published Thursday, October 21st, 2010

Prayer at school events silenced


by Kelli Gauthier

Jim Scales knew it was only a matter of time before someone complained about prayers said aloud at school-sponsored sporting events.

The Hamilton County Schools superintendent attends local high school football games regularly and said he's heard prayers over the loudspeaker. He always wondered when someone would protest.

Someone did.

After receiving a letter of complaint from the Freedom from Religion Foundation this week on behalf of students from Soddy-Daisy High School, Scales sent an e-mail to all local principals on Tuesday, saying the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled prayer before football games and graduation ceremonies to be unconstitutional and that the practices should be stopped.

"But things are handled a little differently in different areas of the country," Scales said. "This does not need to be something that divides our community. None of the school cases that have been litigated are designed to keep anyone from praying or exercising their religious freedom."

Scales said he received plenty of feedback Wednesday, mostly from people upset over the public prayer ban.

"I would [expect] that because it's a part of the culture here, it's a part of the landscape," he said. "That's probably one of the reasons it has not been addressed publicly by the school administration or the school board in the past, because it was so widely accepted. No one exercised the right to protest.

"Now that it has happened, we all know what the laws are, so we have to make sure we're doing what's right," he said.

Annie Laurie Gaylor, director and co-president of the Wisconsin-based foundation, said she would pass on information of Scales' action to the students the foundation has been in contact with at Soddy-Daisy High.

"We're delighted. That's very appropriate. That's what we hoped would happen," she said.

She said her organization would continue to monitor Hamilton County Schools, watching for potential First Amendment violations.

Hamilton County Board of Education member Rhonda Thurman, who supports the idea of students praying publicly, suggested that if school-sponsored public prayer is such a problem, maybe the community should hold a fundraiser for a public address system.

"We'll just have to have the students do the prayer, and I guess we'll just have to buy the kids their own PA system," she said.

Hedy Weinberg, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Tennessee, said those most passionate about allowing school-sanctioned prayer are the very ones who should be fighting to keep government out of religion.

"Our founders were well aware that, without limits set on government, individuals would lose the freedoms they came for when then settled in this country," she said. "While [public prayer] might seem harmless ... it really is tacit approval for government to determine what prayer is acceptable.

"The response from the audience would be very different if the prayer was being said by a leader they didn't support," she said. "One's religious faith is so personal."



Click here to vote in our daily poll: Was Superintendent Jim Scales' decision to stop the act of public prayer over loudspeakers correct?



Continue reading by following these links to related stories:

Article: Soddy-Daisy High to stop prayers over loudspeaker

Article: National group demands end to prayers at Soddy-Daisy High

about Kelli Gauthier...

Kelli Gauthier covers K-12 education in Hamilton County for the Times Free Press. She started at the paper as an intern in 2006, crisscrossing the region writing feature stories from Pikeville, Tenn., to Lafayette, Ga. She also covered crime and courts before taking over the education beat in 2007. A native of Frederick, Md., Kelli came south to attend Southern Adventist University in Collegedale, where she earned a bachelor’s degree in print journalism. Before newspapers, ...

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slr3 said...

Another example of the sad state of our country. We , as a people, will pay.

October 21, 2010 at 6:27 a.m.
phrasewrite said...

Those of us who are Christians should walk our talk as well as be respectful of the non-biblical guideline of the Golden Rule. We should do unto others as we would have them do unto us. And breaking the law in order to show off our beliefs or impose those beliefs on others definitely goes against what is right.

We do not need, nor have the right, to announce a Jesus-based prayer across a loud speaker in order to behave in a moral manner on the football field and in the grandstands. In fact it has a Pharisee-type of theatrics to it.

So instead, the loudspeaker announcer could simply remind everyone to respect each other, have fun and enjoy the game - treating it as just what it is: a game.

October 21, 2010 at 7:25 a.m.
rosebud said...

You know, if all you people who are so worked up over this would actually visit a school, make a donation, or volunteer to help, you might actually help solve some problems.

It's funny how people who have absolutely zero interest in schools or children wake up whenever one of these bizarre little controversies pop up (last year LFO, this year Soddy-Daisy).

It will blow over in a few days, and y'all can go back to worrying about "Dancing With The Stars."

October 21, 2010 at 7:35 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

Amazing jump.. around 8:14 the tally was Yes 180 No 128 then at 8:18 the tally was Yes 183 No 535

Seems my coworker has been busy.

On my way to my workstation this morning, I noticed one of the xstains I work with, attempting to refresh a webpage and getting an error.

