published Monday, September 10th, 2012

Warning from the Arctic

Gwynne Dyer, who provides astute commentary on a wide variety of subjects for publications around the globe, wrote about the rapid melting of Arctic sea ice and the significant impact it has had on global climate in a column that appeared on the Chattanooga Times editorial page Sunday. His explanation of the changes already underway as a result of the melt was instructive and eye-opening -- a call to action for a world where many people still ignore the consequences of global warming.

Dyer focused on the facts and figures of the ice melt and the rising temperatures that cause it. He noted the relationship between the melting ice, concomitant warmer Arctic temperatures and climatological changes that are responsible for extreme weather around the world. Those who doubt the connection ignore the increased incidence of longer and extreme heat waves, droughts, floods, cold spells, storms and rains and the toll they take on global food production.

Dyer's view is, at best, a gloomy, if thought-proving one. Given the facts, it could have been worse. Dyer noted that Arctic sea ice cover is smaller now than at any time since satellite mapping began over three decades ago, but his necessarily short overview did not note other pertinent information. The entire Arctic region, for example, is now warming more quickly than almost any other locale on Earth. He certainly agrees, though, that the overall trends have ominous consequences for global climate.

The rapid melt feeds a vicious cycle that perpetuates and accelerates the decline in ice cover. As ice melts more quickly, it allows more heat absorption by open water. That in turn leads to more warming. The melting ice is not the only indication of a warmer Arctic.

Scientists report that recent annual average increases in temperatures there have been twice as high as those reported in the rest of the world. Indeed, studies of ice cores, tree rings and lake sediments indicates ice temperatures have been higher in the last 30 years than at any time in the last two millennia. There's no escaping the fact -- it's no longer a theory -- that warmer Arctic temperatures already are prompting changes in sea levels, available supplies of fresh water, crop production and the health and safety of millions of individuals.

At the current rate, it seems likely that summer ice in the Arctic will became a rarity soon if global warming is not reversed. When that occurs, it surely will spur competition, and perhaps worse, between nations pursuing military superiority in the region and control of the vast mineral and oil resources under the exposed seabed. The globe has enough flashpoints. There's no need to create another.

The facts documented by scientists in the Arctic and around the globe and the continued reportage by Dyer and many other journalists should spur governments to slow global warming and to limit, if they can, its affects. The United States should take the lead, but unwarranted political skepticism about the reality of global warming, and congressional partisanship have made that difficult. The president and Mitt Romney, his challenger, don't agree on much, but global warming poses an imminent danger to all regardless of political affiliation.

They should, individually and jointly, demand an end to the political impasse and to the thinking that increasingly put both present and future residents of Earth at risk.

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EaTn said...

The gullible right-wing media listening and watching folks around here wouldn't believe in global warming, even if the red clay under their feet turned to sand. Don't confuse the issues with the facts.

September 10, 2012 at 6:14 a.m.
conservative said...

EaTn, Just one question, how long can you tread water?

September 10, 2012 at 8:11 a.m.
conservative said...

Why don't these gloom and doomers specifically state that they (I of course don't include myself) are the ones causing global warming? And why don't they specifically state just how they (not myself) are causing global warming?

If they did it would reveal themselves as hypocrites for they use and benefit from coal and natural gas produced electricity just like intelligent people. And they use or benefit from gasoline powered vehicles and machinery just like intelligent people.

September 10, 2012 at 9:25 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

It is not you or I or any individual, conservative. It is the almost 9 billion of us, especially those in the developed world, that are shifting carbon from long lived reservoirs to the atmosphere and oceans. But of course, you don't believe that fossil fuels formed over hundreds of millions of years anyway.

September 10, 2012 at 10:12 a.m.
conservative said...

Well ike you made my made my point. Thank you!

"But of course, you don't believe that fossil fuels formed over hundreds of millions of years anyway"

You can't make up something better than that?

September 10, 2012 at 10:58 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

98% of all climate scientists world-wide, who have been studying global warming for years and even decades, no longer question whether it is happening and whether it is primarily human caused. They are agreed that it IS happening, that we are the primary cause of it, and it is happening at an even faster pace than they had earlier predicted.

