published Friday, August 2nd, 2013

Cause and Effect

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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Maximus said...

Ok Clay very cute. The so called "choice" issue has been trumped up by the secular humanist anti-God Democrat party for so long to heard bimbo women like Hillary Clinton into the Democrat voting booth that we are all board with it! Pro choice kill your baby Bla Bla Bla! Most abortions are killing potential Democrat voters so who really gives a crap. If only Obama's Kansas hippy flower child druggie Mother would have exercised her choice this country would be way better for it, yes Barry The Welfare Pimp is certainly an unviable tissue mass and an unviable idiot President.

Oh yea, Clay you are a complete failure.....yours truly, Your Mother..

August 2, 2013 at 12:17 a.m.
soakya said...

watch it maximus. drew was first, you could be next. remember you need to show the same respect to Obama that the left did to Bush.

August 2, 2013 at 12:20 a.m.

Choice to murder or not to murder. And we call ourselves civilized?

August 2, 2013 at 12:22 a.m.
bret said...

If abortion is murder as some of you claim then what should be the penalty for any girl or woman who has an abortion? Should they be put to death or would a lifetime sentence be sufficient?

August 2, 2013 at 12:35 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Boring

August 2, 2013 at 12:36 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

The choice is between Christie and Paul or old guard and libertarianism. Christie is positioning himself to be the inside guy doing the same things our last two presidents have done, which is to print and spend more money. Christie will continue the same policies the Republacrats have been promoting for the last 16 years while campaigning as a moderate conservative with fresh ideas. Rand Paul, like his father before him, scares the hell out of establishment republicans who fear they will lose control of their gravy train : defense spending. So perhaps they are getting a head start on derailing his ambitions. This little tiff is good for both party establishments and the status quo but bad for those who would hope for change during the next election. The abortion talk won't start till the midterms.

August 2, 2013 at 12:55 a.m.
alprova said...

In their incessant drive to prohibit abortion, Republicans are going to lose more and more elections.

Planned Parenthood, which offers health screening services at a much lower cost than what is charged elsewhere, oftentimes free for the poorest of women, all have targets painted on them.

This drive to shut them down because they offer abortions is going to cost the lives of many women and it will lead to an increase in many problems that Republicans proclaim they want to see eradicated, due to the costs to the taxpayers.


"Researchers say nearly 200,000 Texas women have lost or could lose access to contraception, cancer screenings, and basic preventive care, especially in low-income, rural parts of the state."

"About a year after Texas slashed its family-planning budget by two-thirds, with 50 clinics shutting down as a result, the Texas Policy Evaluation Project surveyed 300 pregnant women seeking an abortion in Texas. Nearly half said they were "unable to access the birth control that they wanted to use" in the three months before they became pregnant."

("Among the reasons: cost, lack of insurance, inability to find a clinic, and inability get a prescription. The state's health commission says Texas will see nearly 24,000 unplanned births between 2014 and 2015 thanks to these cuts, raising state and federal taxpayer's Medicaid costs by up to $273 million."*

"In a state where half of all pregnancies were unplanned in 2011, and 1 in 3 women of childbearing age lacks health insurance, this is only going to get worse."

Read the rest at;

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/03/what-happens-when-you-defund-planned-parenthood#13754199981341&action=collapse_widget&id=7321531


In the Republican quest to stop any and all abortion, they are dooming a certain amount of women to an early death, when cancers are not caught early enough to treat.

Abortion may be objectionable to some, but who is going to pay the cost of raising children who are not planned for and born to those who are ill prepared to raise a child? Worse, what about babies born to mothers who absolutely do not want a child?

Planned Parenthood provided avenues to women for contraception that prevented unwanted pregnancies to start with. I dare offer that they in are/were in fact responsible for preventing more abortions than were ever performed.

Rick Perry believes he will one day be President. His militant anti-abortion stance will prohibit that from every becoming a reality.

Only one President elected to office since abortion became legal in the United States was 100% pro-life, but he, like all of the past nine Presidents made no move to prohibit abortion.

George H.W. Bush was the only President who was opposed to any and all abortions.

August 2, 2013 at 1:43 a.m.
alprova said...

bret wrote: "If abortion is murder as some of you claim then what should be the penalty for any girl or woman who has an abortion? Should they be put to death or would a lifetime sentence be sufficient?"

Republicans would most likely opt for the hypocritical, and instantaneous death penalty, because the concern for preserving life by pro-lifers ends when a child pops out of a vagina.

Convicting them as murderers and placing them in prison for life would cost too much.

August 2, 2013 at 1:51 a.m.
fairmon said...

This is a worn out subject and not one person will change their view so much as slightly. Both parties would be wise to not have this be an issue and it shouldn't be. This is probably politically incorrect and not sensitive but those opposed to the present law never consider the fact that the dependent segment of society is proliferating at a much greater pace than those paying the bills. Those uneducated, mentally challenged, drug addicted, tats/pierces galore and the irresponsible with nothing to offer or attract a potential employer are having kids that usually turn out like them at a 2X or greater rate than those with good educations and good jobs. Abortions are only part of the answer but should be available and in many cases encouraged.

A different but effective approach would be a law that required finding and sterilizing any male that gets a woman pregnant that cannot and/or does not support her and the kid including a good education. Why is it the woman's burden alone to avoid pregnancy?

August 2, 2013 at 6:51 a.m.
DoctorJ said...

Life trumps "choice" every time. No one ever gave women the right to kill their offspring, whether in the womb or not.

August 2, 2013 at 7:09 a.m.
conservative said...

Amen DoctorJ.

Surely God will punish those who take innocent life!

"For you created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" Psalm 139:13-16 (NIV)

August 2, 2013 at 7:31 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpo: How much time did you waste on Wiki and Google preparing the above BS treatise?

August 2, 2013 at 7:53 a.m.
moon4kat said...

Throughout history women, their families and tribes have found ways to end unwanted pregnancies that would undermine the lives of the living. They will continue to do so, whether safe or not.
When a woman says that she cannot handle pregnancy, childbirth and/or motherhood, I'll take her word for it. She is the one who will decide, along with her doctor, her mate, and her conscience. It's nobody else's business, especially not the government.

August 2, 2013 at 8:02 a.m.
jjmez said...

Is anyone posting here old enough to remember a controversial case in Chattanooga where the religious hospital she gave birth allowed her to die in order to save child? Their justification was the fact it was a religious hospital and that was their rule. That is: If the life of the mother and the life of the child were at stake before or during a delivery, their focus was to sacrifice the mother in order to save the child. However, in many cases both the mother and child ended up dying anyway. I'm not sure how this situation turned out. If the child lived or not.

I came across some articles recently that stated Catholic hospitals are overtaking other major hospitals at an alarming rate. If I recall correctly, the above incident took place at a local Catholic hospital.

August 2, 2013 at 8:22 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

jjmz: What's your point?

August 2, 2013 at 8:31 a.m.
LaughingBoy said...

Moonkat is it the baby's business?

August 2, 2013 at 8:32 a.m.
moon4kat said...

LaughingBoy . . . at that point the "baby" is basically a tadpole, totally dependent on the health and sanity of the woman, who has the right to decide what goes on in her body. Important decisions -- like whether to give birth -- should be made by conscious adults, not undifferentiated bits of protoplasm.

August 2, 2013 at 8:38 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Which point is that, Moon? 1 week? 20 weeks?

August 2, 2013 at 8:41 a.m.
moon4kat said...

PT, I'll agree to 20 weeks, unless the life of the mother is in danger.

August 2, 2013 at 8:43 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

God is against abortion. His Great Holy Heiny prefers that babies are alive and kicking before murdering those precious little lambs He claims to love.

Psalm 137:9 "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."

Isaiah 13:16 "Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated."

God so loved the world, he condones bashing babies brains out, raping women, and killing innocent people.

With that attitude I want to consult the Great Jumping Jehovah about everything since Hitler and Stalin aren't available. He's a happy and loving Old Fart, isn't He?

"Jesus loves the little children, All the children of the world. Just as long as they are white and born to the wacko Right, Jesus loves the little children of the world."

August 2, 2013 at 8:45 a.m.
tifosi said...

A bunch of men making a decision for women. Not too bright.

August 2, 2013 at 8:47 a.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "Alpo: How much time did you waste on Wiki and Google preparing the above BS treatise?"

Sir, with the exception of that which appears between the two lines, that I properly attributed to it's source, what was written outside of those lines are my own words.

I invite you to perform a search to prove that they aren't.

I know it's tough not to be able to think for yourself. I'm sure it's frustrating for you because you lack the social skills needed to interact with others in a meaningful manner.

Try to keep in mind that there are people on this planet who do think about things before they type them.

August 2, 2013 at 8:48 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

That's what scares me, Alpy. You DO think about them first.

August 2, 2013 at 8:52 a.m.
facyspacy said...

