published Tuesday, November 27th, 2012

Self Reflection

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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Jack_Dennis said...

hackneyed theme

November 27, 2012 at 12:43 a.m.
GratefulDawg said...

Mittferatu will blame forty-seven percent of Americans as lazy, garlic breath, mustard seed spreaders that are jealous of his awesome fangs and fiendishly low tax-rates.

His buddy The Count is still looking for 270 electoral votes. Two-Hundred and Six, Ah, ah, ah.

November 27, 2012 at 12:49 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mitt was wrong...probably close to 60%

November 27, 2012 at 12:54 a.m.
miraweb said...

Nice!!

November 27, 2012 at 1:37 a.m.
fairmon said...

Who actually has the blood sucking fangs?

The IRS releases data showing the average 2010 taxes paid by those with incomes of:

o $30,000 and less negative due to earned income credits.

o $30-50,000 averaged paying 4.8% income tax.

o $50-100,000 7.7%

o Incomes of $1-1.5 million or more paid an average of 20.4%%

o $1.5-2 million paid 25.1%.

Those selfish low life high income folks are only paying 3-4 times what those with incomes in the $30,000 to $100,000 income range pay, just not fair, they need to pay their fair share.

Sink those fangs in an artery and suck the blood out of them until they can't earn so much. Equally impoverished is more fair than allowing the wealthy to only pay 3-4 times what the rest of us pay. Abolish deductions and push them closer to the published 35% rate. We can't require hedge fund managers to treat their management fees and gains as regular income instead of capital gains with so many members of congress in hedge funds.

What's fair is fair, the problem is determining what is fair and what is greed. Is greed those wanting to keep what they have or is greed wanting to benefit by taking more of what someone else has?

Would taxing what is spent be more fair than taxing income? It would certainly increase what those with high incomes pay and reduce what those with lower incomes pay.

November 27, 2012 at 5:17 a.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennnis wrote: "Mitt was wrong...probably close to 60%"

Why would anyone whose posting history clearly indicates that they do not have a job to go to each day, make such a statement?

You're clearly dependent upon the Government for your sustainment, thus making you a hypocrite of the worst order, and it puts you squarely into the category that he was referring to, with the exception that you were one of HIS supporters.

Mitt was wrong to blow off all of those who received their income from the Government as Obama supporters, wasn't he?

You'd never admit it, but your entire world revolves around spending day after day checking in to this forum, changing your avatar each day, and perusing the posts to see who your next victim is that you can bash with your inflammatory comments, which makes you a rather pathetic individual.

It's gotta be tough being you, looking down all the time on other people, from that perch you you stand on all the time, made of pure Jello.

Mitt's assessment was wrong. He is a loser with lots of money that he made by pilfering it off the backs of numerous Americans that were put out of jobs over three decades.

His shtick was vulture capitalism of the worst order and eying the Presidency of the country.

Your shtick involves sitting behind a computer all day long, guarding your anonymity with a tight fist, making nasty comments all day long about others.

And yet, as diverse as the two of you may be, you're two peas in the same pod when it comes to how you view and treat your fellow Americans.

November 27, 2012 at 6:35 a.m.
Maximus said...

I would guess that after another four years of the managed decline into mediocrity by obamer and his ruling class ole Clay will still be drawing cartoons blaming W and pounding his fellow Americans. How many times are you gonna spike the ball Clay? What is it with communist men and facial hair?....hmmmm...Castro, Clay, Stalin, Clay, and oh yes that animated big government socialist dictator....Hitler and Clay. Oh yea I forgot the nut job Charlie Manson and Clay. Weird man.

November 27, 2012 at 7 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "Those selfish low life high income folks are only paying 3-4 times what those with incomes in the $30,000 to $100,000 income range pay, just not fair, they need to pay their fair share."

You're like everyone else out there with a little money, who just loves to whine and moan about how they are being victimized for being demanded to pay more in taxes.

The simple fact is that people who earn less than $30,000 a year, who you point out do not pay taxes and likely receive earned income credits, aren't exactly living the life of Riley. Most of what they earn barely supports their living expenses.

"Sink those fangs in an artery and suck the blood out of them until they can't earn so much. Equally impoverished is more fair than allowing the wealthy to only pay 3-4 times what the rest of us pay."

Does their paying more put limits on their lifestyles? Are they having to make decisions at the end of the month which bills to pay and which to put off until later? Are they eating crap food because that is all they can afford to eat? Do they struggle to pay the rent on time each month or drive cars that they pray on a daily basis will make it back and forth to work?

"Abolish deductions and push them closer to the published 35% rate. We can't require hedge fund managers to treat their management fees and gains as regular income instead of capital gains with so many members of congress in hedge funds."

Income should be income, regardless where it is derived, and it should all be taxed equally and uniformly, so long as taxation surrounds what one earns.

"What's fair is fair, the problem is determining what is fair and what is greed. Is greed those wanting to keep what they have or is greed wanting to benefit by taking more of what someone else has?"

Demanding more from those who have more is indeed fair, any way you slice it or dice it. Demanding more from those at the opposite end of the spectrum is ridiculous.

The word "greed" has a clear definition Harp. Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.

It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power.

I cannot imagine anyone who is barely getting by to begin to qualify as one who could be described as being greedy.

"Would taxing what is spent be more fair than taxing income? It would certainly increase what those with high incomes pay and reduce what those with lower incomes pay."

Yes it would, but until the day comes that 535 Representatives in Congress can be convinced of that, income taxes shall remain the law of this land and the whining will continue by those who earn those high incomes.

November 27, 2012 at 7:02 a.m.
Reardon said...

Harp -- to expect a rational argument from a group of avowed Solcialists is borderline psychotic.

I don't know why you continue to post. I agree with you mostly, but the bottom-line fact is the electorate has changed.

They want Stuff. And more of it. And those who give more aren't giving enough.

Time to go Galt, I say.

November 27, 2012 at 7:13 a.m.
Maximus said...

For a guy that attended elite private schools from first grade through college obamer sure loves his class warfare. Especially funny from a man that did not have a real job until his thirties. If anyone has not paid their so called fair share its obamer er er I mean Obama. Time to pay back all those government loans while you got an "incomplete" as a foreign exchange student at Haaaarvaad! Transcripts Barry.....where are the transcripts? I guess alprova an obvious member of the glbt community does not even have a little money...sad...so sad. I just hope Obama can make everything fair and no one will ever, ever get their feelings hurt again. There, there alprova mommie and daddy will continue to provide their 26 year old child healthcare and you can keep your room with the Star Wars posters for as long as you like! Yummy!

November 27, 2012 at 7:36 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said....

Demanding more from those who have more is indeed fair, any way you slice it or dice it. IN YOUR OPINION OF COURSE. Coveting would be more descriptive of your desire to take more from those that already pay a much higher percent of their income.

alpro added.... Demanding more from those at the opposite end of the spectrum is ridiculous.

There was nothing in the post "demanding" more from those at the opposite end of the scale. The earned income credit is hidden welfare that should be unhinged from the tax system and treated as a welfare program.

November 27, 2012 at 8:15 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

Income should be income, regardless where it is derived, and it should all be taxed equally and uniformly, so long as taxation surrounds what one earns.

