published Thursday, February 21st, 2013

Duly Warned

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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alprova said...

What Tea Party?

February 21, 2013 at 12:29 a.m.
Anklejive said...

POISON!

February 21, 2013 at 1:06 a.m.
hambone said...

If not poison.

At least HALUCINOGENIC!

February 21, 2013 at 1:16 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Relabel the cup "Liberalism." As often, the drawing fails to speak for itself.

Liberalism has promised more than it can afford to pay for, and hallucinates that this is no problem. The Tea Party sees a problem, and sees that a government that stayed within its Constitutional functions would not have this problem. (It might have different ones.)

Our current President defends the problem against solution, with RINO help. Ron Paul would solve the problem (and bring on others). Even Paul Ryan was willing to work on it. Saint Paul would make Ron Paul look liberal: government should protect the peace of doers of good (I Tim 2:1-7) by terrorizing evildoers (Romans 13); that's basically it.

February 21, 2013 at 4:07 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

And I see he hasn't even tried to mention any particular problem.

February 21, 2013 at 4:14 a.m.
Cactus said...

Clay and other liberals cannot effectively debate the message, so they resort to terrorist tactics of attacking the messengers.

February 21, 2013 at 4:31 a.m.
joneses said...

Why are the liberals so against the Tea Party's ideas of responsible government, balanced budget, low taxes for all American's, no debt, freedom, smaller government, less government interference in all our lives? Bennett attacking the Tea Party is proof the liberals want to destroy America with massive spending, more debt, out of control government, complete government take over of all our lives, larger government. Will you liberals stop being so chicken sh!t and admit your agenda? Apparently your agenda is not that of the Tea Party so one can assume it is the opposite of the Tea Party. Please have the balls to admit you are for an America government that will have complete control of your lives. By the way the form of government you are afraid to admit you want did not work in Russia and it is not working in China or Cuba.

February 21, 2013 at 5:41 a.m.
joneses said...

Liberalism is a mental illness that blocks ones ability to talk about what they are for and because it is a self serving, feel good, in the moment illness it eliminates the ability to reason and focus on the out come of the decisions made by the liberal mental illness. Basically the liberal mental illness makes one mentally blind.

February 21, 2013 at 5:57 a.m.
Reardon said...

Haha, Al -- nice pithy comment.

February 21, 2013 at 6:13 a.m.
Easy123 said...

I hate the smell of ignorance in the morning, especially when it comes from some of the usual suspects (AndrewLohr and joneses). Cactus has embraced the ideology of ignorance as well.

I think the two posts by AndrewLohr are the most overtly dumb and oblivious posts I've read in a while. Surely, a human cannot be that dense?!

joneses' fallacious arguments and TeaBagger psychosis is becoming more banal everyday.

February 21, 2013 at 6:29 a.m.
degage said...

And Easy you will not admit you are a socialist or a marxist. We do laugh at you because you are so brain washed and all your crude remarks are just silly. We can tell you have had some pretty liberal profs since you parrot them, Salinsky style.

February 21, 2013 at 6:41 a.m.
Easy123 said...

degage,

"And Easy you will not admit you are a socialist or a marxist."

That's because I'm not a Socialist or a Marxist. Your delusion is very apparent.

"We do laugh at you because you are so brain washed and all your crude remarks are just silly."

Who is we? Your WingNut posse? Laugh all you like. I assure you there are many more laughing back at you. You know all about being "brainwashed", degage. Your mind was compromised long ago. My "crude" remarks are accurate.

"We can tell you have had some pretty liberal profs since you parrot them,"

You have absolutely no clue how college works. How would you know if I'm "parroting them" if you've never actually been to a public (or private) university? It's the same ridiculous, anti-college, "indoctrination", Rick Santorum bullsh!t. You're so blind to reality. Your WingNut propaganda doesn't coincide with the real world.

"Salinsky style."

It's "Alinsky", not "Salinsky". Learn how to spell the words you use, jackass. I assume you're talking about Saul Alinsky. You seem to enjoy bringing the man up for no apparent reason. You only discredit yourself even more by doing so but you had no credibility to start with anyway so you shouldn't worry.

Would you like to try again?

February 21, 2013 at 6:55 a.m.
degage said...

Easy. I'm well aware it is Alinsky, I hit the s then thought I corrected it ,should have reread my post. You must admit you are using his tactics so you have studied him like Obama says he did. He really uses alinsky playbook.

February 21, 2013 at 7:13 a.m.
Easy123 said...

degage,

"I'm well aware it is Alinsky, I hit the s then thought I corrected it ,should have reread my post."

