Chattanooga Times Free Press entertainment reporter Casey Phillips spoke with Josh Erwin, co-founder of the new Athens, Ga.-based alt-folk duo Sans Abri, about distinguishing Sans Abri from his work with The Packway Handle Band and the flexibility of playing as a duo.
CP: Why did you and Michael (Paynter) decide to start this new group? Were things not going well in Packway Handle?
JE: No, no, no. Everything is going completely fine with Packway. Actually, Packway has a new booking agent we started working with in January. Things are going really well with Packway.
The Sans Abri project is something Michael and I decided to do on our own. We had songs that didn't necessarily fit the M.O. of Packway, as far as adding it into the set and making it something Packway does on stage. We can enjoy the songs we've written, so this was finding an outlet for them. We got together and he had four or five and I had four or five, so we arranged them in a set.
The idea is it's him and I. We're still working toward making the most noise we can with two guys. It's not necessarily the noisiest music, but we're trying to fill up the sonic spectrum as much as possible between the two of us. That's where we're at.
CP: When did the group start gigging? How many shows have you played since then?
JE: The first time we did it as just him and I was in Atlanta last November. It was before we had come up with the concept. There's a group called the ATL Collective or Atlanta Collective. They'll pick a classic album and invite some of their friends or some bands from around mostly Atlanta, but somehow we got in contact with them.
They asked us to be part of the John Prine album they were going to do a show around in November. It was the self-titled album. Packway wasn't able to do it as the entire lineup, but I asked Michael if he was interested, and he said, "Yeah," so we arranged a couple of songs, and it was a lot of fun. After that, we chatted and thought it would be cool. That's when the whole idea started.
Then, Michael and I did the first Sans Abri show with our original songs in mid-December at Eddie's Attic in Decatur, Ga. We've done Eddie's Attic a couple times since then, and we've played Athens a couple times since then. We're basing when we're playing around Packway's touring schedule. It's an "in-conjunction" thing.
CP: Have you given any thought to opening for Packway as Sans Abri?
JE: Yeah, we're actually trying that in a couple of weeks. We have a show in Columbus, Ga. There's a club there called The Loft, and Packway has played there for years. We were looking for an opener, so we thought we'd try [Sans Abri]. Andrew has an entirely separate project he's working on, so he's on there, too. It's a showcase of the entire spectrum of all the people in Packway.
CP: Did these songs you're singing as Sans Abri come out of a single period of prolific writing or had they been building up for a while?
JE: It had kind of been building up for a while. We've tried arranging them in Packway. We don't necessarily have an alternate ego name, but we do have an entirely electric set with drums and keyboards and stuff. Some of these songs we tried with the electric setup, but it didn't translate to the single-mike setup we typically use.
The songs are still good. It really was a matter of everyone feeling like there was a good spot for them to fill to make the song to work out more than anyone not getting along with the song. We wanted to keep with the identity of Packway.
First of all, it's only the two of us, and that's an entirely different dynamic of performing and arranging with one other person. You take more notice of what you're doing, sound wise, and what the other person is doing as well. You pay more attention to what's going on because you can't hide behind someone else's volume, which I totally catch myself doing. That's something we learned recording and making albums in Packway. You listen to yourself, and you go, "Holy crap, I've been doing that for a year." You're finally analyzing what's going on.
This has become almost a faster way to see what's going on. We're really paying close attention to how we're performing these things and what role the mandolin is going to play and what role my guitar is going to play and how we're going to use the percussion loop we created.
And harmonies, We've always really enjoyed singing in Packway and creating harmonies, so that was another area we were happy about, to perform together and use his and my harmony. It's always fun arranging that stuff for me, and I know Michael enjoys it as well.
CP: How much material have you worked up so far?
JE: As far as original stuff, it's 1 hour 15 minutes. We have 12 or 15 songs between the two of us. A couple of weeks ago, someone thought they had contacted Packway to do this stripped down set, but there was this huge communication break down. It worked out to where Michael and I were available to do it. This was like 5 o'clock the day before. We were like, "Yeah, sure. We think we can do it. We'll play as much as we can, and we'll add more music, if we have to."
We played, and then we were adding in all the covers we knew and then we were even throwing in some bluegrass stuff. That was a lot of fun. It didn't turn into a bluegrass jam like at a festival where it's like, "Hey, let's try this one."
It reminded me a bit of where you're really paying a lot more attention to what you're actually playing and how you're playing to accompany the other person. It was fun, and it made us sit back and realize that if we had to fill a lot of time, we could do it because we have a lot of songs both of us know, just bluegrass stuff from Packway.
It's pretty interesting and gratifying to play with someone who learned these songs, these bluegrass standard songs, at the same time I did. He and I were both working out how to make harmonies work together at the same time when all this was new. I didn't sing before Packway, and I know Michael didn't really, either. The use of harmonies and vocals in general was a brand new thing to all of us back when Packway was getting started back in 2001.
CP: Has Sans Abri developed its own identity or do you get the feeling people still see it as a stripped-down version of Packway?