A real world example....a couple saved their entire working career, no vacations, a modest home, a used older car. Their after tax savings were invested in blue chip dividend paying stocks to supplement their income in retirement to avoid living only on social security. Their principle was reduced when the market tanked so they have access to less than invested but they still have to pay taxes on dividends paid on their already taxed invested money plus the company paying the dividend has already paid taxes on profits before paying dividends.....tell me how that ponzi scheme is fair to someone that worked for 48 years and paid taxes on every penny earned and saved.

The maximum investment loss that can be deducted per year is $3,000 regardless of how much the loss on an investment is. Would your thesis allow taking the entire loss in one year if all income were taxed as regular income?

November 27, 2012 at 8:35 a.m.
timbo said...

Do you think people like me give damn what dumb asses like Bennett and the rest of you liberal piss ants think. You are so stupid that you don't realize that if my business taxes are raised or I have to pay more for Obamacare that I will raise prices and pass it on to you imbeciles. As a matter of fact I might just tack on another 10% as a " nuisance" surcharge. 1 dime won't come out of my pocket

So laugh it up while you idiots take one step forward and two steps back.

Fair is where you go to ride the Farris wheel and see the freak show. .....you know, like the democrat convention You can all kiss my hairy butt.

November 27, 2012 at 8:37 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Merry Christmas

November 27, 2012 at 8:55 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Reardon said..."Time to go Galt, I say."

Going Galt is the ultimate expression of selfishness. Yet, you would criticize (mistakenly) others because they "want stuff". Your logic doesn't compute.

November 27, 2012 at 8:56 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ALPO has now added clairvoyance to his repertoire. One sick puppy.

November 27, 2012 at 8:57 a.m.
timbo said...

Also isn't even a good dog food

November 27, 2012 at 9:01 a.m.
jjmez said...

harp3339 said... Who actually has the blood sucking fangs? The IRS releases data showing the average 2010 taxes paid by those with incomes of: o $30,000 and less negative due to earned income credits. o $30-50,000 averaged paying 4.8% income tax.

Earned income credit is based on family size and not the income earned. To qualify for earned income the person has to have a dependent who is a child or disabled person they're responsible for. A single or married person making 30K or less, without or with only one or two dependents would likely pay more taxes per income % wise than someone making 100K and more. Therefore, your findings are flawed because it doesn't address every individuals situation.

November 27, 2012 at 9:07 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "Coveting would be more descriptive of your desire to take more from those that already pay a much higher percent of their income."

How can that be? It doesn't wind up in my pockets. I've been writing checks to the IRS for each and every quarter for 30 years.

November 27, 2012 at 9:17 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ALPO: Perhaps you should increase those quarterly returns. Would that not "feel good"? Maybe a few extra "feel good" dollars? Hmmm?

November 27, 2012 at 9:21 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "A real world example....a couple saved their entire working career, no vacations, a modest home, a used older car. Their after tax savings were invested in blue chip dividend paying stocks to supplement their income in retirement to avoid living only on social security. Their principle was reduced when the market tanked so they have access to less than invested but they still have to pay taxes on dividends paid on their already taxed invested money plus the company paying the dividend has already paid taxes on profits before paying dividends.....tell me how that ponzi scheme is fair to someone that worked for 48 years and paid taxes on every penny earned and saved."

Harp, your completely overlooking the fact that the company that pays the dividend gets to write of that entire amount as an expense.

The dividends received by the couple is new income to them, and thus should be taxed.

"The maximum investment loss that can be deducted per year is $3,000 regardless of how much the loss on an investment is. Would your thesis allow taking the entire loss in one year if all income were taxed as regular income?"

Absolutely. If someone loses more than they earn, then they should be able to claim it immediately, but all income, regardless of its source, should be taxed at the same rate.

November 27, 2012 at 9:26 a.m.
MTJohn said...

JonRoss said..."Good story from Pravada. It pretty much nails barack hussien obama."

So, JonRoss, if communism is succeeding under Obama while failing under Putin, when do you plan on emigrating to Russia?

November 27, 2012 at 9:28 a.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennis wrote: "ALPO has now added clairvoyance to his repertoire. One sick puppy."

Call me whatever makes you happy, but I can't help but notice that you didn't call me wrong.

November 27, 2012 at 9:32 a.m.
alprova said...

Timbo wrote: "Do you think people like me give damn what dumb asses like Bennett and the rest of you liberal piss ants think."

Quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

"You are so stupid that you don't realize that if my business taxes are raised or I have to pay more for Obamacare that I will raise prices and pass it on to you imbeciles."

That only holds true for those who choose to patronize your business. I'm sure you aren't the only game in town.

"As a matter of fact I might just tack on another 10% as a " nuisance" surcharge. 1 dime won't come out of my pocket"

Give it your best shot.

"So laugh it up while you idiots take one step forward and two steps back."

I've pointed out several times that for the past decade, you on the right have had every chance in the world to prove that lower taxation creates jobs, pours more revenue into the Gov't, keeps the economy rolling along, etc., and we all know it is pure bunk.

It's time to pay the tab.

"Fair is where you go to ride the Farris wheel and see the freak show. .....you know, like the democrat convention You can all kiss my hairy butt."

No thanks. I get more pleasure from seeing idiots like yourself squirm for a change.

November 27, 2012 at 9:39 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Yawn

November 27, 2012 at 9:44 a.m.
timbo said...

Aloof.......weak, even for you

November 27, 2012 at 10:01 a.m.
tderng said...

alprova said... Greed is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one's self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort.

Well, now we know. Liberals think that if you work hard and become successful the government should take all your earnings above that which is needed for basic survival and comfort.

Then their paradise of equality would be recognized. The only problem is that instead of everyone being equally rich they will all be equally poor. Except for the ruling liberal elite of course.

November 27, 2012 at 10:13 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

tderng: Yeah, but ALPO is da man in his little cubicle in a run down strip-center. He's the smartest guy in the building. Cept for the guy that sweeps. But he feeeeeels good about himself because he's sooooo liberal and open minded. Bwahahahaha

November 27, 2012 at 10:27 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ALPO would've made the ultimate politician. What a total blow-hard. I can hear him now, "I'm with the gubmint and I'm here to help".

November 27, 2012 at 11:19 a.m.
alprova said...

Miss forever alone, I did not challenge that taxes on profits were paid before dividends are awarded, but the fact is once they are dispersed, those dividends are considered an expense and then written off as such.

Anytime a business pays out funds for a doggone thing, they are considered expenses.

You really need to quit wading in on issues that you clearly know nothing about, by cutting and pasting information that has nothing at all to do with what was discussed.

November 27, 2012 at 11:27 a.m.
jesse said...

Ya know tuo has an abrasive style BUT she does score some points!

Apparently Al gets to set the agenda on whats discussed on here!