Yet most flat-earth conservatives choose to call them liars or idiots and place their belief instead in some petition signed several years ago by people most of whom were not even scientists. It was determined that the vast majority of the signers of that petition were basically anyone who had access to it. All in all, fewer than 1% of those signers were actually climate scientists and the vast majority were not even scientists at all. Those signers and the obvious shills and pseudo-scientists that big business are paying off to spread their lies on their behalf are the ones the conservatives are choosing to believe. The same scenario has been unfolding that took place several years ago when the tobacco companies paid off their "scientists" to spread the lies and propaganda that there was no link between cancer and smoking.

It is probably too late to make even a dent in the damage that has already been done and that is accelerating at an alarming rate. History will probably show that we created our own doom because there were so many stubborn, ideologically driven baboons among us who were incapable of seeing and accepting the obvious truth, who turned what should have been a purely scientific matter into a political one.

There is more than ample scientific evidence to make even the most stubborn ideologue pause and wonder, at least, if there is some truth to what the climate scientists are saying. But they not only do not even question it, they declare emphatically that it is NOT happening, period.

It's funny how they profess to worry so much about their kids and grand kids having to pay off so much debt in the future but they're not worried in the least that they most likely won't have a decent planet to live on, let alone an economy of any kind to worry about.

September 10, 2012 at 12:58 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

*Well ike you made my made my point. Thank you!

"But of course, you don't believe that fossil fuels formed over hundreds of millions of years anyway"

You can't make up something better than that?*

So you do believe that the fossil fuels did form over millions of years?

September 10, 2012 at 1:02 p.m.
conservative said...

"But of course, you don't believe that fossil fuels formed over hundreds of millions of years anyway"

I have never made any statement in regards to your false accusation. Now I want you to consider some things so that you might not rush to engage me in such silliness again. I don't like to engage in childish games.

Your arrogance in proclaiming to know the years is just silly arrogance and speculation with no meaning or relevance for everyday living. No one knows the number of years as you yourself have written.

You wrote the first time "hundreds of millions of years" at 10:12 and now at 1:02 "millions of years." So according to your own foolish reasoning the number of years could be 2 million to 999 million years.

Is this great difference in years science?

You remind me of that old Statler brothers song : Countin' flowers on the wall That don't bother me at all Playin' solitaire till dawn with a deck of fifty-one Smokin' cigarettes and watchin' Captain Kangaroo Now don't tell me I've nothin' to do

September 10, 2012 at 1:43 p.m.
dao1980 said...

I think conny is saying that he doesn't believe what those who devote their lives to the study of radiocarbon dating have (collectively) to share with us.

It's always funny to hear those who have invested NO personal time or energy in the study of any specific science, refute and argue against the (collective) findings of those who have. (usually with religion as their motivation)

But then here conny is also flandering around with his words in some imagined smoke screen of retreat. "did you say this or did you say that, a-ha! got you!"

It's ok conny, you shouldn't be so dern frightened at science's ability to observe and measure the world in which we exist.

I would advise that if you are honestly and truly interested in the age of our planet.... STUDY THE SCIENCES THAT ALLOW US TO MEASURE IT!!!!.... you dern blind foolish pompous idiot.

September 10, 2012 at 2:14 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Actually, it can be anywhere from 2 to 999 million, depending on the conditions, now that I think about it. Your point?

September 10, 2012 at 2:18 p.m.
conservative said...

So pointing out YOUR "science" can vary 997 million years and you ask what is your point?

Thanks for the laughs!!!

September 10, 2012 at 2:51 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your ignorance is showing. Should I bother with a lesson or no?

September 10, 2012 at 3:02 p.m.
conservative said...

You already have been very instructive. Now tell me how YOU are causing global warming and why you continue in YOUR destructive behavior.

September 10, 2012 at 3:10 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

No, conservative, I am talking about the formation of fossil fuels, which can take as little as a few hundred thousand years to hundreds of millions. You clearly have no idea.

September 10, 2012 at 3:22 p.m.
conservative said...

Stop the diversions. Tell me how YOU are causing global warming and why you continue in YOUR destructive behavior.

September 10, 2012 at 3:44 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

It is not you or I or any individual, conservative. It is the almost 9 billion of us, especially those in the developed world, that are shifting carbon from long lived reservoirs to the atmosphere and oceans.

If you can't understand this post there is no hope for you. Sorry.

September 10, 2012 at 4:46 p.m.
conservative said...

"You already have been very instructive. Now tell me how YOU are causing global warming and why you continue in YOUR destructive behavior."

