published Sunday, May 27th, 2012

Cheap Shots

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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Funny how I was just remarking on how Mitt Romney can't take any criticism of his conduct. He expects us to take for granted what he learned while running Bain Capital, but not to look at the results if we're going to come up with anything that isn't to his benefit.

The party of responsibility says what?

May 27, 2012 at 12:04 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Bennett sucks

May 27, 2012 at 12:39 a.m.
hotdiggity said...

One has to wonder if our self-described "Patriot" sits in front of the TV watching MSNBC while hurling invectives at Bill Maher, Rachel Maddow, Jon Stewart, etc. Bennett is too classy to reply to his juvenile criticism and no one on MSNBC can hear him. BRP gives new meaning to the term "Cheap Shot".

May 27, 2012 at 1:10 a.m.
anniebelle said...

And we musn't talk about his time as Guv seeing as how Massachussetts was 47th in the nation in job creation whilst he 'governed'. And he passed that old RomneyCare which was his finest achievement but not for the flat eathers, no sir, they believe in survival of the fittest. But, one thing's for sure, he knows how to make the top 1% wealthier, he just doesn't know the first thing about us peons finding gainful employment.

May 27, 2012 at 6:11 a.m.
dfclapp said...

Fortunately for the Democrats, Obama has no ethics when it comes to electioneering. Unfortunately for Democrats, his attacks in 2008 (criticizing Hilary for endorsing an individual mandate for healthcare, calling Bush unpatrioitc for increasing the national debt by $4 Trillion over 7 years) are still on tape while he runs on generating $5 trillion in additional debt in 3 years and his individual mandate is in front of the Supreme Court. Swift-boating Romney by lemon-picking the small percentage of firms that eventually failed (as opposed to the vast majority that succeeded) is simply par for his course. Obama hismself is at 50% (GM and Solyndra) with taxpayers left holding the bag in both.

May 27, 2012 at 6:35 a.m.
joneses said...

Another stupid biased liberal irresponsible cartoon from bennett the puppet.

May 27, 2012 at 6:51 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

Now my dear Mr Jones...It is not anymore irresponsible than some of the editorial cartoons and the editorials themselves that the right side of the paper has put out.

May 27, 2012 at 7:19 a.m.
davisss13 said...

dfclapp said... Fortunately for the Democrats, Obama has no ethics when it comes to electioneering.

Who would gladly steal the vote of an elderly person or minority with false charges of vote fraud and a systematic plan to disenfranchise the most vulnerable legal voters?

A REPUBLICAN, that's who. You have a lot of nerve talking that smack about Dems when you degenerates are the biggest cheats we've seen in a century.

May 27, 2012 at 7:46 a.m.
hambone said...

Funny how Romney hasn't shown any reason for the "no hitting below the belt" rule to apply to him!

May 27, 2012 at 7:53 a.m.
jesse said...

the way it's goin now before it's over they will be usin shotguns at 20 feet!! gonna git nasty on both sides!!

May 27, 2012 at 8:19 a.m.
davisss13 said...

The GOP declared all-out war many years ago FROM THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE. Tom 'the hammer' himself. It went something like this, "I think it's time for all-out war".

He wasn't talking about bin Laden.

May 27, 2012 at 8:44 a.m.
moon4kat said...

Another good one, Clay. The long list the things we aren't allowed to discuss about Romney's record make him sound like a precious, pampered little boy who is out of touch with the real world. Oh, that's right, he is.

May 27, 2012 at 8:54 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Having a leftist cartoonist is one thing. Having a really bad leftist cartoonist is another.

May 27, 2012 at 8:59 a.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "Bennett sucks"

You're totally incapable of controlling yourself when it comes to your obsession with lobbing commentary at Mr. Bennett, aren't you?

I happen to think that you are a total loon, but you don't see me posting that about you every single time that you post something.

Your one man war that you are waging against Mr. Bennett will never result in a satisfactory strike, so why don't you take up another, more realistic hobby, like needlepoint?

Just when I think that you could not get any more pathetic, you post again.

May 27, 2012 at 9:12 a.m.
jesse said...

alprova and brp have a lot in common ,just from diff.side of the spectrum! neither can see themselves in the other BUT the similarities are there!

May 27, 2012 at 9:36 a.m.
mymy said...

Happy: Your mention of Bain Capitol shows you are buying into the one Obama ad. During that time period a lot of steel cos. went down. Why? Large imports of cheap steel. The ad was misleading-Dim Bulb.

May 27, 2012 at 9:56 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Outstanding cartoon, but I doubt that Mitten$ would put his hair at risk. Maybe the belt should be floating above his head like a Mormon halo.

May 27, 2012 at 10:04 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

sounds like religious bigotry to me, Dude. And you a lefty...My my.

May 27, 2012 at 10:14 a.m.
jesse said...

hey dude! mittens is more worried about other folks hair,his own? ,not so much!! like how many folks pull of some vigilante hair cuttin and then 30 years down the road run for pres?

May 27, 2012 at 10:15 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Choom Gang, Choom Gang!!

May 27, 2012 at 10:22 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Choom Obama. Blessed be his name.

May 27, 2012 at 10:32 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Jack_Dennis... You're right, I shouldn't knock him because of his coiffure. Blessed be his name.

May 27, 2012 at 10:40 a.m.
jesse said...

hey jack? as bad as obama is he is not a sociopath! mittins is!

barry is inept,mittins is dangerous!

actualy the worst choice for my lifetime BUT what ya gonna do!!

btw: your cajones must clank when you walk to use rush for an avatar!!LOL! got more nerve than me!!

May 27, 2012 at 10:43 a.m.
dude_abides said...

JonRoss... Still not clear on all this jail talk I keep hearing. Are you in trouble with the law? Is that bigotry? If so, I apologize. Mitt hu akbar.

May 27, 2012 at 10:44 a.m.
alprova said...

dfclapp wrote: "Fortunately for the Democrats, Obama has no ethics when it comes to electioneering. (snipped)"

Back-stabbing and hypocrisy during political campaigning is typical politics these days.

Given the kind of attacks that Romney had to endure to emerge the front-runner in his own party, I truly find any political fallout by the Obama camp to be rather tame, so far anyway.

Romney has been responsible for several zingers of his own.

Comparing his record on spending to that of the President, he made that claim that "We were able to cut back on the size of government. Actually, we didn't just slow the rate of growth of our government, we actually cut it. We pulled back on the spending of our state."

Politifact rated that statement to be totally false.

Mitt Romney is rather vulnerable when it comes to criticizing Obamacare as well.

He has personally attacked the President for being "the only president to ever cut $500 billion from Medicare." It's a totally false statement.

A reduction in spending called for in the plan does not translate into a "cut."

"Swift-boating Romney by lemon-picking the small percentage of firms that eventually failed (as opposed to the vast majority that succeeded) is simply par for his course."

Nit-picking and taking things totally out of context is politics too. No man on the planet has been more victimized by that strategy than Barack Obama.

Considering that Mitt Romney has repeatedly held up his experience at Bain Capital as proof that he is better-suited than the President to revive the struggling U.S. economy, he has set himself up for any and all criticism that has come forth.

"Obama hismself is at 50% (GM and Solyndra) with taxpayers left holding the bag in both."

I repeat emphatically, that no one can lay the Solyndra mess at the feet of the President and hold a straight face. He had nothing at all to do with what happened.

His involvement with salvaging GM only amounted to making a public statement that the Government's assistance would not favor any concerned party over another and that everyone involved would have to sacrifice.

Anyone else not directly affected by the potential collapse of the company disagreeing with what was done is irrelevant and totally pointless.