I don't buy it. You've made the mistake before.

"You must admit you are using his tactics so you have studied him like Obama says he did."

I'm not using any "tactics" and I have not studied him at all. The man wasn't a Communist as you've suggested in the past. I've already made that clear to you. I don't know why you continue to bring the man's name up for no reason. But I guess that's how your ilk works. Constantly label Obama and Democrats as "Communist", "Marxist", "Socialist", and bring up the names of people you deem to fit in those categories in an attempt to slander the individual. What tactic is that? It seems to be WingNut tactic #1.

It's ok to study teachings and information, degage. Think of where you might be if you had done a little more studying.

"He really uses alinsky playbook."

No, he doesn't. That's another WingNut propaganda piece.

February 21, 2013 at 7:21 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I'll start listening to the Tea Party when they can field candidates that are not loony. Hasn't happened yet.

February 21, 2013 at 7:42 a.m.
degage said...

If Alinsky wasn't a marxist what do you believe he was? I do not believe all democrats are communist,socialist, or marxist. Some are but others have been overrun by progressives.

Kennedy must be turning over in his grave. His beloved country has been taken over by people asking the government take care of them instead of what they can do for their country. But then I don't expect you to understand his meaning since they probably don't teach such things anymore.

February 21, 2013 at 7:44 a.m.
Easy123 said...

degage,

"If Alinsky wasn't a marxist what do you believe he was?"

I have no idea. I haven't met the man and I truly do not care what he was. However, it is fairly obvious that Alinsky wasn't a Communist or a Marxist.

"Some are but others have been overrun by progressives."

More proof of your delusion.

"His beloved country has been taken over by people asking the government take care of them instead of what they can do for their country."

More WingNut propaganda.

"But then I don't expect you to understand his meaning since they probably don't teach such things anymore."

More idiocy from you. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Nothing you say is congruent with reality.

February 21, 2013 at 7:55 a.m.
joneses said...

ike,

So you will listen to the Tea Party when it stands for irresponsible government, runaway debt, runaway deficits, less freedoms for the citizens. Show some balls and admit you are for massive government intrusion on every aspect of our lives. Admit you want the government to control everything from health care to salaries, to the price of gas, what kind of car we should drive. Admit it fool.

February 21, 2013 at 8:35 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joneses,

Bask in your ignorance! You're wallowing in it. Admit you're a moron. Admit it!

February 21, 2013 at 8:39 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Admit that the Tea Party message is so extreme that their best candidates cannot win anything past a primary, fool.

February 21, 2013 at 8:44 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! Ol' Easy is getting uneasy. Which means he's about to get trigger happy and quick draw his water pistol. He is a little squirt, you know.

February 21, 2013 at 8:51 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Bennett seems to be trying to be boring. Is this the second or third, maybe forth time he has blessed us with a still life of a tea cup? Wow!

February 21, 2013 at 8:53 a.m.
Easy123 said...

joepulitzer,

LMFAO! Whatever you say, sweetheart. Your incoherence has been duly noted.

February 21, 2013 at 8:54 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Of course, the Tea Party Republicans are all about fiscal responsibility.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/02/20/montana-gop-chairwoman-posts-picture-of-plot-to-kidnap-president-using-watermelon-as-bait/

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

February 21, 2013 at 8:58 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "I'll start listening to the Tea Party when they can field candidates that are not loony. Hasn't happened yet."

loony? Is that what you call people that do not agree with you? You should expect more from yourself. I can think of a few people in office that are the type of loon that we need more of.

Rand Paul Ted Cruz Justin Amash Thomas Massey Steve Stockman Kerry Bentivolio Ted Yoho

Not that long ago Ron Paul stood alone.

February 21, 2013 at 9:01 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

Sticks and stones break my bones but squirts never hurt me. By the way, Easy, your Democrat side is showing: You're squirts are hitting low and to the far left.

February 21, 2013 at 9:02 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Nothing to see here, folks. Move along."

Thanks for the laugh. If you are too politically correct to have a chuckle over that you might consider a xanax, or a scotch.

February 21, 2013 at 9:06 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Oh, BRP? Buck? O'Donnell? Mourdock? Aiken? Angle? There are five Tea Party candidates that lost their elections for the GOP after defeating more sensible candidates. If not for those five the GOP would command the Senate.

Think that's bad? Look at this fundraising ad (which was withdrawn)

http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/20/opinion/avlon-gop-family-feud/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

A party with a legitimate message doesn't resort to this. I don't like Rove, but this goes too far.