I asked if there was another access problem and if she had dialed the help line, and she said her "friend" had shown her how to do multiple votes.

She was more than willing to educate me in some attempt at enlisting me for the task.

Using internet explorer, after the initial vote, you'll see the results page with the "Thanks for you vote". Press the F5 key to refresh... then press Retry when the error window pops up "The page cannot be refreshed..." Another vote will tally.

She was quickly going through the process pressing F5 then Enter, a two key re-vote since the retry was the default choice.

To C - Not everyone is a christain and not everyone agrees with your cheating xstain ways.

The tally is Yes 199 No 586 as I'm finishing this note. No I didn't refresh and do a re-vote. I clicked the "see results without voting" link. One person one vote works fine for me. I guess it's not good enough for a republics liar for jesus.

Back to training.

October 21, 2010 at 8:43 a.m.
ordinaryguy said...

This is completely insane...any idiot realizes there is NO mention of the separation of church and state in the consitution...the ammendment was designed to forbid the formation of a "state" church as was the case in England...Congress begins EVERY session with prayer...money says "In God We Trust"...NFL, NASCAR, and college football games all have an invocation...The group responsible for this will only target school systems because they know spineless people are in charge...Scales is gutless, along with the fact he is incompetent (JUST LISTEN TO HIM, HE IS CLUELESS)...The ones of you are yelling the loudest to stop the prayers are the same ones that will scream out "God Save Me" when fear grips you...

October 21, 2010 at 9:27 a.m.
theyouthcampguy said...

Wake UP!!!! Too many Americans are Constituionally illiterate and it's time for people that understand what this country was originally founded on to take a stand. This is not an issue of "seperation" this great country was founded on Biblical Principles, for years it paid for the printing of Bibles and the Missionaries needed to pass them out. Those of you that want to live in a godless, pegan society can catch the next plane to a country with no moral standards or laws anytime you want, that's what's great about America, but leave our country alone. The problem is it all starts with ending prayer before a football game and the next thing you know they'll be wanting to put an end to the nativity or saying "Merry Christmas" in your town. This is worth fighting for, don't back down!

October 21, 2010 at 9:53 a.m.

The funny thing to me is that he admits that they knew that this has been deemed unconstitutional, but yet they chose to wait til someone complained about it to do anything... And to Mrs Thurman bad news as long as the students are on school property you will still be in violation of the ruling. Even if the students had a loud speaker of their own, because guess what your on school property. Just hold the prayers off of the school property plain and simple, and this will be a non issue. I hate that this has happened, but until we can support every religion equally there will always be this issue.

October 21, 2010 at 10:18 a.m.
Yano said...

We can see from the rants of the two "guys" on here that the real reason in their minds for government-sponsored prayer is to impose their religious beliefs onto others. Where does that leave MY freedom of religion?

How much more obvious could it be that they want to "establish" their version of Christianity as the official religion for us all, and to kick out anyone different from themselves?

And by the way, NASCAR is not a government body, although it is a religion for some people.

October 21, 2010 at 10:21 a.m.
Leaf said...

Chattanooga is the only place I've lived where you can almost guarantee that within five minutes of meeting someone they will ask you what church you go to. There is definite discrimination against those who reply "none." Even drunken redneck dropouts look down on atheists around here.

October 21, 2010 at 11:55 a.m.
CP7768 said...

The Supreme Court already outlawed this practice 10 years ago in Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe. It might have been tradition in the area but as of 2000, but it was an illegal tradition. It's time for Soddy to catch up with the 21st century. These kids are standing up for what is legal and trying to strike down that which is illegal. There is no grey area here, it is clearly unlawful in black and white terms.

October 21, 2010 at 1:04 p.m.
junepop55 said...

youthcampguy - So I'm to understand you to say that tax payer supported prayer is only acceptable if it is Christian. So you're okay with any school led religious prayer as long as it is based on "Biblical Principles"? You'd have no problem with a visiting team from Hollywood, Alabama leading everyone in a prayer that involved the handling of snakes, as long as they read the passages from the bible that seem to support it? If you have a problem with that scenario, then you're advocating one form of Christianity over another and hopefully you're starting to see the problem of the state being involved in sponsoring religion of any sort. . .

Ironic use of the word "illiterate" in a post riddled with spelling errors, by the way. . .

October 21, 2010 at 1:06 p.m.
ibshame said...