If you can't understand this post Ike, there is no hope for you. Sorry.

September 10, 2012 at 5:09 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

In other words, you have no intention of engaging in intelligent dialog. Color me surprised.

You originally posted:

Why don't these gloom and doomers specifically state that they (I of course don't include myself) are the ones causing global warming? And why don't they specifically state just how they (not myself) are causing global warming?

You can't as an individual do squat about this issue. It is up to governments and corporations to deal with. And they are, apparently, even though idiots like you fail to understand the issue.

September 10, 2012 at 7:47 p.m.
Easy123 said...

"Exploring three approaches in which the estimated probability of extinction shows a power- law relationship with geographical range size, we predict, on the basis of mid-range climate-warming scenarios for 2050, that 15–37% of species in our sample of regions and taxa will be ‘committed to extinction’."

http://www.rivm.nl/bibliotheek/digitaaldepot/20040108nature.pdf

I fear for the future generations. Humans may be the cause of our own demise if we continue to embrace ignorance and religion instead of science, facts, and truth.

September 10, 2012 at 8:26 p.m.
conservative said...

Ike...

YOU accused the world of causing global warming. YOU refuse to disclose how YOU are causing global warming and why YOU continue your destructive behavior.

YOU keep trying diversions in order to avoid giving reasons for YOUR eco crimes.

Again, tell me how YOU are causing global warming and why YOU continue in YOUR destructive behavior.

Furthermore, do you think YOU can indict the world of eco crimes without specifying the crimes and why do YOU continue YOUR destructive behavior?

The arrogance of YOU atheists seems to know no limits.

September 10, 2012 at 8:28 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

What in the world does atheism have to do with global warming????

I did not accuse the world of anything. Climate change is the natural consequence of human over-population, something that is no individual's "fault". Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

September 10, 2012 at 8:37 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Conservative,

"Again, tell me how YOU are causing global warming"

Using gasoline in any way (cars, lawnmowers, etc.), excessive electricity use, wasting water, and the list goes on really.

"why YOU continue in YOUR destructive behavior."

Some people take steps to avoid such things.

Here is a list:

http://www.wikihow.com/Reduce-Your-Greenhouse-Gas-Emissions

"do you think YOU can indict the world of eco crimes without specifying the crimes and why do YOU continue YOUR destructive behavior?"

Yes, it's very simple to understand how carbon emissions from the burning of fossil fuels is bad for the environment.

It is not the individual behavior that is destructive. It is the collective behavior of so many people. Factories, power plants, etc. shoulder most of the blame.

"The arrogance of YOU atheists seems to know no limits."

The arrogance of YOU christians seems to know no limits. Not only do you deny SCIENTIFIC facts, you claim to know things that you cannot know.

The ultimate arrogance is claiming to know a deity personally. You also claim to know the origins of the universe. All while rejecting SCIENTIFIC FACTS.

If you wish to speak on arrogance, you should consider taking a long, hard look in the mirror. You won't ever truly understand because you are patently ignorant and brainwashed to the extreme but it's always worth a try. Heck, maybe you could ask Jesus to pull your head out of your ass for you. You'll surely need a miracle worker to perform that feat.

September 10, 2012 at 8:42 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

....................Jesus Is The God of Balance....................

Please understand that our sun is approximately 93 million miles from the earth. The nearest, nearest...nearest sun(s) to our planet's sun is/are approx. 24 to 25 Trillion miles away. So, starting from our sun, riding on a fast machine that can move at 186,000 MPS (miles per second), well then, it would take over 4 years to get there. So, every second You travel 186,000 miles, and, still yet it takes over 4 years to get there! To get across the whole Milky Way would take One-Hundred Thousand Years traveling 186,000 miles per second. On a jet plane, if it was possible, it would take about 100 Billion years to travel the diameter of our galaxy.

Why did I provide the above information? Well, Global Warming is a Joke! The Same Jesus Christ Who Created planet earth, and, has been earth's caretaker for ages, has not gone out of business. I think He provided enough room for a little heat to escape from this earth. For those who don't believe The Lord God of Hosts will keep the earth going until all His Prophetic Events are fulfilled...then, I say either go read/study The Holy Bible, or, go hug a tree, or, save a whale, snail darter, lick a frog, or, take some more valium.

September 10, 2012 at 10:43 p.m.
Easy123 said...

