published Saturday, September 22nd, 2012

Apathy driving U.S. off course and other letters to the editors

Apathy driving U.S. off course

Prior to the Central High School football game last week I was embarrassed. When the colors were paraded to the center of the field only a few of us stood and removed our hats.

The public address announcer asked that everyone stand for the playing of our national anthem. Most, but not all, stood. Many, but not all, removed their hats. Placing your hand over your heart was apparently too much trouble for quite a few. The woman in front of me couldn't stop shoving that fried dough into her mouth. A man a few seats away couldn't get his hands out of his pockets. Kids all around failed to stop playing their games and yakking with each other.

Now I understand paying proper respect to our flag and to our anthem doesn't define you as an American, but it is the beginning. Apathy is driving our country in the wrong direction.

Grandparents, apparently it is our role to re-educate our children, and teach our grandkids what it is to be a proud American, what it means to be a responsible citizen. I suspect it is no longer being taught in our school system.

BOB CARNEY, Ooltewah

Citizens should feel free to believe

Imagine if Obama said this, "We in the United States, above all, must remember that lesson, for we were founded as a nation of openness to people of all beliefs. And so we must remain. Our very unity has been strengthened by our pluralism. We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief, nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free, and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief."

President Reagan made these remarks to members of the Congregation of Temple Hillel and Jewish Community Leaders in Valley Stream, New York, on Oct. 26, 1984.


Create jobs, not handouts

Recently, our president stated, "If you have a business, you didn't build it."

When I was 60 years of age, I took early retirement from a large corporation and invested $6,000 in a small contracting business. This month, I will turn 88, still open the office at 7:30 a.m. and usually close it at the end of the day.

We operate five trucks and vans and for the past 28 years, we have provided employment for 10 people without any assistance from any government, local, state or federal.

If I didn't build it, who in heaven's name did?

This, Mr. President, is how jobs are created, not by government handouts.


We are paying high price for war

Your political cartoon (Sept. 18) of the gas can filled with "American Weakness" and a "policy of appeasement" as "fuel for the fire" was a history lesson for two of the great war mongers in the history of our country: Cheney and Rumsfeld.

How proud we are that they were not "appeasers." They neglected our original legitimate fight in Afghanistan against al-Qaida to illegally attack Iraq and cause the appalling loss of over 4,000 young American men and women there and an estimated hundred thousand noncombatant Iraqis.

We're paying the price in Afghanistan now for not having settled the score with al-Qaida immediately, and then pulled out. But at least we can brag that Cheney and Rumsfeld were not appeasers. Bring them back today and they would attack all the Mideast countries at the same time. We certainly wouldn't want to use diplomacy in delicate and difficult situations. We need to rush in, raise our flag, beat our chests, and put these new fires out with more fire. And spend thousands more young American lives doing it.


A reader prays for salvation

To Messrs. Coleman, Jones, Freedom From Religion advocates, et al.:

I fear for you, as we are told in Galatians 6:7, "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap."

Also, in Hebrews 10:31 we are warned that "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

I pray for your salvation.


Amendment under assault

From the 10 original amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America, also called the Bill of Rights, dated Dec. 15,1791.

Amendment 1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...

Now in 2012, a group is working to change the passage to read: Amendment 1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, xx xxxxxxxxxxx xxx xxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx.


Students need other options

I read with interest the recent articles from critics of Tennessee's new online school. As the parent of a very happy Tennessee Virtual Academy student, it is important that your readers know the full story.

The TNVA is a Tennessee public school. It features state-approved curriculum, certified public school teachers, and it must meet all the same state testing and accountability measures as any local neighborhood public school.

But while traditional schools may work for many students, some students need other options. That's why more than 2,000 families across our state selected this online public school as the very best option we could find.

Reports on the school's initial standardized test scores should be kept in perspective. Since we are a brand new school, only a small percentage of our first-year students were in the school the entire year prior to the state TCAP tests. Plus, nearly 40 percent of those students (including my own child) were previously home-schooled, so had never taken the state TCAP tests before.

My child is getting a superior education with TNVA and K12. I watch her learn every day. We are grateful to the Tennessee General Assembly for giving our family this new and innovative public school.

