published Friday, October 25th, 2013

The Maze

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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AndrewLohr said...

Yeah, we built that website, all right. Where were President Obama's campaign webmasters?

October 25, 2013 at 12:41 a.m.
alprova said...

Fox News and I'm sure some more right-wing sites, not to mention Republicans all over the nation, are whining because Kathleen Sebelius refuses to step down.

"No one is getting fired."

"The majority of people calling for me to resign I would say are people who I don't work for, and who do not want this program to work in the first place."

"I have had frequent conversations with the president and I've committed to him that my role is to get the program up and running and we will do just that."

You go girl!! Throw that middle finger up and let 'em know who matters and who doesn't!!

I'm in full agreement that the roll out of ObamaCare has been a wreck, but I listened to those techie heads testify this morning, and they all seemed to agree that along with the usual glitches that come with a project of the magnitude that ObamaCare comes with, was a very high demand for access to the site.

I also heard that although most of them feared there would be problems, no one sounded the horn very loudly. They each crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.

That much traffic volume was not tested, nor was it expected to be as explosive as it was that first week.

Each day has seen some improvement, and in due time, the site will be as good as others that serve the entire nation have become.

Do you folks want to know what I like about our President the most?

He's a man who will stand by and ignore all the partisan crap that is spewed day in and day out, and will never offer up a sacrificial lamb to please the partisan Gods.

That my friends is an employer that each and every one of us wish we all had. A man who understands that mistakes are made and even though he is taking a political hit for a very big boo-boo at the moment, he stands by those he has placed his trust in.

October 25, 2013 at 12:48 a.m.
alprova said...

Under Bush, Republicans Vigorously Defended Health Care Reform Despite Serious Glitches

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/24/2828261/hearing-post/

Flashback: GOP Wanted To 'Fix' Medicare Part D After 'Horrendous' Rollout

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/gop-medicare-part-d-obamacare

FLASHBACK: ‘Any time something is new, there is going to be some glitches’

http://thegavel.democraticleader.house.gov/?p=6117

October 25, 2013 at 1:07 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Now, alprova, you know these knuckledraggers don't want to hear any ancient history, I mean factual history. They will all deny how the Democrats helped them get that 'disasterous' Medicare Part D in place. It was a miserable rollout, but let's hear their Faux News version. The repukes have denied all funding to help with the ACA rollout, instead, they offer nothing but obstructionism and scare tactics. I'm seeing polls that reflect the average citizen is seeing their lies and misinformation for what it is, BS.

FLASHBACK A few weeks into the launch of the most sweeping health care reform law (Medicare Part D) in a generation, John Boehner declared that the implementation was a disaster.

"The implementation," the Republican leader said, "has been horrendous. We've made it far more complicated than it should be."

Boehner, of course, was talking about the rollout of the new Medicare prescription drug benefit -- known as Part D -- enacted in 2003 by President George W. Bush. He discussed the implementation woes during a Feb. 6, 2006 appearance on "Fox News Sunday," on his fifth day as House majority leader.

But did he want to repeal the benefit? No. The future Speaker soberly acknowledged the problems but saw potential in the law and called for improving it. "The good news is that the competition that's being created has lowered premiums significantly below where Congress thought they'd be when we put the bill together, so the competition side is good," he said. "I think the implementation side continues to need to be improved."

October 25, 2013 at 5:48 a.m.
caddy said...

You can't build a website that works ? Please tell More about how you think you can run a national healthcare system.

October 25, 2013 at 7:07 a.m.
conservative said...

alprova:

"You plagiarize when you take someone's ideas or words and pass them off as your own. It's a fancy word for copying"

"It's not illegal to plagiarize but it's morally wrong,.."

"If you're writing something and include word-for-word something you've read and don't attribute the words or ideas to that writer, you are plagiarizing. The origins of the word are said to mean "one who kidnaps the child of another" — which certainly gives a sense of the gravity of the charge."

from Vocabulary.com

October 25, 2013 at 7:16 a.m.
fairmon said...

My hope is that the site is working as intended in time to avoid postponing implementation. I agree republicans have been a pain in the neck but this cartoon suggest they caused the failed web site and that simply is not the case.