"Global Warming is a Joke! The Same Jesus Christ Who Created planet earth, and, has been earth's caretaker for ages, has not gone out of business. I think He provided enough room for a little heat to escape from this earth. For those who don't believe The Lord God of Hosts will keep the earth going until all His Prophetic Events are fulfilled...then, I say either go read/study The Holy Bible, or, go hug a tree, or, save a whale, snail darter, lick a frog, or, take some more valium."

You live in a fantasy world and you are a dumbass. You deserve to be committed for your ignorance alone.

September 11, 2012 at 2:51 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I see you have no answer, conservative. You seem to have a huge problem with my lack of belief, so much so that you make everything about that even when it is unrelated. It is "Christians" like you and Ken Orr that made my leaving the faith that much easier. (and satisfying)

September 11, 2012 at 6:15 a.m.
dao1980 said...

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Orr, you are truly a self made idiot of "BIBLICAL" proportions, and your understanding of the correlations and causalities involved in the topics on which you attempt to assert your viewpoint's validity is absolutely so far beyond the ridiculous.... well I just don't know how to immediately describe it.

The idea that proximital distance between heavenly bodies would dictate the ability of "heat" to escape any said body, is an utmost hilarity.

I will be forwarding a link to this thread to everyone I know, in order to illustrate the intellectual cancer of lazy dishonest blind faith mixed with non-science.

Science can observe, measure, and predict many things, but measuring the black-hole that you have allowed to develop in your head, would be beyond the combined abilities of every analytically inclined mind on this planet.

September 11, 2012 at 9:09 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Dearest Easy123 and lkeithlu, dao1980, and, others who already know who You are (in this case),

I do genuinely mean 'Dearest'. Regarding global warming, well, the so-called facts, and, debates can go on well past our alloted times on earth. Yet, the ending statement in the following Scripture from Jesus Christ's Holy Bible, well, The Scripture Cannot Be Broken! Now, that indeed is a type of 'Warming' that I have escaped. Yes, I have accepted the Free Gift of 'Hell Insurance'. And, please let me declare to You that 'Fear', Reverential, Prudent Fear is an excellent/approved reason to attain and maintain an innocent faith in The Lord God of Hosts. What do I lose if Jesus Christ was a liar? What do You have to lose if He was and Is who He says He Is? What do You have to lose? All that You have is Your Soul. The small, fringe group of so-called atheists, and, others will probably not even be near You when You are alone, dying in the presence of a Thrice Holy God. So, Global Warming is one thing, but, just please read below about another kind of warming that is much hotter:

Hebrews 6-...

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

September 11, 2012 at 9:12 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Use your own words, Ken Orr. The bible has nothing to offer on this issue. (Actually, the bible has nothing to offer on any scientific issue dating past about 300 AD).

September 11, 2012 at 9:25 a.m.
dao1980 said...

"What do I lose if Jesus Christ was a liar?"

You loose the only thing you will ever have in the short time you exist... your life lived free from fear of "hell" and free of guilt for "original sin".

I ask you this, if your mind has obviously crumbled and suffered failure thus far, halfway into one short blip of existence within a human lifetime, how will you weather the "always"?

How will you hold up, as you believe that you will continue to exist into deep-time for "eternity"?

Just think about it. One little traumatic event when you were a child, and you have caved into yourself and become an abomination of idealistic logic, fearful of reality, succumbing to man's ultimate vanity, and pure selfish desire for immortality.

The universe's greatest punishment, an "eternal hell" if you will, would be for you and your memories to exist forever..

September 11, 2012 at 9:27 a.m.
conservative said...

Ike.....

"What in the world does atheism have to do with global warming?"

More than you realize. As an atheist you have rejected God, creator of heaven and earth and the one who sustains earth. I could cite Scripture, but you heart is so harden at this point that I doubt it would do any good.

Everyone puts their faith in something. You like most atheists put your faith in man, human wisdom, or the like. Your fear of the destruction of the earth by man made global warming is irrational to a Christian. Christians know who is in control of all creation. You think man is and that is where your arrogance comes in to play.

However, your faith in man controlling the environment seems weak to me in that you have refused to say what you personally are doing to curtail man made global warming. You also refuse to say what you are doing to cause it. If I believed what I think you believe about the causes of man made global warming, I would abandon the use of use of electricity. I would at least adopt the Amish lifestyle.