Given the situation at the time, the sheer number of jobs that were on the line, and the fact that other bankruptcy option alternatives were not on the table which would have preserved those jobs, it was a decision that has paid off handsomely.

Had the Government not assisted GM, it would have closed forever and been sold off to satisfy creditors. The unemployment compensation that would have had to have been paid out by the Government would have eclipsed several times over, that which will be eventually lost on the deal.

May 27, 2012 at 10:45 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Such intelligent conversation from JonRoss and Jack_Dennis! You folks are sad.

May 27, 2012 at 10:49 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Jesse: I can take the abuse. Plus, it's fun.

May 27, 2012 at 10:57 a.m.
Easy123 said...

You live in an alternate reality.

May 27, 2012 at 10:57 a.m.
Easy123 said...


Your last post sums up my argument! You're irrational and the things you say are incoherent. You add nothing to intelligent conversation and people probably get dumber from reading your posts. You're also an outright liar.

May 27, 2012 at 11:02 a.m.
jesse said...

jonross! there is some validity to clinton being a sociopath, BUT he ain't in this race!periot!

but Mittins IS and as bad as i hate to admit it obama is the better man! and to set the record straight I am a Goldwater type conservetive!!

actualy i think we are in BIG trouble no matter which one wins!!

May 27, 2012 at 11:02 a.m.
Easy123 said...

LOL! I'll leave you to your stupidity.

May 27, 2012 at 11:06 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

JonRoss seems totally coherent and rational. President Obama (blessed is his name) = Cheeb-in-Chief.

May 27, 2012 at 11:10 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

You go, bro.

May 27, 2012 at 11:17 a.m.
jesse said...

HEY JONROSS!!! you can't say that NO MO!!


mitts is gonna tell you what he thinks you want to hear!periot! the man has NO core values! at least obama will stand up and show how inept he is! romney patronizes EVERYBODY!! gittin a grip on what romney really thinks is like tryin to pour sand down a rat hole! or maybe stackin b-b's!you stay busy BUT you don't get much done!!

May 27, 2012 at 11:20 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Hey Jesse, you get your thoughts straight from the DNC, via the Chicago thugs? Huh?

May 27, 2012 at 11:27 a.m.
jesse said...

hey jonross! google "b.carrol reece" that was my great uncle!(grand dads bro!) i was raised that way! just so you know i did not get here easily!!

May 27, 2012 at 11:30 a.m.
NGAdad said...

dude, jonross regularly does not show up for court dates. He disappoints his tax payer funded public defenders to the point of them resigning. That kicks the can down the road for a trial date. He has had numerous bench warrants for failure to appear and contempt of court. His bankruptcy has been plagued by fraudulent filings and his pocketing of money due to the escrow account. He has consistently harassed the federal trustee to the point of the Court stepping in with large fines and sanctions. All in all an outstanding example of hating our system of laws, and thinking that it will all go away. Head firmly in the sand - this guy has no credibility here.

May 27, 2012 at 11:40 a.m.
jesse said...

nah jack! i pretty much thunk my own thoughts! i find that i don't really fit in w/dogma and such! on some things i am on the right and on others on the left! like my avatar i just try to "cut it out w/all them negative waves:!! BUT when it comes down to politics it's ALL negative,so i just roll w/the flow!!

May 27, 2012 at 11:41 a.m.
jesse said...

hey jonross! i got a real firm grip on who i am!! maybe it's you that needs to get a little "introspective"!!LOL! and while your at it take noogs w/you!! i think i know nooga,aka as "tal"!!

May 27, 2012 at 11:52 a.m.
moonpie said...

Truth is never below the belt.

Sadly, too frequently, politics is not about the truth, but winning.

May 27, 2012 at 12:01 p.m.
Nyclaguy said...

I love that Clay Bennet can tell the truth about Mitt Romney & so many people get upset over it.

First off, Most of you people didn't vote for Mitt anyway. YOU voted for Rick Santorum, because you didn't like Mitt. Now, all of a sudden, Mitt can do no wrong? Really? Mitt Romney is just like Charles Durning was in "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" He does a little sidestep everytime it get's a little uncomfortable or he doesn't want to deal with a situation.

Mitt's a hypocrite & disgrace to humans everywhere. Clay, keep up the good work!

May 27, 2012 at 12:02 p.m.
potcat said...

This one is funny! Mitt doesn't need a belt for his pants because his secret under garments are probaly pinned to his pants so he is not tempted to pull them down, just guessing. I suppose we can be glad he's not got a pair of scissors in his bullied hands.

May 27, 2012 at 12:02 p.m.
NGAdad said...

p.s. jonross, my neighbors and the local police know who you are. Your goons also will stick out like sore thumbs in my hood. Your full face shield helmet doesn't hide your presence either. Already you can't escape the County sheriff's deputies, who would just love to...

I'd say as little as possible about the subject on here if i were you too. Have a nice incarceration.

May 27, 2012 at 12:04 p.m.
mymy said...

Bennett Archive: "Cow-Pie" = (BS)!

May 27, 2012 at 12:10 p.m.
jesse said...

ngdad! you been spoutin your bile on here for a while about j.r.! it's time to put up or SHUT UP! if you got sumpin put it on here ,IF NOT s.t.f.u. periot! it's obvious you have issues w/him and that o.k.! but if you are going to air them on here you need to get out in the open w/it! jonross ain't my fav.dude on here BUT if you gonna slam his a$$ you need to post some facts and stop all this B.S. you been slingin!!

May 27, 2012 at 12:15 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

"Alprova and brp have a lot in common ,just from diff.side of the spectrum! neither can see themselves in the other BUT the similarities are there!" - jesse

You crack me up, dude. You're so convinced that you are somehow above all the madness of taking sides and game-playing. I think you have this notion that you are some kind of enlightened being who floats calmly and all-knowingly above the insanity taking place in the arena below you. But you are are as attached to your point of view and as convinced of the rightness of your opinion as anyone who posts here. The very fact that you show up and post here makes null and void any claim to being totally objective and detached from the madness.

There are people with diametrically opposed views here and just because someone refutes something that someone of a differing view said, it doesn't automatically make them nothing more than the opposite side of the same coin or "a lot in common but from the different side of the spectrum." Certainly that is the case many times, but what you said about alprova and BRP is utter nonsense. The burp DOES pretty much limit himself to his snide, unoriginal one liners and rarely offers anything substantive to say. He clearly has some kind of perverse masochistic tendencies going on that keep him drawn like a magnet to the very thing/person he despises. That's just weird. I know nothing about alprova as a person other than what I have read of his posts but he does, at least, expound upon a variety of topics with reason and clarity. He doesn't just fling childish invectives on a daily basis. If you are seeing the burp and alprova as being similar but merely from different sides of the spectrum, then you might want to think about positioning yourself a little differently on that perch you sit on as you hover so coolly and calmly above us. Seems to me you've got a pretty distorted view the way you're sitting now. Just sayin'.

May 27, 2012 at 12:16 p.m.
mymy said...

Nyclaguy said... First off, Most of you people didn't vote for Mitt anyway.

I voted for him over Progressive McCain and I voted for him again this time.

If the supid Repubs had voted for him over McCain, this country would be in better economic condition today cause he would have beat Obama in 2008. Today because of O's policies more people are on the government payroll and more people want more give-a-ways. What fools!

This country has a historic decision to make:

May 27, 2012 at 12:24 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ALL you mopes take yourselves too seriously.

May 27, 2012 at 12:26 p.m.
NGAdad said...

jesse, he has admitted that he is out on bail (not the first time either). His criticism of others is sooooo ironic. I only surmised his real identity because of his proclivity for unfettered bile in the public setting. He knows that I know ... He has used the same words in Court against Law Enforcement, attorneys, witnesses and Judges. An entire County of officers are just dying to catch him in the act of escape (again) or violence (that he has threatened openly). Again, a swell guy.