February 21, 2013 at 9:08 a.m.
Easy123 said...

joepulitzer,

Mind-numbing incoherence. Are you drunk?

February 21, 2013 at 9:09 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

Where's ol' God-fearing Al? Did he smoke too much peyote last night? Or drink too much Blue Ribbon through a straw again?

February 21, 2013 at 9:11 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Ikeithlu,

You forgot to mention other TeaBagger lunatics like Michelle Bachmann and Diane Black.

February 21, 2013 at 9:11 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks for the laugh. If you are too politically correct to have a chuckle over that you might consider a xanax, or a scotch

Scotch will do nicely. Single malt, please.

You forgot to mention other TeaBagger lunatics like Michelle Bachmann and Diane Black.

Indeed. Scary. If the tea party is all about economics, why all the "pray away the gay" and prayers in schools stuff?

February 21, 2013 at 9:11 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

No, Easy, I'm joe; can't you read?

February 21, 2013 at 9:12 a.m.
Easy123 said...

joepulitzer,

"No, Easy, I'm joe; can't you read?"

Go no further. I have my answer. LMFAO!

February 21, 2013 at 9:14 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

OK, easy, I'm getting old now, so help me understand: I know the L stands for laughing, the M stands for my, the F stands for fat and the O stands for off. But what does the A stand for?

February 21, 2013 at 9:21 a.m.
alprova said...

joneses wrote: "Why are the liberals so against the Tea Party's ideas of responsible government, balanced budget, low taxes for all American's, no debt, freedom, smaller government, less government interference in all our lives?"

Because those elected as Tea Party candidates have come to define themselves as people trying to push ultra-right-wing agendas that mainstream Americans have rejected time and again.

Tea Party candidates were swept into Congress two years ago with promises to put America back to work, to provide the means by which to attack rising debt that concerns all Americans, and yet, what has been the focus of their legislative efforts?

Anti-abortion. Attempt after attempt to gut Social Security and Medicare. Attempt after attempt to infuse religion into public schools. Anti-ObamaCare. Oh...and not to mention anti-Obama. More recently, what's left of the Tea Party have taken on the fight to resist gun control measures.

"Bennett attacking the Tea Party is proof the liberals want to destroy America with massive spending, more debt, out of control government, complete government take over of all our lives, larger government."

That's your belief to hold, of course, but you have nothing to back it up with. Tea Partiers have spent all of their political capital being totally hypocritical in any expectation that the national debt has a chance of being reduced without taxes rising to levels that they once were, when debt was paid down, while failing to recognize the need to gut this nation's number one expense...the military.

"Will you liberals stop being so chicken sh!t and admit your agenda?"

You first.

"Apparently your agenda is not that of the Tea Party so one can assume it is the opposite of the Tea Party."

I've never met a Tea Party lover who was not a closet racist, number one, and it all goes downhill from there.

"Please have the balls to admit you are for an America government that will have complete control of your lives."

Tea Partiers have their own agenda in place to use the power of Government to control the lives of others, and you should know it.

When people stop trying to use the power of Government to prohibit a woman's right to seek an abortion, then come back at Liberals with any assertion that they are the only group of people in favor of Government control over people's lives, and spout the word "freedom" for all to hear.

"By the way the form of government you are afraid to admit you want did not work in Russia and it is not working in China or Cuba."

As is always the case, any comparisons to our form of Government, now, to those of the three you mention is ridiculous.

February 21, 2013 at 9:22 a.m.
Easy123 said...

joepulitzer,

"I know the L stands for laughing, the M stands for my, the F stands for fat and the O stands for off."

Not quite. Google it. Become enlightened.

"But what does the A stand for?"

Look in a mirror and you'll find the answer you seek.

February 21, 2013 at 9:24 a.m.
degage said...

Ike, How is your boating adventure going and where are you now? Are you planing the Bahamas or down Island?

February 21, 2013 at 9:30 a.m.
alprova said...

joepulitzer wrote: "Where's ol' God-fearing Al? Did he smoke too much peyote last night? Or drink too much Blue Ribbon through a straw again?"

Sir...I do not drink any alcohol and never have, the last time I smoked a joint was twenty years ago, and my last prayer to the Lord was about 10 minutes ago.

What was I doing last night? Sleeping.

February 21, 2013 at 9:33 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Hi, degage! Thanks for asking. Boat is doing well (it has its quirks like any boat, maybe more since it is homebuilt from salvage and used parts) and we are at the Garrison Bight Mooring Field in Key West. Our current insurance won't allow us to go further, so it's hang out here until it warms up further north. Perhaps the Bahamas next year, after an expansion on our insurance policy!