September 11, 2012 at 9:52 a.m.
conservative said...

Ike....

"Climate change is the natural consequence of human over-population,"

How so? And why not state your solution?

September 11, 2012 at 10:07 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

There is no easy solution, conservative. Population control and gradual shift to renewable sources of energy will help. But of course, so would the rapture. At least we wouldn't have your inane babble on this site.

September 11, 2012 at 10:38 a.m.
conservative said...

"Population control"

Translation- people have to die and it is not going to be us environmentalist.

September 11, 2012 at 11:03 a.m.
conservative said...

Ike, you still will not say what you are doing or have done to cause global warming and what destructive behavior you have changed.

September 11, 2012 at 11:07 a.m.
dao1980 said...

The sad thing is that the humans of the future are the ones who will suffer for the "sins" of those like conny who revel in their selfish abandon.

It's ok conny, you'll be gone soon, and hopefully the coming generations will have the technology and will-power to right your blind thoughtless wrongs in order to ensure our continued survival as a species.

September 11, 2012 at 11:08 a.m.
dao1980 said...

Encouraging education is what she's doing conny. That's all any one person can do to contribute to a brighter future. (Besides the obvious thrifty things like collecting water from your gutters for the garden, and car pooling to save money on gas. Oh! and not using spent diesel oil as weed killer like grampa used to do)

For every single blind-faith waste of space that spews nonsense about jesus coming back before we've ruined the place, there are ten educators encouraging children to learn, understand and appreciate the world around them, and their relationship with it.

September 11, 2012 at 11:14 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ike, you still will not say what you are doing or have done to cause global warming and what destructive behavior you have changed.

Everything that I do contributes to global warming, because I am a citizen of the US, which like other developed nations, has the highest per capita use of fossil fuels. I have reduced energy use in ways that I can. How about you? You don't even appear to be interested in educating yourself about how the earth formed, the carbon, rock and water cycles, what climate change entails, how climate and weather relate, etc. You won't get that from the bible, you know.

September 11, 2012 at 11:29 a.m.
conservative said...

" I have reduced energy use in ways that I can"

Baloney!! If you are fooling anyone it is yourself.

September 11, 2012 at 12:01 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

*" I have reduced energy use in ways that I can"

Baloney!! If you are fooling anyone it is yourself.*

And just how do you know what I have done and not done, you arrogant SOB? I owe you no more detail than that, especially since you have shown no interest in being honest, nor have you offered to tell me what you have done.

September 11, 2012 at 12:05 p.m.
conservative said...

"I have reduced energy use in ways that I can. How about you?"

I have always reduced home electrical costs for economic reasons alone. I am not a wasteful person by nature, grew up dirt poor. My frugality has nothing to do with any irrational fear of global warming.

BTW, I am well off now. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

September 11, 2012 at 12:17 p.m.
conservative said...

"I owe you no more detail than that, especially since you have shown no interest in being honest, nor have you offered to tell me what you have done."

Every opinion of mine has been an honest opinion. As a non believer in global warming I would of course not tout what I am doing to stop man made global warming. This would be irrational.

You however, are a professing believer in man made global warming but won't disclose what you are specifically doing and have done to cause it. You have not practiced what you preach.

September 11, 2012 at 12:31 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Blow it out your kazoo, conservative. Your self-righteousness is tiresome.

September 11, 2012 at 1:46 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Has anyone, like, Republicans 'and Democrats taken a jet plane flight lately? How many gallons of jet fuel are used just to build up to cruise level? Rock Stars, Vacationers, probably people on this site...ALL HYPOCRITES WHO ARE TREE HUGGING, FROG LICKING, ANXIETY OVERWHELMED, SAVE THE WHALES/SNAIL DARTERS, SENSATIONALISTS! Get real HYPOCRITES!

"Even Much of the commentary I have read seems blissfully unaware that population growth is actually slowing dramatically and that virtually all demographers expect human population growth to be negative by the end of this century. Most are trucking along with an idea they heard in middle-school, helpfully illustrated by scary looking wall-charts, namely, that human population is expanding exponentially and will keep doubling until certain cataclysm.".....
Brett Salkeld

Also, alarmists, ye of little faith, Our planet can 'easily' support/feed/house 50 Billion people. Get Real! Jesus Christ of Nazareth made it, He knows how to protect and run it. kwo

September 11, 2012 at 5:13 p.m.
Easy123 said...