There is no one involved that is tech savvy enough to provide the vendor with a good scope of work then some last minute changes in the enrollment process caused some of the problem. As usual congress is talking about the who instead of the what. Lawyers are notoriously bad managers and we keep putting a disproportionate number of them in government and they commence prosecuting or defending people and ignore the governing systems and processes.

Firing Sebelius would solve nothing, in fact, things could get worse when looking at the president's staff selection performance. She is safe unless Valerie Jarrett decides otherwise.

Get the damn system working repeal all changes delays etc. and like Pelosi said we will see what we have. It is designed for a majority to like it with subsidies for those with incomes up to $94,000. There is no way to know or to make logical changes until it is fully implemented.

October 25, 2013 at 7:43 a.m.
fairmon said...

Can the economy handle the increasing debt? When did the end begin? From the Daily Wealth financial publication:

Richard Nixon closed the gold-exchange window in 1971. America reneged on its debts to foreign creditors. Even more important, banks no longer had to back up their loans with reserves linked to gold. Now, all public and private credit would be backed by "Federal Reserve notes" – so-called "fiat," or paper, money.

As a result, banks no longer faced any physical limit to how much credit they could extend. And the U.S. dollar no longer had any firm value. Nothing guaranteed the real value of wages. Nothing linked increases in productivity to increases in wages. Nothing protected the middle class from the rising tide of inflation… or the soaring power of the banks.

These changes transformed our economy and the nature of capitalism itself. No longer would our economy be driven by investments fueled by savings. Instead, our economy is funded by debt.

Debt of every kind has soared. Measured in inflation-adjusted dollars, America's total debt has increased from $5 trillion in 1957 to more than $60 trillion today – a 12-fold increase. Meanwhile, our gross domestic product has only increased from $2.5 trillion to $16 trillion, a six-fold increase. As a nation, we've mistaken credit-fueled booms for true prosperity.

October 25, 2013 at 8:36 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

I've said all along...let it go R's. This POS legislation will fail on its own, taking many Dems with it.

October 25, 2013 at 8:40 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Seems AntiBelle and Alpo mine the same sites. Interesting.

October 25, 2013 at 8:44 a.m.
anniebelle said...

PureLies, truth hurts doesn't it? This is all documented history, look it up, if you dare. I try to stay out of the fiction section at the library and the book store. Try as you might, you can't rewrite all of history, there are some out here that are not willing to be ignorant of facts.

October 25, 2013 at 8:49 a.m.
alprova said...

Just for the record Fairmon, not to defend Nancy Pelosi, there was far more said by her in the infamous quote that has been taken completely out of context over the past several years.

"You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention—it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting."

"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy." – House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, speaking at the 2010 Legislative Conference for National Association of Counties, 3/9/10

So many people believe that she uttered those words on the House floor, which simply is not true and it never has been.

October 25, 2013 at 8:58 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpo = The Ultimate Spinmeister. Hell, he even believes his own shiz.

October 25, 2013 at 9:04 a.m.
AgentX said...

I do not agree with this affordable care act, but it should be expected that any "new" program of this magnitude will encounter problems. People tend to overreact to a glitch. If everything worked 100% as designed without problems, there would likely be no need for customer service centers.
I think the site was designed in a hurry with too little communication on expectations. Now that the system has "gone live", they will certainly work on correcting issues that are encountered. I think the entire program (not just the website, the ACA too) was rushed to implementation without enough thought put into it.

October 25, 2013 at 9:17 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

X, Agree. But "glitch" probably not the right word for this flawed monstrosity.

October 25, 2013 at 9:20 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

As inept as Sebelius is, I'm astounded she's not working over at the State Dept.

October 25, 2013 at 9:21 a.m.
tbs1015 said...

PT once again never actually arguing facts

October 25, 2013 at 9:26 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

like you, pal?

October 25, 2013 at 9:32 a.m.
alprova said...

I sit here in front of my computer today, with the full knowledge that all the bitching, whining, and complaining by right-wingers is all for nothing.

All of the obstruction attempted by every single Republican to misrepresent, defund, or stall ObamaCare, has failed and will continue to fail.

In 2010, Republicans ran massive campaigns that if elected, they would address the needs of this nation, particularly those associated with the economy, and to date, they have failed to do that too.

A year and a week in our future, the mid-terms are going to be devastating for the Republicans, for they have no records at all to run on, to use to try to convince the American people to keep them in office.