LINDA SUE SIMMONS RUNYEON, Kingston Springs, Tenn.

Eliminate test for three years

Emission testing: I think this has been a failure and a burden on everyone, especially the working poor. If you drive an old clunker, how many miles are you driving to cause any measurable pollution? Trucks, buses, afternoon back-up on I-24 and increased air traffic negates any benefit from car inspections.

My suggestion — eliminate the test for three years and see how much air quality is affected.

DAVID A. BROWN, East Ridge

A chance to put down Fox News?

In regard to the complaint about Fox News not showing respect at the Democratic convention. I was checking back and forth to each channel. Most of the time none of them had "full-time" sound as we did and their backs were turned. What you saw was probably one of those times or maybe it was just a chance to put Fox down.

JOYCE YOUNG, Rossville

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John_Proctor said...

Mr. Rayburn, who built the roads your trucks are running on? Did you build them? Try running your fleet without them. Take away the roads our government built and you will have a difficult time staying in business much less making a profit.

September 22, 2012 at 12:25 a.m.
ToHoldNothing said...

Apathy to symbols is not always the same as apathy to ideals, though they can be correlated. I honestly think that the flag should not be regarded with such respect as if it is an object of worship.

Surprise surprise. No arguments, so religion-heads just throw threats of hellfire to the secularists. Honestly, this is like a 5 year old's argument.

And lest we forget the idiocy of those that don't understand the nuances of the first amendment, we're quickly reminded of that as well. Separation of church and state is not derived merely from the 1st amendment's establishment clause. Check Article 6, paragraph 3 of the Constitution.

September 22, 2012 at 12:37 a.m.

ToHoldNothing, To You, and, all the others who don't understand the nuances of the first amendment, please behold the following:

*** From The Congressional Record of our United States of America: Thursday April 26, 2012 112th Congress Second Session Vol.158 No. 61

"The PRESIDING OFFICER. Today's opening prayer will be offered by Rev. Joel Osteen, senior pastor...The guest Chaplain offered the following prayer: Let us pray. Father we receive Your blessings today with grateful hearts, and thank You for the favor that You show us. As we pray for those who lead our Nation, we ask that You bless this body and those who serve in it. We thank You that these lawmakers serve with honor and integrity, and that You will continue to bless our Nation...Give them wisdom that they will make good decisions, courage that they will hold fast to Your truth...that all should prosper from their laws...We receive Your presence here today, Father, and pray that these lawmakers will remain mindful of You and that they will honor You...In Jesus' Name we pray. Amen

The Honorable Tom Udall led the Pledge of Allegiance, as follows: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of nation under God...

Please, ToHoldNothing , find Yourself a country. Find Yourself a country somewhere where You can present accurate statements regarding 'their' particular constitution. The first amendment, well, You possess the hubristic notion that You interpret this more lawfully that our United States Congress??? Remember, our Nation opens it's business of governing with Audible Prayer to The Lord God of Hosts, Jesus Christ of Nazareth! Case closed.


September 22, 2012 at 8:33 a.m.
moon4kat said...

Robert L. Rayburn, I want to give you credit for being a capable, well-informed man. If so, then you know that President Obama was talking about highways, bridges and other public infrastructures when he said "you didn't build that." Yes, he could have said it better; he should have said "you didn't build those." It's obvious that the President was not saying that you didn't build your business. He clearly meant that private business did not build all of those public systems that they rely on for transportation and support. Taxpayers did. Are Republicans so desperate -- or ill-informed -- that they hang their whole campaign on one misplaced pronoun? It is beginning to look that way.

September 22, 2012 at 8:47 a.m.
LibDem said...

ROBERT L. RAYBURN, You are justified in pride in your accomplishments. However, founding your political philosophy on an out of context quote is a bit of a stretch.

CYRILLA CURTIS, With few promotions of public, ostentatious prayer in the Bible, it's always good to fall back on a couple of threats.

KELVIN H. FLEMINGS, Do you guys never get tired of typing this Amendment over and over? Do you really think there is anyone who doesn't know it?

September 22, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.
moon4kat said...