February 21, 2013 at 9:36 a.m.
Leaf said...

I've read that movements and ideas that build slowly and organically have more staying power and create more change than quick faddish things. Since the TEA party was built by billionaires out of astroturf, it makes sense that it's waning just as quickly. Unfortunately we're stuck with a bunch of House members who govern like three year olds. MINE MINE MINE. NO NO NO. It's hard to defeat a House incumbent.

February 21, 2013 at 9:50 a.m.
conservative said...

alprova said...

conservative wrote: "JESUS IS SINLESS! JESUS IS MORALLY PERFECT!"

Jesus himself disputes that in one of the very verses of scripture that has been the focus of controversy by yourself.

Mark 10:18 - "18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good — except God alone."

=================

Alprova, you wrote that blasphemy. You don't even seem to know why it is blasphemy

How can you possibly call yourself a Christian and not know who Jesus was and how/why he could not sin?

'Why the charade in calling yourself a Christian?

February 21, 2013 at 10:05 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

alprova, February 17, 2013 at 7:52 p.m.: Your belief in the Bible as a literal work of God locks you into the belief that God is a mass-murder, whether you admit it or not. My belief that the Bible is not the word of God, and instead is the work of many men, frees me from that belief.

alprova today: Sir...I do not drink any alcohol and never have, the last time I smoked a joint was twenty years ago, and my last prayer to the Lord was about 10 minutes ago.

WHICH GOD DID YOU PRAY TO, AL, Zeus, Osiris, Pan, Odin, Apollo, Thor, Eros, Mithras, Santa Claus?

February 21, 2013 at 10:07 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "we are at the Garrison Bight Mooring Field in Key West. Our current insurance won't allow us to go further, so it's hang out here until it warms up further north. Perhaps the Bahamas next year, after an expansion on our insurance policy!"*

You need to consider expanding your policy before you leave the lower Keys and head to the Dry Tortugas. The fishing down there is awesome, better than the Bahamas. You will find 6-7 foot goliath grouper under your boat in the anchorage. Fort Jefferson is worth a visit. You would then be able to say you visited the southern most point of the United States too!

February 21, 2013 at 10:21 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

BRP, we are actually talking about it. Next year for sure. We plan to come in April to avoid the boating crowds of Jan/Feb. Since we are both divers (but our gear is in storage up north) it is a place we don't want to miss!

February 21, 2013 at 10:26 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I have a brother who lives aboard and plies those waters. He is in Tampa right now for the winter and will be going through the lower Keys to summer in Charleston. He will not make that trip without stopping in the Dry Tortugas. It is the highpoint of the migration. Diving there is great too. You can still find remains from wooden hulled wrecks, and there is nothing like going nose to nose with one of those groupers!

February 21, 2013 at 10:33 a.m.
jesse said...

Those Grouper work good in a frying pan!

Next to Snapper my fav. ocean fish!Gittin hard to find either one tho!

February 21, 2013 at 10:39 a.m.

I would agree with today's political comics. If you are for a big government or need a big government (the 47%) then the Tea Party is a hazard to avoid.

February 21, 2013 at 11:48 a.m.
alprova said...

joepulitzer wrote: "WHICH GOD DID YOU PRAY TO, AL, Zeus, Osiris, Pan, Odin, Apollo, Thor, Eros, Mithras, Santa Claus?"

There is only one God.

Meester...I'll make the same challenge to you. Convince me that my statement is incorrect, rather than to sit there and attack me.

February 21, 2013 at 12:14 p.m.
conservative said...

alprova,

"There is only one God."

Correct. He is the God of the Bible. His revelation to mankind is contained in the Bible which you don't believe in which means that you have a different God than the God that is that revealed in the Bible.

February 21, 2013 at 12:33 p.m.
limric said...

I have often said that the Occupy Wall Street Movement and the REAL Tea Party should merge, bemoaned the fact that they haven’t; and always wondered why. After all, they both claim to desire the revitalization of the middle class.

The problem is that the legitimate Tea Party made two mistakes that muddied their movement and did nothing for the middle class. They went after the wrong boogie man. They allowed the real boogie men to misdirect - and co-opt their movement.

President Obama never was the boogie man they were led to believe. The corporatocracy is the real boogie man; The ruling elite its vampires. Unfortunately the Tea Party was fooled by a hungry wolf in sheep’s clothing.

So; how can the middle class be saved when there is a phony Tea Party obstructing Congress as their fake news networks continue to lie and mislead and them into voting against their own best interest? The answer I think is simple and would be a very very powerful force; a strategic merger between OWS and the sensible portion of the Tea Party based on the common values of both.