"We tried...The Democrats prevented us from passing meaningful legislation...Harry Reid sat on every bill we passed"...etc, just isn't going to cut it, and I predict that this will be the resounding arguments offered by Republicans in the coming year.

Any Republican who is successful in their bid to keep their seat in Congress, will be one who shudders at the mention of the Tea Party.

There are no more magical rabbits left to be pulled out of hats for the Republican Party. Redrawing voting districts has produced nothing of benefit for the Republicans. Attempts to keep people from the polling booths have failed to work.

ObamaCare is going to proceed, it will not be a shining success this first year, just like the start of every other major program that the Government has produced, but the evidence that it will work will be firmly established by election day next year.

October 25, 2013 at 9:36 a.m.
jesse said...

Al, If you put it into context like you did?Still just as stupid as it was when taken OUT of context!

This entire A.C.A. deal is turning into a huge CLUSTER F##K! With no indications it's gonna get better!

October 25, 2013 at 9:38 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

alkarma, anniebelle,why don't you both get on the Love Boat and sail to Byzantium? You make a cute couple, you know.

October 25, 2013 at 9:41 a.m.
alprova said...

Fox News has embarrassed themselves once again, as have other right-wing websites, in running that totally false story about Obama changing the "caps" that male Marines will be wearing in the future.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/25/fox-ignores-marine-corps-to-claim-government-wi/196595

http://www.marines.mil/

October 25, 2013 at 9:45 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpo seems to be in an opium haze most of the time.

October 25, 2013 at 9:48 a.m.
degage said...

You, Al, are right, it won't be a shining success the first year and possibly the second and third. Maybe by the forth year an maybe never ,only time will tell.

My daughters insurance has been canceled so she has to try to enter this exchange. She lives in California so tried the state exchange and can't even get in. When she does she hopes her insurance will be less than the 1360.00 a month she was paying for a family of 4.

October 25, 2013 at 9:51 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Trying to get a grip on this obamacare. Let's see.....it will offer insurance to the few, while effing coverage up for the many. Have I got that about right?

October 25, 2013 at 9:56 a.m.
caddy said...

I am more and more convinced that Clay is actually a Fool who -- like His Liberal Progressive Cronie friends in Print & Media -- actually believe what they write...and draw.

October 25, 2013 at 11:05 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Hey Clay. Obstruction? What about these?To illustrate just how badly partisan gridlock has stalled work in the Senate, the House of Representatives has released a list of 290 bills passed in the House and now waiting for Senate action.

The list includes some major bills -- such as the Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the American Clean Energy and Security Act and the U.S. Postal Service Financial Relief Act -- and some minor ones, like the Star-Spangled Banner Bicentennial Commemorative Coin Act and the Shark Conservation Act. The legislation touches on everything from security, health care and food safety to naming post offices. Who's obstructing whom?

October 25, 2013 at 11:11 a.m.
miraweb said...

For people who have been locked out of the insurance market because of cherry-picking this is the first chance they have had in years to have insurance. It is very important that this gets working.

I've worked in IT and there is enough information out there now to see where the launch problems lie. About 50% of web projects over $10 million have serious problems at launch. They usually come from the same sources.

Non-technical managers believe technology is magic. They fail to understand that every change in the system they make is risky and can cascade through the whole system. The administration made 8 major changes to the specification - the last one made less than 30 days before the launch date. Technology is not magic.

Complex systems require professional level testing. The management team did not plan for testing time and did not understand testing methodologies. The testimony was correct: a system this complex needs several months of testing. To get several months of testing you have to start earlier and finish earlier than they did here. Government agencies are top-heavy with senior people that have little or no technology training. That is less of a risk if they have advisers who they will listen to.

The load was more than the system was designed for. That does reflect the strong interest in affordable health insurance. The system design would have come from HHS. Again, this looks like policy wonks trying to build computer systems. Would you let a policy wonk build an addition to your house?

Poor communication from the engineers to management. The hardest thing to manage on any complex project is getting the problems communicated up the chain. From the hearing it was pretty clear that the tech staff did not feel they had anyone they could speak to about serious concerns about the system. That is a huge risk for a project like this.

Political pressure. With the Republicans behaving like j%ck^sses there may have been less willingness to listen to any feedback that might have delayed the website launch.