Vicki Carole, Thank you for an excellent reminder.

September 22, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.

Jesus Christ>>>John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life..."

moon4kat , LibDem , One of the first orchestrated steps to dictatorial government is to cause the population dependency upon that government. The welfare state of explosive entitlement has been set in motion by this present administration. The statement 'You didn't build that' was powerfully thought out and well placed to further the socialistic agenda. Those who are either government-dependent welfare recipients, or, who seek socialistic power, support the concept of 'You didn't build that'. Deception is utilized when the light is shown onto those prepping society for dictatorship. The deception is to claim something like..."It was a misplaced pronoun". Yeah right!

September 22, 2012 at 8:59 a.m.
rolando said...

The independent clause, " didn't build that." could be as easily and more accurately be read as, " didn't build it". It would be more accurate since it was lead by the dependent clause, "If you own a business..."

The Obama was NOT speaking of the highways, bridges, etc, spin it as you may. That's what ALWAYS happens when he speaks without his mouthpiece, Mr. TelePrompter. His "articulate-ness" just goes away, as it does with Biden.

September 22, 2012 at 9:20 a.m.

Keep going Rolando, you already discredited yourself when you adopted the birther movement.

September 22, 2012 at 9:52 a.m.
LibDem said...

"One of the first orchestrated steps to dictatorial government is to..." use religion to legitimize the authority.

September 22, 2012 at 12:37 p.m.

Do a study on any of the following world dictators. Elucidate comparisons of these to the dispensational, New Testament, Lord Jesus Christ. If You attempt to revive the Old Testament school master, which was necessary for the beginning of the human creation of YHWH, You are excluded, seeing that You do not possess a time machine. Ready, set...go!

Algeria: President Abdelaziz Bouteflika, Angola: President José Eduardo dos Santos, Azerbaijan: President Ilham Aliyev, Bahrain: King Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, Belarus: President Alexander Lukashenko, Brunei: Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah, Burkina Faso: President Blaise Compaor, Burma: President Thein Sein, Cameroon: President Paul Biya, Chad: President Idriss , People's Republic of China: President Hu Jintao, Democratic Republic of Kongo: President Joseph Kabila, Cuba: President Castro, Egypt: Chairman Mohamed Hussein Tantawi, Equatorial Guinea: President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo,
Eritrea: President Isaias Afewerki, Gabon: President Ali Bongo Ondimba, Gambia: President Yahya Jammeh, Guinea-Bissau: Chairman Mamadu Ture Kuruma, Iran: Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, Kazakhstan: President Nursultan Nazarbayev, Laos: President Choummaly Sayasone, Madagascar: President of the High Transitional Authority Andry Rajoelina, North Korea: Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un, Oman: Sultan Qaboos bin Said al Said, Qatar: Emir Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani, Russia: President Vladimir Putin, Rwanda: President Paul Kagame, Saudi Arabia: King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al-Saud,
South Sudan: President Salva Kiir Mayardit, Sudan: President Omar al-Bashir, Swaziland: King Mswati III, Syria: President Bashar al-Assad, Tajikistan: President Emomalii Rahmon, Togo: President Faure Gnassing, Turkmenistan: Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow, Uganda: President Yoweri Museveni, Uzbekistan: President Islam Karimov, Vietnam: General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong, Zimbabwe: President Robert Mugabe.......There's request only.

September 22, 2012 at 2:13 p.m.
ToHoldNothing said...

The mere historical tradition of opening with prayer does not give it justification any more than a protracted history of slavery made it just under the Constitution.

I propose an amendment to the constitution that specifies that the government should remain as neutral to all religions as possible, showing no favoritism in the slightest. In this way, religious freedom is more aptly preserved, since the government would in no way show particularity to Christianity for historical prominence. And people would not be able to argue that separation of church and state is not explicitly found in the constitution, since this would serve as part of it by association.

Opening with a prayer is unnecessary and under this amendment, it would be replaced with a moment of silence that would accomplish the same means without giving the appearance of an official state religion in its legislative branch opening with a religion specific prayer such as this one.

September 22, 2012 at 5:17 p.m.