May 27, 2012 at 12:31 p.m.
jesse said...

hey rickaroo" you slamin me or your ownself?? i KNOW i am subject to my own prejudices! i just try to point out that i AIN'T ALL BY MY LONESOME!! I GOT AN OPINION AND I'M GONNA AIR IT!! if you have a prob.w/that it's YOUR prob.not mine! some day down the road,when you grow mature,you will realise that every one disagrees about everything!just the way the world works!!

BTW: compared to 50 % of the posters on here "in my own mind i am ghandi""HOW DID THAT GRAB YA ,DUDE!!ROFLI! see i know i'm just a a$$hole gittin on here to have some fun and run my jaw! YOU,on the other hand think you are gonna have an impact on the world/w/your tidbits of wisdom! get over it! this is just a place to come and bitch!!

May 27, 2012 at 12:33 p.m.
alprova said...

JonRoss wrote: "Alprova, the God King's "rescue" of GM cost thousands of auto industry jobs. And it was carried out with taxpayer dollars."

Dealer closings were going to happen no matter how it played out. To say that the closings were carried out with taxpayer dollars, is just plain ignorant.

"GM would have been dismembered and the separate parts would have been worth far more than it is worth now. The number of jobs created by the spinoffs would have skyrocketed."

What spinoffs? Not one auto company in the world expressed so much as a minute's worth of interest in buying any or all of GM.

"The only job preservation intended were Union jobs and thats why thousands of non Union jobs were destroyed."

You do realize that the GM bailout began in 2008 while former President George W. Bush was in office, don't you? Do you think that he was aiding only union workers too?

You can type it a million times and you will never be able to back it up with an iota of proof. The UAW gave up immense ground to preserve their jobs.

"If you subtract 35 billion still owed by GM to the American people, the company has a net negative value."

So? The stock has steadily risen over the past year. Look it up. Were you expecting miracles to occur within the first year or two after it went public again?

I'm like the Gov't. I'm in it for the long haul. I have quite a few shares riding out there too, although I bought mine at a cheaper price than the Gov't did.

It likely will rise to a point, perhaps in a year or two in the future, where the Government's stock in GM can be sold at a profit.

"You still buying weed from Barry?"

The cocaine charges never stuck to Bush, and the American people have an attention span of a few days at best. People don't react to those kind of accusations the way they used to.

BTW, just for kicks, how much pot have you smoked during your lifetime? Chances are, you have toked a bit of it too. 100 million people or 40% of the population of this nation have smoked it at least once during their lifetime.

May 27, 2012 at 1:03 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Why y'all picking on JonRoss.? He may even be kin.

May 27, 2012 at 1:24 p.m.
jesse said...

actualy the fact that barry has toked up in the past makes me think their may be hope for him afterall!!

May 27, 2012 at 1:27 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Jesse, he may be burnin a spliff in the Oval Office as we speak.

May 27, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.
jesse said...

that would be better for the nation than if he was on the phone w/arafat and gittin a b.j. at the time!!

NOW THATS A CONVERSATION i would liked to have heard!!

like "hey's bill,how you ahh,oh god,doin man? let me ohh,call you back ,i'm in the middle of arghhh!. O.K. yassir ,what was you sayin??

May 27, 2012 at 2:01 p.m.
conservative said...

Will the loontoonist ignore Memorial Day tomorrow or will he depict the American soldier in an unfavorable light?

May 27, 2012 at 2:16 p.m.

mymy, Mitt Romney wants us to believe he's good for the country, so now you're making excuses that businesses all around were failing, so he's not responsible for any of us that failed?

But wait, who loaded the company up with debt? And Mitt Romney's investments paid off how much to him first, and not to the creditors? And how much in the way of government subsidies did his steel mill that's still around get?

Oh you don't want us looking into those facts, do you? You're just waving it off with a bland excuse that "businesses were failing" which as I recall, is something Republicans have proclaimed long and hard about how such scape-goating is wrong when they see it.

So apparently you're allowed to complain about it, but also use it, so we can't look at the details.

Mitt Romney made money driving a steel mill into bankruptcy. That doesn't count as a productive investment to me.

May 27, 2012 at 3:42 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

DNC talking points are rampant. Romney not qualified, but a community organizer is. Strange.

May 27, 2012 at 3:49 p.m.
Easy123 said...

He's not a community organizer anymore. He's the president now. So yes, Obama is more qualified than Willard Mitt Romney at being a president. Strange...that you don't understand that.

May 27, 2012 at 3:54 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "Will the loontoonist ignore Memorial Day tomorrow or will he depict the American soldier in an unfavorable light?"

If that's what you think, you haven't been paying attention. Mr. Bennett has never depicted an American Soldier in an unfavorable light. He's certainly been guilty of criticizing military brass, and rightfully so.

Why don't you go find your Bible and cherry pick a few verses to throw out there?

May 27, 2012 at 4:03 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Obama takes cheap shots at anyone in the oil, gas and coal industries. Anyone who is not in a union. Anyone who makes over $100,000 a year. Anyone against Obamacare. Anyone who ever succeeded in business. anyone who questions his copious golf outings or HIS and his WIFE'S extravagant lifestyle. Anyone who points out his many faults. anyone with a plan for the country that isn't total government control........and on and on and on...........

The preezy has skin like rice paper. (though we know he likes the rice paper with the glue on one side). He can dish it out but he can't take it.

It's almost 4:20....Do you know where your president is?

May 27, 2012 at 4:09 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Come on bulbs!!! Even liberal hardliners know that Bain gave that steel mill eight more years of life that it wouldn't have had!! It was going BANKRUPT! Bain gave it eight more years of life!!

And you must know that Romney wasn't even with Bain when that happened!!

I'm REALLY starting to rethink your holier-than-thou standing! The new bulbs are getting to you.

May 27, 2012 at 4:21 p.m.
Easy123 said...


You need to do some research amigo. Google the history of Bain. Google how much Romney is worth and his EXTRAVAGANT lifestyle.

All your claims are unfounded.

May 27, 2012 at 4:29 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

So Easy, you begrudge Romney making a ton of dough?

May 27, 2012 at 4:41 p.m.
ibshame said...

Just a few weeks ago the right wing nuts and Romney were all blaming President Obama for the high gasoline prices. The price of gasoline has been falling, Does President Obama now get the credit for that?

May 27, 2012 at 4:42 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Not at all. Toes was begrudging Obama and his wife for their, so called, "extravagant lifestyle". I was just making his ignorance to the facts known.

May 27, 2012 at 4:43 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Romney pays for his own lifestyle. We pay for Obama's lifestyle. Romney earned his money. Obama never had a real job unless you count one teaching gig years ago. Romney left Bain in 1999. Bain closed Armco in 2001. Bain under Romney also built up staples stores from two stores to 2000 stores. How many jobs created would that be? A little research may square you up on that.

May 27, 2012 at 4:46 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

When gas gets to $1.80 it was when Bush left, then we'll have an argument.

May 27, 2012 at 4:48 p.m.

TOES02800, let's see by your claim, the steel mill was held by Bain for eight years.

Romney left Bain in 1999. GST Steel filed for bankruptcy in 2001. I don't think you can argue his absolute non-involvement there.

Your story doesn't even pass the least amount of scrutiny.

May 27, 2012 at 4:53 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Toes: Community Organizin ain't hard work? Bwahahahaha

May 27, 2012 at 4:53 p.m.
Easy123 said...


Obama is a government employee genius. You also pay for the courthouse janitor's lifestyle.

Here is some Romney at Bain info for you:

A little research probably won't square you up on anything but I've at least made the attempt with some citations.