Design flaw. The verification system relies on getting information from other systems such as Experian and government agencies. If any of those systems can't handle the load that feeds back into Healthcare.gov. This will be the hardest one to solve.

There was no technical integrator. HHS took on itself the tasks of integrating and testing the system "end-to-end". Normally, this is done by professionals.

The good news is that some people were able to sign up. Getting the first person through the system is much, much harder than all the rest. The administration has strong technology resources at its fingertips but they weren't involved in this project from day one.

The result: This launch failed for exactly the same reasons that Romney's "ORCA" app failed on his election day debacle.

Technology isn't magic.

October 25, 2013 at 11:27 a.m.

Yak, yak, yak, yak, beat those gums liberals, beat 'em till they bleed. It's a monstrosity that exists only to intrude into our lives. It's about control. Obama couldn't care less about the well being of others. Phony clown. Whether it's forcing marines to wear girly unisex hats so they look like meter maids, or it whether it's deciding if someone can have a colonoscopy or not, it's all about control. He's the ultimate prick. So, stop trying to make him appear noble, he's just a prick. It's so depressing reading his brown nosers on this forum put up post after post after post trying to make him look good. Don't you have jobs? I can see posting once or twice a day, but to post all day long tells me you're just a hack or troll. Get a life

October 25, 2013 at 11:36 a.m.
miraweb said...

I am impressed.

The House passed 290 bills that they knew didn't have a prayer of getting through the Senate?

OK - we knew 42 of them were "Repeal Obamacare." But 248 bills is still an impressive number.

You've got to admire a group of people so willing to waste our time and money just to make commercials for their own re-election campaigns.

Good thing the country doesn't have any real problems that need solving.

October 25, 2013 at 12:27 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Mira...Maybe a bigger apologist/spinner that Alpo. ...nah.

October 25, 2013 at 12:43 p.m.
miraweb said...

Degage- best of luck getting your daughter's insurance sorted out. I did see that on the California exchange website home page there is a phone number (1.800.300.1506). I wonder what options your daughter would have had without the ACA.

October 25, 2013 at 12:49 p.m.
miraweb said...

PT (Barnum?) - I don't have to "spin" at all.

My own state has had a running exchange for 6 years. Our state has 98.1% coverage and my plan is very affordable and has quite good benefits.

Gotta love that "RomneyCare".

October 25, 2013 at 12:53 p.m.
yddem said...

No Truth -

The Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act was signed into law in 2010.

The American Clean Energy and Security Act, basically a cap and trade system - no truth undoubtedly supports it, which is the reason for the complaint that it has not been passed - passed the House in 2009 with 8 Republican "yea" votes but was defeated in the Senate the same year because of Republican opposition.

The U.S. Postal Service Financial Relief Act was passed in 2009 with overwhelming bipartisan support but died in the Senate. I cannot find the reason(s).

The Star-Spangled Banner Commemorative Coin Act was signed into law in 2010.

The Shark Conservation Act of 2010 was signed into law in 2011.

So much for the truth as no knows it (or doesn't know it).

October 25, 2013 at 1:07 p.m.
caddy said...

Alpo:

"ObamaCare is going to proceed, it will not be a shining success this first year, just like the start of every other major program that the Government has produced, but the evidence that it will work will be firmly established by election day next year."

Some one write this down, mark the Date. One year will be here before we know it. The sun will be shining, all God's churen will have Affordable Healtcare... and Unicorns will be flying out all our Arses and the National Debt will be a thing of the past !

October 25, 2013 at 1:07 p.m.
miraweb said...

The funny thing is that won't be what people will remember. They will be comparing the ACA against all the fights they had with their insurance companies over "pre-existing conditions" and always being one fall or one heart attack away from bankruptcy.

They will also be comparing being locked into a bad employer because of insurance vs having other options for their lives.

What we have now with the ACA is already better than where we were.

October 25, 2013 at 1:10 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Mira: tell that to all the people with rate and deductibles increased. You apologists see things one way. This is, and will continue to be, a debacle. Hide and watch.

October 25, 2013 at 1:52 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

The Organizer has botched and lied about Libya. His BFF botched and lied about Fast y Furious. His State Dept is dysfunctional. His minions in the IRS are corrupt. And yet....and yet....you acolytes on here still defend him. Spooky.