The United States of America is the richest and most powerful nation of all the kingdoms in the history of mankind. The reason is that we are a Christian nation. Jesus Christ has brought us to this prominence. If the Holy Spirit filled Christians were to leave, then, we would revert to a third world country. To refuse to give recognition, praise, adoration, thanksgiving to The Lord God of Hosts is a certain recipe for going the way of say...the soviet union. (not considered third world)

September 22, 2012 at 6:22 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

The United States of America is the richest and most powerful nation of all the kingdoms in the history of mankind.

For a variety of reasons, including our willingness to preserve individual freedom and NOT establish a theocracy.

September 22, 2012 at 7:28 p.m.

If I were the King of a Jesus Christ centered theocracy, then, based on love, we would be the most compassionate nation on earth. The laws would be fair to all people. Any person could say anything derogatory about anyone, or, anything they chose. Opinions would never be punished. Of course, we would strongly encourage (by suggestion only)that all citizens follow 'Amy Vanderbilt's Complete Book of Etiquette'(now, 'Amy Vanderbilt's Etiquette'). All governmental functions would open business sessions with audible prayer in Jesus Christ's name. We would honor every single religion in existence that is based on love. These religions could proselytize Christians. They could not, though, interfere with the established Christianity of the U.S.A., as an example, other religions would not be allowed to eliminate governmental prayer. Any adult consensual sexual behavior (in privacy) would be tolerated, although, not all approved, as in no laws against. Hate speech would be first amendment protected because it would be categorized opinion. Children would be protected in every way they are now protected under law. There would be many other protections of children put into place. Only prescription and FDA drugs would be legal (including alcohol=illegal). Capital punishment would be illegal. Life imprisonment would be legal. Women would have equality in every area of life that involved attaining income. Women, though, would not be allowed to be men. Men would not be allowed to be women. Both would be illegal. If the genetics identified the individual as a man, then he would be a man, regardless of (so-called) sex change operations. Individuals could be ostracized if they ever indicated they were attempting to 'judge' a person to condemnation in hell. They could state what the Holy Bible says about a situation/behavior. Until Jesus Christ returns to earth as the Lion of The Tribe of Judah, my Christian Theocracy would be extremely limited to only declaring what 'thus sayeth the Lord'. That would go for all of government/citizenry. Most every law the U.S. has on the books now would stay as is. Yet, although, but, when Jesus rules from Ephrata/Jerusalem (planet earth), well, then it is a whole new thing! Get ready, get ready, while You can. If i have left out anything about my Kingdom Theocracy, well, somebody will let me know, i know. +(:>

September 22, 2012 at 8:42 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr just laid out his blue-print for his theocracy!

If you want to read the rantings of a psychotic Christian, refer to Orr's post at 8:42. See if you can read it all the way through without feeling nauseous!

September 22, 2012 at 8:57 p.m.

Easy123, Thank You for the additional advertisement/publicity. I do hope many individuals will consider what a better U.S.A. in which we would live with a Christian Theocratic government. If You are willing please distribute this link to other venues/outlets. A 'polite' revolution is needed in our nation before we end up going the way of Democratic Party Liberals. I know we can recover from the catastrophe they have caused.

September 22, 2012 at 9:50 p.m.
ToHoldNothing said...

Ironic that more Christians are for capital punishment and can probably reference the Bible just as much to prove it as Orr could to defend his anti capital punishment/death penalty position.

Love how he is so specific against transexuals, but seems to let homosexuals pass by under this theocracy, when by his own holy text, they're supposed to be stoned to death same as disobedient children, which I see he doesn't mention

There's also a problem with his specifics about transexuals, since there are genetic combinations that would make someone both male and female. Would he just execute hermaphrodites on the spot? That means he'd allow for selective infanticide.

Some of this seems sarcastic, as in the whole protected opinion thing, as a satire of what he thinks many "liberals" believe in

September 22, 2012 at 9:53 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ken Orr, what would the penalty be for alcohol? Since you say it would be illegal, I assume that there would be punishment. Since a lot of churches use wine in the Eucharist, that presents a problem. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding, so he would be guilty.

September 23, 2012 at 8:06 a.m.
Easy123 said...