And Obama has done a lot more work than you jabroni's. A little Wiki knowledge for your mind:

May 27, 2012 at 4:53 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Facts are facts bulbs! Not what you WANT them to be!! As you so often say: Show me some proof that Romney had a hand in it! You can't! So I take your liberal biased assumptions and relegate them to the trash heap that is your liberal philosophy!

May 27, 2012 at 4:57 p.m.
Easy123 said...

I've provided citations Mr. Toes. I've got Bulbs back.

And you can't ask Bulbs for proof because you have provided NONE. EVERRRRR.

The trash heap is in your mind Mr. Toes.

May 27, 2012 at 5 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Think progress?? Really?? Could you find a more liberal source?? Laughable!! Bain created MANY more jobs than they terminated over the years! /wiki/Bain_Capital

May 27, 2012 at 5:02 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Can you spell third grade? WOW!

May 27, 2012 at 5:04 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

"In 1986, Bain provided $4.5 million to two supermarket executives, Leo Kahn and Thomas G. Stemberg, to open an office supply supermarket in Brighton, Massachusetts.[23] The fast-growing retail chain went public in 1989[24] and in 1996 the company had grown to over 1,100 stores". Just one example of your evil bain killing jobs!

May 27, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

"government employee genius"?.......Pardon me while I puke!

May 27, 2012 at 5:10 p.m.

You're the one who tried to exculpate Mitt Romney from the failing of GST Steel by claiming that Mitt Romney wasn't even with Bain when it happened. Yet the date of GST's bankruptcy filing was 2001, and the date when Romney "left" Bain to manage the Olympics was 1999.

Since you just said they ran it for eight years, and you can't fit eight years into two, that means for six years of its operations, Mitt Romney was involved. I'm sorry it so devastated your claims that you try to deflect it onto me, but I'm not going to bother with producing real evidence when you can't even own up to such an obviously false statement of your own.

But hey, it was Mitt Romney who wanted us to believe he deserved credit for the businesses he invested money into, regardless of any demonstration of actual involvement, pardon us for looking at all of them. Just like your claims about Staples. Tell you what, where is your evidence that Mitt Romney did anything there?

Even if your claim about 2000 stores doesn't add up. They have about that many now. Are you saying they've remained nearly static for over 10 years? Or were you just expecting us to not know any of the details, and just attribute all of it to Romney without thinking? Meanwhile, you go and demand evidence from the rest of us?

That's like saying because a farmer planted a field once, he deserves credit for the farmer who harvested it today. Meanwhile you argue that we have to extensively prove that that original farmer let his cattle knock down his neighbor's fence.

May 27, 2012 at 5:12 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Sorry for the mistake. I meant "government employee, genius". I was attempting you use sarcasm. But I omitted that all important comma. Dangit!

May 27, 2012 at 5:12 p.m.

Yep, it seems Mitt Romney gets AUTOMATIC credit for what good happened under his watch, but none of what went bad, even if he profited from it, can be accounted to him.

How's that work?

Oh wait, that's the whole point, it doesn't.

May 27, 2012 at 5:16 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Romney wasn't there when Bain closed the plant!

Read the "founding and early history" paragraph.

May 27, 2012 at 5:16 p.m.
Easy123 said...


Now address all the other companies that went bankrupt on his watch!

May 27, 2012 at 5:18 p.m.
mymy said...

"The liberals are up to their usual tricks.
Romney is running for president on the idea that his experience in business gives him a better insight into how to improve business. • The liberals hear only "Bain Capital." • Then they reduce the entirety of Bain Capital to one instance where an investment failed (never mind that Romney had already left Bain by then, or that the decision to close the steel company was made by an Obama supporter, or that Bain had tried to resuscitate the company for years, only to be blocked by pro-Democrat union contracts). • Finally, they try to say that Romney is running with the intention of using private equity tactics on the economy. They've used this tactic so often that it's self-parody now. They hear only what they want to hear, and base their public campaign on nothing more than the distortion that they themselves misrepresented. After a week goes by, they've repeated it so often that they forgot what the original fraud was, and then it becomes instant history. Ask them what really happened a year from now, and they'll have convinced themselves that Herodotus testified to it. It isn't that The Big Lie convinces everyone. It just rebounds back on the the big-lie tellers. After they use the Big Lie, they come to believe it ... not anyone else."

May 27, 2012 at 5:24 p.m.
Easy123 said...

There is more than one instance. And they were while Romney was there. But ok.

May 27, 2012 at 5:27 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Why would anyone ever want to succeed in this country anymore? As soon as someone gains success in America anymore, they are derided violently by the left! "How dare you become rich and succeed when others are not".

Obama and Biden are out there giving speeches about how "America is STILL the land of opportunity and possibility". And in the same speech say "at some point you've made enough money". "The evil rich need to PAY"! They make no sense whatsoever. Class warfare mongers to the core.

May 27, 2012 at 5:28 p.m.
Easy123 said...


No one said that. You invented that in your mind! You were the one talking about Obama and his "extravagant" lifestyle? No one said anything bad about being rich.

You make no sense. Ever.

The rich do need to pay their fair share. How is that demonizing the rich? Middle class people pay the bulk in taxes. Shouldn't the rich pay their fair share as well?

It's funny how you go from one issue to the next and never address any of the opposing arguments.

May 27, 2012 at 5:33 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Toes: We just need a larger gubment teat. All would be well.

May 27, 2012 at 5:36 p.m.
rick1 said...

Easy123 said "The rich do need to pay their fair share." Please tell us what is rich and what should their fair share be.

May 27, 2012 at 5:40 p.m.
mymy said...

Toes: They don't have the band width to understand the big picture. They just believe what they are spoon fed and never question. Big business is bad. Well, private business's job is to make a profit for investors, Geez. Now what did O's investment get us. Wasted taxpayer $'s and kickbacks to his friends and deeper in debt. Bain has an 80-90% success record and what is O's record with our dollars?

Former Democratic Michigan governor turned Current (LOL) TV commentator Jennifer Granholm got a much-needed education Sunday about the difference between Mitt Romney's involvement with Bain Capital and President Obama's forays into green energy investment. "When Bain invested," said George Will on ABC's This Week, "it invests money that it gets voluntarily to be invested. When the president throws a half-billion dollars away on Solyndra, it's money taken away by the police power of the federal government.

Why is it liberals have far less disdain for a President wasting taxpayer funds on failed projects than private citizens investing their own money for personal gain?

May 27, 2012 at 5:48 p.m.

TOES02800, you were trying to get us to take that Romney had no involvement in Bain's handling GTS Steel as a given, but for six years Romney was running Bain which owned that steel mill.

If you're going to make us take it as a given that Romney must be credited with the benefits from Staples and other companies, why must we ignore the other half?

And your insistence on evidence from others while not providing any yourself is not going to be persuasive. You give Romney AUTOMATIC credit for everything that went good, while making excuses for anything that didn't. How's that standard work?

And you're quite clearly saying Obama believes one thing, while quoting him saying something entirely different, which you're claiming IS what you believe.

That's fabricating a meaning to it.

rick1: It's unfortunate, but we've yet to come up with a fair system to adequately calculate the benefits people truly receive from government spending.

Really, do you think the rich people don't benefit from having skilled and educated workers that were taught at public schools? Or a healthy workforce that is protected by public sanitation efforts?

May 27, 2012 at 5:52 p.m.
Easy123 said...


I was referring to your first paragraph.

And Obama is right. I think there is a point when you can say that you've made enough money. Could you ever spend 200+ million?


Upper class. And their fair share is the proper tax bracket. No loopholes.