October 25, 2013 at 2:03 p.m.
miraweb said...

Some of the early critics were right when they pointed out that the ACA was a government subsidy to preserve the insurance industry that health care relies on.

That is fundamentally correct.

If the subsidy goes away, then the insurance industry will be unable to pay for services needed by a growing elderly population. That is why of all the voices we hear about rolling back Obamacare, none of them are coming from the insurers.

If Obamacare doesn't work the insurance industry is looking at oblivion and we will likely go to Medicare for all.

I, personally, think single payer is cheaper and has better benefits then splitting the pie 40 (or 400 or 4000) ways and subsidizing insurers. The Republicans who want the ACA to go down are, whether they know it or not, advocating for a single-payer system.

October 25, 2013 at 2:04 p.m.
miraweb said...

Oooh! Oooh! I love talking point Bingo!

Lessee - Libya, F&F, IRS . . . BINGO!

October 25, 2013 at 2:09 p.m.
conservative said...

alprova:

I just now found your last night’s challenge to me. It will be quite easy to refute you.

It will not be short though because you will just repeat the same anti Christian lies if I do. So I will make it lengthy, you like lengthy. Why? I want to try to shame you into silence (I know, good luck with that) and if not at least to prevent others from being deceived by you.

If you don't respond then I will assume you missed my comments and repeat them.

Be on the lookout.

Now, considering all of the anti Christian and ungodly things you have written I challenge you tell me why you profess to be a Christian. What is your evidence?

October 25, 2013 at 2:17 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Talking points, Mira? You should know. But you didn't give in to #1...calling me racist. Yet.

October 25, 2013 at 2:38 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

Fox News and I'm sure some more right-wing sites, not to mention Republicans all over the nation, are whining because Kathleen Sebelius refuses to step down.

"No one is getting fired."

Of course no one is getting fired. Why would you fire someone who was given a task with a 3 1/2 year time period that was in excess of what this size project would require in the private sector. That had an estimate of about $90 million to complete and was brought in at almost $700 million. That was not tested in its final form and was rolled out anyway to present itself as a complete cluster f*&k and will cost many millions more to correct if it is fixable. No ... you don't want to fire anybody with that performance record.

"The majority of people calling for me to resign I would say are people who I don't work for, and who do not want this program to work in the first place.I have had frequent conversations with the president and I've committed to him that my role is to get the program up and running and we will do just that."

Who the He## does she think she works for if not all of the citizens of this country. Obama may be able to suggest her appointment but the peoples representatives hire her and the taxpayers pay her salary. She needs to climb down off that high horse or she can be “jerked” down if necessary.

You go girl!! Throw that middle finger up and let 'em know who matters and who doesn't!!

I think you’ve stumbled onto a critical point that this administration has been shy on hiring females for top positions. Even though Sebelius is grossly incompetent she has her sex protecting her job.

I'm in full agreement that the roll out of ObamaCare has been a wreck, but I listened to those techie heads testify this morning, and they all seemed to agree that along with the usual glitches that come with a project of the magnitude that ObamaCare comes with, was a very high demand for access to the site.

I guess you never heard of CYA!

I also heard that although most of them feared there would be problems, no one sounded the horn very loudly. They each crossed their fingers and hoped for the best.

They were only the subs. and Sebelius was the general contractor.

That much traffic volume was not tested, nor was it expected to be as explosive as it was that first week.

It was her responsibility to know that .... no excuses.

Each day has seen some improvement, and in due time, the site will be as good as others that serve the entire nation have become.

They eventually want to be in charge of our healthcare so when they f&*k up your surgery you will accept their promise to do better next time.

(cont)

October 25, 2013 at 4:36 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

(cont)

Do you folks want to know what I like about our President the most?

He's a man who will stand by and ignore all the partisan crap that is spewed day in and day out, and will never offer up a sacrificial lamb to please the partisan Gods.

You don’t seem to know the difference between loyalty to valuable employees and bullheaded incompetence to not weed out failures.

That my friends is an employer that each and every one of us wish we all had. A man who understands that mistakes are made and even though he is taking a political hit for a very big boo-boo at the moment, he stands by those he has placed his trust in.

The type of employer that in the private sector would go bankrupt but Obama is working on our dime ... is he not? Do you folks want to know what I like about our President the most?