When does it become a life? Is it at ejaculation or when the child begins to speak? If it's the first one then I have an abortiion in the shower every morning. I will never know what it would be like to be a woman so I will trust HER choice on the matter.

August 2, 2013 at 8:56 a.m.
Walden said...

This cartoon would be more meaningful if, instead of a balding old guy, there was a baby pulling the petals off the flower.

August 2, 2013 at 8:57 a.m.
alprova said...

tifosi wrote: "A bunch of men making a decision for women. Not too bright."

That is an excellent point.

Where are all the female conservatives, including politicians, who are as militant about prohibiting abortion, as their male counterparts?

I'm sure there must be one out there somewhere, who was elected to office in their district, on a pro-life platform.

For sure, there are female conservatives, but I can't recall one notable female conservative who has ever stood in front of a camera and proclaimed that she will do everything possible to bring an end to legalized abortion.

Now before someone jumps up and starts attacking me for stating that such a woman does not exist, I am merely stating that I have never seen such a woman.

We know that there are hundreds of men who have opined on the subject, some relentlessly, but I truly don't know of any women who have beaten that drum with the same fervor.

I've seen images of women hanging outside Planned Parenthood locations, holding signs and attempting to speak to women entering the facilities, but where is one "famous" militant anti-abortion female.

Even in this forum, there are women who participate, and miraweb is the only one I recall wading in on the issue, and she was not batting for the popular conservative stance on this issue.

August 2, 2013 at 9:06 a.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "That's what scares me, Alpy. You DO think about them first."

I see. If you prefer to read the mindless ramblings by twits who never use their brains, there are many outlets across the web where those kind of posts can be found.

Do you need some assistance to find them, or are you able to seek them out yourself?

August 2, 2013 at 9:10 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

That's what scares me, Alpy. You DO use your brain.

August 2, 2013 at 9:15 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Useless tumult over abortion. Roe v Wade is here to stay. Lefties use this non-issue as a spoon to keep things stirred up. Not unlike the "war" on women, use of the R word, and so forth.

August 2, 2013 at 9:17 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Walden said...

"This cartoon would be more meaningful if, instead of a balding old guy, there was a baby pulling the petals off the flower."

Maybe have one of those religious right-white wackos (there's so many so pick your own special goober) with his pregnant daughter rolling down a Christian hospital corridor headed for surgery telling a nun that his daughter is there for an emergency "D & C."

Or have Randall Terry plucking "No Choice" flowers using a coat hanger.

August 2, 2013 at 9:22 a.m.
moon4kat said...

PT, you are right that Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. However, you are in error regarding the cause of current controversy. Everyone knows it's the rabid right wingnuts (the American equivalent of the Taliban) who are stirring this up as an issue.

August 2, 2013 at 9:25 a.m.
alprova said...

Walden wrote: "This cartoon would be more meaningful if, instead of a balding old guy, there was a baby pulling the petals off the flower."

Why? No one I know, including myself, believes that abortion should be anything but a last resort decision, but it is ultimately up to a woman to make that decision.

Don't we have enough people running around this planet who have been born into circumstances where the mother was not financially prepared to raise that child without any assistance?

Conservatives are constantly hawking the 'fact' that criminals come from single parent homes, moan to the heavens above about welfare, the 49% of this nation that does not pay taxes, SCHIP, SNAP, and all the other social programs that are used to assist those who are trapped in cycles of poverty.

I have always found it a little more than hilarious, not to mention hypocritical, that most men would never look twice at a single woman when it is discovered that she has a kid or three, especially if they are pro-life.

"No used vehicles for me. I only buy new ones"

No embryo needs to be delivered into circumstances where it is not wanted. Years ago, orphanages seemed to exist on every city block. Kids who have been rejected by a birth mother, often grow up to be very maladjusted adults.

If every embryo that is delivered, was born into favorable circumstances, society might well be a whole lot different than it is today.

There are no absolutes to that which I have just written. For sure, there are many exceptions that can be raised. But the larger picture is what needs to be looked at.

Not a brush stroke or two.

August 2, 2013 at 9:35 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpo: Do you ever make yourself sick?

August 2, 2013 at 9:38 a.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "That's what scares me, Alpy. You DO use your brain."

Well then, that is a problem of your own that you will have to deal with.

I'm certainly not about to stop using my brain to seek your approval.

Your problems are your own to deal with.

August 2, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

The CIA has been routinely subjecting its operatives to polygraph tests in order to keep secrets from the Benghazi terrorist attack from becoming public, CNN host Jake Tapper’s program claimed Thursday.

Be worried Obama acolytes. Be very worried

August 2, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.
facyspacy said...

Oh wait PT, let me get out the world's smallest violin. I'm sure alp has a sad story to tell us

August 2, 2013 at 9:41 a.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "Lefties use this non-issue as a spoon to keep things stirred up. Not unlike the "war" on women, use of the R word, and so forth"

Say what you will, but I don't know of one Democrat who is waging war on legalized abortion and Planned Parenthood. No...that is a Republican agenda 100%.

And given the movement to abolish outlets where a woman can obtain a safe, legal abortion, as well as affordable access to specific and necessary women's health care by competent professionals, how can it not be determined as a war on women?

August 2, 2013 at 9:46 a.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "Alpo: Do you ever make yourself sick?"

Nope.

Do I make you sick?

August 2, 2013 at 9:50 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

yep

August 2, 2013 at 9:55 a.m.
facyspacy said...

Fertilization normally takes place within one day of intercourse but can occur up to six days later. At fertilization, the genetic composition of a preborn human is formed. This genetic information determines gender, eye color, hair color, facial features, and influences characteristics such as intelligence and personality.

There is no doubt that it is killing a baby. It's legal and the woman has a choice of when to kill the baby. I'm ok with that for a few reasons. 1. If it has nothing to do with my life 2. I have no idea about the situation of the mother. 3. It may mean a matter of life and death for the mother. 4. I don't think the subject should be based on religious beliefs 5. Clay Bennett draws abortions everyday :)

August 2, 2013 at 9:58 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpy, most on the right dislike tax supported abortions. (and don't give me the shiz that PP doesn't commingle the funds) You like those 23 week abortions, Alpy? Perhaps the left can come up with a drive-thru abortion clinic...woman need not get out of car; just flash an EBT card. Sound good?

August 2, 2013 at 10:01 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Waving away the Benghazi massacre as a "phony scandal" was vulgar and low class to begin with. Now, it's totally inoperative as a talking point. CNN sends Benghazi-gate into the stratosphere with a striking series of highly sensitive revelations.

Be very worried, Obama/Clinton worshipers

August 2, 2013 at 10:05 a.m.
facyspacy said...

Alp knows the voices in his head aren't real, but he thinks they come up with some great ideas!

August 2, 2013 at 10:11 a.m.
conservative said...

You kill your child, you kill him not.

August 2, 2013 at 10:13 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

ALPY: Don't spend so much time looking at Wiki for a retort....may be someone out front looking for that '99 Crown-Vic one-owner creampuff. Don't let'em get away.

August 2, 2013 at 10:17 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said...

"You kill your child, you kill him not."

Since your god controls everything shouldn't that be, "God kills your child, God kills him not?"

Either god controls everything or he doesn't. Ooops! Looks like god is psycho.

August 2, 2013 at 10:50 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Hey Dayton, it's ok to be disrespectful, but at least be clever. You reek, man.

August 2, 2013 at 10:56 a.m.
LaughingBoy said...

Pure hypocrisy, when there's rightful outrage for an infant being put in a dumpster but many think this is okay. An infant can't survive on his or her own, either.

August 2, 2013 at 12:05 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I would like to nominate Clay Bennett for unemployment for boring me to death once again.

August 2, 2013 at 1 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

This horse has been beaten to death and nobody is going to change anybody's mind. The "pro-life" yahoos are nothing but effin' hypocrites who consider life precious only when it is incubating in a woman's womb but the moment it pops out of her vagina it becomes one of the "moochers" and "takers" that they so much despise. The freedom loving government haters don't want government interfering in our lives but have no problem demanding that government intervene in a woman's uterus and force her to give birth against her will, even when she doesn't have the capability, desire, or resources to care for it. Then when it is born you "pro-lifers" want that government to back off and not share any responsibility in the upbringing of that child.

Pro-lifers. How noble and commendable you are in your valiant fight to protect the sanctity of life. Yeah, right. You make me want to gag.

===================================================================

On another note: I often wonder why it is that so many of you Bennett bashing wingnuts spend entire days at a time on this forum spouting the same vitriol, over and over and over again, against Bennett and his liberal views when you have so many other opportunities to respond to the many and varied comments from all the other contributors, both conservative and liberal, local and syndicated, to the editorial pages. I notice that hardly any of you even bother to go there, or if you do, you do not offer your commentary, even though what those writers have to say is every bit as topical and worthy of discussion as anything that flows from Clay Bennett's pen. It seems that you just like going round and round on this merry-go-round spitting venom back and forth with the liberals you so much despise. I'm really curious why you can't branch out just a little bit and offer more of your conservative/libertarian input to the various comments of others and get off this merry-go-round, at least once in a while.