May 27, 2012 at 5:54 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

mymy: Because Obama's spending was not wasted as far as he's concerned. He gets most of it back in the form of campaign "contributions" and union votes! Private investments don't always favor the democrats, therefore, private investors must be demonized.

May 27, 2012 at 5:55 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Be careful there Easy, Warren Buffet might hear you.

May 27, 2012 at 5:58 p.m.
Easy123 said...


Just for kicks. By the way, it's not "taken away". You have to pay taxes. Some might say they do it voluntarily. That's not going to change.

May 27, 2012 at 5:59 p.m.
rick1 said...

TOES and mymy, notice how the left is not saying a word about Federico Pena who is one of Obama's campaign spokesmen, and is also a private equity manager of Vestar Capital. Pena has been with Vestar Capital since 2000 and during this time they have purchased Solo Cup Company, Del Monte, and Birds Eye Foods to name a few. With each of these companies Vestar has closed plants, laid off employees and relocated plants other counries.

May 27, 2012 at 6:01 p.m.

LOL, complaining about private investments being demonized while trying to demonize unions.

May 27, 2012 at 6:01 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

But he's allowed rick1, he's a lib! As long as you're a rich person that gives to democrats, then you're fine.

May 27, 2012 at 6:04 p.m.
Easy123 said...


Pena is Obama's National Campaign Co-Chair. Who cares what he does? Romney is ACTUALLY RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT!

And it sounds like you are demonizing what Pena does. Why don't you demonize Romney for doing the exactly same thing?

May 27, 2012 at 6:05 p.m.
rick1 said...

Bulbs said "Really, do you think the rich people don't benefit from having skilled and educated workers that were taught at public schools? Or a healthy workforce that is protected by public sanitation efforts?"

At least those you call rich in your post are paying federal income tax unlike 40 plus percent of Americans who are not. It is time those who are not paying federal income taxes to start paying their fair share and quit being parasites.

May 27, 2012 at 6:05 p.m.
mymy said...

Happy: Your band width has a problem.

May 27, 2012 at 6:07 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Most of that 40% don't make enough money to pay federal income tax. Most are the lowest 40% of earners. Do you really not understand that?

Yeah, let's tax the piss out of people who don't make much money to begin with so Mitt can fill his pool up with the $100 bills he saves while being in a 15% tax bracket.


May 27, 2012 at 6:11 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

That's right bulbs! Union contracts are part of what forced Bain to close up shop! I grew up in the steel valley, it was outrageous union contracts that priced them out of the market forcing most to close their doors.

I've worked in steel mills before much larger than little armco in Kansas. (Wheeling pittsburgh steel, Weirton national steel, J&L steel) I've seen these union guys sleeping on the floors as we stepped over them with our equipment. Some of these people were making $80.00 an hour! Sorry, but no business survives with that kind of help. Go unions, huh?

Any private investor would be wise to pull out that mess. Unions won't budge. Would you pay a gardener to just sit in his truck?

May 27, 2012 at 6:19 p.m.

rick1, Pena isn't on the ticket. Mitt Romney is. Pena's business may be fine for him. It would be fine if Mitt Romney were to stick to being a private businessmen.

Running for president, and claiming that you should be elected on that background, but demanding that it not be criticized...that is the problem.

As for not paying federal income taxes, I know you like to think they're some huge hoard of lazy people sitting on their butts, but actually, a real analysis reveals how many of them are senior citizens, students in college, or the disabled.

But you never think about that. You just assume they're all shiftless welfare leeches as part of your dogma.

And you never look at huge corporations who have a zero, or even negative income tax. Or you make excuses that they're paying people, and that's leading to taxes. Of course, those welfare people you deride are also engaging in commerce too, but you can't credit them for that.


Ok, let's play World of Class Warfare. Again.

mymy: Nope, my filters block the load of BS Spam you try to send.

Easy123: Don't forget how many of them are students, the disabled, or senior citizens. Others are people who just lost their jobs, or even who lost their spouses, and a lot of income. The Right wants you to get outraged at people, to get everybody thinking they're leeches and stealing, but a real look at them shows a different story.

May 27, 2012 at 6:19 p.m.
rick1 said...

EASY, I'm not demonizing Pena, and I do not have a problem with either company.

If Obama had serious convictions about Bain and all the workers he is using who lost their jobs when Bain had to close plants and lay off employees then he would not have Pena involved in his campaign. But Obama really doesn't give a crap about those workers they are just pawns. It is all about Obama.

May 27, 2012 at 6:22 p.m.

TOES02800, keep telling yourself that it was the unions at fault, when the reality it was the corporate CEO's who took the money they could have spent improving the factories and put it into their own pockets.

I know you want me to believe your unsupported anecdotal stories, but I'll pass on that when there's actual facts, like how Bain loaded up the mill with debt, paid itself, then left the actual creditors hanging.

Or do you want me to tell you about anecdotes? Ok, there's the CEO who made a piece of equipment run 24-7 without proper maintenance, then complained when it broke down. And tried to blame the overworked employees who were running it because they were so exhausted they couldn't do things properly. Never seen that happen? You can find it here, at some of our local factories.

Dare you to visit them?

Rick1: Only if Obama were planning on doing everything Pena wanted.

Which if he is, is a problem even if Pena is a complete saint.

Keep money out of politics!

May 27, 2012 at 6:31 p.m.
rick1 said...

EASY "Most of that 40% don't make enough money to pay federal income tax. Most are the lowest 40% of earners. Do you really not understand that?"

And the article you provided will never tell you how much they are making off of government assistance like SCHIP, food stamps, and other entilement programs that are not figured into the wages they earn.

Bulbs said "You just assume they're all blanklless welfare leeches as part of your dogma."

I never said or assumed that they are all blankless welfare leeches. I did call them parasites because there are a great majority who game the system for all it is worth and refuse to better themselves because they know the government will give them more. It was you who called them blankless welfare leeches so now we know how you really feel about people on welfare. The truth comes out on happtobeahypocrite.

May 27, 2012 at 6:34 p.m.
hambone said...

Just think next week, when someone ask,

" What did you do Memorial Day?"

So many of you will be able to say,


May 27, 2012 at 6:39 p.m.
Easy123 said...


What's your point? Are they secretly hiding a bunch of cash somewhere? Man what a luxury FOOD STAMPS are!? If only everyone could have that creamy government cheese and beans for dinner.

Once again, unbelievable.

May 27, 2012 at 6:39 p.m.

rick1, please do not claim to quote me and then edit my words.

That's a misrepresentation and very offensive.

But you are making an assumption about them, and no, my description of how you feel is not revealing anything about me.

Keep trying to project your faults onto others, it's nearly as phony as your attempt to say "I never said or assumed that they are all blankless welfare leeches" when you say in the next sentence that the great majority is gaming the system.'re not saying it's all, just the great majority.

What an improvement. Really, you're damning yourself with that. I'll accept your contention that you believe it's only the great majority.

Fine, then I'll revise my words to say you're just assuming that great majority are shiftless welfare leeches as part of your dogma.

How does that make your actions any better?

Strange that you're so upset at the word "shiftless" though. Why did you edit my post to remove so inoffensive a word? That's more offensive that you would do that.

Shame on you.

hambone, it's too hot to go outside and do anything.

May 27, 2012 at 6:40 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Bulbs you are completely clueless about the role the unions played in the downfall of the steel industry. Weirton steel for one was an ESOP company. The employees actually owned the mill. Guess what...the union employees are the ones who took the profit sharing checks and put them in THEIR pockets!

You have no leg to stand on with this issue. You need to just go back to bashing romney. You're in rarified air with the steel industry issue. You just ASSUME the "corporate CEO's" took the money and ran. No proof at all. That's not what happened at all. Your just stuck on hating company chiefs no matter what. Credibility=0.