I bet Orr will say that Jesus didn't really drink the wine or that it was more like grapejuice. I've heard that myth many times by Christians that don't want to admit to Jesus' affinity for alcoholic beverages.

September 23, 2012 at 11:09 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Of course, you know the old joke:

Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah

Protestants don't recognize the Pope as head of the church

Baptists don't recognize each other in liquor stores

September 23, 2012 at 11:36 a.m.

***Some Say Inter-Sexed, Some Say DSD, Some Say "Just leave me alone, Jesus Christ and me have it all figured out".

Or***"Hey, do You want to live Your life by the rule of 'exceptions'"?

Thank You for the serious response ToHoldNothing. On the one point regarding being stoned to death, that was in the dispensation of the Old Testament. In the New Testament Jesus forgives every sin except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. In one very precious account Jesus compassionately forgives a woman for adultery. (of course, the man got up and ran away, or something?). Regarding individuals with sex change operations, I'm trying to say that they could not be given the government/employment of true Wives/Husbands. They would be penalized via fraud laws for attempting this. Now, regarding DSD... As a psychological counselor, I once had the honor of counseling an individual with Kallmann’s syndrome ( One of the disorders of sexual development). I had to do months of research to become effective as a good listener, and, sometimes responder. This was when I worked for eight years at Joe Johnson Mental Health Center. The point being, this individual who was enduring the complexities of being inter-sexed taught me some important facts. The most important being that the individual determines, by choice, if they are male, or, female. (The incidence in the U.S. is minuscule, (not unimportant, though) being anywhere from .018% to 1.7% of the population. The wide variance is due to whoever wants to protest what! They 'know' which gender they are. Jesus Christ gave them a much more complex responsibility to choose the right...repeat, they know who they are. Now, once they 'admit' to who they know they are, they are obligated to be morally/sexually chaste. That's right! That's what this individual taught me, and, the voluminous amount of my research confirmed it. There are an incredible number of exceptions to the rule as far as human bodies go. This is true throughout mankind. Sadly, many people take advantage of/misuse their physical/anatomical and mental exceptions. They try to play the system for various kinds of immoral/unethical gain. The person who shared the most intimate thoughts and emotions with me about their condition was a person of amazing truth/integrety.

September 23, 2012 at 11:36 a.m.


The ETOH could/would be prescription only. If an individual chose to abuse the drug, then, they would pay by failed health, penalties of law, or, probably both. Jesus Christ is The Lord God of Hosts! I believe, absolutely, that the wine was what percentage/degree? I don't know. Now, I just said that Jesus Christ is The Lord God of Hosts! Since He wanted to turn the water into wine, well, I, for one, would not try to prevent Him. Jesus Christ also worked on the Jewish Sabbath (Means 'day of rest'. Does not mean Saturday. Does not mean worship. Sabbath means 'day of rest', always has, always will. Sabbath (Hebrew) has never, ever, ever meant 'Saturday', or, 'worship'...never! Anyway Saturday is named after a god of Saturn, or, something? But, it has never, ever, meant 'rest'. The Spanish for Saturday is sá what? that's Spanish. 'Shabbat/Sabbath is HEBREW. Well, the rabbit trail took me away from the ETOH...I promise, i'm not consuming any!.......kwo

September 23, 2012 at 12:02 p.m.
Easy123 said...


Nothing you say is based on reality.

No on said 'Sabbath' meant 'Saturday'.

September 23, 2012 at 12:07 p.m.

Easy, Please tell me 'it ain't true' what You just wrote! If it ain't based on reality, then, it can't be true. Well, go ahead and look at what i just wrote using two interpretations. This could be a 'school lesson' regarding statements that are, or, are not semantically, and, analytically correct...euphemistically speaking, that is. Hey, but Easy, it is delightful that You didn't call me a curse word, or, just some 'hurtful' name. That's the biggest reason i truly thought You were a middle schooler, or, even late elementary. I never, ever, try to intentionally insult You! The name calling disappointed me in You. That's because otherwise, i always got a positive feeling/perception about You. Although, I guess that's just my personal problem.......kwo

September 23, 2012 at 12:16 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So, how does one get a prescription for aqueous ethanol? What diseases it it a treatment for?