The ignorance from Ken Orr and conservative is palpable.

The psychosis displayed by both of you has been duly noted.

September 11, 2012 at 7 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Our planet can 'easily' support/feed/house 50 Billion people.

BS

Carrying capacity of earth is estimated to be between 4 and 16 billion. If on the low side, it is already exceeded. If on the high side, we are approaching it. Of course, safe water resources may lower those numbers. 3/4 of the earth's human inhabitants lack access to safe water.

September 11, 2012 at 7:05 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Well, lkeithlu, it boils down to Your websites/researchers vs My websites/researchers. Let me just put it this way: Even the very small state of New Jersey can hold all of earth's approximately 7 billion population! Every man, woman, girl & boy would have enough space around them to hold 100 one Sq. ft. tiles. That's a fairly good sized diameter. Now, how many New Jerseys can fit into the area of Texas? How much area does the U.S. take up in all of North America? How many continents are there on this earth. How much fresh water can be obtained/processed from the oceans of this earth? This is just a 'little' homework for folks. The point being that Jesus Christ is limitless...no limits! He made this earth, and, He certainly knows how to maintain earth until all of His Prophetic Events have occurred. The Holy Bible has sufficient information as to what these events are. kwo

September 12, 2012 at 6:37 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ken Orr- New Jersey cannot provide the food, water and waste processing for 7 billion. Not all of the earth's surface can grow food, provide clean water, and process the physical waste of that many people. Geeeezzzz-get you head out of that bible and learn a little science, man!

September 12, 2012 at 8:12 p.m.
Easy123 said...

It's insanity, ikeithlu. It truly is. Conversing with Orr and Conservative is like talking to a child. A very illogical, ignorant, brainwashed child that will adamantly argue in favor of his own ignorance.

It's voluntary psychosis.

September 12, 2012 at 9:50 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

It truly is insanity, easy. I have never seen such nonsense, not even from children. No sense of what resources are necessary to provide for a single human, much less the notion of sharing those resources with millions of other creatures. Unbelievable. Obtaining fresh water from oceans? No sense of the immense amount of energy required? Packing people at 1 per 100 ft2? It's like a bad dream. I declare Poe. No one is really that stupid.

September 12, 2012 at 10:06 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

No, no, no! You both missed it. Expand from New Jersey to Texas to the United States to North America to the entirety of planet earth. The 20ll census population of New York City = 8,244,910. How many of the folks there are being fed? How much land area do they occupy? Even New Jerusalem of The Book of Revelation could hold the population of all of mankind since the beginning of time. Each family (3-4 folks) could live on an acre of land there. Please do not try to limit Your Creator, Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

Revelation 21:1

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. ..."

September 12, 2012 at 11:34 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

You're an idiot. There is no other way to put it.

September 12, 2012 at 11:38 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Orr, where do the people in NY get their food? Water? Energy? All from the acreage of the city? Can you not see the silliness of your claim? Do you know that to produce 1 kg of beef you need 15,000 liters of water?

September 13, 2012 at 4:22 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Easy123, Being the Youngster that You are...I'm going to speak in Your language again...only so that You can clearly understand.

"Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!" "Easy123, I am rubber, You are glue, everything You say, bounces off me and sticks on You!" Now! Just take that! "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!" And, also, "My Mommy can beat up Your Mommy!" Now, I'll just blow You a raspberry! There Easy123, and, "You're just a Meanie!". [I understand that You can't help Your age Easy, so, this is just for fun, no insult intended]. I do though want You to get the idea of how You come across with Your incessant name calling. kwo

http://youtu.be/fTpVP7v6XA4

September 13, 2012 at 7:25 a.m.
dao1980 said...

Wow, I can't believe those around orr, and those who he represents haven't confiscated his computer by now.

He's been useful to me in that respect at least.

His inability to even connect two dots, or conceive of the simplest equations regarding evident causality are an excellent example of how an emotional agenda can fog up even the most basic concepts.

"Two plus two doesn't equal four! The bible says so!!!"

I've been forwarding links for these threads to friends and family who, after reading the crap in "Acts and Facts" have been tricked into accepting the thin conjectures of non-science screamed desperately by the few, over the findings of real science reported calmly and consistently by the many.