JE: Well, we're trying to balance it out so it will be a separate thing. It's pretty new. We're four months into it, and we've been spreading the word around and playing a little bit here and there. The more we play out, the more people are going to see it as something different.
It's not necessarily a side project. It is its own thing, but it's obvious that we do come from the Packway Handle Band. I hope it does come across as being a separate thing so it's not just people thinking they're getting some watered-down, stripped-down version that the three other guys from Packway couldn't make it to. The stuff we're playing expresses that, too. We're not playing the same songs from Packway in our sets (as Sans Abri).
CP: You and Michael are the sole members of this group. What's the distribution of songwriting duties like? Do you both write? What about vocals?
JE: Yeah, and that's definitely how it started and will probably be how it will continue. For some of the songs, they've been around for a while, but we never got to the point where we could sit down and arrange them in the way Michael and I have recently been able to. Some of the songs, like "A Pill a Day," Michael has had for a year or two, and he knows it better than I do. It comes across better with him singing it because of that. It doesn't necessarily mean I would write something and have him sing it, but for now, even with newer songs that are coming up, it's still kind of building and seeing what songs are going to work best with which vocalist. With new songs, we'll probably stick with, "I'll sing this one. What do you think for the harmony part? Can you add something on top of this?" Whoever's voice will fit better for it is definitely how it goes. For now, it will stick with singing whatever I write and Michael singing whatever he writes.
CP: Do you feel more flexibility playing as a duo?
JE: Yeah, I guess there is. That's definitely the case. Having just one other person to play with and create with, you have a lot more flexibility. First of all, you're dealing with just two people learning a song, which has a lower learning curve. If we're learning a song one way, it still takes playing it 20 or 50 times, not necessarily all on that one day, to understand how the song is sounding the way you're playing it. Sometimes, it takes time to realize that you're not playing it the way you should be. There's some flexibility there.
Because it's two people, hearing the way things are being played, in some ways, it's easier to hear where the song is going, what is being produced and where it will go if you change something. It's almost like it's a more apparent since that's all that's being produced sonically.
CP: Is it harder to keep people engaged as a duo?
JE: There haven't been that many times up on stage with just him and I doing that, but one of the things that does make it a unique, cool thing when it's just two people sitting up there is with movement around the stage.
In Packway, Michael and I are centered around the central mike stand. That's a show in itself, having five guys cramped around a tiny pole on stage. That's one of the things we really enjoy on Packway. Having Micahel and I on acoustic guitar and mandolin, we have this room to move around, if we want to, since we're plugged in. We have a dynamic mike in front of our face, so if we need to sing, we can stand there and sing, but other than that, we can move around the stage.
Being able to move around, if Michael is singing, I can get right next to him, just to give some sort of movement so it's not just a stagnant thing with one guy hanging out there chucking along on the mandolin and me on the other side staring at the crowd like in "A Mighty Wind." We're trying not to portray "A Mighty Wind," I suppose.
There's more movement going around and not worrying if my guitar isn't facing right in the middle of the mike we use in Packway. That affects the way we play our instruments, too. Plugging in, we're not having to worry as much if the sound is coming across. That's cool.
CP: What do you get out of playing with this group that you didn't get from Packway? Is it just getting to sing songs you wouldn't otherwise get to sing?
JE: That's definitely one of the things, but it's also that we're opening up into a broader genre, where it's not as bluegrass-associated. We've found there's a stigma associated with bluegrass in some instances. If you talk to someone and mention bluegrass, the first thing they think of is old dude in suits hanging out at country fairs with people in lawn chairs with gray hair.
Even if Packway isn't necessarily a straightforward bluegrass band, it's still associated with it. We're opening up to a different genre. It's still in an Americana genre, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but that's something that's interesting and fun to feel like we're a part of.
The other thing is being louder and not having to worry about volume and not physically having to play as hard on your instrument. We're not necessarily having to hack as hard as we have to do when we're around a single mike. That's really gratifying. Even if it's a slower song or a softer song, I'm not having to go up there and pluck the crap out of the string to get a sound to come across.
In some ways, it's a freedom to be away from the straight bluegrass thing.
CP: What are your thoughts as you take Sans Abri out of state for the first time for your gig at JJ's Bohemia?
JE: I'm really excited. I keep looking for more spots to keep filling. Packway has played JJ's Bohemia one time before with a band called Gerle Haggard. It was cool playing with them. The JJ's venue was awesome, and we've been wanting to get back there. This was a good excuse to get back up there and see John [Shoemaker] again and try the room out again.
Chattanooga being so close, it just seems like a good spot, as far as touring logistics, but it's a cool city, too. We're excited.
CP: Do you guys have plans for an album?
JE: Yeah, we're definitely going to record something. It's a matter of making sure we've got everything sounding the way we want it, too. It's already come a lot further a lot faster than I expected to. It's a matter of that and putting money together and setting time aside in the middle of all the other stuff we have going on.