I'd like to pose a question to those out there who argue in favor of moral absolutes, particularly those found in the Bible.
If the word "absolute" is taken to mean "without exception", which seems to be an appropriate definition, given the topic. Then God's moral values would allow of no exceptions.
For example, I tell my girlfriend she looks good in her new dress in order to spare her feelings (because I think it makes her look fat)...this is a sin?
Maybe a more serious example, I intentionally shoot and kill a man because I believe he is about to harm a group of innocent children...was that murder a sin?
If, in fact, there are moral absolutes then it stands to reason that they cannot allow for exceptions, but if on the other hand, it is permissible to make a "judgement call", and lie or kill if it serves what we perceive as the "greater good", then have "absolutes" vanished..isn't everything relative to one extent or another?
A second point, the Bible doesn't hedge on God's laws or moral values, there are no commandments which say "Thou shalt not xyz, unless of course...blah blah blah". So if Christians DO allow for making moral judgement calls, on what basis do they justify it?
Couldn't care less if you think it's true or not, nor was there any "chest-thumping" involved, just saying that I have been there and was not speaking as an arm-chair quarterback.
Excellent response! I spent 10 years in the military, saved more than a few lives and put my own life at risk more than once to help someone else.
It's a sad commentary on our society that words like 'hero' or 'valor' are used, as you pointed out, to romanticize the notion of war.
If you want to honor those who serve in the military then stop handing out medals and ribbons like so much candy on Halloween. How about providing them free education for life, top quality healthcare for them and their families, hell, a break on taxes after they get out of the service...I can think of lots of ways to honor those who serve besides calling them heroes.
The greatest honor you can pay to those who have fallen of course, would be to not send any more young people into harms way.
We shouldn't be romanticizing the notion of war, it should be a bitter, distasteful and repugnant thing to have to send young people into battle and put their lives in jeopardy.
Old Testament or New, the point is that the same God acted and gave commands.
Wrap it up anyway that you like. Genocide is not moral, neither is ordering someone to kill innocent children neither is rape, yet God (the same one, since there is only one) ordered all of those acts.... covenants and theology aside, it is immoral and psychotic.
Well, maybe we should begin be looking at the Tennessee State Constitution...which says, in part:
ARTICLE IX Disqualifications.
Section 1. Whereas ministers of the Gospel are by their profession, dedicated to God and the care of souls, and ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their functions; therefore, no minister of the Gospel, or priest of any denomination whatever, shall be eligible to a seat in either House of the Legislature.
Section 2. No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.
Let's flip the question a bit shall we, where is it written that in order to pray it must be done in a public manner? Why can't each person pray (or not) quietly and and without making a public show of it.
Certainly if God exists, prayers uttered quietly and privately are just as easily heard and answered.
Which leaves us with the question of WHY a group would insist on praying out loud, to be seen by others...help my poor memory but didn't Jesus himself have something to say on that matter?
The point is not that an atheist might be "offended", but rather that it makes it appear that there is a necessary connection between a government function and a particular religion. What would a meeting look like if each group had to stop and wait for the next religious group to gather and utter some public prayer before the session could begin?
Want to pray? Do you think it will help? As an atheist I fully support your right to say whatever prayer you like...but for the sake of process, appearance and to avoid offending others (something no Christian should want to do anyway!), say your prayers silently, to your God or Gods, take a quiet moment of meditation, or grab a new slice of gum, whatever makes you happy, but please, as Jesus said, "...enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly".
Let me set your mind at ease. I spent 20 years as a born again Christian (prior to the most recent 25 as an atheist) and used most of my time in the study of apologetics. I know my bible and I've been around long enough to have heard (and used) most of the arguments presented in support of God and I haven't seen one valid supporting argument for God yet.
Sometimes it's difficult to tell the charlatans from the trolls from the genuinely ignorant.
Betty, I'm going out on a limb here and giving you the benefit of the doubt and I'm going to assume that you fall into the ignorant category.
Since you want everyone to get in line and follow God's commandments can you do at least 2 things for me.
First, give me at least ONE piece of evidence for the existence of God. Make sure it is objective and that there isn't a more plausible natural explanation.
Second, if your first piece of evidence works out, then explain to me why that should translate into worship. In other words on what, if any, basis should one being worship and be subservient to another? Even if there is an all powerful God, so what! On what basis am I obligated to enter into a master-slave relationship?
Cook: Parents crying for help
Apparently God isn't listening to those pre-meeting prayers.
Obama's victory was astounding and other letters to the editors
Did you know that a presidential candidate can win the election with as little as 22% of the popular vote. Now wouldn't that be an election to watch!
'Do we really want to obey biblical law?' and more Letters to the Editors
I'd like to pose a question to those out there who argue in favor of moral absolutes, particularly those found in the Bible.
