting certain persons, the commission has already given preference. That may need to be remedied.

And of course, the commentary here by people insisting that it's their religion, and that if others don't like it, they should get out, is a testimony that many people do believe it is their right to impose their religion on others. That casts a doubt on the legitimacy of the policy as a whole, since it's apparently desired as a means of religious imposition.

That alone is enough to discontinue it.

And actually, yes, being able to understand the Constitution is a very important part of it being an accessible document. An arcane and technical document would be antithetical to participatory government. Sometimes it may be unavoidable, but the basic charter needs to be comprehensible to the public at large, as long as they're honest. Of course, the judges need to be honest too, but those are both entirely different problems.

And believe it or not, a similar policy was part of the origins of Protestantism. Martin Luther's translation was as much about access as anything else.

July 25, 2012 at 11:59 a.m.
annisisbell said...

Think of a rotten parent who continually criticizes their poor little children. You're stupid, you're ugly, you're dumb, you can't pass that test, you can't do this or that right, you don't know anything, you're never going to amount to anything.

Now, after always being treated like this the child has no self esteem and probably will not realize their potential or amount to anything. There is so much power in criticism.

Consider your own opinions, you have already made up your minds that Christians should not be allowed to pray at the commission meetings, even though they are not violating the Constitution or setting up a state religion.

You have formed your opinions based upon the continual media criticism. Not the law or Constitution.

All they have to do is continually criticize. If you talk over and over and say bad things about somebody, it does not matter if that person is innocent or guilty. Just like the child that is continually criticized, you are going to ruin that person.

Remember when the rumor started about a hamburger chain that put worms in their burgers and that chain lost business? Its the criticism that can do such things because it has power.

The continual criticism of everything is intended to tear down and it does tear down. White people and our culture are being made to seem ILLEGITIMATE by continually being attacked and criticized.

Our culture, our religion, our race, our history, our heritage, our art, our architecture, everything, is continually under attack and criticism. They are trying to destroy Western civilization so they can set up a One World Order. We are the only people on Earth who could stop it.

You can't give a black affirmative action and make things EQUAL. You are taking that job from a White man.

You can't prevent Christians from praying and make things EQUAL. You are taking the power that TRADITIONALLY ALWAYS belonged to CHRISTIANS, and giving it to those to whom it never belonged. Christians lose something precious while others gain.

We never consented to our nation being made diverse. They have no right to do this to us. That is a wrong that cannot be overlooked. Now they are trying to take away all the rights that Christians have always enjoyed in this land that we created and built. Its wrong. they are destroying our civilization. they are destroying our people and our religion and our future.

July 25, 2012 at 12:01 p.m.
annisisbell said...

Don't you get it? The people who are attacking Christian prayer couldn't care less about the Constitution. they invoke it only when it serves their purpose of continual aggression against the founding stock of this nation.

Uphold all of the Constitution or get rid of it.

July 25, 2012 at 12:05 p.m.
annisisbell said...

happywithnewbulbs - now all of a sudden its state laws that count!! hahaha when states try to get rid of illegals than states rights don't matter.

They use the law to suit their own purposes and their purposes are to destroy the West.

July 25, 2012 at 12:08 p.m.
annisisbell said...

OK - please tell me if we are not supposed to say Christian prayer, why is it acceptable for jews to pursue their interests and israel's interest? Why are jews never told that their actions violate separation of church and state?

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/03/01/3091923/three-gop-candidates-to-address-aipac-via-satellite

July 25, 2012 at 12:10 p.m.
una61 said...

Why can't reasonable, responsible adults open a public meeting with a simple "moment of silence"?

July 25, 2012 at 12:17 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Bulbs: NEVER hear anything about theocracy except from you loons.

July 25, 2012 at 12:18 p.m.
Easy123 said...

JackTroll,

Have you read the Bible?

A global theocracy is the goal of all Christians.

July 25, 2012 at 12:22 p.m.
annisisbell said...

If you open sessions with a moment of silence then you have defeated Christians and taken everything that always belonged to us.

Why don't jews just have moments of silence instead of claiming they have a right to a state of their own? If jews know the importance of having a state of their own why are they at the forefront of trying to take our state from us?

In a time when every other race has an unquestioned "right" to come here whether we want them or not WHY IS IT ONLY CHRISTIANS AND THE FOUNDING STOCK who are always having to fight for our rights and what already belongs to US?