November 27, 2012 at 11:31 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Self-reflection? If Romney had welcome the Ron Paulers into his big tent instead of stealing delegates and changing rules, and all the Ron Paul primary voters had voted for Romney instead of staying home, Romney would've won in November. If Romney had shown he was for the little guy by saying Chip Mellor of the Institute for Justice would be his attorney general, and that denouncing the Kelo verdict would be a litmus test for judicial appointees, he might've overcome suspicion of his Wall Street insider status (and improved policy). If he had more clearly kept pointing out that our current President is a failure even by his own atandards--Solyndra is dead but Gitmo is alive, the deficit is double instead of half, etc.--and denounced him for defending the problem of having made too many promises against anything like a solution, he might've won. If he had denounced O'Romneycare for forcing healthy people (notably young people) to pay sick people to be sick, he might've won.

November 27, 2012 at 11:43 a.m.
MTJohn said...

JonRoss said..."mt you are either ignorant or dishonest."

JR - why do you say that? You posted a link to an article. I read it and, given the content of the article and your recommendation, I asked an honest question.

November 27, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Andrew - if Romney had welcomed the Ron Paulers into his tent, many of the moderate R's and independents would have gone out the back door and the election would not have been as close as it was.

November 27, 2012 at 11:51 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

"The earned income credit is hidden welfare that should be unhinged from the tax system and treated as a welfare program." - harp3339

Seems like everybody who slams the EITC regards it in pretty much the same light as harp here, as if it's just welfare, or a "socialist" freebie. Whatever one chooses to call it, even the poster boy of anti-government ideology, Ronnie Reagan, never spoke of it so disparagingly. He called it "the best anti-poverty, the best pro-family, the best job creation measure to come out of Congress." George H.W. Bush praised it as well.

Take from it what you will. I'm just sayin'.

November 27, 2012 at 11:58 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

AndyLohr: Romney was such an unattractive candidate, I doubt there was much he could have done to swing the election. Plus he made epic boners. Would I have preferred him over the Messiah? Of course. But he realistically had no chance. Politically, the Repubs have a lot to learn on the national level.

November 27, 2012 at 11:59 a.m.
carlB said...

The voters stopped believing the lies of the Republicans against President Obama and the USA won. What The Republicans are telling us while lying and evading the years of the Bush W. administration, does not have any substance or body to reflect in the "mirror" for getting this Republic out of the trouble that they left it. With this Republic already in the economic crisis before President Obama was elected, they wanted to falsify putting the blame on Obama while obstructing the stabilizing of the 2007 deep recession progress to get back in control so they could finish destroying all of FDR's New Deal policies; cut taxes, cut Government entitlement spending and wait on the private sectors to correct the crisis financial economic conditions while nothing was being done to put the people back to work, leaving the masses to "fend" for themselves during an undetermined length of time. The BIG QUESTION's to ask are; Was this Republic on a sustainable economic and physical trend at the end of the last administration's eight years? In my opinion, it was not on a long-term sustainable path. But when President Obama took Office, what occurred to his enemies' concerns for what to do for the good of this Republic? The opponents of Obama appeared to forget about the crisis conditions and doing good for this Republic. They decided to turn against the President and to obstruct his efforts to get this country back on a sustainable long-tern trend. There appears to be many reasons for his opponents wanting to cause his failure and most of their judgment against Obama appears to be based on a biased political and ideological reasoning.”

November 27, 2012 at 12:01 p.m.
limric said...

Pretty 'ok' today Clay.

I think a better metaphor (and with infinite truthiness) for today’s cartoon would be any right winger - take your pick; O’Reilly, Hannity, Boehner, Ryan, Limbaugh, Coulter et al. dressed not as a vampire but as a priest, pastor or even Jesus himself.

There, standing in front of the mirror (same medal around the neck) gazing at their reflection, confused – pondering – why their self-righteousness is failing them. Contemptuous of everyone...but themselves. The mirror thus reflects nothing absent from the body, but the whole - a reality. The earths true Vampires.

November 27, 2012 at 12:10 p.m.
alprova said...

Jesse wrote: "Apparently Al gets to set the agenda on whats discussed on here!"

I don't set agendas, but if someone is going to attempt to credibly refute me, it would be far preferable to address what I did type, rather than something that I did not type.

November 27, 2012 at 12:14 p.m.
carlB said...

Even now that President Obama has been properly elected for his second term, his enemies have not let up in their trying make the voters think they made another mistake by voting Obama in for his second term. Thus dividing the voters against him as if they are trying to "oust" him out of Office instead of putting this Republic ahead of their Party policies.

November 27, 2012 at 12:20 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

limric: nasty. just nasty. but what would you expect from the far-left?

November 27, 2012 at 12:21 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Seems Democrats would rather go off the fiscal cliff than put solutions like entitlements and long term debt reduction on the table. Just not in their DNA. Plus their constituents wouldn't like it. Keep that base!!

November 27, 2012 at 12:22 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

"Ya know tuo has an abrasive style BUT she does score some points! Apparently Al gets to set the agenda on whats discussed on here!" - jesse

And taoist, independent, objective, unbiased, all-wise, can't-let-a-day-go-by-without-saying-"idjit" jesse serves as our moderator and judge. He just calls 'em as he sees 'em, folks. We can all rest assured that if there are any idjits among us he will sniff 'em out and flag 'em. You can run but you can't hide from...judge jesse the idjit flagger.

November 27, 2012 at 12:30 p.m.
jesse said...

I think maybe limric thinks he needs to start doin Clays toons for him! Maybe lettin his avatar go to his head a little bit!!

O.K. I'm waiten!!

November 27, 2012 at 12:33 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

JD, you mean like Republicans are so bipartisan, willing, and eager to put military spending cuts and doing away with corporate welfare on the table? Is that how you mean, JD?

November 27, 2012 at 12:38 p.m.
jesse said...

Hey ROO I got my faults BUT being a serial flagger ain't one ofum!

I think maybe you got a bad case of "alligator mouth and humminbird ass!" LOL

November 27, 2012 at 12:40 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

I said what I mean little ricky. seems you don't want to comment on that.

November 27, 2012 at 12:40 p.m.
limric said...

Jack_Dennis growled at me saying, “nasty. just nasty. but what would you expect from the far-left?”

Hark! What was that I heard?

Did my ears deceive me?

OH NO YOU DI-ENT!

BEHOLD, for it is, in all its… splendor, Pbffft - ‘The pot calling the kettle black.’

Fabulous.

November 27, 2012 at 1:16 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

JD and his BWAHAHAHAs, jesse and his LOLs, T_Q and her LMFaOs...can't you guys say anything without laughing like maniacs? Oh wait...that's just what maniacs do, isn't it?

November 27, 2012 at 1:19 p.m.
carlB said...

Since the Democratic people of the TN 3rd and 4th US Congressional Districts do not have any respresentation in Washington,for the next two years, Alan Grayson got reelected in Florida by the people who used their "senses" for the good of this Republic and their good judgment to return him back to Congress. I do not believe he likes the policies of the Republicans. Maybe we can "adopt" Alan as our Representative to speak on our behalf for the not two years? Yesterday Grayson for Congress: “Let’s Stop Stealing From the Poor. They Have No Money Left.” social.memberemail.com

http://social.memberemail.com/Share.aspx?i=346e8973cb7d2059f9310bc599907887d62fc05b7c8ecad64d0d66138dfc6c57

November 27, 2012 at 1:23 p.m.
jesse said...