I'm having trouble understanding how prohibition is a part of free society. Excuse me for being radical, but where does moderate use of alcohol, (for that matter marijuana) by adults, homosexuality, same sex marriage, cats and dogs living together, or choosing to watch R rated movies harm others in society? In a free society, people think, read, worship, speak, publish, and paint their houses anyway they wish, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. That you don't choose to drink alcohol (for some bizarre religious reason) does not mean that others may not. THIS is exactly why a theocracy is not the same as a republic. Your version of Christianity says no alcohol? Fine. Others allow it. Is yours against dance? Would dancing therefore be a crime?

September 23, 2012 at 1:06 p.m.

Since my professional experience is medical (Army Medic) and, another helping field, Psychology, then my belief is that ETOH would be used for anxiety treatment. This, more specifically, as a relaxant. Although i've not seen a Physician's written prescription for ETOH, I do know of Physicians who recommend a quality beer for relaxation, not for the purposes of extended sleep, but, to relax before sleep. Regarding cannabis, i see no reason for legalizing the smoking of the plant. There are too many respiratory and cancer threats associated with that. Also, deep brain chemistry and structural damage occurs. If an individual truly needs THC, then, there are prescriptions for that( Marinol). Even prescription Methamphetamine is available, also (Desoxyn). So, all of the lame excuses to break the law.......are 'bogus'. It is so much nonsense, almost pathetic, like the oh so compassionate, dutiful deer hunters who want to save the deer population from overpopulation diseases. Yeah, right! They use that lame, lying, excuse to be able to devastate innocent animals with lead bullets and sharp arrows. The most compassionate method would be to shoot them alright, but, with barbiturates. Anyway, the deer murder example is just to magnify the fact that hypocritical excuses are so obvious. They are not fooling anyone except themselves, making them the

September 23, 2012 at 2:11 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Not buying your "alcohol to treat anxiety" crap, Ken. Try again. Why would making alcohol illegal be an appropriate thing to do? Especially since many Christian sects allow it. Because some abuse it everyone else can't have it? Is that considered a free country? People speed or drive recklessly and cause accidents, so no cars for anyone, right? Overeating causes lots of health problems-in your theocracy we will all be on strict diets. Maybe sugar should be illegal? Or perhaps using ration cards would be a better idea.

September 23, 2012 at 2:44 p.m.

Well MADD {Mothers Against Drunk Driving} says their research gives them the following facts:

  1. Neurological dangers include impaired vision and impaired motor coordination, memory defects, hallucinations, blackouts, and seizures. Long-term consumption can result in permanent damage to the brain. Automobile crashes during inebriation and when sober, murders family of every age. Even when sober, the ETOH damage causes impairment, which, contributes to the collisions. Infants, toddlers, adults, with, or, without safety belts/devices die horrible deaths. Very often the drunk walks away unharmed.

  2. Even 'beer only' abusers cost billions and suffer due to cardiological problems including elevated blood pressure and heart rate, stroke and heart failure.

  3. Added to the above billions and suffering are respiratory dangers including respiratory depression and failure, pneumonia, tuberculosis, and lung abscesses. Additionally, alcohol abuse increases the risk of mouth, throat and other cancers.

  4. The liver gets hit hard. Liver disease caused by chronic alcohol abuse, includes alcoholic fatty liver, hepatitis, and cirrhosis, kills at least 20,000 Americans each year.

  5. Other physiological dangers include damage to the gastrointestinal system (including duodenal ulcers, reflux, and diarrhea), the pancreas, and the kidneys. In addition, alcohol consumption may cause malnutrition, disrupt the absorption of nutrients in food, and suppress the immune system, thus increasing the potential for illness.

  6. Folks get addicted to ETOH. Psychological dangers include impaired judgment and verbal ability, apathy, introversion, antisocial behavior, inability to concentrate, and deterioration of relationships with family, friends, and co-workers.