July 25, 2012 at 12:24 p.m.
jdavid said...

annisisbell, I called my preacher and he said God is a Jew- The Original Jew and his kid is one, too. Should I change churches? Also, I'm 1/32 Cherokee. Do I get to stay? Are Indians the the Lost Tribe of Isreal? Once you start including whole races of people, it gets very confusing. I'll bet VE day is a real downer for you-- God only knows what you do on MLK's birthday-- and he's a Jew-- God that is.-- Tell us more.

July 25, 2012 at 12:34 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Easy: Like you, I read a Wiki version of the Bible.

July 25, 2012 at 12:34 p.m.
annisisbell said...

I'm chagrined that so many of you take the Constitution so lightly when it is the most priceless document we have. Its upsetting that you can so easily accept attacks upon Christianity when it has played such a major role in our heritage and served as a vital foundation for our form of government and our societies.

Christianity has served us much better than Islam has served Muslims or judaism has served jews. We were a beacon for the world. Nobody is breaking down the doors to live in israel or any other part of the middle east. We created modern civilization. We are the greatest people who ever lived.

Its not about whether in the age of knowledge and scientific inquiry, you believe in God. Its about our civilization and way of life. Its about tearing down our heritage and the very foundations of the White man's entire history and way of life.

Everything we have and everything we are was built brick by brick over hundreds of years. Christianity is part of that foundation and they are trying to destroy it so they can destroy us.

Why can't you see these issues as part of a whole rather than viewing them as individual issues? County commissions all around the nation are under the same attacks. Not from entire communities but from one or two people who use the courts to attack us. Like cancer cells in an otherwise healthy body.

Where is the evidence that Christian prayer ever hurt or hindered us, deterred our progress, hurt other nations or people? It has always provided for us a higher purpose and lines beyond which we would not go, it provided our values and standards and made us civilized and kept us on the straight path and provided guidelines.

Now anything goes and everything is relative and the people are without a light to guide us. Look how America is in decline and we no longer even know who we are but have become Asian, African, jewish, Muslim and gay. Our children are being raised in single family households which makes them vulnerable to propaganda and they fight wars for foreign nations. We have lost our way. We have lost our God. What will happen to us?

July 25, 2012 at 12:40 p.m.
Fendrel said...

Atheist: A person for whom there is insufficient evidence to compel them to believe in the existence of god(s).

This does not imply that all atheists hold a belief that god does not exist...only that there is insufficient support to compel one's belief.

Atheism is not a religion...unless you use a very loose definition of religion to mean anything a person thinks is right or correct or any philosophy or ethical system an individual follows.

Typically, a religion involves at least 2 things, some type of believe that there exists a supernatural realm beyond our ability to analyse or examine and which does not follow the laws of nature as we understand them, and secondly, a religion typically involves some type of believe in life after death, whether it be in the form of a soul/spirit or other type of immortality.

Atheism does not support either of those concepts. As the old saying goes, "atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby"

That said, there is a broad spectrum of beliefs within the atheist community, both in terms of what's possible spiritually, our political viewpoints, and our stands on social issues. Atheists cover the spectrum, there is no common thread which binds atheists other than their agreed upon view that there is insufficient objective evidence to justify belief in a supernatural being or beings.

As far as prayer goes, I think the question is not whether it is constitutional, but why anyone would want to insist on praying in a public meeting, when it is clearly causing a conflict and when the prayer could be said, with equal effectiveness either in a back room before the meeting began or individually before you arrive.

July 25, 2012 at 12:44 p.m.
MTJohn said...

anniebelle said..."MtJohn, so why do they insist on flaunting it?"

I don't know. But, if I had to guess, I'd suggest that it has something to do with insecurity. Sort of like the functional definition of a zealot as "a person who, having lost sight of the objective, redoubles his effort".

July 25, 2012 at 12:46 p.m.
annisisbell said...

jdavid - If jews are a race than perhaps Jesus was a jew, but even that is being challenged. If jews are a religion then Jesus is a Christian, the Christ, a Christian.

How is wanting the United States to remain an Anglo Saxon Protestant nation somehow wrong? Other races have their homelands and I see nothing wrong with expecting a Mexican to live in Mexico. Is there something evil about that?

What is your thinking, that White people must give over our nations to other races and we have no right to oppose multi multiculturalism? We must give our nations away or we're racist? That's a false choice isn't it? I believe I have a right to say whether my nation is made diverse. Whites have something at stake in this do we not? Are we expected to just sit on the sidelines and let others decide our fate and the fate of our nations? I don't think so.