ROO,that is so lame i don't know why you bothered to post it!

Stick to being a jerk,humor is not your strong suit!

You take yourself AND what go's on here WAY to serious!

November 27, 2012 at 1:24 p.m.
carlB said...

There are people who think it is the "Right" of the Capitalist to make as much money (profit) as possible without any controls or consumer or workers' protection, and without any bargaining rights or representation for the workers. The results of the global economy from buying the imported goods that we consume made at a cost that US workers cannot compete, have caused negative effects on our economy. Thus, the higher profit margin for the "Capitalist," with the one to two percent of upper incomes are provided with benefits for the CEO's, increasing up to 400 percent of the workers' wages. History tells us that this puts the welfare of this Republic's trade deficit on an unsustainable path of the "Race to the bottom." YES, when we continue buying the imported goods which are owned by the global corporate monopolies, our manufacturing jobs and our middle class of people will continue disappearing.

November 27, 2012 at 1:26 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

rickyroo sounds like he's eleven

November 27, 2012 at 1:26 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Yessir, taoist jesse. I shall follow the path of least resistance and heed your sage advice. I am not funny, I am a jerk...I am not funny, I am a jerk....I am not funny, I am a jerk. Probabably an "idjit" too. Nam myoho renge kyo. Jesse hath spoken. Amen.

November 27, 2012 at 1:32 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

JR: True. But Nixon's press corp were not Court Eunuchs like Obama's. He may last a tad longer.

November 27, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.

Ah, the problem of self-examination is indeed rampant, some of us seeing ourselves as better than we are, some as worse.

But I think the current GOP is demonstrating a dogged determination to view themselves as the persecuted American heroes who are just victims of an electorate that is a bunch of lazy leeches.

Will they ever stop to consider that they might be overcome with their own arrogance?

I don't think the puzzled look seen on the vampire here will ever happen. I recall the convinced remarks from pundits who thought states like Wisconsin, Michigan or Pennsylvania were up for grabs.

Harp3339, actually such sales/spending taxes tend to be most regressive, impacting those who have to spend more of their income disproportionately. Even the flat-tax advocates have to claim they have a solution for that.

Me? I want taxes to be progressive, I don't labor under the pretense that an "equal share" is necessarily fair. If you want to address fairness, construct an objective analysis of benefits received through government operations. Good luck with that dataset.

AndrewLohr, Mitt Romney made several false claims about Solyndra, about the size of the Navy, and more. They only showed the weakness of his own criticisms since they lacked veracity. Which is probably why Romney tried to claim criticizing him showed weakness. Did he think we only heard his zinger while being oblivious to his own litany of negative remarks?

And being upset about Guantanamo? How can Republicans possibly claim that is a problem when they opposed its closure? Are you not aware how that only shows your hypocrisy.

As for living in his own world, Romney apparently felt entitled to live in one where Syria was Iran's route to the sea...

November 27, 2012 at 1:49 p.m.
MickeyRat said...

Jack_Dennis: nasty. just nasty. but what would you expect from the far-right?

You're such a Tard!

November 27, 2012 at 2:01 p.m.
jesse said...

I hope Obama serves out his term,we don't need Biden at the helm!!

That's a scary thought!

November 27, 2012 at 2:06 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

JR, if Benghazi remains an "issue," it will only be because you conservative nitwits keep making an issue out of it, like you did with "voter fraud" and Monicagate. Ken Starr and Republicans wasted precious time and millions of dollars trying to dig up more dirt on Clinton over a mere matter of his stupidity and lapse in judgment in succumbing to a BJ from a bimbo. And you wasted precious time and effort focusing on "voter fraud" when the only fraud was Republicans trying to manipulate votes in their favor.

There is nothing more to Benghazi than meets the eye. It was an unfortunate event and you will never turn up any conspiracy or cover-up or anything sinister at all. But keep on digging, why don't you, and form a committee to investigate and spend millions of dollars - that's all Republicans know how to do. Funny how you never wanted anybody to investigate Bush's HUGE lapses in judgment and overt LIES about Iraq and WMD and his failure to look into pre-9/11 intelligence that warned of an upcoming terrorist attack within the U.S. But four people are killed under a Democrat aministration in an attack on an embassy in already volatile part of the world and you cry cover-up or egregious negligence! Pathetic hypocrites.

November 27, 2012 at 2:06 p.m.
jesse said...

Hey Roo, right now it's all the repub's. got to hang their hat on so it ain't gonna go away!

Like J.D.said ,if the press corps went after this like they went after Nixon it would be over in 18 mo's.

What the repubs. need to consider is if they are successful it puts Biden in the drivers seat and we don't need that!!

November 27, 2012 at 2:16 p.m.

JonRoss, DesJarlais is certainly an example of hypocrisy. How can he pretend to be opposed to abortions while having used them for his own benefits?

It does seem to be the pattern of the GOP. Why pointing that out comes across to you as an endorsement, I don't know.

Also, you're wrong about taxes. As usual. The GDP of this country is far higher than the deficit, and that's not even talking about actual wealth. You're like a person sitting on a stack of gold bars and claiming you can't possibly fix the roof. Or the debt.

That said, we can reduce the spending on healthcare while improving service, without trying to impoverish retirees in the name of fiscal responsibility hysteria. Yes, I know you believe entitlement is a dirty word, but some of us recognize that they aren't. That the real disaster has been the voodoo economics and trickle-down tax structure of the Right. Starve the beast has been the plan, and yet who do they expect to pay the consequences of their methods?

Do pretend you're somehow better, when your own intolerance is evident. Oh wait, that's more right-wing hypocrisy.

You are your own worst enemy.

November 27, 2012 at 2:18 p.m.
carlB said...

jesse said... Hey Roo, right now it's all the repub's. got to hang their hat on so it ain't gonna go away! Like J.D.said ,if the press corps went after this like they went after Nixon it would be over in 18 mo's. ====Reply: jesse, you're right, President Obama, got reelected when his enemies thought they had lied enough and spent enough to convince the voters to vote against him. SO, now they think there is probable cause to get him unelected after the fact,because of the of the circumstances of four people getting killed. McCain and Graham are on a roll with trying to prove what? For what purposes?

November 27, 2012 at 3:06 p.m.
fairmon said...

alpro said....

Harp, your completely overlooking the fact that the company that pays the dividend gets to write of that entire amount as an expense.

You may want to do a little research on that...corportate prfits are taxed before a dividend is declared or paid. Some have actually paid a dividend in quarters where there were no profits. Dividends are not a "cost of doing business" or a write off for the company. REITS and MLP's are obligated to distribute 90% of their profits to share holders which is a totally different propostion than a standard dividend paying stock. It appears you may invest in CD's and pay tax on the small amount of interest or do you just put cash in a safe and let inflation eat away at it. Dividends should not be taxed period.

November 27, 2012 at 3:13 p.m.
fairmon said...

CarlB said....

when we continue buying the imported goods which are owned by the global corporate monopolies, our manufacturing jobs and our middle class of people will continue disappearing.