A typical Bennett cartoon usually generates 150 - 200 responses and most of those responses are always from the some old 5,6, or 7 people just exchanging barbs and insults all day long, every day. Doesn't that get a little boring after a while? Seems kind of crazy to me. I'm not denying that I likewise engage in exchanging barbs and insults from time to time (witness the above) but most of you seem to hang out here ALL day long, EVERY single day, and never even bother to contribute your two cents' worth to the comments of other writers. Just wondering....what's up with that?

August 2, 2013 at 1:02 p.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

What seems to be forgotten is that God judged the nation Israel in Old Testament times for their mistreatment of the poor(and that would include children0 and the widows besides their treatment of God. That being the case...God should judge this nation for their treatment of the same

August 2, 2013 at 1:04 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

bret said...

If abortion is murder as some of you claim then what should be the penalty for any girl or woman who has an abortion? Should they be put to death or would a lifetime sentence be sufficient?

I guess there could be equal application of the law.

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin.

Ranging from states like Tennessee:

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-13-107 and § 39-13-214 were amended in 2012 by Tenn. Pub. Act, Chap. 1006 (HB 2517/SB 2412) to define "another," "individuals" and "another person" to include a human embryo or fetus at any stage of gestation in utero, when any such term refers to the victim of any act made criminal by the provisions of the law.

To states that the law applies only after viability:

Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. § 750.322 defines the willful killing of an unborn quick child by any injury to the mother of the child as manslaughter.

Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. § 750.323 declares that any person who administers medicines, drugs or substances to any woman pregnant with a quick child or uses an instrument or other means to destroy the child, unless the same shall have been necessary to preserve the life of the mother, is guilty of manslaughter.

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

August 2, 2013 at 1:22 p.m.
Maximus said...

I could care less about abortion. It is one of the many over blown girly social issues that the Republicans should neutralize with one core statement......If the majority of Americans want government to be involved in telling people how to live their lives fine, but as a party we are going to focus on three things Americans can't do themselves:

  1. A strong national defense against both foreign and domestic enemies.
  2. A strong Constitutionally based legal system.
  3. A strong private sector driven economy.

Clay is using the contrived Choice toon to distract readers away from the fact that the Obama administration is dead in the water coasting to a failed finish. Everyone, even his most liberal base are over it, Barry The Welfare Race Pimp! :)$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.....Get a job. Make your own future. Tell the victimizing liberals in your life to go hold their own pity party.

August 2, 2013 at 1:32 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

Rickaroo, who says the children should be on their own following birth? There's a big difference in that, and approving of mothers having kids for checks.

August 2, 2013 at 1:32 p.m.

you could at least give conservatives 5 fingers on both hands. just because you can't draw them properly is no excuse not to try.

August 2, 2013 at 1:33 p.m.
jesse said...

Look up abortion?? Has a pix of Maximus!!

Apparently his mothers abortion didn't work out so good!!

August 2, 2013 at 1:46 p.m.
prairie_dog said...

Hey, now draw a cartoon about the woman who, 38 years later, is still tormented by her "choice."

August 2, 2013 at 1:47 p.m.
tifosi said...

You must mean Maximus's mother.

August 2, 2013 at 1:51 p.m.
jesse said...

I WANTTA RAISE HELL ABOUT JOHNSON'S FIRING!!!

Clays been runnin these "abortion" toons since christ was a PFC!

W@HAT is his position on the SH@T storm on Johnson's firing??

Hey CLAY? Time to show who you are!!You a farmer or you a star??(from an OLD bad co.song!!Clay prob don't even know who "bad co" is!!lol!!

August 2, 2013 at 2:07 p.m.
jesse said...

http://www.123rf.com/photo_18970577_amazing-face.html

Max's mom right after she found out the abortion didn't work out!!LMAO!!

August 2, 2013 at 2:25 p.m.
jesse said...

HEY TIFOSI????? You gotta be the best HAIR SPLITTER on the planet!

First chance ya get? Get a LIFE!!!

Look up "anal" got a pix of "Tifosi!!"

August 2, 2013 at 2:30 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

In their incessant drive to prohibit abortion, Republicans are going to lose more and more elections.

Why is it that Liberals are so concerned about the electoral possibilities of Republicans? It couldn’t be that the Republicans are in the ascendancy on this issue?

Planned Parenthood, which offers health screening services at a much lower cost than what is charged elsewhere, oftentimes free for the poorest of women, all have targets painted on them.

So it’s not about the availability of health screening services, it’s about the cost? I guess Medicaid doesn’t cover those services?

This drive to shut them down because they offer abortions is going to cost the lives of many women and it will lead to an increase in many problems that Republicans proclaim they want to see eradicated, due to the costs to the taxpayers.

It appears as though they are promoting a moral value over their financial interests. Doesn’t that run counter to the liberal mime that they are only interested in gather personal wealth?

Medicaid pays for abortions if the mother's life is in danger. Mother's that are not poor and have no insurance should be prepared to finance their own life saving abortions.

August 2, 2013 at 2:37 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said ...

In the Republican quest to stop any and all abortion, they are dooming a certain amount of women to an early death, when cancers are not caught early enough to treat.

The lack of abortion services causes cancer? ... Who da thunk it.

Abortion may be objectionable to some, but who is going to pay the cost of raising children who are not planned for and born to those who are ill prepared to raise a child? Worse, what about babies born to mothers who absolutely do not want a child?

In my opinion if they don’t deal with it before viability then the mother and the father bear the primary responsibility for the baby’s care.

Planned Parenthood provided avenues to women for contraception that prevented unwanted pregnancies to start with. I dare offer that they in are/were in fact responsible for preventing more abortions than were ever performed.

There are public funded avenues that provide those services so no real need to fund one that performs procedure that a large number of taxpayers disagree with and vote against.

August 2, 2013 at 2:42 p.m.
tbs1015 said...

I read these articles every day because I love to see ya'll fight and argue back and forth. The biggest thing that has stuck out to me is that PlainTruth never actually attacks someone's argument. He usually attacks their character or person, something he obviously knows nothing about. Congratulations, you are what is wrong with this country.

August 2, 2013 at 2:52 p.m.
jesse said...

This site is so STAGNANT that we gonna get an ALGA BLOOM before long!!

I can't ever remember the last time a new idea or opinion jumped up on here!! Al tellin everybody how smart he is!!P.T. tellin Al he's an idjit! Everybody else lookin for an opening to bump up their opinion of themselves!This is how the world runs!From the top to the bottom everybody has the samr agenda!! "LOOK AT ME!!"

August 2, 2013 at 3:02 p.m.
tifosi said...

jesse- I was referring to Prairie's post. But if you want to look up my anus.... :)

August 2, 2013 at 3:04 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tbs1015 said...

I read these articles every day because I love to see ya'll fight and argue back and forth. The biggest thing that has stuck out to me is that PlainTruth never actually attacks someone's argument. He usually attacks their character or person, something he obviously knows nothing about. Congratulations, you are what is wrong with this country.

The irony.

August 2, 2013 at 3:37 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova cut and pasted ...

"Researchers say nearly 200,000 Texas women have lost or could lose access to contraception, cancer screenings, and basic preventive care, especially in low-income, rural parts of the state."

Poor women are covered under Medicaid and those not poor ... will you know .... Right?

"About a year after Texas slashed its family-planning budget by two-thirds, with 50 clinics shutting down as a result, the Texas Policy Evaluation Project surveyed 300 pregnant women seeking an abortion in Texas. Nearly half said they were "unable to access the birth control that they wanted to use" in the three months before they became pregnant."

Birth control is widely available, it’s cost is not prohibitive, and for poor women there is Medicaid.

("Among the reasons: cost, lack of insurance, inability to find a clinic, and inability get a prescription. The state's health commission says Texas will see nearly 24,000 unplanned births between 2014 and 2015 thanks to these cuts, raising state and federal taxpayer's Medicaid costs by up to $273 million."*

If I had my say there would be free birth control pills and and condoms at the checkout line in every retail establishment. Even so they are not out of reach to any sexually active person that have the least bit of personal responsibility.

"In a state where half of all pregnancies were unplanned in 2011, and 1 in 3 women of childbearing age lacks health insurance, this is only going to get worse."

See above.

August 2, 2013 at 3:39 p.m.
jesse said...

First thing Tifosi!No one can do that till you get your head outta it!!

Since that ain't never gonna happin i ain't worrin about it!!

August 2, 2013 at 3:47 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

bret wrote: "If abortion is murder as some of you claim then what should be the penalty for any girl or woman who has an abortion? Should they be put to death or would a lifetime sentence be sufficient?"