He's a man who will stand by and ignore all the partisan crap that is spewed day in and day out, and will never offer up a sacrificial lamb to please the partisan Gods.

You don’t seem to know the difference between loyalty to valuable employees and bullheaded incompetence to not weed out failures.

That my friends is an employer that each and every one of us wish we all had. A man who understands that mistakes are made and even though he is taking a political hit for a very big boo-boo at the moment, he stands by those he has placed his trust in.

The type of employer that in the private sector would go bankrupt but Obama is working on our dime ... is he not?

October 25, 2013 at 4:38 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

Fox News has embarrassed themselves once again, as have other right-wing websites, in running that totally false story about Obama changing the "caps" that male Marines will be wearing in the future.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/25/fox-ignores-marine-corps-to-claim-government-wi/196595

http://www.marines.mil/

This story has been humped several times the last few days. There is no solid proof for or against the claim that Obama ordered the Marine Corps Uniform Board to design new unisex Dan Daly caps. However he is the Commander in Chief and he is ultimately responsible.

It is a proven fact that the company that made the female caps went out of business. As a result the DOD issued an order for the MCUB board to poll the Corp and see the reception of a unisex cap based on the current female type design. The response has been overwhelmingly negative for both male and female members.

BTW ... alprova the links you posted implied that Fox News said this was ordered by Obama and they are lies. I viewed the Fox video and they were only discussing the unpopularity of the cap and the $8 million price tag. That this was being addressed at the time we couldn’t give survivor benefits to the families of our fallen troops is a gigantic black mark on the DOD and their Commander in Chief.

October 25, 2013 at 4:43 p.m.
yddem said...

Jt6g, etc. -you cannot be more wrong about the Marine Corps story. On the same day Faux News and the other Usual Suspects, Washington Times, NY Post (which initiated the story) were spewing the lie, the Commandant of the Marine Corps said the story is not true! Go the marines.mil and see for yourself. Or, you can continue to allow FN and others to mislead you - never mind, you enjoy it. And you think the Commandant is protecting Obama. How stupid.

Faux News still has the story on it's website (contrary to your lie that Faux News did not lie about Obama) and has not issued a correction, although the story clearly is a lie.

And you now spread a lie that the DOD ordered the Marine Corps to poll members about a unisex "cap", as you incorrectly call it. How preposterous. Only something propounded by your favorite "news" source could be further from the truth. The Corps NEVER considered a unisex cover, only a new cover for the Women Marines.

October 25, 2013 at 5:03 p.m.
yddem said...

Read the official statement of the U.S. Marine Corps for yourself:

Recent headlines in the media have created confusion regarding a Marine Corps uniform item, the male dress cover. Some in the media have implied that the President of the United States directed a change in this dress cover.

Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. James F. Amos said, “the President in no way, shape or form directed the Marine Corps to change our uniform cover.”

While the Marine Corps Uniform Board is currently looking for a new cover, or cap, for female Marines because the current manufacturer is going out of business, there is no intent to change the current male Marine dress cover.A survey released by the Marine Corps Uniform Board eliciting input from Marines in regard to uniform items, sought opinions about the “Dan Daly-style” cover.

Pictures of male Marines wearing this cover were included in the survey material. This is standard practice while conducting surveys. For instance, when the Marine Corps transitioned to the current MARPAT camouflage design several years ago, surveys included a number of proposed cami-patterns and additional uniform options.

“The surveys often contain photo illustrations that portray what a uniform article might look like when worn by a Marine,” Col. Todd S. Desgrosseilliers, Marine Corps Uniform Board president, said. “This is a very standard practice. While there was never any desire or intent to change the male Marine dress cover, the feedback we have received to maintain this iconic cover has been heard, loud and clear. "

Surveys conducted by the Uniform Board serve to inform the commandant, who has the final say on all changes to the Marine Corps uniform.

October 25, 2013 at 5:08 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Makes no sense why they would showcase a male wearing the female cap. No sense.

October 25, 2013 at 5:28 p.m.
yddem said...

NT, I pointed this out to you yesterday, and although you apparently are not capable of understanding, I will try one last time. The cover being worn by the man in the pictures was the style of the cover worn by Marines when two-time winner of the Medal of Honor Sgt Maj Dan Daly was serving, which is commonly called "the Dan Daly-style cover. That is not a "female cap." Geez.