The OWS movement really changed the conversation and brought the term Wealth/Income disparity into the mainstream debate. It brought the open class warfare by the top 1% against the 99% into the psyche of a large number of people. The Tea Party brought to the fore corruption, legitimate big government concerns and waste the same way. How great would it be if these groups merged, wrested power from these corrupt elitists, united the middle class and really took our country back?

It’s still worth thinking about.

February 21, 2013 at 12:58 p.m.
caddy said...

Well said, AndrewLohr--as Always. Ask Progressives what they are progressing to and you'll get as many different answers as you have progressives.

February 21, 2013 at 2:01 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Limric, the problem is that there is no "sensible" portion of the Tea Party. If there were, they would not have anything to do with their extremist anti-government views. The Tea Party, more than anything else, stands firmly AGAINST government. They hate it with such a blinding passion that they don't even see corporatocracy as an evil but rather one of the freedoms that they espouse. To them corporations are people and they have had that notion strongly reinforced since Citizens United became the law of the land. They are unable to even see the extent to which big business has a stranglehold on our government and how much more oppressive that sort of enslavement is than anything our government has done or has attempted to do.

February 21, 2013 at 2:17 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

WOW lkeithlu. I am so jealous of you on your boat. Are you retired already? I must have missed your discussion about the boat. This is the first I know of it.

February 21, 2013 at 2:49 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Nurse, I really haven't said much about it. Yes, I retired from my primary job last May. I still have my other job, but it is seasonal. We've been cruising since November; steep learning curve but lots of fun.

February 21, 2013 at 2:56 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

that is awesome... again, I am jealous. Hope you guys have the time of your life. I am sure it is well deserved.

February 21, 2013 at 3:02 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Rickaroo said... "Limric, the problem is that there is no "sensible" portion of the Tea Party. If there were, they would not have anything to do with their extremist anti-government views."

This is not an accurate representation of what the Tea Party stands for. They are for smaller, more responsible government. They are not against government. I consider myself to be more extreme than the Tea Party and am not anti-government nor do I hate government. All of us should be concerned with the rapid growth of government and the reckless spending going on right now.

February 21, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Deserved? Probably not, as wicked as I am! ;) We are definitely having fun, though, when there are no mechanical problems. The boat took 12 long years to build-hope we get that much out of it!

February 21, 2013 at 3:35 p.m.
chatt_man said...

lkeithlu - I hope you have tons of fun and adventure on something you worked that long toward. Realizing the dream...

February 21, 2013 at 3:58 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks, everyone!

February 21, 2013 at 4:01 p.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Sad that a man with obviously some talent wakes up every day feeling the hate. Bet is goes back to unresolved childhood issues. Get well soon Tonney.

February 21, 2013 at 4:19 p.m.
Leaf said...

Ikeithlu, I'm so jealous! Power or sail?

February 21, 2013 at 5:08 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Detroit 453 diesel, Navy surplus. Lovely engine. Left handed screw.

44 ft steel hull Bruce Roberts design.

February 21, 2013 at 7:22 p.m.
fairmon said...

BRP said.....

All of us should be concerned with the rapid growth of government and the reckless spending going on right now.

Agree..Does no one object to the rapid growth and hiring to jobs that pay better than any private sector job with benefits 3-4X better than non government positions?

It is criminal the way both parties are putting our children and future generations in debt. I bet not one person here knows what the off book unfunded future liabilities that are not included in the debt are.

The tea party core beliefs sound OK but they like the democrats get side tracked with social issues...abort or not to abort, immigrate or not to immigrate, pray or no praying. We need to abort those in office and a lot of their programs and spending. We need to immigrate from the public qualified people with good business acumen and the guts to make good decisions. We all need to pray or perform whatever ritual is used that our government gains their sanity soon.

The libertarian party is not perfect but beats hell out of either party now in charge.

February 21, 2013 at 8:05 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

fairmon said... "The libertarian party is not perfect but beats hell out of either party now in charge."

I agree, but the vast majority, democrats, republicans, independents have become accustomed to government social contracts and have no intention of giving them up. I often wonder how the situation can be salvaged but have not been able to come up with a viable solution.

February 22, 2013 at 8:30 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

They've become accustomed to all government contracts, not just social. Indeed, government contracting out security and other functions is why we keep going to war in the first place. A lot of money to be made there.

February 22, 2013 at 8:32 a.m.
Maximus said...

Thanks Clay, a great brew for Barry The Celebrity Welfare Pimp and Joe Shotgun Biden to drink as they self destruct! Finally bring on the sequester! Laying off 800,000 mostly unionized Democrat guvment employees whats not to like! Cheers!