Republicans would most likely opt for the hypocritical, and instantaneous death penalty, because the concern for preserving life by pro-lifers ends when a child pops out of a vagina.

You mean like the death penalty that you desire for certain gun owners? Protecting the right to life from viability to natural death is quite different than providing for a financially carefree existence for those that can provide for themselves and those in their care.

Convicting them as murderers and placing them in prison for life would cost too much.

Incarcerating law breakers is always expensive and many time excessively so.

August 2, 2013 at 3:48 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Here's a thought. Poor women should stop getting knocked up. I'm sure all will agree.🙍

August 2, 2013 at 4:19 p.m.
LaughingBoy said...

That would require responsibility.

August 2, 2013 at 4:31 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

As we close embassies & issue travel warnings: Kerry says " Drone ‘Programs [Ending] Have Eliminated Most of the Threat’ what a noot-noot

August 2, 2013 at 4:32 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

moon4kat said...

When a woman says that she cannot handle pregnancy, childbirth and/or motherhood, I'll take her word for it. She is the one who will decide, along with her doctor, her mate, and her conscience. It's nobody else's business, especially not the government.

moon4kat said...

LaughingBoy . . . at that point the "baby" is basically a tadpole, totally dependent on the health and sanity of the woman, who has the right to decide what goes on in her body. Important decisions -- like whether to give birth -- should be made by conscious adults, not undifferentiated bits of protoplasm.

moon4kat said...

PT, I'll agree to 20 weeks, unless the life of the mother is in danger.

Way to stay consistent.

August 2, 2013 at 5:04 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Jt: D'accord

August 2, 2013 at 5:16 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

Where are all the female conservatives, including politicians, who are as militant about prohibiting abortion, as their male counterparts?

I'm sure there must be one out there somewhere, who was elected to office in their district, on a pro-life platform.

For sure, there are female conservatives, but I can't recall one notable female conservative who has ever stood in front of a camera and proclaimed that she will do everything possible to bring an end to legalized abortion.

Now before someone jumps up and starts attacking me for stating that such a woman does not exist, I am merely stating that I have never seen such a woman.

Here you go.... As easy as it was to find those lists it is obvious that your ignorance about that subject is willful. I guess it fits with your usual tactic of posting something that you know is not true and then try to prevent other posters for calling you on it by qualifying it with “I’ve never seen, heard, or read anything about it”. As if the world outside you personal observation doesn’t exist.

http://www.sba-list.org/pro-life-women-leaders/national

http://www.sba-list.org/caucus

August 2, 2013 at 5:34 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

A bunch of men making a decision for women. Not too bright.

One man or woman one vote .... that’s the way we roll.

August 2, 2013 at 5:38 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

One way to stop abortions is to pass out contraceptives. During Sunday school at church, pass out condoms and birth control pills to the 8th grade and up.

August 2, 2013 at 5:48 p.m.
facyspacy said...

Pt said "On the money on many levels. https://twitter.com/jjauthor/status/362735467512348673/photo/1"

Excellent toon. Maybe clay can take some lessons on creativity

August 2, 2013 at 6:24 p.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "You like those 23 week abortions, Alpy?"

I don't like abortion, period, and any decision to have an abortion should be made as early as possible after discovering the pregnancy.

August 2, 2013 at 6:30 p.m.
alprova said...

Rickaroo wrote: "On another note: I often wonder why it is that so many of you Bennett bashing wingnuts spend entire days at a time on this forum spouting the same vitriol, over and over and over again, against Bennett and his liberal views when you have so many other opportunities to respond to the many and varied comments from all the other contributors, both conservative and liberal, local and syndicated, to the editorial pages."

It gets real boring patting each other on the back all the time, so they gravitate to this forum, where they attempt to pick fights for fun.

August 2, 2013 at 6:36 p.m.
facyspacy said...

Yeh, who cares about abortion.... Who cares about a troubled youth starting a fight and getting killed.... Lets talk about something else.... Next toon

August 2, 2013 at 6:37 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

moon4kat said...

Everyone knows it's the rabid right wingnuts (the American equivalent of the Taliban) who are stirring this up as an issue.

Versus the syphilitic left wing moonbats (the American equivalent of the Khmer Rouge)??

August 2, 2013 at 7:11 p.m.
tifosi said...

tifosi said... A bunch of men making a decision for women. Not too bright."

Jt6gR3hM said...One man or woman one vote .... that’s the way we roll.

Obviously written by someone that has a lot to learn about women. But, that explains why women think the GOP is waging a war against them.

August 2, 2013 at 7:40 p.m.
Maximus said...

Jesse, you really, really need to back off the medical ganja. Oh by the way, your gay Father wishes you had never been born. Now go get a freakin job. And Alprova according to your left handed logic I guess the solution to black on black crime is........wait for it.....more abortions! Poor little Trayvon Martin would have never tried to kill Zimmerman had he been sucked down the drain by an abortion docs vacuum device. A missed opportunity! Cheers and have an awesome weekend. I will without any guvment help!

August 2, 2013 at 10:45 p.m.
Maximus said...

Alpo definitely an Obama triple dipper deluxe......Disability, Medicare and EBT card. Oh yea, drives a Prius too.

August 2, 2013 at 11:02 p.m.
facyspacy said...

And an Obama phone to keep updated on tfp cartoons

August 2, 2013 at 11:11 p.m.

“I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child — a direct killing of the innocent child — murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? … Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.” – Mother Teresa, a (formerly) living refutation of the “they don’t care about children after birth” canard.

August 2, 2013 at 11:27 p.m.
Maximus said...

Good one fancy! Cradle to grave big government support financed by the tax payer is a prison created by losers as an excuse for their own personal failure.

August 2, 2013 at 11:30 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

Say what you will, but I don't know of one Democrat who is waging war on legalized abortion and Planned Parenthood. No...that is a Republican agenda 100%.

”I don’t know of” ... Really ... Again?

I would think that those from the other side would be just as certain to say that you are waging a war on helpless human babies. How heartless can a person be to kill an innocent and harmless baby.... See how that works?

And given the movement to abolish outlets where a woman can obtain a safe, legal abortion, as well as affordable access to specific and necessary women's health care by competent professionals, how can it not be determined as a war on women?

I’m sure that those on the pro life side would like to close every abortion clinic. However you may have gone one talking point too far with the - “affordable access to specific and necessary women's health care by competent professionals”. Of course you did include the CYA qualifiers “affordable”, “specific”, “necessary”, and “competent” to allow you the usual wiggle room. Why couldn’t it just be “access to healthcare”?

August 2, 2013 at 11:35 p.m.

The men coercing or pressuring women to “choose” abortion are the ones who love them not.

"Choice" is a euphemism for facilitating the whims of the neighborhood alley-cat.

August 2, 2013 at 11:45 p.m.
fairmon said...

Alprova...I admit I just caught a comment on the news that congress has apparently decided that congress and government employees will be exempt from AHCA requirements and keep their liberal tax payer funded all inclusive healthcare policies. Is this correct or did I hear it wrong? The number shown favoritism by being exempt is getting larger and larger. The number to pick up the tab for the added cost is getting smaller. 20 people can chip in a nickel each to come up with a dollar but for ten people the amount is doubled. why do those government employees want to pass up the best thing to come along since ice cream? How can they not go for something that will cost them less, provide better coverage at a lower cost and cover those heretofore not having access to good, low cost, high quality health care as those supporting the AHCA have stated over and over.

August 2, 2013 at 11:54 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "Alprova...I admit I just caught a comment on the news that congress has apparently decided that congress and government employees will be exempt from AHCA requirements and keep their liberal tax payer funded all inclusive healthcare policies. Is this correct or did I hear it wrong?"

You must have heard it wrong. The Republicans staged their 40th vote to repeal ObamaCare today, but Congress cannot vote themselves an exemption to the law of the land.

"The number shown favoritism by being exempt is getting larger and larger."

As I understand things, no one is being granted permanent exemptions from ObamCare. They are 1 year waivers.

August 3, 2013 at 12:16 a.m.
rick1 said...
August 3, 2013 at 5:15 a.m.
conservative said...

Think about the moral condition of a person who says that the taking of an innocent life is a hard choice.

August 3, 2013 at 7:43 a.m.

Even the likes of Ted Kennedy was pro-life until his inner alley-cat roared:

"While the deep concern of a woman bearing an unwanted child merits consideration and sympathy, it is my personal feeling that the legalization of abortion on demand is not in accordance with the value which our civilization places on human life. Wanted or unwanted, I believe that human life, even at its earliest stages, has certain rights which must be recognized – the right to be born, the right to love, the right to grow old. When history looks back at this era it should recognize this generation as one which cared about human beings enough to halt the practice of war, to provide a decent living for every family, and to fulfill its responsibility to its children from the very moment of conception.” (Sen. Edward Kennedy, 1971)

August 3, 2013 at 7:57 a.m.