  7. Alcohol is an especially dangerous drug for pregnant women. Drinking during pregnancy raises the risk of low-birthweight babies and intrauterine growth retardation, increasing the danger of infection, feeding difficulties, and long-term developmental problems. Heavy drinking during the early months of pregnancy can result in the birth of babies with fetal alcohol syndrome. These infants are likely to have irreversible physical abnormalities, including small skulls, abnormal facial features, and heart defects, and to suffer retarded growth and mental development.

  8. Loss of employment and productivity loss: Alcohol alone = at least $200,000,000 dollars annually.

September 23, 2012 at 5:06 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I am not arguing that alcohol is not abused. I have alcoholics in the family. I am saying that your "treating anxiety with beer by prescription" is crap. Also, millions enjoy a drink without abuse, without driving while impaired, without being pregnant. So, you're argument to make it illegal for all because some abuse is also crap. Argue first to make tobacco illegal, and maybe I'll listen. Until then, you better come up with a better argument to impose your religious views on everyone.

September 23, 2012 at 6:51 p.m.

Is it the case that You don't think ETOH decreases tension and anxiety? I stated it this way; " belief is that ETOH would be used for anxiety treatment. This, more specifically, as a relaxant. Although i've not seen a Physician's written prescription for ETOH, I do know of Physicians who recommend a quality beer for relaxation, not for the purposes of extended sleep, but, to relax before sleep". I in no way, shape, form, or, fashion believe ETOH could be a long term Rx for a DSM-IV diagnosis of anxiety. But, consider this: There were an estimated 1.5 million DUI arrests made nationwide in 2009. From 2009 until now, we are on course for seeing a 25+% increase to that statistic. Think on it, very few drunk drivers are ever caught. We could control that substantially (# of drunk drivers)by having medical personnel determine the need for individual alcohol consumption. We schedule other consciousness changing, powerful drugs. One child murdered by broken glass/mangled steel from a drunk-driver-caused auto collision is too many. ***i've been 'summoned' away, but, por favor, respond, i will check thread mañana...Gracias! kwo

September 23, 2012 at 8:53 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Deal with the DUIs directly, Ken. Enforce already existing laws. Also, alcohol disrupts sleep. Your ideas of a theocracy require that everyone's individual rights be taken away (except the "right" to do only those things that you approve of)

September 24, 2012 at 7:26 a.m.

Yes, You and i agree ETOH does ultimately disrupt continuous i already stated above that it is not to be used as a sleep remedy, but, as a relaxant agent. Please consider reviewing the following info:

J Abnorm Psychol. 2009 May;118(2):335-47. Alcohol selectively reduces anxiety but not fear: startle response during unpredictable versus predictable threat. Moberg CA, Curtin JJ.

Source Department of Psychology, University of Wisconsin-Madison,1202 West Johnson Street, Madison, WI 53706, USA. Abstract

Recent theory and empirical research have suggested that fear and anxiety are distinct processes with separable neurobiological substrates. Furthermore, a laboratory procedure has been developed to manipulate fear versus anxiety independently via administration of predictable or unpredictable electric shock, respectively. Benzodiazepines appear to selectively reduce anxiety but not fear in this procedure. The primary aim of this experiment was to determine if alcohol produced a similar selective reduction in anxiety. Intoxicated (target blood alcohol concentration of .08%) and nonintoxicated participants viewed a series of colored squares separated by variable intertrial intervals (ITIs) in 3 conditions. In the predictable shock condition, shocks were administered contingently during every square. In the unpredictable shock condition, shocks were administered noncontingently during both squares and ITIs. In the no-shock condition, no shocks were administered at any time. Alcohol significantly reduced startle potentiation during cues signaling unpredictable but not predictable shock, consistent with the thesis that alcohol selectively reduces anxiety but not fear. In addition, alcohol's effect on startle potentiation during unpredictable shock was mediated by vigilance. This anxiolytic effect may clarify the nature of alcohol's reinforcing effects in social and problem drinkers. [anxiolytic = anxiety relieving., as in, antianxiety drug, anxiolytic drug, minor tranquilizer. ] kwo

September 24, 2012 at 6:15 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I'm still not seeing an argument for making it illegal, Ken, except that you don't like the idea of other people choosing to drink.

September 25, 2012 at 8:37 a.m.
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