It's amazing just how some "Christians" in these parts can become obsessed with someone who demands they follow the law when it comes to prayer at tax-payer sponsored school athletic events on public school property but then some of these same "Christians" have no problem racing to try to stop the building of a Mosque on PRIVATE PROPERTY where the members of the Mosque can pray INSIDE and not over a loud speaker. Is it any wonder comedians like Bill Maher make fun of the hypocrisy of some so-called "Christians?"

October 21, 2010 at 1:22 p.m.
hrtofluv said...

Dr. Scales - you must have no backbone to jump on board with a decision that quickly. Are you scared of a lawsuit? Do you realize that you have shown the fear and now every little thing is going to be changed with the threat of a lawsuit? Why not consider the "democracy" of a vote? I hope you are not asking ALL schools to do away with something when no one asked.
Yes - Soddy Daisy has some concerns to deal with on their own. But let Soddy Daisy determine their course of action and leave the rest of the schools alone. If no one steps up with the same action from each school, then that school should have their right to freedom of speech.

October 21, 2010 at 1:48 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Hrtofluv, You would rather have Dr. Scales pursue an unlawful policy that will inevitability lead to an unsuccessful result for the school district that using your tax dollars? You fail to address the glaring illegalities of these actions. This is not a matter of democracy. We do not live in a democracy, we live a republic. There is a clear difference between the two. This is a matter of following the law. There are no grey areas here.

October 21, 2010 at 1:59 p.m.
acerigger said...

Campguy(and others), if you want to live in a country where religious views are the basis for every govt.edict or law,where you MUST pray every day,please consider moving to SAUDI ARABIA or some other country in the middle east. Oh, and be sure to keep an eye out for the Morals Police!

October 21, 2010 at 2:21 p.m.
sanethinker said...

What do we know about the Freedom From Religion Foundation? It was founded in 1978 by Anne Nicol Gaylor and the current co-president is Annie Laurie Gaylor. Apparently, the FFRF is the Gaylor family business. According to their 2007 IRS filing they are a non-profit educational group with $5.5 Million in the bank and an annual income in excess of $500,000 a year. Championing the cause of atheists these days is extremely lucrative. Certainly Christipher Hitchins and others have made a good living from their congregations.

October 21, 2010 at 3:29 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Sane Thinker, What is your point? Nearly all religions take money for their coffers. Are you saying that the FFRF is some evil atheist organization because they have a large bankroll? They are an organization that acts as a check on the government when they cross boundaries concerning religion.

October 21, 2010 at 3:44 p.m.
librul said...

The difference between the FFRF and your local megachurch is that the FFRF is trying to protect everyone's right to believe what they choose and the megachurch is trying to choose what everyone can believe.

October 21, 2010 at 4:18 p.m.
HiDef said...

sanethinker - When Joyce Meyers spoke in Chattanooga, she flew in on her own Gulfstream IV (N7JM). They run about $40 million. Her annual salary has never been disclosed, but is estimated to be in the $500,000-$1,000,000 range. She is just one person and she is supposedly doing "God's work". The amount that James Dobson, Joyce Meyers et al rake in, in the name of Christianity nonetheless, PALES in comparison to any atheist or atheist foundation, so put your rocks down and go back into your glass house.

October 21, 2010 at 4:20 p.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

I think Jim Scales needs to stand up against this....Soddy Daisy High Students do not need to be with out God in there life, especially with the way the world has become now days. I think that it needs to be more and more in schools then ever. I also think that the person or persons who was sorry enough to do this needs to be man or woman enough to stand up and admit it... I don't think that one or two people should have the right to band it from everyone else. I also don't think that a place in another state should be able to tell us what we can do in our own state. The Atheist group that has sent this to our school board, needs to stay out of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They don't even live in the state of Tennessee. So what right do they really have here..

October 21, 2010 at 4:23 p.m.
Lefty said...

Where to begin?
"Soddy Daisy High Students do not need to be with out God in there life,"
What about in here life?

"I don't think that one or two people should have the right to band it from everyone else." But what if it's a really good band, like the Beatles? Would a rubber band be ok? How about a marching band?

"I also don't think that a place in another state should be able to tell us what we can do in our own state. The Atheist group that has sent this to our school board, needs to stay out of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Because sometimes you just can't say it with 12 exclamation points.

"They don't even live in the state of Tennessee. So what right do they really have here.." Because we refuse to be a United state, we are our own country.

October 21, 2010 at 4:32 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Ladyhawke123, So you would rather let the prayer continue and spend hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars on litigation that the school district would lose? Does that seem like a prudent use of the district's limited funds? Jurisdiction is not a question here. This issue is raised by students at Soddy who could potentially be represented by attorneys from Wisconsin in Tennessee courts which is perfectly legal.