It’s telling when the alley cats, their victims, and victims’ family members and close friends become indignant about having to confront this topic in public.

August 3, 2013 at 8:04 a.m.

"There are those who argue that the right to privacy is of [a] higher order than the right to life ... that was the premise of slavery. You could not protest the existence or treatment of slaves on the plantation because that was private and therefore outside your right to be concerned. "What happens to the mind of a person, and the moral fabric of a nation, that accepts the aborting of the life of a baby without a pang of conscience? What kind of a person and what kind of a society will we have 20 years hence if life can be taken so casually? It is that question, the question of our attitude, our value system, and our mind-set with regard to the nature and worth of life itself that is the central question confronting mankind. Failure to answer that question affirmatively may leave us with a hell right here on earth." (Rev. Jesse Jackson, 1978)

August 3, 2013 at 8:11 a.m.
fairmon said...

rick1....thanks that could be, I just caught a sound bite that congress and government employees would be keeping what they have. Apparently it means the government will continue subsidizing their plan at 75% and what they have now will be available to them. It was obvious by this article Pelosi still doesn't know her butt from straight up about it. In her incoherent rambling she says I think, I assume and it isn't yet clear that is what we are working on now and other disclaimers. I can't stand her, she is easy to not like.

I hope alprova is right in his accolades and unwavering support which I am sure is not due to his personally benefitting. The republicans irritate me with their voting to do away with the AHCA without proposing something better to replace it. I agree as written and being put in place it is, as one original authors and sponsor said, a "train wreck". OMB is now estimating added cost in the trillions. Too many cooks in the kitchen and too many special interest to accommodate is a disaster in the making.

August 3, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.
rick1 said...

Bennett is obviously getting his marching orders from Obama as he continues to recycle cartoons on abortion. And after what he saw happened to Johnson earlier this week Bennett knows not to cross Obama.

My suspicion is Obama strongly voiced his displeasure to Berke about Jonson's editorial and headline and Berke called TFP to strongly suggest TFP fire Johnson. I would not be surprised if does not receive some sort of payback from Obama.

This would not be the first time the Administration has threaten reporters. Internal Department of Justice emails obtained by The Daily Caller show Attorney General Eric Holder’s communications staff has collaborated with the left-wing advocacy group Media Matters for America in an attempt to quell news stories about scandals plaguing Holder and America’s top law enforcement agency.

Don't forget Gina Channell-Allen president of the Pleasanton Weekly in CA, said she had “received a call from the White House asking us to take out part of the story because it reflected poorly on the first lady."

It was reported the Obama Administration threatened to blacklist San Francisco Chronicle reporter Carla Marinucci from the press pool during Obama's visit to the Bay Area in 2011 because she covered an unflattering-to-Obama protest.

Obama hates freedom of speech when it does not agree with his views and Drew Johnson found out what happens when you piss off the Narcissists and Chief.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/09/18/emails-reveal-justice-dept-regularly-enlists-media-matters-to-spin-press/#ixzz2aueOIiIJ

August 3, 2013 at 9:43 a.m.
rick1 said...

fairmon, I agree the Republicans are no better then the Democrats. There are a lot of people whose employers' are no longer going to provide health insurance and they will either have to go into the exchanges if they can afford too or go on Medicaid. Why should we pay for congress and their staff to stay on the plans they are on now when a lot of us will not be able to stay on our current plan. Congress and their staff do not want any part of going into the exchanges and they sure in hell do not want to go onto Medicaid. That alone should tell you how bad this is going to be.

If you have not read this article you may find it very interesting.

http://www.valuepenguin.com/2013/07/aca-subsidy-cliff-may-incentivize-working-less

I know Al believes ObamaCare will be fine and we chickens flapping our wings but in my view he is being like a politician and is ignoring the fact that this in fact a train wreck and he just wants to kick the can down the road.

I hope he is right that it is not going to be as bad as being reported but when you look at what has happened with the government running Social Security, controlling Public Education and now they want to fully control health care, I'm not very optimistic.

August 3, 2013 at 9:54 a.m.
rick1 said...

Where is that 5% unemployment rate Obama had promised us? What is not getting much attention either is that 77% of the jobs created this year have been part time jobs.

We are becoming a country of part time workers.

August 3, 2013 at 9:55 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

As I understand things, no one is being granted permanent exemptions from ObamCare. They are 1 year waivers.

Could be, I didn't understand it that way in all cases. But, I still wonder why those exempt don't want such an outstanding option? Why is the IRS that is slated to help enforce it objecting to being included and asking to keep what they have?

All the current BS sure increases the support for putting every citizen in the country with no exceptions on Medicare, the new born up to the oldest. Set one premium for all that pays for it and implement an aggressive seeking out and punishing of abuse, fraud and poor quality care. Use the KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid).

August 3, 2013 at 9:59 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

^^^ not a problem, Rick. the community organizer is on the case. all will be well.

August 3, 2013 at 10:02 a.m.

"The [Supreme Court's abortion] ruling was unjust, and it is incumbent on the Congress to correct the injustice. ... I believe that the life of the unborn should be protected at all costs." (Rep. Richard Gephardt, 1984)

As Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has observed, Roe vs. Wade “wasn’t woman-centered. It was physician-centered.” It was the result of an undemocratic process – a decision made by "unelected old men." And because it was so poorly decided, it has ripped the fabric of American society apart and ensured a permanent fissure on this delicate issue. To the chagrin of alley cats and their accommodators, the issue will not go away anytime soon.

August 3, 2013 at 10:21 a.m.
facyspacy said...

Rick1 said, "Where is that 5% unemployment rate Obama had promised us? What is not getting much attention either is that 77% of the jobs created this year have been part time."

  1. 4.1 Million Fewer Jobs than Projected: In January 2009 the Obama Administration forecast there would be 137.6 million jobs in December 2010. Instead there were 130.3 million jobs in December 2010. Even 21 months later in September 2012, there are just 133.5 million jobs – 4.1 million fewer than the Administration’s forecast for late 2010.

  2. Slower Jobs Recovery than during the Great Depression: This is the only “recovery” since World War II when jobs lost in the recession had not been recovered by this point. In fact, the recent pace of job creation during the “Obama recovery” has been slower than during the Great Depression.

  3. Less Full Time Work: Since January 2009 the number of full-time employees has fallen by over 600,000 while part-time employment has grown by almost 1.4 million. This means part-time workers account for all of the net employment growth in the Obama years – the opposite of what Democrats predicted when they said their stimulus plan was “likely to move many workers from part-time to full-time work.”

  4. Manufacturing Jobs Down: Since January 2009 over 600,000 manufacturing jobs have been eliminated, the opposite of the Administration’s projected increase of 408,000 manufacturing jobs due to their trillion-dollar stimulus.

  5. Ten Times More New Dropouts than New Employees: During the Obama Administration, the number of people not in the labor force has grown by 8.2 million while total employment has grown by less than 800,000. This means that during the Obama years new workforce dropouts have outnumbered new employees by 10 to 1.

  6. Far Higher Unemployment Rate than Projected: September’s 7.8% unemployment rate remains far above the 5.5% rate the Administration predicted for this month in their January 2009 report on the projected effects of stimulus. Democrats actually predicted unemployment would fall to 7.8% in September 2009 – a full three years ago.

  7. Real Unemployment Is Almost 11%: If the unemployment rate included the “invisible unemployed” (discouraged workers who dropped out or never joined the workforce), the September 2012 unemployment rate would be 10.9%:

  8. More Unemployed Now than When Economy Was in “Free-Fall”: In September 2012 there were 12.1 million officially unemployed workers. That’s 39,000 more than when President Obama took office in January 2009.

  9. Two Million More Long-term Unemployed: In September 2012 there were 4.8 million long-term unemployed – over two million more than when President Obama took office in January 2009.

  10. Economic Misery up 80%: The “Obama Misery Index” shows that unemployment and debt have risen by a combined 80% since the start of the Obama Administration.

"Shame on those republicans and congress and bush." -Barry

August 3, 2013 at 10:33 a.m.
tifosi said...

Socialist/Marxist policy isn't working!!!

"Economic Misery up 80%: The “Obama Misery Index” shows that unemployment and debt have risen by a combined 80% since the start of the Obama Administration."

What an ignorant statement. We are coming out of a GOP created recession that has been the worst in our lifetime. C'mon... at least give credit where it is due. This turd belongs to President Bush.

August 3, 2013 at 11:19 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Sure it does, Tiffany.

August 3, 2013 at 11:30 a.m.
facyspacy said...

Tifosi said, "worst in our lifetime. C'mon... at least give credit where it is due. This turd belongs to President Bush."

Case and point.... Somebody else's fault

August 3, 2013 at 11:31 a.m.
jesse said...

Obama could be pres. for 50 years and Bush would still own this bad economy!In some folks eyes anyhow!