May 27, 2012 at 6:46 p.m.

So where's your proof that it was unions? Oh wait, you complain about me without evidence, but offer none for your own contentions?


See when you make demands like that, you put an obligation on yourself first.

Me? I'm not even interested in bothering showing you any facts, you won't see them when they're waving in front of your face. Heck, you'd probably blame the Unions over Chinese government subsidies just to make the point.

May 27, 2012 at 7:02 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Age old leftist tactic...side with the unions...

May 27, 2012 at 7:26 p.m.
mymy said...


This country has a historic decision to make:

May 27, 2012 at 7:37 p.m.

Jack_Dennis: Age-old right-wing reactionary tactic, create outrage against the unions.

Maybe you think Haymarket Square has been forgotten, but not so much.

May 27, 2012 at 7:59 p.m.
moonpie said...


I'm liberal to the core, but for the life of me I don't understand how we can bash Romney for buying, leveraging and even scrapping companies for a profit. I may have wish he made different decisions along the way, but as long as he didn't break the law or infringe on the rights of others, I'll give him a pass.

I'm not convinced his experience is in "turning thing around". Sometimes Bain did that, but profit was the motive. Since government is not and should not be in the profit business, I'm not exactly how his experience at Bain will help America.

Clearly he knows how to get richer. The question is what can he do for the country?

Between the two, I do think Obama is foreword thinking. I actually think Romney is pretty liberal at heart. He's acted that way as governor, but not as a candidate.


I enjoy your posts, but have to agree that BRP and alprova are not even remotely similar.

The only points BRP score over alprova are for brevity. You can fit BRP's posts on a 3x5 index card.... And I mean ALL of his posts, ever.

May 27, 2012 at 8:14 p.m.
alprova said...

Mooonpie wrote: "I'm liberal to the core, but for the life of me I don't understand how we can bash Romney for buying, leveraging and even scrapping companies for a profit. I may have wish he made different decisions along the way, but as long as he didn't break the law or infringe on the rights of others, I'll give him a pass."

I'm definitely in agreement with you on this one. Romney's past at Bain Capital is of little interest to me. I don't have any problem with the money he made, or nor am I interested in knowing how many businesses that were liquidated while he was there. That too is part of the business he was involved with.

At the same time, I am not impressed with his claim that his experience and years at Bain Capital give him any edge to lead this nation as President. Nothing he did at Bain will be part of what he will be doing as President, with the exception of making executive decisions.

"I'm not convinced his experience is in "turning thing around". Sometimes Bain did that, but profit was the motive. Since government is not and should not be in the profit business, I'm not exactly how his experience at Bain will help America."


"Clearly he knows how to get richer. The question is what can he do for the country?"

When it comes right down to it, if his record as Governor of Massachusetts is any indication of what can be expected, a good description would be Obama light.

If he were elected, he could easily slip back into old habits, forgetting much of what he has said on the campaign trail. Most politicians do this to some degree.

"Between the two, I do think Obama is foreword thinking. I actually think Romney is pretty liberal at heart. He's acted that way as governor, but not as a candidate."

I firmly believe that if Romney is elected, he will not turn out to be the staunch Republican/Conservative that the right-wingers are hoping he will be.

I also believe that a good deal of right-wing voters are remotely aware of that probability too. That's why there will be a bunch of folks holding their noses while they cast their votes this November.

May 27, 2012 at 9:02 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Good God, Bulbs. Maybe you ARE a Marxist. Haymartket Sq, my azz.

May 27, 2012 at 9:52 p.m.
alprova said...

I missed this gem earlier today...

JonRoss wrote: "Barry seized GM and laid off thousands."

You're just full of ignorance, aren't you? The President made not one decision related to the reorganization of General Motors. He did not approve nor reject anything that was a part of the plan submitted to the Treasury as part of their assisted bankruptcy filing.

"Most of the dealerships forced to close were owned by GOP sympathetic owners."

I'd love to read any source that you could cite that would begin to back up that asinine claim.

"Crass politcal bullcrap."

Yes indeed, you seem to be full of it, right up to your eyeballs.

"Venture capital using tax payer funds."

Do a little research into the matter to discover that Venture Capitalism is being instituted not only by the Federal Government, but by state and local governments all across the nation, as a means save failing and fledgling companies, in order to boost employment.

Goodness knows that people have given up on the Republican and Tea Party promises made two years ago to right the economy.

"Barry and the Union still owe us 35 billion."

Your information is a little out of date. As of February, if the Government were to cash in all the stock being held in the company, the balance owed at that point would be about $14 billion.

And again, had all those jobs went the wayside, the Federal Government would have paid out three to four times that amount in unemployment compensation by this point.

The decision to save GM also saved the taxpayers of this nation a great deal of money.

Here's a little tidbit of information for all you Obama bashers to chew on.

Mitt Romney defenders have touted a success rate of around 80%-85% in terms of the companies that were saved while he was at Bain Capital.

Since people are so willing to attach Solyndra to the hip of the President, why not tell the rest of the story?

The Energy Department under the Obama Administration has made loans to a total of 32 companies to develop renewable energy products. Solyndra went bankrupt. To the best of my research, the other 31 companies are all still in operation. That's nearly a 97% success rate.

Over the last twenty years, the Government's track record in investing in alternative energy related companies has been rather remarkable. It has lost only 94 cents out of every 100 dollars loaned out or that it guaranteed when invested by others.

Overall, 75,000 jobs have been created as a result of the Department of Energy's loan program. Home weatherization grew 1000% from April to June of 2011, creating 14,800 jobs.

The Obama administration has launched the "Better Buildings Initiative," a program that has already secured billions of private dollars to renovate more than 4 billion square feet of public and private buildings over the next two years, which will be creating 100,000 jobs.

May 27, 2012 at 10:20 p.m.

Jack_Dennis, your attempts at labeling are as pathetic applied to me as they are to President Obama.

All it says to me is that you've been indoctrinated to throw that insult around, so you don't have to face up to your lack of a persuasive argument.

Alprova, don't forget Solyndra built their factory. That's not fraud, and so begs the question, what did happen?

Honest answers reflect on Chinese price-dumping.

Erstwhile conservatives just scream at the bankruptcy as if that was the whole story.

May 27, 2012 at 11:35 p.m.
conservative said...

I told you it would be one of the two!

May 28, 2012 at 8:16 a.m.
jesse said...

WELL i was all primed to vote for Obama and then alprova layed his wisdom on our a$$ and now i'm thinkin maybe Romney is startin to look good!(or at least a lot better!)

BTW: moonpie! alprova and b.r.p. have the same mindset!

brp is a redneck!(and prowd of it!) alprova on the other hand is a pompus elitist jerk!(legend in his own mind type dude!!)

they both have the answers!(in their own minds!) while they differ on what the answers are they KNOW IN THEIR OWN MIND that their answer it THE REAL TRUE WAY!! THAT was what i was tryin to get across!

May 28, 2012 at 8:38 a.m.
moonpie said...


Congratulations on predicting something.

One person's ignored may be another person's vacation, or personal day. Using your standard of ignoring, Clay also is ignoring the heat, Greece, immigration etc.

Conspiracy uncovered.

Bulbs, did you mean erstwhile or meanwhile?

May 28, 2012 at 8:39 a.m.
hotdiggity said...

TOES, I think you have no clue as to the role management had in the demise of the American steel and automotive industry.

Mismanagement, failure to upgrade plants, failure to accept new technology, failure to embrace quality controls, etc. are just a few of the snafus that led to their demise.

Both industries had a virtual monopoly here for decades and allowed their infrastructure to decay as post WWII countries built new plants with superior products while their American counterparts remained stagnant.