February 22, 2013 at 8:58 a.m.
Leaf said...

The Libertarian platform sounds good, but the problem is - like communism - it doesn't work well in the real world. If you read your Trotsky, Communism sounds like such a wonderful Utopian system. The only problem is that it fails to account for the darker parts of human nature.

Ayn Rand, similarly, sounds good on the surface. But in the real world if there were no checks on the power of unscrupulous individuals and 99% of the people on Earth were really just here to service the "Prime Movers," then that system would collapse quicker than you could say "Robber Baron."

Libertarians have a lot of good points, but the Wild West they pine for wasn't really that glamourous. Sure, lack of law is OK if you're the fastest gun west of the Pecos, but not that great for everybody else.

Are there a lot of badly written laws and regulations that have had unintended consequences? Absolutely. But the answer isn't to hold your breath and stamp your foot. Judicious GOVERNING is the answer. The TEA party candidates don't govern because they don't act like adults.

February 22, 2013 at 9:01 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Leaf said... "Libertarians have a lot of good points, but the Wild West they pine for wasn't really that glamourous."

As someone who calls himself a Libertarian I think I can say that you are mischaracterising what we "pine for". The federal government, restricted to its role as defined by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is not "no government" or "the Wild West". I think that if all of the social contracts now managed by the federal government were handled by the proper parties, the States, we would have a much healthier government. The various States could adopt different solutions to the social issues that concern us all and create a national social experiment that would make it possible to find best solutions.

By centralising these responsibilities we have eliminated the opportunity to compare systems and put too much power in the hands of too few individuals. A big centralised government is an ideal target for misbehaviour from special interests, big banks and big business. If you want to help big commerce form unholy alliances the best thing you can do is put all the power in one place where it can be bribed and influenced far from the objections of constituents.

The best examples of successful government today are smaller governments. Small is more manageable. Small is more accountable.

Finally, having a huge central government with a bloated global military invites confusion of economic interests and appropriate use of military power.

February 22, 2013 at 9:19 a.m.
Leaf said...

I consider Ron Paul to be the mainstream representative of Libertarianism and Ayn Rand's writings to be the extreme. But if he's the mainstream representative, Ron Paul is considered by the vast majority of Americans to be unrealistic in his goals. The phrase "Pie in the Sky" comes to mind.

If you want to strip down government responsibility to only the Bill of Rights, ignoring all the other amendments, that's very extreme. What about the FDA that keeps you from getting food poisoning every month? Interstate commerce regulations? Wall Street and Banking regulations that protect our monetary supply, the 13th amendment that banned slavery etc, etc, ad infinitum? That really is where we were in the Wild West.

February 22, 2013 at 9:51 a.m.
Leaf said...

Not that there isn't a ton of deadwood in the Federal government, and I'm with you on the size of the military. But you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

February 22, 2013 at 9:54 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

You are worried about the wild west before a particular State or States brought civilisation to the frontier. It is not fair to keep leaping from limited FEDERAL government to almost no government. While the west was wild the eastern States were able to bring a civil society to their citizens without abandoning the concepts of federalism and a limited federal government.

February 22, 2013 at 9:56 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Don't throw the baby out, just turn her over to a responsible parent.

February 22, 2013 at 9:58 a.m.
Leaf said...

So you don't think there's been any progress from, say, West Virgina in 1870? I wouldn't want to go back to that. Everybody always thinks they would be Rockefeller in their wish-fulfillment scenario, but most people would be an Irish immigrant with one shirt to his name working all day in the coal mine for slave wages and dying at the age of forty from black lung.

February 22, 2013 at 10:12 a.m.
Leaf said...

I wish that the world and people were a certain way, then Libertarianism would work and we'd all be polite and say, "Howdy ma'am as we tip our technicolor hats during our stroll down our nice clean main street. But that's not the way we are.

February 22, 2013 at 10:14 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

People like to hold Norway or Switzerland up as an example of what the US should be. Well, Norway and Switzerland did not have to be a part of the EU to raise themselves up to be that example. Just because we made the mistake of throwing the responsibility to the federal government does not mean that the only path was through the federal government. Statists, the power hungry, big commerce who prefer an easier target to influence, would all like us to believe so, but I do not buy it. I think we could have, would have, come to a better place if we had not lost sight of the fact that big government is ineffective and tends to serve itself and not its constituents.