If the word "absolute" is taken to mean "without exception", which seems to be an appropriate definition, given the topic. Then God's moral values would allow of no exceptions.
For example, I tell my girlfriend she looks good in her new dress in order to spare her feelings (because I think it makes her look fat)...this is a sin?
Maybe a more serious example, I intentionally shoot and kill a man because I believe he is about to harm a group of innocent children...was that murder a sin?
If, in fact, there are moral absolutes then it stands to reason that they cannot allow for exceptions, but if on the other hand, it is permissible to make a "judgement call", and lie or kill if it serves what we perceive as the "greater good", then have "absolutes" vanished..isn't everything relative to one extent or another?
A second point, the Bible doesn't hedge on God's laws or moral values, there are no commandments which say "Thou shalt not xyz, unless of course...blah blah blah". So if Christians DO allow for making moral judgement calls, on what basis do they justify it?
Just some thoughts
The word is 'disgraceful'
Tu,
Couldn't care less if you think it's true or not, nor was there any "chest-thumping" involved, just saying that I have been there and was not speaking as an arm-chair quarterback.
The word is 'disgraceful'
Happy,
Excellent response! I spent 10 years in the military, saved more than a few lives and put my own life at risk more than once to help someone else.
It's a sad commentary on our society that words like 'hero' or 'valor' are used, as you pointed out, to romanticize the notion of war.
If you want to honor those who serve in the military then stop handing out medals and ribbons like so much candy on Halloween. How about providing them free education for life, top quality healthcare for them and their families, hell, a break on taxes after they get out of the service...I can think of lots of ways to honor those who serve besides calling them heroes.
The greatest honor you can pay to those who have fallen of course, would be to not send any more young people into harms way.
We shouldn't be romanticizing the notion of war, it should be a bitter, distasteful and repugnant thing to have to send young people into battle and put their lives in jeopardy.
'Do we really want to obey biblical law?' and more Letters to the Editors
Old Testament or New, the point is that the same God acted and gave commands.
Wrap it up anyway that you like. Genocide is not moral, neither is ordering someone to kill innocent children neither is rape, yet God (the same one, since there is only one) ordered all of those acts.... covenants and theology aside, it is immoral and psychotic.
Ken Orr isn't the loony one, his God is.
Public prayer and the law
Well, maybe we should begin be looking at the Tennessee State Constitution...which says, in part:
ARTICLE IX Disqualifications.
Section 1. Whereas ministers of the Gospel are by their profession, dedicated to God and the care of souls, and ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their functions; therefore, no minister of the Gospel, or priest of any denomination whatever, shall be eligible to a seat in either House of the Legislature.
Section 2. No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.
Public prayer and the law
Let's flip the question a bit shall we, where is it written that in order to pray it must be done in a public manner? Why can't each person pray (or not) quietly and and without making a public show of it.
Certainly if God exists, prayers uttered quietly and privately are just as easily heard and answered.
Which leaves us with the question of WHY a group would insist on praying out loud, to be seen by others...help my poor memory but didn't Jesus himself have something to say on that matter?
The point is not that an atheist might be "offended", but rather that it makes it appear that there is a necessary connection between a government function and a particular religion. What would a meeting look like if each group had to stop and wait for the next religious group to gather and utter some public prayer before the session could begin?
Want to pray? Do you think it will help? As an atheist I fully support your right to say whatever prayer you like...but for the sake of process, appearance and to avoid offending others (something no Christian should want to do anyway!), say your prayers silently, to your God or Gods, take a quiet moment of meditation, or grab a new slice of gum, whatever makes you happy, but please, as Jesus said, "...enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly".
'God's word being ignored' and other letters to the editor
Livn4life,
Let me set your mind at ease. I spent 20 years as a born again Christian (prior to the most recent 25 as an atheist) and used most of my time in the study of apologetics. I know my bible and I've been around long enough to have heard (and used) most of the arguments presented in support of God and I haven't seen one valid supporting argument for God yet.
'God's word being ignored' and other letters to the editor
Sometimes it's difficult to tell the charlatans from the trolls from the genuinely ignorant.
Betty, I'm going out on a limb here and giving you the benefit of the doubt and I'm going to assume that you fall into the ignorant category.
Since you want everyone to get in line and follow God's commandments can you do at least 2 things for me.
First, give me at least ONE piece of evidence for the existence of God. Make sure it is objective and that there isn't a more plausible natural explanation.
Second, if your first piece of evidence works out, then explain to me why that should translate into worship. In other words on what, if any, basis should one being worship and be subservient to another? Even if there is an all powerful God, so what! On what basis am I obligated to enter into a master-slave relationship?