August 3, 2013 at 11:46 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

My favorite thing about Libs is their trying to pass themselves off as intebygodllectuals. funny

August 3, 2013 at 12:15 p.m.
jesse said...

The only thing bigger than a cons outrage is a lib's EGO!

SEE "Al!

August 3, 2013 at 12:21 p.m.
rick1 said...

tifosi,posted "worst in our lifetime. C'mon... at least give credit where it is due. This turd belongs to President Bush."

You want to blame Bush and the republicans for the recession but you refuse to accept the fact that Obama’s economic policies are the same as Bush's.

Both increased Government spending with Obama increasing it even more.

Both bailed out politically connected companies.

Both supported the feds easy money policy .

Both created new healthcare entitlements with Obamacare being even bigger.

Both have created new regulations on the financial sector and businesses.

Please explain how this turd of an economy belongs to Bush.

Don't forget Obama was a member of the U.S. Senate from 2004 until he entered the office of the Presidency in January 2009. During that time then Senator Obama voted for the increased spending bills as well that helped get us into trouble and remember the Democrats controlled both the House and Senate starting in January 2007.

August 3, 2013 at 12:31 p.m.
tifosi said...

facyspacy said... "Case and point.... Somebody else's fault'

Exactly. That is what you are doing.

rick1- It took the increased spending of a world war to get us out of the Great Depression. It took increased spending to get us out of our recession. Seems like we took the lesser of two evils. It was a cooperative effort by both parties towards the spending that went on. Greenspan and the GOP relaxed the laws that allowed the mortgage industry to willy-nilly.

Mr. Greenspan conceded: “Yes, I’ve found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is. But I’ve been very distressed by that fact.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html?_r=0

America had to bail itself out. No matter which party was in power, spending had to occur or the recession would have been far worse. Not bailing out the auto industry would have meant far more jobs lost through a multi-tiered auto industry (OEM, tier 1,2,3). The scapegoats here are grasping for anything, no matter how ridiculous, for strictly political purposes. Your arguments are very flawed and indicate that you have not attended Economics 101.

August 3, 2013 at 1:22 p.m.
facyspacy said...

Here you go Tiffany.... Slower Jobs Recovery than during the Great Depression: This is the only “recovery” since World War II when jobs lost in the recession had not been recovered by this point. In fact, the recent pace of job creation during the “Obama recovery” has been slower than during the Great Depression.

Bush's fault.?

August 3, 2013 at 1:39 p.m.
miraweb said...

You just have to look at this week's conviction of Goldman Sach's Fabrice Tourre to see it really was not the Bush administration's fault.

The Bush administration was just the poodle of the financial and oil industries.

The traders who cooked up the mortgage crisis needed the government to look the other way while they made a little money wrecking the world economy.

The conviction proves that while you can fool all of the muppets some of the time, some of the muppets have lawyers.

The Bush administration wasn't responsible. They were just the hired help.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/aug/01/fabulous-fab-tourre-guilty-fraud

August 3, 2013 at 1:40 p.m.
tifosi said...

"Slower Jobs Recovery than during the Great Depression."

It took 15 years to get out of the Great Depression and hundreds of thousands of lives lost. Then we had 20 years of paying the war debt. You are pretty damned ignorant.

August 3, 2013 at 1:42 p.m.
facyspacy said...

I added 5 million jobs. -Obama

Facts..... 3.8 million are part time with no benefits 9,000,000 other jobs have been lost since he assumed the throne

August 3, 2013 at 1:43 p.m.
facyspacy said...

We are never going to pay of this debt now, Tiffany.... We are almost in the 6th yr of this admin and we are 6 trillion more in debt. Looks like a slow recovery to me. Who's ignorant? I'd turn off that Obama phone and stop checking cartoons, you only have 100 minutes this month for service.

August 3, 2013 at 1:47 p.m.
tifosi said...

Volkswagen pays for my phone. :)

You are right. It will take a long time to pay down the debt. The GOP would have done the exact same thing. It was the only way. You can Monday morning QB this until the cows come home. It was the only way. Tennessee was a large recipient of the cash infusion. Billions went to the federal facilities in Oak Ridge to preserve jobs and accelerate clean-up from World War II.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/nov/19/oak-ridge-cleanup-project-gets-does-ok-could-cost-/

That clean-up is about the same as the auto bailout. We got a lot of the auto bailout money back.

"The End of the Great Depression

To many at the time, President Roosevelt was a hero. They believed that he cared deeply for the common man and that he was doing his best to end the Great Depression. Looking back, however, it is uncertain as to how much Roosevelt's New Deal programs helped to end the Great Depression. By all accounts, the New Deal programs eased the hardships of the Great Depression; however, the U.S. economy was still extremely bad by the end of the 1930s.

The major turn-around for the U.S. economy occurred after the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the entrance of the United States into World War II. Once the U.S. was involved in the war, both people and industry became essential to the war effort. Weapons, artillery, ships, and airplanes were needed quickly. Men were trained to become soldiers and the women were kept on the homefront to keep the factories going. Food needed to be grown for both the homefront and to send overseas.

It was ultimately the entrance of the U.S. into World War II that ended the Great Depression in the United States."

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1930s/p/greatdepression.htm

August 3, 2013 at 1:49 p.m.
rick1 said...

tifoai

You can not make an argument that there is a difference between the economic policies between Bush and Obama so you come up with some BS that spending got us into the mess so more spending will get us out of it.

In both the Great Depression and the most recent recession government involvement prolonged the Great Depression and the recession. Why do you put so much faith in the Government to fix the economy when it was their policies that caused the depression and recession in the first place? It has been proven wit FDR and BHO that spending will not get us out of recession and in fact FDR's policies took the recession to a depression and Obama's policies have not fixed the problem either. Big government does not work.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123353276749137485.html

When Reagan took office the economy was much worse then when Obama took office yet you did not hear Reagan continually blame Carter and he put in policies in place that encourage the growth of the free market.

From a NY Times article published in 1999: Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

"Seems like we took the lesser of two evils. It was a cooperative effort by both parties towards the spending that went on."

Earlier you said "This turd belongs to President Bush." Now you are saying it was a cooperative effort by both parties towards the spending that went on."

So are you admitting both parties were at fault or is it all still Bush's fault?

August 3, 2013 at 2:53 p.m.
jesse said...

I have come to the conclusion that the ONLY reason to HANG on the TFP bennett forum IS "Ya like to hang out w/low Intellects! Thet just keep proving it over and over!!

August 3, 2013 at 3:04 p.m.
tifosi said...

rick1 said... "Earlier you said "This turd belongs to President Bush." Now you are saying it was a cooperative effort by both parties towards the spending that went on."

So are you admitting both parties were at fault or is it all still Bush's fault?"

Go back and read what I said. Just like so many of the things you say, you bend the truth.

President Bush, his economic advisors and Alan Greenspan made "the turd". Both parties agreed on how to flush it.

Whether the spending was effective is nothing more than Monday morning QB.

August 3, 2013 at 3:10 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

It took the increased spending of a world war to get us out of the Great Depression.

It took 15 years to get out of the Great Depression and hundreds of thousands of lives lost. Then we had 20 years of paying the war debt. You are pretty damned ignorant.


The fiscal policies of the FDR administration, just like those of the Obama administration, did little to nothing to extract the U.S. from the depression. The war and the funds expended on it did not end the depression but did provide the conditions that did so. Although it hardly constitutes what one would consider to be well planned economic policy by FDR.

From the stock market crash until the start of the war the economy never really recovered even with the wide variety of social programs and government spending by FDR. The only economic factor that significantly sustained the U.S. economy during that period was the huge inflow of wealth from around the war and especially Europe in anticipation of the war.

During the war almost all available young male workers were removed from the economy. Consumer goods production was at a nil and nearly all economic activity was directed at providing expendable material for the war effort. This did nothing to promote a stable and growing economy.

The real end of the depression was as a result of the end and not the start of the war. The pent-up demand for consumer goods, homes, etc. along with the baby boom ended the depression. It also helped that the U.S was the only developed nation on the Earth that did not have it’s economic infrastructure destroyed by the war. It allowed us to be the manufacturing center of the world and thus the wealth that accrued to us and as a result rendered our debt from the war to be meaningless.

You really should reference better history sources and don’t you think it ironic that a company from a former defeated war opponent now provides you, an American citizen, with your common,readily available, and ubiquitous means of electronic communication.?

August 3, 2013 at 3:28 p.m.
rick1 said...

tifosi posted "Just like so many of the things you say, you bend the truth."

Please provide examples where I have done this.

"President Bush, his economic advisors and Alan Greenspan made "the turd". Both parties agreed on how to flush it."

Bush should have used his veto pen more often but it took Congress to build the turd because all spending bills start in the House.

Clinton's policies with Fanny and Freddie also contributed as well and if you noticed in the Dodd Frank Finance bill Freddie and Fannie were exempt from any of the new regulations.