October 25, 2013 at 5:36 p.m.
conservative said...

alprova:

In regards to your challenge to me to refute you I begin with your statement:

“conservative, I have made in that same point about Biblical Scholars and their interpretations of Leviticus at least a dozen times in the past.”

Not much there. However, I will remind you once again that a scholar is just someone who has spent a lot of time on a subject. He can be sincerely wrong about what he writes and he can deliberately lie as well such as those who have an anti Christian bias and are paid to come up with an interpretation at odds with the Bible.

Yes, you have come up with the “Holiness Code” concoction in a vain and foolish and evil effort to refute God when he said:

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” Leviticus 18:22 and “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Leviticus 20:13.

Plain and simple language alprova, the words of God alprova.

Tell me alprova, what do those verses say? How do you interpret them?

October 25, 2013 at 5:45 p.m.
rick1 said...

Ever notice every time there is a scandal or mistake within the Obama Administration the standard response is:

"At no time was The Obama Administration aware of what The Obama Administration was doing."

Synaptobrevin

October 25, 2013 at 5:58 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

yddem said...

Jt6g, etc. -you cannot be more wrong about the Marine Corps story. On the same day Faux News and the other Usual Suspects, Washington Times, NY Post (which initiated the story) were spewing the lie, the Commandant of the Marine Corps said the story is not true!

**You're welcome to post a link to where there is a direct quote from the Commandant of the Marine Corps. All of my information came from the official Marine Corp web site and Marine Times.

Go the marines.mil and see for yourself. Or, you can continue to allow FN and others to mislead you - never mind, you enjoy it.

I did not rely on any generally civilian news sources for my info.

And you think the Commandant is protecting Obama. How stupid.

You are also welcome to post where I said so.

Faux News still has the story on it's website (contrary to your lie that Faux News did not lie about Obama) and has not issued a correction, although the story clearly is a lie.

I stated that I viewed the video that alprova’s link referred to and they made no claim about Obama. If you have a link that shows Fox News and not commentary making the claim that “Obama ordered” this possible change in the Marine “cover” then list it.

And you now spread a lie that the DOD ordered the Marine Corps to poll members about a unisex "cap", as you incorrectly call it. How preposterous. Only something propounded by your favorite "news" source could be further from the truth. The Corps NEVER considered a unisex cover, only a new cover for the Women Marines.

Then why are active duty Marines saying they were polled about this issue and rejected it out of hand. Sorry but you're wrong, lying or senile “Gunny” old boy and I say the latter.

October 25, 2013 at 6:06 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Yddem: Bulletin. I don't hang on your every word.

October 25, 2013 at 6:13 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

yddem said...

NT, I pointed this out to you yesterday, and although you apparently are not capable of understanding, I will try one last time. The cover being worn by the man in the pictures was the style of the cover worn by Marines when two-time winner of the Medal of Honor Sgt Maj Dan Daly was serving, which is commonly called "the Dan Daly-style cover. That is not a "female cap." Geez.

Here is what the picture shows. The male Marine on the left is wearing the current design for males and the woman that is second from the right is wearing the current design for women. The desire for a unisex “cover” is shown in the other two members pictured. The Marines suggested three options. Redesign the female cover to reflect the current male design which is shown on the female second from the left Redesign the male cover to reflect the current female design which is shown on the male to the right. The third option and the one the members want is stay as is. Women only make up 6% of the corp so if they must change it would be cost effective to redesign the woman's cover to reflect the male version.

Is that simple enough for you? ... Gunny

October 25, 2013 at 6:23 p.m.
yddem said...

You, sir, are a moron. The marine.mil posting, which I copied above, quotes the Commandant, and you are now welcome to read it, rather than claim you relied on it, which quite clearly you did not. And the Faux News web site STILL has the posting about Obama ordering the Marine Corps, etc. Yours was a lie by omission. You also did not attempt to justify your lie that the DOD ordered the poll, which you must have learned from a "civilian source," as neither the Marine Corps nor the DOD has published any such drivel. And I was not a Gunny, but I am not offended, rather I am flattered by the title. I already know your title.

October 25, 2013 at 6:24 p.m.
yddem said...