A couple of books you might want to peruse, 'The Reckoning' by Pulitzer Prize winner David and 'The Decline of American Steel' by Paul Tiffany. One quote from Tiffany's book regarding American Steel's demise should be noted. "Prior scholarship has generally placed the primary burden of blame for these outcomes on company management. Due to errors in expansion management, neglect of technological innovation, and perhaps the arrogance of corporate power in relation to price and labor policies, critics find the industry responsible for its own demise".

Haberstam' book highlights a man named William Edwards Deming who attempted to attempted to influence American automakers in improving quality controls and reducing the waste of their gas guzzling autos. He was rejected and moved to Japan to work with their automotive industry. He is credited with almost single-handedly turning around the Japanese auto industry. He is considered almost a god even to this day in Japan.

My father dealt with the steel industry for decades and watched as it self-destructed.

May 28, 2012 at 8:44 a.m.
alprova said...

Jesse wrote: "WELL i was all primed to vote for Obama and then alprova layed his wisdom on our a$$ and now i'm thinkin maybe Romney is startin to look good!(or at least a lot better!)"

All that proves is that you base your opinion of a candidate on what other people write, and are incapable of arriving at an opinion on your own.

"BTW: moonpie! alprova and b.r.p. have the same mindset!"

Further proof that you do not comprehend what you read.

"brp is a redneck!(and prowd of it!) alprova on the other hand is a pompus elitist jerk!(legend in his own mind type dude!!)"

Feel free at any time to dispense some meaningful thoughts of your own at any time.

"they both have the answers!(in their own minds!) while they differ on what the answers are they KNOW IN THEIR OWN MIND that their answer it THE REAL TRUE WAY!! THAT was what i was tryin to get across!"

You REALLY need to brush up on your comprehension skills.

May 28, 2012 at 9:08 a.m.
jesse said...

hey al!! some day down the road you WILL git over your self and MAYBE realize that you really are just like the rest of us normal type folks!!(nuttin special just like the rest of us a$$holes!!)

May 28, 2012 at 9:16 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

hotdiggity: The massive union contracts along with overbearing government regulation is what caused the demise of the steel industry. The fictional books that you cite are well known in the steel industry as just that, fiction. Many books were written by left wingers to lay blame away from greedy unions and government regulations.

Except for a few, my entire family worked in the steel mills. My grandfather worked 55 years for Weirton (then National) steel. He knew it was the unions causing trouble! He complained about it all of the time. They made plenty of money but it was never enough.

The unions robbed the mills blind. Almost every tool they had in their garages had "property of Weirton steel" stamped right on them. Your leftist anti-corporation books are all known to be biased pro-union books.

May 28, 2012 at 9:57 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

jesse: You got a point. (except for Bulbs...he's special)

May 28, 2012 at 10:06 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

As conservative said, will we see Bennett draw us a toon about the remembrance of our fallen heroes? Probably not.

Here's a poem from Moina Michael in 1915:

             We cherish too, the poppy red
              that grows on fields where valor led,
              it seems to signal to the skies,
              that blood of heroes never dies.

God bless our fallen soldiers, and god bless America!

May 28, 2012 at 10:16 a.m.
jesse said...

hey jack! i agree!bulbs is in a place i ain't even ever heard of!!lol! i think "nooga" is in there w/him!!

May 28, 2012 at 10:27 a.m.
jesse said...

MAN.when you got toes quotin "patriot ode's" to your ass? you gotta know you are in DEEP KIMCHEE!!periot!lol!

May 28, 2012 at 10:37 a.m.
TOES02800 said...



May 28, 2012 at 10:47 a.m.
chet123 said...


May 28, 2012 at 10:50 a.m.
chet123 said...




May 28, 2012 at 11:01 a.m.
jesse said...

you are right about the steel ind.toes! the unions w/ their wage and benif.packs. but mostly w/ work rules put the mills out of buis.! the bucks the mills needed to put into modernizing the plants went into the work force! by the time the unions realized what was goin down the japanese had taken over the steel ind. the union was standin around w/a dumb look on there face wonderin what the hell went wrong!!

May 28, 2012 at 11:12 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

chet/clay123: So we can add religious bigot to your resume', huh?

May 28, 2012 at 11:52 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

I think chet took the brown acid.

May 28, 2012 at 12:32 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Sorry TOES, but the facts are the facts. Refusal to innovate, upgrade their factories and mills, lack of quality controls, and a monopolistic attitude were the main reason the steel and auto industry lost their edge. The unions negotiated their wages and benefits based on the profits of these corporations which were extraordinary. U S Steel at one time was the largest corporation in the world.

Perhaps you remember 1973 during the oil embargo when the Big Three panicked and finally realized Japanese car companies were eating their lunch with smaller, more efficient, gas saving cars. How did the Big Three respond to Japanese imports? Remember the Vega, AMC Pacer, Ford Maverick, etc. These pieces of junk were management decisions. Americans were demanding better quality and the Japanese supplied this to them. Meanwhile the Big Three ignored quality and stuck with their antiquated factories and mills. Oh, and BTW, the Japanese also had auto unions.

The steel mills were as bad and refused to upgrade their mills and embrace new processes to provide better steel. Sorry TOES, those are just facts.

Since you brought it up about your family, were they union members?

May 28, 2012 at 12:35 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

How can you upgrade the mills when most of the money is going to pay huge union wages and benefits? The unions always got what they wanted, some were getting up to 15 weeks paid vacation a year!! All the in-fighting between the pipe-fitters, riggers, labor gangs and rail gangs effectively tied the hands of management.

Every time management wanted to modernize, the union bosses jumped in and demanded that any extra money should go to bolster their contracts. This happened year after year.

The management in a majority of these mills were just along for the ride, the real decision making power being dictated by the ever strike threatening unions. My family HAD to be in the union to work there. I remember my grandfather saying that his union were a "bunch of bullies" back in the mid-1970's. Turns out he was right.

What would management have to gain by letting the mills die out? The truth is, these union workers thought the golden goose was never going to die.

In the case of my grandfathers mill, National steel sold it to the employees (ESOP). Whereby the union workers were left to call ALL the shots. They milked it dry like kids in a candy store. Now they're cutting grass for a living.

May 28, 2012 at 1:06 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

diggity: It's about WAY more than high union wages...It's about silly work rules, production (lack of) standards, etc......Wages just the tip of the iceberg.

May 28, 2012 at 1:11 p.m.
mymy said...

“The UAW and Chrysler are once again embarrassed as Chrysler workers were caught on camera for the second time in 10 months smoking pot and drinking beer before heading back to work.”

“This time a Fox News affiliate in Detroit filmed the workers partying in front of a UAW hall prior to returning to finish their shift. Americans should be outraged that the billions of dollars of taxpayer money that was spent to bail out Chrysler and General Motors has partially gone to protect the jobs of those in the politically powerful UAW who would reward the favor by brazenly getting high and drunk in public.”

“The Obama Administration and its Auto Task Force had made clear throughout the GM and Chrysler bankruptcy process that UAW members would be given preferential treatment over other, less politically favored, classes. Perhaps this presidential message has emboldened some in the UAW to think that the protection shown would carry forward to pardon them from accountability for such irresponsible and illegal behavior. At a time when many Americans who are out of work would welcome a job that carried the benefits of UAW membership, the workers who display such conduct show a total disregard for the opportunities afforded them by those who sacrificed to enable the continued employment of Chrysler and GM plant workers.”


May 28, 2012 at 1:18 p.m.
alprova said...

mymy quoted: "The Obama Administration and its Auto Task Force had made clear throughout the GM and Chrysler bankruptcy process that UAW members would be given preferential treatment over other, less politically favored, classes."