August 3, 2013 at 3:32 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

fracyspacey: You simply cannot fathom the intricacies of the situation like Tiftonia do.

August 3, 2013 at 3:36 p.m.
tifosi said...

The hyenas are back.

August 3, 2013 at 3:47 p.m.
rick1 said...

PT, notice the MSM and Bennett have said every little to nothing on Al-Qaeda after they made threats that prompted the State Department to issue a worldwide travel alert and close down 21 embassies and consulates for the weekend. I thought Obama said Al-Qaeda is dead.

Very little is also being said about Benghazi and CIA operatives were on the ground at the time, and survivors are being told in no uncertain terms to shut up. On top of the CIA is conducting monthly polygraph tests to see if anyone is talking to the press.

At the same time Obama is campaigning talking about the economy for the 20th plus time and he has no intention of doing anything to make the economy better.

He only cares about living the life of royalty while the rest of us suffer.

August 3, 2013 at 3:57 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

Tennessee was a large recipient of the cash infusion. Billions went to the federal facilities in Oak Ridge to preserve jobs and accelerate clean-up from World War II.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/nov/19/oak-ridge-cleanup-project-gets-does-ok-could-cost-/

That clean-up is about the same as the auto bailout. We got a lot of the auto bailout money back.


That was hardly a part of the stimulus package as it started prior to the recession but was a necessary part of a vital national defense program. The need to remove and cleanse or store nuclear waste that will take 25 years and cost about $9-15 billion could not possibly be compared to costing the taxpayers about $50 billion to save the jobs of a few thousand unionized auto workers.

August 3, 2013 at 3:58 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

The hyenas are back.


It’s not our fault that your position is so untenable that your side can not muster an adequate defense.

August 3, 2013 at 4:22 p.m.
conservative said...

Destroy the unborn of a sea turtle and get a term in federal prison.

Destroy the unborn of humanity and get approval,applause and support from disgusting Godless Liberals.

August 3, 2013 at 4:29 p.m.
tifosi said...

Jt6gR3hM swallow...

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/oct/25/stimulus-funding-was-boon-to-oak-ridge-created/

BTW... Oak Ridge is Republican territory.

Like shooting hyenas in a barrel.

August 3, 2013 at 4:33 p.m.
facyspacy said...

When Obama took office, black unemployment was at 18%. Now the black unemployed is 38%.

Tiffany would say, "bush administration"

August 3, 2013 at 4:52 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

Jt6gR3hM swallow...

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/oct/25/stimulus-funding-was-boon-to-oak-ridge-created/

BTW... Oak Ridge is Republican territory.


Those programs and projects were already on the books before the stimulus and it was a political tactic to call their funding part of the stimulus.

Oak Ridge proper is hardly Republican territory however it is surrounded by right minded folk.

You really should inform yourself on surrounding area’s activities before you comment on them.

August 3, 2013 at 4:58 p.m.
facyspacy said...

"Statistics show that the African-American community is in bad shape under the Obama administration," the widely read web site "Your Black World" said this week.

Maybe al Sharpton can get a civil rights case against Obama since he is half white

August 3, 2013 at 5:06 p.m.
tifosi said...

Jt6gR3hM said... "Oak Ridge proper is hardly Republican territory however it is surrounded by right minded folk."

I am informed about the territory. I lived there for 15 years. It is without a doubt Republican territory. Which party do you think would be pro-nuclear weapons? Geeez... hyenas in a barrel.

August 3, 2013 at 5:07 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Rick1: right you are.

Tiffany: Should you want to learn more about the CIA/Benghazi gun running, look on page 43 of the NYT.

August 3, 2013 at 5:12 p.m.
tifosi said...

The NYT is left-wing. PT is a convert!!!

August 3, 2013 at 5:22 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Bollocks

August 3, 2013 at 5:31 p.m.
tifosi said...

You would look good in rainbow.

August 3, 2013 at 5:42 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

I lived there for 15 years.

You're a short timer but your politics were a perfect fit. I never lived in the city but did work there and observed it at an immediate viewpoint from the time period it was created out of a cow pasture.

August 3, 2013 at 5:52 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

The NYT is left-wing. PT is a convert!!!

And yet even they can't hide the malfeasance of Obama and his administration.

August 3, 2013 at 5:56 p.m.
tifosi said...

"You're a short timer"

Hardly, considering I was born there with a father that was a WWII Marine. A brilliant engineer, that helped develop a nuclear powered airplane (Project Pluto). I was one of the last born in a federal hospital.

August 3, 2013 at 6:03 p.m.
facyspacy said...

Wow, i admit to being wrong.... I thought Tiffany would have two dads and be from Oregon

August 3, 2013 at 6:53 p.m.
tifosi said...

Yes... you are wrong. BTW... that Marine voted Democrat all his life. Wondered why I supported President Reagan.

August 3, 2013 at 7:01 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "Apparently it means the government will continue subsidizing their plan at 75% and what they have now will be available to them."

On October 1, 2013, Congress and their staff will have to select health care coverage through the ObamaCare insurance pools that will be set up. The only change that was recently made, is that as Federal employees, their premiums for the new policies will be paid 75% by the Government, just as they are now.

"I hope alprova is right in his accolades and unwavering support which I am sure is not due to his personally benefitting."

I absolutely will not be benefiting from ObamaCare in the near future. My medical condition has deteriorated to the point that I must convert my PCIP insurance to Medicare.

August 3, 2013 at 8:25 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Why should we pay for congress and their staff to stay on the plans they are on now when a lot of us will not be able to stay on our current plan."

They are not going to be able to keep the insurance they have now. On October 1, 2013, Congress and their staff will have to start the conversion to plans that will only be offered through ObamaCare health insurance exchanges.

75% of their premiums will be paid by the Government, just as it is now, but the FEHB will only offer ObamaCare plans.

"Congress and their staff do not want any part of going into the exchanges..."

They will have no choice.

"I know Al believes ObamaCare will be fine and we chickens flapping our wings but in my view he is being like a politician and is ignoring the fact that this in fact a train wreck and he just wants to kick the can down the road."

The unknowns at this point lend to all the chicken wing flapping. Come this October, if what was promised is not delivered, you have my word that I will immediately and forever denounce Obama and the Democrats. There will be no acceptable excuse for not delivering affordable health care to the nation, after waiting fours years for it to be delivered.

I'm betting that when those plans are rolled out, that they will deliver the goods. Employers will have affordable insurance for their employees. Individuals will have something for them as well.

All these employers who are cutting employees hours will reverse those decisions and offer benefits as well. The insurers know full and well that they must deliver too, for if they don't, single payer will put them out of business.

I predict that the Republicans who have fought this thing for four long years will wind up with egg all over their face.

My theory is that the Republicans have been fighting this thing because they fear it will be EVERYTHING is has been touted to be. If it is, the Republican party will have absolutely nothing at all looking good for them.

If it is a train wreck, and the goods are not delivered, I will absolutely turn my back to anything and everything Democrat.

"I hope he is right that it is not going to be as bad as being reported but when you look at what has happened with the government running Social Security, controlling Public Education and now they want to fully control health care, I'm not very optimistic."

We're less than 60 days from O-DAY.

The promise is to offer policies and the coverage that people need. You'll be able to select the coverage you want and/or need, the deductible amounts you can afford to keep premiums low, catastrophic coverage only if that is your choice, or a full fledged Cadillac plan if you want that.

If that is not offered, I'm done supporting Obama and the Democrats.

God knows I've defended them, believed in them, and have trusted them. On or about October 1, 2013, the test results will be in.

Will they pass or fail?

August 3, 2013 at 8:54 p.m.
alprova said...

tifosi wrote: "We are coming out of a GOP created recession that has been the worst in our lifetime. C'mon... at least give credit where it is due. This turd belongs to President Bush."

The turd does not belong to GWB. It's equally a stretch to hand any credit for the recovery since then to Obama.

The economic recovery has been ongoing, albeit slowly, but the President's hands have been for the most part, tied by the Republicans in Congress. They are not willing to do a thing that would make the President look good.

And given the crap the President has been subjected to by so many on the right, he's not been very cooperative with them as well.

I do blame three Republicans, who are all three out of office now, for starting the snowball that began rolling downhill, but both parties voted for the legislation responsible for the economic collapse.

The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999, is the one piece of legislation that overturned Glass-Stegall of 1033, which prevented investment houses, insurance companies, and banks from commingling funds and from merging.

Had that not been passed by Congress with a two-thirds majority, the housing bubble, the mortgage brokerage explosion, the bundling of mortgages that were approved under false and fictitious standards, and the bundling of those horribly written mortgages and placed up as legitimate investments, would have never been possible.

Democrats came on board and sided with Republicans to pass that particular piece of legislation, only when the credit restrictions were eased for minority home owner seekers under the CRA.

All this was done before GWB took office. He is literally blameless for the economy collapse.

GWB is responsible for the two wars and the explosion of debt associated with them, but that's about it.