September 13, 2012 at 8:16 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

lkeithlu, I don't think You are digging deeply enough into the research, especially the math regarding the earth's land area. Also check further regarding DESALINATION. The world could have unlimited drinking water through desalination. Also, this water would be used for all consumer product purposes requiring H20. kwo

September 13, 2012 at 8:17 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ken, most fresh water is used for agriculture, not drinking. Desalination takes a tremendous amount of energy-only the oil rich countries in the Middle East use the method, and only when they have to. You surely are not this stupid. Try to imagine the fuel, seed, acreage, labor and especially water it would take for you to grow, harvest, process, preserve and store a year's food for just you. Now multiply that by 7 billion. If you live in a city, those resources come from elsewhere. If you are taking about FL, that state has a long growing season and plentiful water, at least until recently (over population by non-farmers and drought have hit pretty hard) Central California draws its water from the Sierra's, but must compete with the cities for a limited supply. These cities, including cities like Las Vegas, draw water from deep aquifers that is not being replaced at the same rate. The Southwest is closing a 150 year period of higher than normal rainfall and is reverting to a more normal dry period, just as sun seekers move to AZ. NM and SoCal by the millions.

And that is just in the US, which has the resources to handle a municipal water emergency. Farmers and ranchers, well, they are on their own-losing everything, selling off their stock at a loss.

Move that same problem to a developing nation-a reduction in rainfall or a drought, and the food needed to sustain the population does not grow, and millions starve. And no, Somalia cannot build de-salination plants to convert seawater for agriculture.

Now, you can play all day on the computer (so it is obvious you are not growing and storing your own food) Take some time to learn about water. Fresh water is in limited supply, and humans are taking the lion's share and polluting a lot of the rest, not with chemicals or oil necessarily, but with waste. Too many septic systems, not enough waste water treatment plants in the Gulf Coast is impacting the fishing and shellfish industries, a long with too many people trying to fish.

A top predator such as a bear or puma needs hundreds of square miles to provide adequate prey, and a top predator does not build roads, houses, farms or vehicles. Humans use far more resources and there are far more of us.

This is not about LAND AREA, Ken. This is about land that can sustain human populations, particularly western societies that use a lot of water and energy per capita. This is about land that can grow food-the central US wheat and corn, the produce in FL and CA, fish, poultry and other proteins. Vast areas of the earth are not arable-many countries must import much of their food, and can grow a limited variety of things themselves.

September 13, 2012 at 8:57 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

BTW, if you care to learn ANYTHING about the planet and its resources, I can provide a very good list of books and websites to start with. I will not waste my time gathering that list if you are not interested. Your next response will tell me what I need to know.

September 13, 2012 at 9:33 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

INTERESTED! Thank You.

Peace, kwo

September 13, 2012 at 5:46 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Books:

The Earth Transformed, Goudie and Viles

Water, A Natural History, Outwater, A.

The Third Chimpanzee, Diamond, J.

Guns, Germs and Steel, Diamond, J.

Climatology, Oliver and Hildor

1491, Mann

September 13, 2012 at 6:32 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Websites:

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/en/

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthwherewater.html

http://www.unwater.org/worldwaterday/faqs.html

http://www.unesco-ihe.org/

http://www.wateraidamerica.org/what_we_do/statistics.aspx?gclid=CKKTtOrPs7ICFQsGnQodowMAtA

http://www.waterfootprint.org/?page=files/home

There's a start. You will see that water first, energy next and finally arable land will be the limits on human population. Water is such a limited resource now, and rising population, especially in developing nations, puts people at risk for famine and water-borne illness. It's enough of a problem in the US, where safe drinking water can be transported by the National Guard and FEMA in the event of a natural disaster, but drought and declining aquifers are putting farmers and ranchers at risk in large areas of the US, which drives food prices up. We'll weather it without death and anarchy, because we are the richest nation in the world, with a stable government and a strong national defense. Other countries are not so lucky; people die when weather patterns shift and crops fail. Do they deserve less? I don't believe so.

September 13, 2012 at 6:46 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Wow! Even being a voracious reader, i definitely have my work cut out now. I do devour books/articles because i love knowledge. It is power! My genuine gratitude i give to You lkeithlu. i will begin my collection/study of the above references within a few minutes from now. Something is telling me You are a charitable person. "Not bad" kwo

September 14, 2012 at 5:50 p.m.
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