You are right, therefore the answer to the problem is what? Borrow more, print more, tax more, regulate more, more welfare? more unions? Bad mouth businesses and the successful unmercifully? Jiggle the tax rates around a little? Add government employees?What to do, what to do and still be elected again?

November 27, 2012 at 3:25 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

MickeyRat: Was it something I said?

November 27, 2012 at 3:33 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Hard to imagine anyone being a worse president than the Messiah. Until I think about Plugs Biden.

November 27, 2012 at 3:37 p.m.
limric said...

JonRoss said...”The lies and the cover-up by obama of the Benghazi consulate killings are catching up with him quickly. Nixon lasted about 18 months into his second term. Expect obama not to last that long.”

C’MON!! Now you clamor for transparency and investigations, accusations of a cover-up and incompetence. Seems to me I remember reading and seeing on the TV:


June 14, 2002, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan Suicide bomber kills 12 and injures 51.

February 20, 2003, international diplomatic compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia Truck bomb kills 17.

February 28, 2003, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan Gunmen on motorcycles killed two consulate guards.

July 30, 2004, U.S. embassy in Tashkent, Uzbekistan Suicide bomber kills two.

December 6, 2004, U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia Militants stormed and occupied perimeter wall. Five killed, 10 wounded.

March 2, 2006, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan Suicide car bomber killed four, including a U.S. diplomat directly targeted by the assailants.

September 12, 2006, U.S. embassy in Damascus, Syria Gunmen attacked embassy with grenades, automatic weapons, and a car bomb (though second truck bomb failed to detonate). One killed and 13 wounded.

January 12, 2007, U.S. embassy in Athens, Greece A rocket-propelled grenade was fired at the embassy building. No one was injured.

July 9, 2008, U.S. consulate in Istanbul, Turkey Armed men attacked consulate with pistols and shotguns. Three policemen killed.

March 18, 2008, U.S. embassy in Sana'a, Yemen Mortar attack misses embassy, hits nearby girls' school instead.

September 17, 2008, U.S. embassy in Sana'a, Yemen Militants dressed as policemen attacked the US embassy with RPGs, rifles, grenades and car bombs. Six Yemeni soldiers and seven civilians were killed. Sixteen more were injured.


Whoopsies. You con-servatives have incredibly selective memories.

Or about the biggest, most catastrophic attack and murder of Americans? As in New York, Sept. 11, 2001, Ohh yeah!! — all under a Republican administration. GW and his Texas Mafia had nine warnings - NINE - that al-Qaida would attack within the United States, but they did absolutely nothing. Did anyone in that administration get hammered for that stunning incompetence? Um – nope!

Give me a break. The only concern you have is your self-serving partisan BS.

November 27, 2012 at 3:43 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Good post, limric. However I'm sure the facts you included will not carry any weight whatsover with the self-righteous, hypocritical conservatives. When screw-ups happen on their watch it's just innocent human error or the unavoidable acts of hostile enemies. But when unfortunate events take place under a Democrat it's conspiracy or supreme incompetence.

November 27, 2012 at 4:16 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

Perfect cartoon.... Just read the comments comming from the right if you want validation. I've read it was the primary fight I've read it's the gifts but what I've not read is how the Republicans can move away from the far right. By far right I mean the core of of the party that lives to demean others. Did any one else notice the right's assault on lifestyle choices? How about the refusal to aknowledge science? Don't have a job..... after we ushered in NAFTA, CAFTA... you are a lazy taker. No the right want's a return to Mayberry where white two parent households pray over dinner. Print a few more Norman Rockweller paintings while all the girls are virgins till married. Let us bow our heads. What the right should be doing is telling the silent majority that they are the vocal minority. STOP BEING EXCLUSIVE! There are other ways to live. I know this is hard to understand when everyone in your gated community agrees with you but you are irrelivent. If you want to be a major player start including others that agree with you on fisical issues and leave the personal choices to the person making them. You are not the morality police. Stop demeaning others and expand your world view. A good place to start would be the LIbraterians. Fisically conservative and socially liberal. It is time to look in the mirror and become inclusive. Your trickle down world view might sell to Hispanics looking for work if you wern't trying to send them home... putting pot smokers in jail? come on man that ship has sailed. Your base left the cities in the 70's because of "them" and can't figure out why "they" are not voting the way they should. You got two years to figure it out. so here is a clue. Let people live their lives and try to help them to better themselves without telling them all the ways they are doing it wrong. Love thy neighbor as thy love thyself. If not you are just thumping it not living it!

November 27, 2012 at 4:56 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

No little ricky....when screw ups occur on dem watch, no one will own up to it. especially at election time. take off the rose tinted shades, bunky.

November 27, 2012 at 5:05 p.m.
carlB said...

There are many parts and angles involved when making the middle class tax cuts help recreate jobs. But as long as the US Consumers continue to buy imported goods hat should be manufactrued in the USA, the tax cuts wiil not help create jobs here.

First we have to recreate more of our lost middle class workers' jobs in the USA. Then with the middle class tax cuts, the money has to be spent on "Made in the USA" goods for creating jobs in the USA. If the US consumers continue to create the high trade deficit buying the imported goods of the global corporate monopolies, then the middle class tax cuts will not help recreate the needed private production and manufacturing jobs in the USA.

November 27, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Great cartoon, Clay Bennett. . . Speaking of vampires, I just read about some corporate CEOs who are demanding cuts to what they call “low-priority spending” on our elderly and poor. . . Needless to say, most of them have reaped trillions in war contracts, subsidies and bailouts. . . I guess vampires do not feel shame:

“WASHINGTON -- The corporate CEOs who have made a high-profile foray into deficit negotiations have themselves been substantially responsible for the size of the deficit they now want closed. The companies represented by executives working with the Campaign To Fix The Debt have received trillions in federal war contracts, subsidies and bailouts, as well as specialized tax breaks and loopholes that virtually eliminate the companies' tax bills.

The CEOs are part of a campaign run by the Peter Peterson-backed Center for a Responsible Federal Budget, which plans to spend at least $30 million pushing for a deficit reduction deal in the lame-duck session and beyond.

During the past few days, CEOs belonging to what the campaign calls its CEO Fiscal Leadership Council -- most visibly, Goldman Sachs' Lloyd Blankfein and Honeywell's David Cote -- have barnstormed the media, making the case that the only way to cut the deficit is to severely scale back social safety-net programs -- Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security -- which would disproportionately impact the poor and the elderly.

As part of their push, they are advocating a "territorial tax system" that would exempt their companies' foreign profits from taxation, netting them about $134 billion in tax savings, according to a new report from the Institute for Policy Studies titled "The CEO Campaign to ‘Fix’ the Debt: A Trojan Horse for Massive Corporate Tax Breaks" -- money that could help pay off the federal budget deficit.

Yet the CEOs are not offering to forgo federal money or pay a higher tax rate, on their personal income or corporate profits. Instead, council recommendations include cutting "entitlement" programs, as well as what they call "low-priority spending."

Many of the companies recommending austerity would be out of business without the heavy federal support they get, including Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase, which both received billions in direct bailout cash, plus billions more indirectly through AIG and other companies taxpayers rescued.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/25/deficit-reduction-council-fiscal-cliff_n_2185585.html#slide=more246059

November 27, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
jjwhi1 said...