August 3, 2013 at 9:13 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

I absolutely will not be benefiting from ObamaCare in the near future. My medical condition has deteriorated to the point that I must convert my PCIP insurance to Medicare.

You must only convert if you are 65 or disabled and drawing SSI. Will you be looking for a medigap policy? I take care of my elderly mothers affairs including Medicare, medigap etc. Believe me, you will be affected by Obamacare. You did benefit from the prior condition exclusion before you became Medicare eligible?

You must be 65 since your very profitable business provides an income that would not allow you to be eligible for disability?

August 3, 2013 at 9:14 p.m.
alprova said...

rick 1 wrote: "Don't forget Obama was a member of the U.S. Senate from 2004 until he entered the office of the Presidency in January 2009. During that time then Senator Obama voted for the increased spending bills as well that helped get us into trouble and remember the Democrats controlled both the House and Senate starting in January 2007."

All true enough.

But here's the thing: You can criticize the outrageous spending that occurred in the middle of the deep, deep recession, but it did stop the slide of jobs into negative territory, which was reversed to a positive and has remained so ever since, starting in January of 2009.

Recovery has been slow, no question, but if you look at how things stand today, compared to January of 2009, there is a remarkable difference. This is not to say that everyone is doing better, but we are headed in the right direction, nonetheless.

August 3, 2013 at 9:20 p.m.
alprova said...

tifosi wrote: "The hyenas are back."

They never left. I find it much more pleasant to simply skip reading their posts and to completely ignore them.

There are still enough people willing to have a civil discussion, without giving the pack canines what it is they seek, which is the time of day.

August 3, 2013 at 9:26 p.m.
facyspacy said...

Alp said, "The unknowns at this point lend to all the chicken wing flapping. Come this October, if what was promised is not delivered, you have my word that I will immediately and forever denounce Obama and the Democrats. There will be no acceptable excuse for not delivering affordable health care to the nation, after waiting fours years for it to be delivered."

There are some unknowns.... But I'll be back in October to tell you "I told you so."

But in all honesty, I hope there is an answer for affordable healthcare and I know obum ain't the answer

August 3, 2013 at 9:37 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "You must only convert if you are 65 or disabled and drawing SSI."

Sir, I am now to the point that I am legally and permanently disabled, and now qualify for immediate SSD benefits and Medicare, but I definitely do not qualify for SSI. My PCIP coverage has been canceled, effective in two weeks.

"Will you be looking for a medigap policy?"

My medical condition is such that no insurer will issue me a supplemental or a Medicap policy. I'm sorta in no man's land for the immediate future.

"I take care of my elderly mothers affairs including Medicare, medigap etc. Believe me, you will be affected by Obamacare. You did benefit from the prior condition exclusion before you became Medicare eligible?"

I just now, within the last two weeks, became immediately SSD and Medicare eligible. I'm not even to the point where I am covered or on SSD, but I already know that I will never be allowed any supplemental coverage once everything is in place.

It's all in the hands of an Attorney.

"You must be 65 since your very profitable business provides an income that would not allow you to be eligible for disability?"

There are no asset limitations for SSD or Medicare. The nature of my medical condition and the treatment involved to sustain my life immediately qualifies me for both.

There may be more options open to me come October. I'm like everyone else in here now, in that I don't if ObamaCare will offer anything that will be of benefit to me.

The good thing going for me is that I am involved in a research trial and receiving comped medical care and some of my medication as a 'guinea pig.' The rest, I pay for myself.

My PCIP insurance was for the most part, catastrophic coverage anyway.

August 3, 2013 at 9:57 p.m.
jjmez said...

fairmon said: Those uneducated, mentally challenged, drug addicted,

You don't really believe all those private drug treatment resorts in operation all across America that's raking in billions annually are profitable because poor joe and jane are receiving thousands of dollars a day treatment from their facility do you? Google Plano Texas Black Tar heroin. Remember in or around 1998 when it came to light Texas teens from a wealthy suburb were overdosing and dropping dead like flies from snorting too pure a form of heroin called Black Tar? It was so pure they didn't even have to bother to cook it first then inject it. They snorted it. An emergency room doctor who tried to alert there was an epidemic taking place, because he was receiving up to 3 and 4 cases of overdosing teens in that wealthy suburb on any given night at the emergency room where he worked, was silenced and the matter was covered up. Spring forward to 2013. Now there's a story that heroin is finding its way to America's suburbs. As if heroin wasn't always there. As far back as the 1970s there was a heroin epidemic taking place in rural America. Then in the 1980s, the same thing in white suburbia America briefly came to light. Then again in 1998 involving those wealthy white Plano Texas teens. But this most recent story is trying to make it out to seem all new, and as if the problem just recently began when those inner-city dwellers began to move into suburbia America.

August 3, 2013 at 9:59 p.m.
jjmez said...

fairmon: You must be 65 since your very profitable business provides an income that would not allow you to be eligible for disability?

Actually, having a business doesn't necessarily affect a disabled person's qualifications to received disability. In fact, SS encourages disabled people to work, if only for a few hours a week. My time as a job placement officer, and advocate for the disabled, I personally placed many disabled people on jobs, and helped them to open a business, if only on a small scale.

August 3, 2013 at 10:06 p.m.
rick1 said...

facyspacy

The below link is a Obamacare Burden Tracker and in January of this year it included 157 different rules and regulations that make up the 127 million hours of paperwork per year. Who knows how many more rules have been added to the law and how many more hours of paperwork as well since January.

This alone tells you OvomitCare will not be affordable.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/aca_burden_tracker_.pdf

August 3, 2013 at 10:10 p.m.
facyspacy said...

It'll be affordable.... Just like a Ferrari

August 3, 2013 at 10:36 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

"You're a short timer"

Hardly, considering I was born there with a father that was a WWII Marine. A brilliant engineer, that helped develop a nuclear powered airplane (Project Pluto). I was one of the last born in a federal hospital.

If you were born there in the federal hospital (?) and left when you were 15 you have been gone for almost 50 years. That hardly qualifies you as well informed on Oak Ridge characteristics of a recent vintage.

If your father did any work on Project Pluto while in Oak Ridge he could have not had much of an engineering impact on it’s development. If he was at Y-12 then maybe some non-descript machine part or at X-10 some incidental lab research. All of the serious work was carried out at other federal facilities

If he was so brilliant why was he trying to develop a warhead delivery system that would be the equivalent of coal fired steam driven trains in the era of diesel/electric propulsion. Hadn’t he heard of ICBM’s that were cheaper, safer, and more easily maintained. Those idiots actually thought they were going to fly unshielded nuclear power plants loaded with nuclear weapons around at extremely low altitude over our country. The POS’s would have killed more of us than the enemy. Yeah if he really had any involvement he was “brilliant” alright

August 3, 2013 at 11:26 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said..

There may be more options open to me come October. I'm like everyone else in here now, in that I don't if ObamaCare will offer anything that will be of benefit to me.

I do hope things work out for you. I think you will find that the no denial or asking about pre-existing conditions applies to all medigap policies also. I am pretty sure it did last year during the first time enrollment.

August 4, 2013 at 1:08 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "I do hope things work out for you. I think you will find that the no denial or asking about pre-existing conditions applies to all medigap policies also. I am pretty sure it did last year during the first time enrollment."

That only applies to those age 65 and older. Unfortunately, there are only 22 states that require insurers to issue Medigap policies to Medicare recipients who are under the age of 65, and Tn. and Ga. are not one of the 22.

No insurance company is required to sell me a Medigap policy, and so far, I have been unable to locate any insurance company that voluntarily offers Medigap coverage to someone in my situation.

Legislation has been introduced to change that, but so far, nothing...

August 4, 2013 at 8:25 a.m.
tifosi said...

Jt6gR3hM said... "If he was so brilliant why was he trying to develop a warhead delivery system that would be the equivalent of coal fired steam driven trains in the era of diesel/electric propulsion. Hadn’t he heard of ICBM’s that were cheaper, safer, and more easily maintained. Those idiots actually thought they were going to fly unshielded nuclear power plants loaded with nuclear weapons around at extremely low altitude over our country. The POS’s would have killed more of us than the enemy. Yeah if he really had any involvement he was “brilliant” alright"

You obviously have little understanding of how the federal government works. As a young engineer, he hardly would have much say-so over which projects he worked on. He was working with a nuclear physicist by the name of William Ergen. You might of heard of his son Charlie Ergen, founder of EchoStar/DISH. You really showed your ignorance when you suggested it would have been flying over our country... it would have been flying around the Soviet Union. DOH!!! ICBM's were being developed at the same time as this project. ICBM's were far from being as established as they are today. Your feeble mind must be getting weaker as you strain to remember those days.

I lived in Oak Ridge as recently as 2010. I'll let your simple mind guess about the rest. :)

August 4, 2013 at 9:28 a.m.
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