I realize that this was not your statement, but I want someone...anyone, to back up the claim that the President or anyone in his administration "favored UAW members" in any way.

On March 30, 2009, the President held a press conference to announce his administration's plan to pick up where the GWB administration had left off in saving GM & Chrysler.

In that speech, he categorically stated, "What we’re asking for is difficult. It will require hard choices by companies. It will require unions and workers who have already made extraordinarily painful concessions to do more."

"Let me be clear: The United States government has no interest in running GM. We have no intention of running GM. What we are interested in is giving GM an opportunity to finally make those much-needed changes that will let them emerge from this crisis a stronger and more competitive company."

FACT SHEET: Obama Administration Restructuring Initiative for General Motors - March 31, 2009

"· The UAW has made important concessions on compensation and retiree health care that, while difficult, will help save jobs for active employees, pensions and health care for retirees, and make GM more competitive. In virtually every respect, the concessions that the UAW agreed to are more aggressive than what the Bush Administration originally demanded in its loan agreement with GM."


May 28, 2012 at 2:13 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Sorry TOES, the facts regarding the steel/auto industries refusal to innovate, modernize, and implement quality controls leading to their demise are well known.

-The steel companies stuck with the open hearth furnace long after Japan had moved to the more efficient oxygen furnace. Instead of switching to this technology US plants built bigger open hearth furnaces to try to make up for the lack of efficiency. This created a huge advantage in cost savings to the Japanese.

-Another process was continuous casting, Japan had been using this process ten years earlier then the United States this would cost the United States more efficiency in the long run.

-U S steel mills were also 10 years late in implementing computers in their plants which further reduced their efficiency. The Japanese used these advantages to produce better, cheaper, and more steel.

-Quality control was given short shrift.

Their demise was of their own making. Even while making enormous profits and being the largest companies in the world they refused to invest in the infrastructure needed to compete. They were more concerned with quarterly profits.

Please feel free to refute the above with facts. Also I would be willing to bet that your family members who were in the union were very satisfied making union wages, overtime, pension, workplace safety, etc. I would also be willing to bet that they embraced the idea that workers should have a say in negotiating their sweat and labor in an industry as labor intensive and dangerous as steel mills. Perhaps they also noticed the obscene profits that management wished to keep for themselves? Ya think?

To bad they did not pass along to you the concept that a person should not have to prostrate themselves at the company altar to receive a fair wage relevant to the profits of the company. It seems that even YOU have profited from your families union membership.

Ironic? Yes indeed.

May 28, 2012 at 3:49 p.m.

And alprova,Still arguing over the steel industry? Well thanks for answering hotdiggity, but I'm afraid you have wasted your time.

I know I wouldn't have bothered.

But you did forget to mention all the government regulation that the steel industry lobbyists wanted. To try to keep foreign steel out. Yay protective tariffs!

Moonpie, erstwhile in the ironic sense.

May 28, 2012 at 6:40 p.m.
alprova said...

Hwnb wrote: "And alprova,Still arguing over the steel industry?"

I think if you will look back, you will find that I have not offered one post on that subject.

But, since you brought up the subject of tariffs, the dumping of cheap Japanese steel into the U.S. did cause a great deal of what led to many steel companies going under.

May 28, 2012 at 7:49 p.m.

alprova, my bad, I meant to put my bit to you elsewhere(as you can see, it's at the start, and clearly not meant to be there), with a bit of a remark thanking you for your comments on the auto industry, but I was on a touch screen, and sometimes it just seems to move text around inadvertently.

But don't forget about the foreign dumping today, from China.

May 28, 2012 at 8:30 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Weirton steel built it's basic oxygen furnace in 1966. I have steel news bulletins from the 1960's, 1970's and the 1980's saying how modern their new plants were.

Wheeling-Pittsburgh steel installed an electric arc furnace well after the writing was on the wall.

Are you suggesting that Japan should be forced to sell their steel at a much higher cost just to make American prices look comparable? That, in turn, would hurt all of the building trades, potential expansion of businesses and everyone involved with the building industry. Which are more numerous than steelworkers. The "Japanese steel dumping" reasoning is based in mythology. The Japanese were doing nothing more than filling a need for steel at the proper prices. American steel cost too much because of the cost added per ton by the far-out union wages and benefit packages. Why do YOU think American steel was pricing itself out of the market?

Japan wasn't "dumping" steel on the market, They were selling steel to American suppliers at a price the U.S. market couldn't cope with.

As far as benefiting from the huge union contracts, maybe, maybe not. But I personally know many ex-steelworkers making minimum wage now who wish they would have seen the big picture when the contracts were being signed. Many admit to trying to live upper-class in what in reality were middle-class jobs.

May 28, 2012 at 9:55 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES02800, for someone who allegedly has union roots, you seem to now seem to be exclusively blaming everyone who has ever held a union job in the American steel industry for its downfall. Blaming the workers for being brainwashed by union representation isn't right, in all cases.

The fact is that what led to what happened to the American steel industry involved several factors, including competition from massive importation of cheaper made products from Asia.

The same thing led to the total elimination of American manufacturing in this nation of electronics, clothing, baseballs, shoes, sardines, and flatware that you eat your meals with.

Unions in this nation should be thanked for improving the working conditions that practically every American enjoys today. A hundred years ago, children as young as eight years old worked in filthy factories. 16 hour workdays, seven days per week, for pennies on the dollar were not uncommon. When a worker was killed on the job due to unsafe working conditions, his carcass was carried out with no fanfare and someone had a new job within minutes.

That aside, I will stipulate that unions, after years of being empowered to negotiate on behalf of their members, sometimes went too far.

In 1980, I worked in a local mill that produced cotton material used in blue jeans. Long story short, Asian imports forced a competitive environment that dictated a reduction in domestic wages across the industry. Union representation lied to the workers, claiming that the company's plea for a reduction was a rouse. The vote went against accepting a reduction.

The mill closed up 30 days later and 3,000 people lost their jobs. I saw the writing on the wall and found me a new job two weeks before the mill closed. Most of the people I worked with lost just about everything they had worked for, stupidly waiting for the mill to reopen until the unemployment benefits ran out.

The current movement to eliminate all unions in this nation is a mistake, especially if there is any movement as well to eliminate worker protections that were instituted by unions. Trust me, there are many employers and politicians in Washington working on their behalf, who would love to eliminate a litany of workplace safety rules, the minimum wage, and other employee protections and benefits that we take for granted now.

May 28, 2012 at 10:41 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

I agree it's not all unions, but in the cases I talk about, if not for the unions these mills may still be open. Unions that control everything, usually destroy everything.

May 28, 2012 at 11:15 p.m.

The steel industry in America certainly wanted prices higher. They lobbied for them. And still are. Whether their arguments were or are legitimate is another question. You can certainly make that argument for the production of rare earths as well. People confused Chinese dominance of that industry with some greater natural supply.

Of course, in other fields, American and European farmers are putting other farmers out of work, and that's causing problems too. And American manufacturing is still quite high. Just not the average consumer good you see. Combine that with productivity increases and employment continues to slide down.

May 28, 2012 at 11:20 p.m.
acerigger said...

Someone clue me in,I've forgotten,WHO might it be that removed tariffs from foreign steel?

May 28, 2012 at 11:41 p.m.

TOES02800, I've never noticed you being selective in your criticisms, just a broad and sweeping condemnation.

You might do well to consider that anybody who controls anything runs a risk of destroying it. I've seen micro-managing executives accomplish it too. Quite readily.

Somehow they always tried to turn the blame on the subordinates.

acerigger, which ones? I'm aware of three and I know they weren't all of them.

May 28, 2012 at 11:52 p.m.
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