Why does the TFP give this guy this space? His artistic skill doesn't promote healthy political commentary. He is a one-sided political hack. What a waste of space.

November 27, 2012 at 5:13 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

jjwhi1: He must have an incredible agent.

November 27, 2012 at 5:30 p.m.
carlB said...

harp3339 said...

"When the goods that were once made in the USA by American workers, were also bought by the US consumers and also exported to other countries, there was a better balance in our trade deficit. The Changes that have occurred as the increase in global corporations reached their peak, are now having their "name brand" goods manufactured in the lower monetary value countries and selling/shipping these goods "world wide" directly from these countries/nations where they are manufactured and even sold to the consumers within the countries where they are manufactured.
How can the USA recreate the private sector jobs that have been lost under these circumstances unless the US consumers change their buying patterns?
We have to "Go Forward" on a constant rate over a long period of time with the re-creation of middle class private sector jobs here while reducing our trade deficit. There are many players that have been created within the global economy (Free Trade agreements) but unfair because they were designed to create the trade deficits with the global corporate monopolies, taking away the choices of the US consumers to buy "Made in the USA."

November 27, 2012 at 5:40 p.m.
fairmon said...

carlB said...

the money has to be spent on "Made in the USA" goods for creating jobs in the USA. If the US consumers continue to create the high trade deficit buying the imported goods of the global corporate monopolies, then the middle class tax cuts will not help recreate the needed private production and manufacturing jobs in the USA.

I again agree but the burning question is how do you get people to buy "made in America"? How are the American manufacturing companies going to be enabled to compete with imports? The current tax cuts and social security reduced taxes are not creating as many American jobs and workers as they are Chinese and other importing countries workers.

November 27, 2012 at 5:46 p.m.
carlB said...

jjwhi1 said... Why does the TFP give this guy this space? His artistic skill doesn't promote healthy political commentary. He is a one-sided political hack. What a waste of space.

==========REPLY: jjwhi1, I assume you are referring to Clay Bennett? Why do you not interpret his political cartoons in a way which pleases you?

November 27, 2012 at 5:48 p.m.
MickeyRat said...

tu_quoque criticizes one and all in the best fashion of her name.

I would say that Limric’s post (s) exactly fit your criteria of: “researching and compiling.” Of which I might add, you are guilty of yourself --- IN SPADES! Ethics? - a trait you are sore lacking. Considering that 99.99% of your senseless diatribes are nothing more than cutting and pasting snippets, I say “BEHOLD, for it is, in all its…splendor, Pbffft - ‘The pot calling the kettle black.” You don’t like any facts (or anything for that matter) unless you can cut and paste them yourself. ‘You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.’ Refute the facts or STFU!

Your self-importance (self-loathing) is plain to see, but your grandeur is quite delusional. Your writing is from the slush pile and the very essence of your moniker.

November 27, 2012 at 6:17 p.m.
MickeyRat said...

tu_quoque criticizes one and all in the best fashion of her name.

I would say that Limric’s post (s) exactly fit your criteria of: “researching and compiling.” Of which I might add, you are guilty of yourself --- IN SPADES! Ethics? - a trait you are sore lacking. Considering that 99.99% of your senseless diatribes are nothing more than cutting and pasting snippets, I say “BEHOLD, for it is, in all its…splendor, Pbffft - ‘The pot calling the kettle black.” You don’t like any facts (or anything for that matter) unless you can cut and paste them yourself. ‘You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.’ Refute the facts or STFU!

Your self-importance (self-loathing) is plain to see, but your grandeur is quite delusional. Your writing is from the slush pile and the very essence of your moniker.

November 27, 2012 at 6:17 p.m.
News_Junkie said...

It will be interesting to see if Clay draws a cartoon relating to the DREAM Act - lite proposed legislation prepared by Republican Senators Kyl and Hutchinson. That move undoubtedly represents some self-reflection among Republicans about the dismal percentage of Hispanics who voted for Romney.

If you'd like to read about the bill, go to: http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/republican-senators-introduce-alternative-dream-act-bill/story?id=17820394#.ULVNUeTEZJE

November 27, 2012 at 6:34 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tu_quoque recycles and rants at Limric: "I'll just . . . recycle my response. . . How many did the administration lie about the details of the attack to protect their own self interests at the polls? How many did the administration lie to the families to their faces as to why the victims died and what was being done in response? How many did the administration’s inaction embolden terrorists to slaughter additional American citizens at will?"

Trying to avoid posting facts again, Tu_quoque? . . . As I've already pointed out to you, before any possible comparison can be made you need to provide the facts that back up your accusations. . . To date, I note that you still haven’t provided any facts that back up your accusations. . . Why is this, Tu_quoque? . . . Could it be that your criticism of Secretary Rice is as former Republican presidential candidate Jon Huntsman suggests - politically motivated or misplaced?

“WASHINGTON -- Former Republican presidential candidate Jon Huntsman on Monday urged lawmakers, including those in his own party, to temper their criticism of the administration's handling of the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya.

Huntsman, who served as U.S. ambassador to China under President Barack Obama, said that it would have been nearly impossible for authorities to instantly obtain accurate intelligence about who was responsible for the September attack, which resulted in the death of four officials. Because of that, he said, recent criticism of U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice for not immediately declaring the attack an act of terror was either politically motivated or misplaced...

For Huntsman, the debate over who massaged what talking points and when is a distraction. While not downplaying the deaths in Benghazi, he noted that there have been other foreign policy developments in the past month that have also demanded attention.

"I heard endless chatter about Benghazi during the last several weeks and not a bit about the leadership changes in China," said Huntsman. "Now I needn't tell you which over the longer term is going to impact us as people. You've got once-per-decade leadership changes in China, whose economic and security policies will have a profound impact on the next generation of Americans."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/jon-huntsman-benghazi-susan-rice_n_2198698.html

November 27, 2012 at 6:38 p.m.
MickeyRat said...

Mountainlaurel,

Truth be known, deep within tu_quoques’ psyche is a raging jealously of you, me, Alprova (especially Alprova), Limric, Blackwater, Rickaroo and others. Hence the endless (boring – tedious, boring – tedious) stream of ‘copying and pasting’ uniformation that only fit her (its) narrative. Puffing herself up and patting herself on the back after a particularly nasty episode of. Well… a ‘tu quoque’.

She is her own Gordian knot.

November 27, 2012 at 7:01 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

MickeyRat: I smell a rat. And its name is easy123 or dude_. How many names you gonna use on here, mope?

November 27, 2012 at 7:08 p.m.
carlB said...

harp3339 said...I again agree but the burning question is how do you get people to buy "made in America"? How are the American manufacturing companies going to be enabled to compete with imports?

======REPLY: The US consumers have choices to make. Either stop or reduce the imported goods that we buy or continue on the trend of buying the imported goods while continuing on the road of the "race to the bottom" without the needed recovery. When the "bottom" is reached, then the US consumers will not have the money to buy anything or have jobs. When this point has been reached, what condition would the 99% of the masses be? Would our governments be weakened or strong? Do you think the world would be in another great depression? There are many players that have been created within the global economy (Free Trade agreements) but unfair because they were designed to create the trade deficits with the global corporate monopolies, taking away the choices of the US consumers to buy "Made in the USA." In my opinion, if our trade policies along with the greed causing the fraud occurring, are forcing the trend to put this Republic into another great depression then we had better do whatever it takes to prevent it.