Maybe the only time that bigger government is useful is in time of war, but then notice how the federal government seems to manage to keep us in a constant state of war and then uses that as an excuse to trample on our civil liberties. That is one case where I would be willing to consider throwing the baby out with the bath water, if that baby was our global military presence.

February 22, 2013 at 10:26 a.m.
Leaf said...

I think those little sparsely populated Scandinavian countries are not analagous to the US. Sure, we could learn things from them, and we should. But the sheer size and diversity of the US precludes us working like them.

Consider, pure Democracy and pure Communism can work very well on a small scale as proved by the early Greeks and Christians. But it depends on everyone having the best interest of the group at heart. Once you get a few jerks in your group (you all know some, right?) the whole things goes to ****.

February 22, 2013 at 10:36 a.m.
Leaf said...

The system we have now isn't perfect, for dang sure, but it won't get better just because a few TEA party people dig in their feet every single time and just vote against everything that doesn't fit in their narrow ideological view.

February 22, 2013 at 10:39 a.m.
caddy said...

Good point about small groups, and certain systems working or not working for various reasons. I would submit that the Bible suggest one simple reason why things don't work--the fall and depravity of man. Until a man's heart and mind is transformed by Christ alone, that man ( or woman ) will see themselves as the center of existence to varying degrees of course.

Again: the whole point of Progressives is that we are moving forward ( to borrow Obama's label ) but consider: There is nothing new under the sun. We are not progressing. Technological advance does not imply moral improvement. We are not getting better morally. We are the same sin sick people we've always been.

If the anthropological data suggest something short of the ideal, that is not because nothing is universal, but because two universals are in conflict: universal moral knowledge and universal desire to evade it. The first we owe to our creation. The second we owe to our fall.

February 22, 2013 at 11:01 a.m.
Leaf said...

We might be getting better. We might be evolving toward greater intelligence and understanding. Or we might not. Our progeny will see in a few thousand years if we haven't extincted ourselves by then.

"The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." - MLK Jr.

February 22, 2013 at 11:15 a.m.
gjuster said...

Perhaps if someone dug their heels in awhile ago the US wouldn't have over 16 trillion in debt

February 22, 2013 at 11:30 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Leaf said... "I think those little sparsely populated Scandinavian countries are not analagous to the US. Sure, we could learn things from them, and we should. But the sheer size and diversity of the US precludes us working like them."

That is only true if you accept the federal government's current role. If it was limited to its original role it would be more like comparing Tennessee to Norway and Kentucky to Switzerland where Norway and Switzerland had a defence pact and a coordinated military.

February 22, 2013 at 11:54 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

gjuster said... "Perhaps if someone dug their heels in awhile ago the US wouldn't have over 16 trillion in debt"

Yes, like when Lincoln destroyed the original concept of federalism and Woodrow Wilson created the federal reserve.

Look for any domestic legislation that is done during or in relation to a time of war to have a bad outcome. The conflict is used to justify things that would not stand up to closer scrutiny. Never waste a good crisis.

February 22, 2013 at 11:59 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

We are not getting better morally. We are the same sin sick people we've always been.

I disagree. We are making a lot of progress in acknowledging what is wrong with our society and finding solutions. What we did before was hide it and pretend it didn't exist. We never had a "Father Knows Best" country. The societal problems we face today existed then too. There are a few things that have gotten worse (kids watch more TV and play more video games for example) but this is not the product of a less moral society, but a delayed parental response to changing technology. This is but one of dozens of examples.

February 22, 2013 at 11:59 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

In the absence of a crisis CREATE ONE! We see that almost every day now.

February 22, 2013 at noon
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "I disagree. We are making a lot of progress in acknowledging what is wrong with our society and finding solutions. What we did before was hide it and pretend it didn't exist. We never had a "Father Knows Best" country. The societal problems we face today existed then too."

You may be living in a sea breeze induced bubble. Go live in the mean streets of Chicago or Washington DC for a couple of weeks and see if you come out with the same persecutive.

February 22, 2013 at 12:05 p.m.
Easy123 said...

BRP,

"Go live in the mean streets of Chicago or Washington DC for a couple of weeks and see if you come out with the same persecutive."

She will. There are many, many kids in the inner cities that are good, upstanding kids. They went through the same struggles as many of the gang members and murderers in the cities you mentioned but came out unscathed. I personally know several adults that grew up in the worst areas of Chattanooga (Poss Homes, Alton Park, etc.) that have grown to be outstanding, moral citizens. You're stuck in your Big Ridge, all-white bubble.