Why in the heck do you people not stick to the statements I make and if you disagree refute them?????? You can't prove a negative. When you call me names I can't prove a negative. But I can defend my opinions and it would be nice if you defended yours rather than attacking me.

July 25, 2012 at 12:47 p.m.
jdavid said...

annisisbell, The country is fine, people of good spirit love and protect each other redardless of their superficial differences. , Your god died in a bunker 67 years ago and the rest of the world celebrates that every year.

July 25, 2012 at 12:49 p.m.
annisisbell said...

How empires fall. Imagine a social pyramid. At the top are the intellectuals who create and sustain civilization, such as our forefathers.

At the bottom are the low IQ people. When the people below the intellectuals begin to multiply but the intellectuals at the top do not, eventually a critical point is reached where the people are too dumb to sustain their empire or civilization and it crumbles into history.

Consider that 100 million Anglo Saxon, Nordic, Aryan and Christian people died in the world wars. Our best and brightest. Consider the hordes of low IQ third world people flowing into the West.

How long before our civilization crumbles into the dustbin of history?

They are trying to destroy us. so they can create their One World Order. Its not about me hating non Whites. I don't hate them. That doesn't mean therefore I have to give my country to them.

Attacking Christianity, continually forcing it to defend itself from the fields of academia to the courts to pedophile priests is part of the destruction of Western civilization.

July 25, 2012 at 12:52 p.m.
annisisbell said...

jdavid - why do jews have a right to a state of their own but I'm evil? Why were Germans evil because they wanted to keep Germany for Germans? jews had gotten them defeated in WW1 so they could get Palestine from the Brits so why in the name of reason would Germans see jews as anything but a threat to Germany? Please explain.

Yes I'm race aware. The members of the Congressional Black Caucus are race aware. Are they evil? the members of AIPAC are race aware. Are they evil? The members of La Raza are race aware. Are they evil? The muslims are race aware. Are they evil.

Why is it you think that only White people have no right to seek our own interests? Please, please explain. why do we have no legitimate right to seek our own interests in our own country.

Every White nation on Earth is being made diverse AGAINST OUR CONSENT. Greece, Great Britain, France, Germany, Ireland, Russia and every other White country has a Nationalist party for the native people. We are trying to fight against the taking of the West by other races. Please explain to me why other races have a right to our countries but for some strange reason we have no right to fight to keep them? I can't wait to hear just how clever you are. enlighten me.

Breivik of Norway was in the news for killing the children of liberals who are turning Norway into an Islamic nation. How was he or the rest of the people of the West supposed to stop the hordes of immigrants being deliberately brought into Norway and our other White nations?

Its being done to us and unless we rise up to stop it we will become extinct. You think it bothers me that you label me evil and racist? When I think of what I am fighting for I cannot bear your stupidity. that is what I cannot bear, or the cavalier self righteous condescending mindlessness that you represent.

Another know nothing atop your tower looking down your nose and thinking "you're a racist but I'm not". People like you are a dime a dozen. You know what that says about your worth? To your country and to your race?

July 25, 2012 at 1:05 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Thanks in large part to the inherent arrogance of most Christians who think that their religion is the only true religion anyway, and thanks as well to the fact that for most of our nation's history we have been predominantly Judeo-Christian in belief, it has been commonplace for Christians to flaunt their beliefs and customs in public and anyone of a differing faith, or no faith, has simply had to remain silent and turn a blind eye to it. But we are a much more diverse nation now, comprised of many more differing cultures and faiths and we will continue to become even more so. It's time to put the old way of thinking aside and realize that what seemed acceptable and business-as-usual before is simply no longer the case. We have to have a new way of thinking that is respectful of the many different faiths and cultures and yet attempt to go forward in ways that unite us.

Most Christians feel compelled to proselytize - that is simply a basic tenet of their faith; and public prayer is a way for them to proselytize, by proclaiming for all to see that they are Christian. As much as I myself am turned off by the gaudy spectacle of public prayer in the first place, there's nothing wrong with it if it is done on their own time, at least, in their churches, homes, or meeting places. But they are simply going to have to accept the fact that their public prayers as GOVERNMENT workers on GOVERNMENT time in GOVERNMENT buildings is simply not acceptable, and the growing minorities are not going to just turn a blind eye to it any longer.