November 27, 2012 at 7:10 p.m.
miraweb said...

I don't think either Rice or Obama were expecting much from Senators Waldorf and Statler on the hill today.

My money would be that the administration will move with a recess appointment and then take up the filibuster rule with some passion in the new session. Today's meeting sets them up well with public opinion when the Senators start huffing and puffing after the nomination.

John Huntman has a very good perspective on this. He understands the risks that Ambassadors face more than most and he is right that this exercise is a Washington side-show.

As long as the media will keep covering them, the clowns will continue to ride their unicycles.

November 27, 2012 at 7:10 p.m.
alprova said...

Tu_quoque wrote: "AlBaby there is only one reason that you would have posted …. “the company that pays the dividend gets to write of that entire amount as an expense.” That is you were responding to Harp’s claim that … “the company paying the dividend has already paid taxes on profits before paying dividends.” You were in fact denying the company paid taxes on profits before deducting the dividends as expenses."

No dear, I wasn't. I clearly wrote that what is paid out as dividends is a write-off or offset to taxes. At no time did I deny that taxes are not paid on profits before dividends are paid out.

You're struggling real hard to read more into what I wrote than there was, but what else is new? It's your shtick.

November 27, 2012 at 7:15 p.m.
miraweb said...

The most valuable of all talents is that of never using two words when one will do. Thomas Jefferson

November 27, 2012 at 7:20 p.m.
miraweb said...

Anybody can have ideas--the difficulty is to express them without squandering a quire of paper on an idea that ought to be reduced to one glittering paragraph. Mark Twain

November 27, 2012 at 7:23 p.m.
miraweb said...

There's a great power in words - if you don't hitch too many of them together. Josh Billings

November 27, 2012 at 7:26 p.m.
rolando said...

The chances of a conservative of any party being elected to the Office of The President in the near [or distant] future are slim to none.

As Reardon said way up there, "...the electorate has changed."

The majority -- including the infamous "47%" -- have discovered they can vote themselves "Stuff". That will not change back...ever. As I recall, harp said that very thing some months back. Good call, harp.

The Founders had it right when they gave the franchise only to "property-holders" or those with a vested interest in the well-being and continuing prosperity of the nation...instead of voting it all away for "Free Stuff" that is never free.

TANSTAAFL.

November 27, 2012 at 7:58 p.m.
alprova said...

"You may want to do a little research on that...corportate prfits are taxed before a dividend is declared or paid."

Yes Sir, I am completely aware of that fact.

"Some have actually paid a dividend in quarters where there were no profits."

In which case they would not owe taxes on any profits.

"Dividends are not a "cost of doing business" or a write off for the company."

Any money disbursed from any business bank account, for any reason, is deductible -- even expected disbursements paid out in dividends.

"REITS and MLP's are obligated to distribute 90% of their profits to share holders which is a totally different propostion than a standard dividend paying stock."

Master Limited Partnerships and Real Estate Investment Trusts are not assessed income taxes, and their shares trade on the major stock exchanges just like regular stocks. A REIT is entitled to deduct dividends paid out.

An MLP is not assessed income taxes either. The income generated is distributed among all partners in direct proportion to their ownership interest.

"It appears you may invest in CD's and pay tax on the small amount of interest or do you just put cash in a safe and let inflation eat away at it."

Actually, I sold all of my investments a year ago and put every cent into my business, which is now generating an obscene amount of profit for me at the moment. Why would I settle for struggling to realize meager earnings, even tax free, when I am at least doubling my investment every time I make a sale and am also earning 18% per year on what I have on the books in financing?

Screw the markets. I'm pleased as punch to pay increased taxes on my earnings as they increase.

"Dividends should not be taxed period."

Income is income, no matter where it is derived. We're simply going to have to disagree on that.

November 27, 2012 at 8:05 p.m.
miraweb said...

Lindsey Graham will keep blowing his tin horn for as long as he can get 10 seconds on the evening news. It doesn't matter if the President nominates Rice or Donald Duck.

Senator Graham can please himself with all the press conferences and puppy dog eyes he wants. The Republic will manage somehow.

November 27, 2012 at 8:52 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Jack_adaisical: adv. lacking depth, glib-without-fluency, taking banality to an art form.

November 27, 2012 at 8:55 p.m.
ricardo said...

Jon_Ross = Jack_Dennis

November 27, 2012 at 9:25 p.m.
hambone said...

Is there anyone that still believes that cutting taxes on the "job creaters" will produce jobs?

I watched two small business owners tonight say that they would be glad to pay more in taxes if it would mean that the middle class would have $2000 to $3000 more in disposable income.

Demand is what is needed. How does a business owner create demand with his tax cut? Hire customers?

The House of Representives has been setting on a jobs bill for about 2 years now that has already passed the Senate. Roads and bridges. Granted the US will have to borrow the money for this bill but interest is almost nothing right now. Such action has always been a proven way to fuel the economy.

November 27, 2012 at 9:26 p.m.
ricardo said...

Demand drives business economics. A wealthy person does not go out hire a bunch of people just because he has a wad of cash burning a hole in his pocket. He hires more workers because he cannot produce enough with the workers he already has because of the high demand for his product or service. High demand is driven by a healthy consumer class with lots of discretionary income.

November 27, 2012 at 10:45 p.m.
fairmon said...

To achieve reduced spending the tax rates will not only have to expire but all rates increased with the top rates having the larger increase. Set rates that create enough revenue to equal spending. Only then will people realize what they are demanding of a broke government. The clamoring for fiscal responsibility and reduced rates would be louder than all the bleeding heart one for all and all for one rhetoric now. The day of reckoning must come and if not now when? There will be pain and the pain will increase exponentially if delayed.

It is irresponsible if not criminal to allow a future unfunded medicare liability or 46 trillion, give or take 10 trillion, and growing liability to continue. It is irresponsible to continue the social security tax reduction which shortens the time for social security to become insolvent. It is irresponsible to borrow money in order to send it to other countries (foreign aid) in an attempt to influence them to act as we think they should. It is irresponsible to borrow money to police the world and continue participating in wars on behalf of people that hate us for being involved in their region of the world.

It is totally irresponsible to continue being dependent on imported oil and other imported products while failing to provide the jobs and other benefits to be derived from an effective energy independence initiative and business tax simplifications. Obama, if as smart as some think, could be a third term candidate but not my juking around a broken tax system pretending it is good for the country or anyone in the long term.

November 27, 2012 at 11:02 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

Actually, I sold all of my investments a year ago and put every cent into my business, which is now generating an obscene amount of profit for me at the moment. Why would I settle for struggling to realize meager earnings, even tax free, when I am at least doubling my investment every time I make a sale and am also earning 18% per year on what I have on the books in financing?

Screw the markets. I'm pleased as punch to pay increased taxes on my earnings as they increase.