You continue the idiotic lie of a unisex cover. Their is absolutely no military source to support the claim. Stick with the Usual Suspects, they are the ones you like. Stupid.

October 25, 2013 at 6:27 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Yddem: You're getting all wadded up about not much.

October 25, 2013 at 6:33 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

yddem said...

“...there is no intent to change the current male Marine dress cover.A survey released by the Marine Corps Uniform Board eliciting input from Marines in regard to uniform items, sought opinions about the “Dan Daly-style” cover.”

Why was the Corp members’ option sought about the “Dan Daly-style” cover unless there was some likelihood they were thinking in those terms? That the almost unanimous blowback from the troops has them covering their a%%es? Even if they do change the woman's’ cover to reflect the current male design they will be switching to a unisex design that you claimed they were not going to do. Got that Gunny?

October 25, 2013 at 6:45 p.m.
conservative said...

alprova:

In regards to your challenge to me to refute you I begin with your statement:

“conservative, I have made in that same point about Biblical Scholars and their interpretations of Leviticus at least a dozen times in the past.”

Not much there. However, I will remind you once again that a scholar is just someone who has spent a lot of time on a subject. He can be sincerely wrong about what he writes and he can deliberately lie as well such as those who have an anti Christian bias and are paid to come up with an interpretation at odds with the Bible.

Yes, you have come up with the “Holiness Code” concoction in a vain and foolish and evil effort to refute God when he said:

“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” Leviticus 18:22 and “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Leviticus 20:13.

Plain and simple language alprova, the words of God alprova.

Tell me alprova, what do those verses say? How do you interpret them?

October 25, 2013 at 7:07 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

So many people believe that she uttered those words on the House floor, which simply is not true and it never has been.

I know, I saw the interview and I heard all the crap she was spouting off and talking to people like they were 6 years old with that fake plastic smile. There are very few people I really don't like and she is one I can't stand. You have never heard me say I disliked the president I just don't think he is a good one. I hope he has somebody's ass for trotting him out in front of people promising the web site would work and all they would be able to do come 10/1/13. He has to have intelligent advisers and trust them to keep him from stepping on a duck like that. Hello, people think he is supposed to know about a shooting down town or a robbery in small town AL.

October 25, 2013 at 7:08 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

yddem said...

The marine.mil posting, which I copied above, quotes the Commandant, and you are now welcome to read it, rather than claim you relied on it, which quite clearly you did not.

This all they quoted “Commandant of the Marine Corps Gen. James F. Amos said, “the President in no way, shape or form directed the Marine Corps to change our uniform cover.” I have made no claim that Obama ordered any of this and you have yet to post a link to Fox News that claims that. The Commandant was not quoted on the cover.

And the Faux News web site STILL has the posting about Obama ordering the Marine Corps, etc.

Link?

Yours was a lie by omission. You also did not attempt to justify your lie that the DOD ordered the poll, which you must have learned from a "civilian source," as neither the Marine Corps nor the DOD has published any such drivel.

From the Marine Times:

The Marine Corps Uniform Board may recommend the adoption of a universal cover for men and women to be worn with dress and service uniforms.

The change could take one of two forms. Either women could begin wearing current male covers with slight modifications, or all Marines could begin wearing new “Dan Daly caps,” according to a Marine news release.

To gather feedback from both active duty and Reserve Marines, the Uniform Board distributed a survey across the Corps via sergeant majors that will run through Friday. The board will convene Oct. 29 and take the survey results into consideration, although they are not binding.

The movement to make female uniforms more similar to those worn by men (In all services- Jt) comes as the Defense Department begins to open more roles in combat units to women.

Most recently, women at Marine Barracks Washington conducted a field test in which they wore male covers and dress blue uniforms with Mandarin collars rather than lapels. The results of those tests were not immediately available, however Marine Corps Times readers — men and women — voiced strong opposition.

Of the roughly 300 readers surveyed, 92 percent were opposed to the changes. Among the women who responded 79 percent were opposed. Among men, opposition rose to 94 percent.

And I was not a Gunny, but I am not offended, rather I am flattered by the title. I already know your title.

You obviously don’t understand sarcasm either.

October 25, 2013 at 7:14 p.m.
yddem said...

U R A BUFFOON.

October 26, 2013 at 5:57 p.m.
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