July 25, 2012 at 1:05 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Anus,

" If jews are a race than perhaps Jesus was a jew, but even that is being challenged. If jews are a religion then Jesus is a Christian, the Christ, a Christian."

Jesus was a Jew. Race and religion. Please get that through your thick neo-Nazi skull.

July 25, 2012 at 1:18 p.m.
MTJohn said...

annisisbell said..."How is wanting the United States to remain an Anglo Saxon Protestant nation somehow wrong?"

Because it violates the Constitution. The United States has never been an Anglo-Saxon Protestant nation. We are, as prescribed by the Constitution, a secular nation, irrespective of any religion that the majority of citizens may profess at any time in our history.

annisisbell said..."Other races have their homelands and I see nothing wrong with expecting a Mexican to live in Mexico. Is there something evil about that?"

If we wish to make the United States into a "homeland", it ought to be a homeland for the descendents of the indigenous peoples. Those of us of Anglo-Saxon Protestant heritage ought to pack up and return to the countries from which our ancestors emigrated.

July 25, 2012 at 1:25 p.m.
MTJohn said...

annisisbell said..."Attacking Christianity, continually forcing it to defend itself from the fields of academia to the courts to pedophile priests is part of the destruction of Western civilization."

annisisbell - if you believe, as do I, that the gates of hell cannot prevail against Christ and against Christ's church, why do you feel compelled to defend it? Christ invites us to love our neighbor (irrespective of our neighbor's skin color, creed or orientation). Christ does not need our help in battling the forces of evil.

July 25, 2012 at 1:29 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Fendrel, you make some good points on why atheism is not a religion. Of course it's absurd for anyone to say that it is, but the ones who do so are simply trying to justify their own weak-kneed belief in something that is preposterous to begin with. Deep down they know that their beliefs are illusory and have no validity whatsoever, so they try to rationalize them by making it appear that every sort of belief in anything whatsoever is a religion anyway. That way they can more easily accept believing in a fairy tale God as opposed to the scary notion - scary to them, anyway - of not believing in one.

July 25, 2012 at 1:30 p.m.
anniebelle said...

Yes, I understand what you're saying MTJohn, but it still boggles my mind that people can be that insecure in their faith. My whole family attends church regularly, and adheres to the tenets of their faith, as well as any human can, but I've never been pressured by any of them to join them in their beliefs or cast doubt on someone's character because they don't believe. I find it very unChristian.

July 25, 2012 at 1:43 p.m.
jdavid said...

Rickaroo, I was thinking about being an athiest but they meet on Monday and that's when I play bridge. Also the Choir wasn't very good and the hymns are real downers. Is there an Agnostic Group in town?

July 25, 2012 at 1:46 p.m.
annisisbell said...

Ok, I give up. I will try to learn from you and figure out how I'm wrong.

Please answer my questions as simply and slowly as possible.

Question: Why is it acceptable to attack Christians, ridicule their beliefs and take away their rights but its evil to attack jews?

thank you.

July 25, 2012 at 1:56 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Anniebelle - I believe that the central tenet of Christianity, to the extent it can be expressed in a single word, is "Grace". I once heard a sermon that included the statement that, "Grace undermines the efforts of religion to reward the good ones." It sounds to me as though your family members understand the theology expressed in that sentence.

July 25, 2012 at 1:56 p.m.
annisisbell said...

Mr Bennett, how do you go on?

July 25, 2012 at 1:57 p.m.
MTJohn said...

annisisbell said..."Please answer my questions as simply and slowly as possible.

Question: Why is it acceptable to attack Christians, ridicule their beliefs and take away their rights but its evil to attack jews?"

Answer: It is evil to attack anyone and doubly evil to attack a person because of their race, skin color, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, physical/mental disability etc. etc. etc.

The only Christians who have been attacked in this country have been attacked because they were black or because they were tolerant of homosexuals or because they happened to include members who provided health care for women. And, in all of those examples, the perpetrators were other folks who professed to be Christian.

Christians are not under attack in this country simply because they profess to be Christians. The bad behavior of some people who profess to be Christians is being challenged. And, if you have paid attention, lots of folks in this country have challenged the bad behavior of Israelis in their on-going dispute with the Palestinians.

July 25, 2012 at 2:07 p.m.
mtngrl said...

"Question: Why is it acceptable to attack Christians, ridicule their beliefs and take away their rights but its evil to attack jews?"