I assume you are one of those screwing the people with lower incomes or maybe your prices are such they can't afford the product? Do you give the lower income folks a discount? I hope it grows to the point you have to hire hundreds of people to handle the business. It really sounds like you are in the medical products field and probably benefitting from some government program.

November 27, 2012 at 11:15 p.m.

Yes, let's make everybody pay off all future expenses in advance!

That means when you buy a house, not only no mortgage, but you must pay off all projected expenses!

Now that would be taxing everybody to death.

But hey, JonRoss, that businessman, how is he going to do if the governmemt stops performing services like fire, police, safety inspection, IP rights, contract enforcement and more? Oh wait, you complain that you aren't suggesting that. Well, guess what? Nobody is suggesting your favorite strawman of taxing anybody to death.

But keep thinking your fear mongering hyperbole will work.

November 27, 2012 at 11:19 p.m.
hambone said...

So J R the way you see it. If a employer has business with 10 employees making Muckets and Widgets. and he is selling 3,000 units a month and he could hire 10 more employees and sell 6,000 units a month. But he refuses to do it because he would just have to pay more in taxes.

I just won't try to argue with thinking like that.

BTW aren't you the one that went bankrupt?

November 27, 2012 at 11:23 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Alpo ought to be in the natural gas bidness. He can produce his own commodity.

November 27, 2012 at 11:36 p.m.
fairmon said...

hambone said... Is there anyone that still believes that cutting taxes on the "job creaters" will produce jobs?

I watched two small business owners tonight say that they would be glad to pay more in taxes if it would mean that the middle class would have $2000 to $3000 more in disposable income.

hambone...I am slow. How does a couple of small business owners or all small business owners paying more taxes enable each of the middle class population to have $2-3,000 more spendable dollars? Would the middle class spend that wind fall on American made products or would importing countries benefit more than U.S. businesses?

November 27, 2012 at 11:45 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

"REMEMBER BENGHAZI ! --JonRoss"

WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?!?!?

November 27, 2012 at 11:51 p.m.
fairmon said...

happywithnewbulbs said... Yes, let's make everybody pay off all future expenses in advance!

That means when you buy a house, not only no mortgage, but you must pay off all projected expenses!

happy, Why not just generate enough income to pay your bills each month and quit putting more and more on your credit card? Maybe even make a token payment on what you already owe to reduce the interest you are paying. Quit trying to impress your neighbors or keep up with the Jones. Are you trying to impress the other country club members? Are you hoping no one finds out how bad off you are financially so you can be popular and run for office? They will love you as long as you keep paying for their burgers and beer but a few want steak and champagne. Better print more money.

It is a difficult adjustment from being the worlds largest lender to being the world's largest debtor. It is like going for a walk and walking much further than you realized, the walk back is grueling, even painful or life threatening if far enough. We may be hallucinating and telling ourselves we are on the way back, not realizing we are still going the other way. Or, maybe the fellow we are following has convinced us if we just keep going we will get back to where we want and need to be and we want to believe it.

November 28, 2012 at 12:09 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

Any money disbursed from any business bank account, for any reason, is deductible -- even expected disbursements paid out in dividends.

You are an accountant, right? The company has a $1 left after taxes, called profit. A decision is needed as to what to do with that $1 of profit. We will give 1/2 (some more some less than 1/2)of it to our investors as a dividend and appreciation for investing their money in our business and retain the other 1/2 in case needed for business purposes. Microsoft has retained enough to have over 40 billion in cash. Are you saying the dividend once paid is the same as employee compensation and is a cost of doing business therefore reduces profits? I think the IRS says they can't do that which is why the dividend is paid after taxes. Do you spend any business profits on anything that is not deductible or that is not a cost of doing business expense?

November 28, 2012 at 12:43 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp339 wrote: "You are an accountant, right? The company has a $1 left after taxes, called profit. A decision is needed as to what to do with that $1 of profit. We will give 1/2 (some more some less than 1/2)of it to our investors as a dividend and appreciation for investing their money in our business and retain the other 1/2 in case needed for business purposes. Microsoft has retained enough to have over 40 billion in cash. Are you saying the dividend once paid is the same as employee compensation and is a cost of doing business therefore reduces profits?"

No. I am saying that the calculation of the taxes owed by a pubic company is made on profits INCLUDING dividends that are slated to be paid out, then the dividend payments are claimed as an expense post-tax calculation, as opposed to calculating taxes on what is left AFTER dividends are paid out.

In other words, if a company pays out 50% of the profits it generates in a quarter in dividends, it is not allowed to pay out the dividends and pay taxes on the 50% remaining. It must pay taxes on the full 100% of profits, but then is allowed to claim an expense deduction for the 50% paid out, after taxes.

"I think the IRS says they can't do that which is why the dividend is paid after taxes."

Think of it as an after-tax expense that is allowed to be claimed against future taxes.

My challenge was not that some dividends are not taxed prior to distribution, but once they are paid to the investor, they are written off by the company as an expense. Despite being taxed once, dividends represent new income to the investor and in my opinion, deserves to be taxed as such, because the amount paid out to the investor is expensed by the company.

You might have a good argument that dividends that are taxed prior to distribution should be taxed at a lower rate once received by the investor. But tax-free? Nope.

"Do you spend any business profits on anything that is not deductible or that is not a cost of doing business expense?"

Quite frankly, no. If I spend a penny from my business accounts, it's deductible, but then I am careful not to ever muddy the waters when it comes to business and personal expenses.

Money in is contrasted against money out. When I transfer funds from my business bank account to my personal bank account, I deduct the funds as a payroll expense from my business, but claim it as income on my personal tax return.

The difference between the two scenarios, is that I only pay taxes on those funds once on my personal income tax return, but am allowed to deduct the entire amounts paid to myself before profit calculations are made to assess what I owe on my business taxes.

November 28, 2012 at 1:57 a.m.
fairmon said...

The published corporate tax rate is 35% plus a dividend rate of 15% amounts to 50% on that money and alprova wants it to be 70% for those in the highest bracket. Yep, move over France, here we come.

November 28, 2012 at 4:15 a.m.

harp3339, gee, why indeed do companies and individuals operate with loans and so forth, and not just work on a cash-carry basis!

Why not indeed!

Your problem is you think it's about impressing the neighbors. What if it's about keeping warm over the winter, what if it's about getting other necessities and not about image?

It's a difficult idea for you to understand, but sometimes you can't just wave away expenses as frivolous.

That said, we certainly could correct the outflow of public monies...if not for a group that has continually and fervently insisted on doing what? Oh yeah, cutting taxes.

To starve the beast. All because they think it'll somehow work out better.

So you know who you need to talk to? Grover Norquist and his ilk. Stop listening to him as he pipes his merry toon.

November 28, 2012 at 7:35 a.m.
dao1980 said...

JR said: "rabble rabble"

November 28, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.

Any potential investor who turns down say 85,000 dollars because they wanted 90,000 is a bad one.

Or any other number of possibilities. See you're still making more than you had before.

What's the point of sitting on your hands? Isn't that what people complain about the poor doing?

November 28, 2012 at 12:39 p.m.
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