I never hear anyone say "go down to the trainer parks or the meth houses." It's always "the inner city" or some large metropolis with a lot of crime. Why is the "immorality" moniker always exclusive to the inner cities? There is a huge meth problem in this area, yet I never hear people reference it. Most only refer to the gang problem, "crack" or other racially charged "issues". It's strange to me how those are the first "immoral problems" people tend to reference.

February 22, 2013 at 12:10 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Gangs have always existed. Substance abuse has always existed. It was even worse when I was a kid, growing up in Lilly White Suburbia. (sort of-we won't get into just where) Dads that got drunk every night. Mothers taking valium. Cheating spouses. Kids getting drunk or high (shoot, when I was a kid you could buy alcohol or tobacco). Child abuse. Neglect. Mental illness. Adolescent sex and teen pregnancy. My children grew up in a world where we TALKED about these things rather than swept them under a rug. WE know so much more today about how to address these issues. And it is getting better.

February 22, 2013 at 12:27 p.m.
conservative said...

Hey Ike,

Are you working on those quotes by "priests" who sodomize children?

Did I miss your quotes by Binny Hinn, Tammy Baker, Jim Jones, Hitler, Jehova Witness, the Mormon "church", alprova, etc.?

February 22, 2013 at 12:57 p.m.
Easy123 said...

conservative,

How about a Jesus quote?

Luke 14:26-

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple."

February 22, 2013 at 1:03 p.m.
Leaf said...

The problem you run into when you try to make the point for a radically weaker federal government by comparing us to the EU, is that the EU is getting more centralized every year. They are being forced to in order to compete, and to prop up the weaker economies. You are sortof making the point that in today's world it is necessary to have a strong central government.

I realize you just mean to take the good parts, but I don't think you can get the good without the bad. You just have to work diligently to try to minimize the bad. I don't think that digging in your heels all the time is a recipe for success. The TEA party is analagous to a poker player who goes all in on every hand. It might work for a little while, but pretty soon everybody figures out their strategy and breaks them.

February 22, 2013 at 1:48 p.m.
Leaf said...

Random insult blah blah blah. Communist gay slam Obama etc. - JonRoss.

There, now you can forgo your next post. Done it for you.

February 22, 2013 at 3:13 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Leaf said... "The problem you run into when you try to make the point for a radically weaker federal government by comparing us to..."

There are a few simple laws that are fundamental and cannot be overcome by any new fangled political dance, especially by the clowns we currently have in the federal government.

One of those would be "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". I am not saying our government has anything like absolute power, but it is the only remaining super power, the biggest employer in the world, the largest owner of land in the world, has the biggest military in the world, probably has the most pages of laws in the world... You get the picture. That much power concentrated in one place has no hope of turning out well in the end. Someone will get at the wheel of this behemoth and do great damage with it. Maybe that someone already has his foot on the accelerator.

February 22, 2013 at 3:36 p.m.
Maximus said...

While they are at it....sequester Obama and Shotgun.

February 22, 2013 at 4:04 p.m.
Leaf said...

Yes, the government frequently overreaches, employs lots of stupid, lazy, and power-hungry people, and wastes too much money. But in order to radically restructure it like even mainstream Libertarians propose is not remotely possible through the system. It would require a major force operating outside the system. That force can only be armed revolution.

I know there are a lot of people - and probably some on this forum - who turn giddy at the prospect. But they don't realize the cost. It may come to that decades or centuries in the future, but only if it gets much, much worse than it is now. In the meantime, if we want to change government or society, we should keep our ideals in mind but work in the real world. Sometimes that means compromise. It means millions of people doing seemingly insignificant things that maybe adds up to changing attitudes.

Look at how our American society has changed in the last few hundred years. Africans and women are no longer enslaved, there is almost universal literacy, people have more freedom and more opportunity for happiness and fulfilment. I for one think we are headed mostly in the right direction. I guess that means I get labeled "progressive."

February 22, 2013 at 4:21 p.m.
fairmon said...

Total Homicides in some large cities (2011)

Detroit 346

St. Louis
113

Oakland 110

Memphis 147

Baltimore 195

New Orleans 199

Chicago
435

Washington, D.C. 109

Philadelphia 324

Los Angeles 298

Rest assured the majority of those 2,276 people that have been the victims of gun violence in our most dangerous cities were not murdered by those carrying legally-obtained firearms. The districts and neighborhoods where most of the nation's murders happen are plagued by broken homes, third- and fourth-generation welfare families, high unemployment, low literacy rates, rampant drug abuse, and limited opportunities for kids to spend their time constructively.

[above is an excert from an article in Freedom Watch]

How do any of the proposed laws address the root cause of the problem?

February 22, 2013 at 10:50 p.m.
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