No one said it is other than you. The fight against prayers in commission meetings applies to all prayers, not just Christian ones so therefore includes Jewish prayers.

And you need to learn a little. If you consider yourself anglo saxon then by definition you are not native here. Germany/England is your homeland. Jesus was not anglo saxon either, but a middle eastern Jew.

July 25, 2012 at 2:07 p.m.
mtngrl said...

annisisbell said on July 25, 2012 at 1:05 p.m. "...Breivik of Norway was in the news for killing the children of liberals who are turning Norway into an Islamic nation. How was he or the rest of the people of the West supposed to stop the hordes of immigrants being deliberately brought into Norway and our other White nations?

Its being done to us and unless we rise up to stop it we will become extinct. You think it bothers me that you label me evil and racist? When I think of what I am fighting for I cannot bear your stupidity..."

Are you actually condoning Breivik's actions there??? It really sounds like you approve of those methods.

I have never liked the idea of "watch lists" for the internet but if anyone needs to be on a watch list it is you.

July 25, 2012 at 2:16 p.m.
annisisbell said...

Name one Indian whose name is on the Constitution.

Go back and read the comments and see how Christians are being ridiculed. See the cartoon above where Christians are having to go to court in order to be able to pray.

You know something, you people are stupid.

My condolences to Clay Bennett and everyone else employed by this online paper.

MTJohn you say its evil to attack other people then you proceed to attack other people.

Have any of you ever taken an IQ test? Take one somewhere online and see what your IQs are. Combine them and the number may be in the triple digits.

You are stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. I am so outta here. You are truly morons and I say that with no malice intended. You are the biggest bunch of imbeciles I have ever, and I mean EVER encountered online or any place else for that matter. You are brain dead morons. You are beyond stupid to the point that English has no word to describe the total inability of your brains to function anywhere near what is considered normal.

You are pathetic retards. No. You give retards a good name. You are brainless feeble minded dimwits.

Goodbye, enjoy your lives and I'm sure you will because you are too unaware to ever suffer the problems that the rest of us must think about and deal with.

You have mush where God usually put brains. My granddaddy had hounds with more breeding and intelligence than you have.

So long and good bye.

July 25, 2012 at 2:20 p.m.
alprova said...

mymy wrote: "Another day wasted on distractions when there are more important subjects which the "Clay" doesn't want you to discuss:"

Oh my...my

"bad Obama economy,"

The economy is not bad. It's in a rut. A bad economy would be what we had three years ago, with massive layoffs being announced each week, multiple business closings, massive lines at the unemployment offices, etc.

Jobs have been added for each of the last 30 months straight. Businesses are not closing like they were, and those that are open, are doing far better than they were three years ago. Heck...over the past three months, I've had to wait to be seated in practically every restaurant I've been too, until a table was available. It was nice for a long time. Unemployment claims have been down for much of the past year.

Yes, things could be better, but they have slowly and steadily improved in all but a few areas of the nation.

"loss of more and more jobs as a result"

Where and when? That's certainly not the case for the past 30 months. Jobs have been north of the zero line every month.

"strange Obama foreign policy"

Details?

"voter fraud"

It doesn't exist in numbers higher than lightening strikes.

"For those who are against voter ID's and deny voter fraud, for those who don't believe that Holder is helping Obama by doing everything he can to make it possible to buy votes, here's one example re a local voter fraud in KY. So, you don't have to be a genius to imagine how this is done on a larger scale."

Did you even READ that article? It doesn't begin to illustrate an example of voter fraud. It outlines a couple of examples of candidate fraud. Not one incident in that article can be laid at the feet of Eric Holder or the President, by any stretch of the imagination.

Further, how would showing a photographic I.D. have prevented one "purchased" vote from being cast in favor of any candidate involved?

mymy, you truly need to expand your research to include something...anything...other than Fox News. There are rain clouds hanging over your head, and it is washing your brain.

July 25, 2012 at 2:25 p.m.
MTJohn said...

annisisbell said..."Go back and read the comments and see how Christians are being ridiculed. See the cartoon above where Christians are having to go to court in order to be able to pray."

In this country, Christians are free to pray anywhere and at anytime. They do not need the court's permission and the court cannot prevent them from praying. But then the litigation isn't about permission to pray. Rather, it is about the right of public officials doing public business in public places to force others to participate in the conversation.

annisisbell said..."MTJohn you say its evil to attack other people then you proceed to attack other people."

You can find several examples in which I have challenged what someone else had to say. I don't think you can find in this thread or in conversations about any of the other cartoons in which I have attacked another person. I certainly have not attacked you in this conversation.

July 25, 2012 at 2:44 p.m.
anniebelle said...

annisisbell, don't let the door hit you on the back side on your way out. You are one delustional lunatic.

July 25, 2012 at 2:47 p.m.
mymy said...

Alpo: dream on!

July 25, 2012 at 2:50 p.m.
alprova said...

annisbelle wrote: "When I think of what I am fighting for I cannot bear your stupidity."

You're not fighting anything. You're pecking on a keyboard.

July 25, 2012 at 2:51 p.m.
alprova said...

mmy wrote: "Alpo: dream on!"

It would be nice for you to enter into conversation just once. Instead, you just come into the room, fart a link to a Fox News article that doesn't begin to describe a thing you claimed it did, and when challenged, this is all you have to say?

Okey dokey.

July 25, 2012 at 3:03 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

"Rickaroo, I was thinking about being an athiest but they meet on Monday and that's when I play bridge. Also the Choir wasn't very good and the hymns are real downers. Is there an Agnostic Group in town?" - jdavid

Yes, jdavid, there is an agnostic group you might like. We call ourselves the Unholy Rolling Church of the Agnostical Whatevers, and we meet at Joe's Bar and Grill any night of the week that ends in Y (that way it won't interfere with your bridge nights) and we take communion every night - beer and pretzels for everybody! Our preacher is anybody who's imbibed enough of the nectar of the gods and feels inspired to get up and speak; and more often than not, we have a lot of good ol'fashioned hellfire and brimstone preaching...about what a great place hell is gonna be for all of us infidels going there, when those persnickety christians will be far away in their heaven and we won't have to contend with their pretentious and self-righteous BS any more. And after enough rounds of our holy water the congregation usually starts speaking in tongues - communicating directly to the old man upstairs (that's Joe, the owner. He lives upstairs and we always yell at him when it gets close to closing time 'cause we want him to stay open a little while longer). It really is a righteous experience and I think you would find it to your satisfaction. Hell, bring your whole bridge club along! We don't care what you believe - just express a lot of doubt about it and you'll fit right in. We'll be lookin' for ya.

July 25, 2012 at 3:25 p.m.
dao1980 said...

Goodbye annasisybelle! You never really added anything interesting or enriching, so... I certainly won't miss you.

Hope you find some o them "smart folks" you're looking for.

Maybe you should go back to yowl with yer grandiddy's hounds?

July 25, 2012 at 3:31 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Annis: Sofa King sad to see you go.

July 25, 2012 at 3:51 p.m.
alprova said...
July 25, 2012 at 3:51 p.m.
wallyworld said...

Rickarooeieio - Best one yet! But whar is that thar joez barr?

July 25, 2012 at 4:04 p.m.
Walden said...

"fart a link" That one made me laugh out loud Alpo!

July 25, 2012 at 4:09 p.m.
Leaf said...

How I will miss aninisbelle! Since according to her/him/it, all of our IQ's together wouldn't add up to 100, I will miss him/her/it's words of wisdom. How will I know which non-Aryan group to hate today?

I guess I'll pick one at random. Hmm. I know - Alabamans! Filthy elephant-loving jerks. We should carve that state out of the union and send it down the Mississippi. You know what those mother-loving primates do all the time? Freakin' pray in public meetings. IN ARABIC! They are all Sharia fans and I hear they eat babies. No, FETUSES! That's right, even worse than babies! AND they wear their pants on the ground. AND they have the gall to think that renewable energy is a pretty neat idea. COMMUNISTS/FASCISTS! Man, do I hate Alabama.

July 25, 2012 at 4:32 p.m.
alprova said...

tu_quoque the troll, you can count on the above ruling from the Fourt Circuit Court of Appeals to be cited very quickly in the Hamilton County Commission case, thus establishing precedent for ruling against the Commission.

A refusal by the U.S. Supreme Court to hear an appeal, is just as precedent setting as any ruling that comes down from the Justices.

You know it and I know it.

We'll see in a couple of days who the loser is.

July 25, 2012 at 4:32 p.m.
fairmon said...

Religion is excellent use of the carrot and stick approach.

July 25, 2012 at 5:34 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

harp3339. excellent. so profound.

July 25, 2012 at 5:53 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

The liberal's "religion" is big government. And they try to pass laws all the time trying to shove it down our throats. Liberals try to force their beliefs on us every chance they get! If you don't believe in god and don't like someone praying anywhere near you, you're free to NOT believe in god, and free to not listen to prayer.

On the other hand, liberals believe their big government "religion" is the almighty truth. And they pass laws to FORCE the rest of us to live by THEIR beliefs!

Liberals are so offended by religion, but when was the last time a church forced the American people to pay higher taxes?

July 25, 2012 at 5:56 p.m.
conservative said...

The First Amendment of the Constitution reads : Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise therof...

IQ question, pass or fail : Who does the First Amendment of the Constitution prohibited from establishing a religion.

July 25, 2012 at 6:16 p.m.

annisisbell, I've been referring to it from the beginning of the discussion. So nothing sudden about it from me. I consider the people who focus entirely on the federal Constitution on this matter to be missing that important detail. Was this unclear to you?

Insofar as other laws are concerned, the situations are distinct. Should a state pass some religious oriented law that infringes upon federal rights, that too would be an issue. In fact, it was for one state. Either Oklahoma or Kansas, I believe, because of how it was written to disclaim one particular religion. That's forbidden to states since the fourteenth amendment. They are, however, allowed to state that none shall be given preference in any way. As has been done in this state.

That means the county commission by giving preference and selecting some violated the state's precepts which are far more extensive. They might be able to get by with a moment of silence, but their belated correction to policy shows an admission that they were mistaken in the first place.

TOES02800, whereas your articles of faith seems to be hating your conceptualization of liberals. You sure have a funny religion. Have you always been at war with EastAsia?

The problem is not Christians praying, but persons in public authority acting in their official capacity doing so. And yes, the Catholic Church has been attempting to influence the US government as have several other Churches. For example the Mormon Church's actions in California regarding Prop 8, which has lead to litigation and lawsuits.

July 25, 2012 at 7:36 p.m.
Easy123 said...

sTUpid,

Your declaration of B.S. was weak AND baseless. The case Alprova presented still stands despite your lame effort to disprove it. But here you go:

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)

Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state: 1) the government action must have a secular purpose; 2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion; 3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.

July 25, 2012 at 8:49 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Nice Wiki, Easy. You're a real scholar.

July 25, 2012 at 9:22 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Hey Easy. Post your address and I'll send you a sack full of Chick-Fil-A's.

July 25, 2012 at 9:25 p.m.
Easy123 said...

JackTroll,

It wasn't a Wiki. Keep trying, Methuselah.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1970/1970_89

Thanks for the offer but I can purchase my own chicken sandwiches. Someone might view your gesture as Socialism or something of the sort. You must keep up your image.

July 25, 2012 at 9:27 p.m.
alprova said...

Easy123 wrote: "Thanks for the offer but I can purchase my own chicken sandwiches. Someone might view your gesture as Socialism or something of the sort. You must keep up your image."

That Sir, was a brilliant retort.

July 25, 2012 at 9:35 p.m.
alprova said...

Some of you may remember the number of times that I have stated that the repeal of the Glass-Stegall Act of 1933 is what led to much of the financial collapse in this country.

My apologies for the diversion from today's subject, as fascinating as it has been, but everyone who gives a crap needs to read the following article. It pretty much substantiates what I have been harping on for several years.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-25/former-citigroup-chairman-weill-says-banks-should-be-broken-up.html

"Weill helped engineer the 1998 merger of Travelers Group Inc. and Citicorp, a deal that required repeal of the Depression-era Glass-Steagall law that forced deposit-taking companies backed by government insurance to be separate from investment banks."

July 25, 2012 at 9:40 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Easy. My apologies. Just trying to be congenial.

July 25, 2012 at 10:17 p.m.
tenben62 said...

Easy and Alprova are typical liberals they seem to confuse arrogance for intelligence.

Easy said atheism is not a BELIEF system. Just a BELIEF in no god.

July 26, 2012 at 3:50 a.m.
Fendrel said...

Tenben62,

Not to split hairs, but I disagree with your definition .. more accurately atheism is not holding a belief that there is a god ...this is not the same as believing that there is no god.

July 26, 2012 at 8:31 a.m.

Yes, the specific believing that there is no god is only one of the many options that fit under the more blanket form of atheism.

Some people use other words to clarify, such as strong atheism, or adevism, in contrast to the simple lack of belief.

July 27, 2012 at 8:04 p.m.
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