October 21, 2010 at 4:37 p.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

oops excuse me "ban" happy lefty

October 21, 2010 at 4:45 p.m.
HiDef said...

Ladyhawk- What god was that that you wanted to put in schools? Oh, YOUR god, I see. How thoughtful of you to force your beliefs on my children. Too bad its never gonna happen. Teach your kids whatever religion you want and I'll raise my kids how I see fit. See, when my kids are old enough I will let THEM decide what they want to believe but until then they will be religion free.

October 21, 2010 at 4:53 p.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

Well HiDef, that is perfectly fine. Do what you see fit, all I know is the religion that my family and I believe in is not sending us to HELL when we die! To all you atheist who don't believe in him don't seem to have a problem with spending the money that says in GOD WE TRUST now do you!

October 21, 2010 at 5:37 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Ladyhawke123, It's good to know that we have such tolerant people living in our community. You still have failed to address whether or not you believe your tax dollars should be going towards litigation that the school district will lose. "In God We Trust" is still being litigated in court as to its constitutionality. There could be a day very soon where that will be removed from our currency.

October 21, 2010 at 5:43 p.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

Well everyone, I look at it this way we pay money out everyday on taxes for the people who are sorry enough not to work and live on the money we pay in, so why not fight so to put our money towards the schools and keep pray in them.

October 21, 2010 at 8:42 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ladyhawke, I fail to see how your paying taxes allows you to dictate what religion the rest of us must follow (especially since the rest of us pay taxes too).

October 21, 2010 at 9:07 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Ladyhawke123, Do you enjoy taking your money and lighting it on fire? If the school district pursues this, then that's exactly what they will be doing with your tax dollars. Also, by supporting prayer, you support illegal actions. Do you support teaching unlawfulness to students in the school district?

October 21, 2010 at 9:17 p.m.

Ladyhawke, I am pretty sure after they went to court,and if or when they lose, you would be raising livid hell over the fact that they are spending your tax money. Like I have said I have no issue with Christian prayer, as long as you do it quite and not force it on me. I do take issue with the fact that Christians are always the first ones to throw stones, but yet they always talk about how Christ said: "Let the first one without sin cast the first stone" or something towards that line. Sorry haven't practiced Christianity in almost 10 years so my brain can't remember that far back.

October 21, 2010 at 9:31 p.m.
ITguy said...

Ladyhawke and others,

Do you really believe that we have the power to control God? If we fail to have public prayer at football games, children will not have God in their lives? Really? Is Friday night the only chance that these kid have to pray?

You obviously do not believe in the same God that I believe in, and by the way my God is much more powerful than yours. Can we now all bow our heads...

October 21, 2010 at 10:28 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I ahve to agree with ladyhawke. People keep saying that we are forcing our religion as christians down your throat by praying out loud. well are you not forcing yours down our throat by pitching a fit and having it stopped? You are somply saying you don't like it and since you dont like it it should not be allowed. I am so sick of all this seperation of state and religion stuff. Does anyone have any Idea who funds the football teams? I do. I will tell you it is not the school board. The parents and students raise teh money for the teams. So therefore what right does anyone have in telling us that we can't pray over something that we are the ones that pay for it. The school system does not pay for any of it so therefore their money is not being wasted on anything that they don't agree with. So I say let them pray over the loud speaker. When anyone gets into any situation that they do not like do they not walk away or ingore it? No one can say they don't, so this is the same thing. If you don't like the prayer ignore it or walk away till it is over.

October 22, 2010 at 12:53 a.m.
HiDef said...

sdbandmom - Does anyone have any Idea who funds the football teams?

The boosters don't own the field. Maybe they buy the uniforms or raise money for a new scoreboard but the games are played on school property and that's all that matters. As an aside, I played sports in high school. We never prayed, ever. We were ranked in the top 20 in our sport in our state. We had the usual rash of injuries but nothing major. I also played in the band. We never prayed before a competition and I'm proud to say we won many sweepstakes trophies.

October 22, 2010 at 12:06 p.m.
CP7768 said...

SDBandMom, It does not matter who funds the football team. The games take place on school grounds that are owned by the school district who receives federal tax dollars. If you think you are responsible to no one over this, continue it and watch what happens. The school district will be slapped with a lawsuit as soon as the first word of that prayer is uttered. Do you really think the school district has the time or the resources to try and overturn a landmark Supreme Court decision. If you think so, then use your own money to do it. Don't be selfish and use the community resources of the school district for your own self-grandizing ideas.

October 22, 2010 at 12:34 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

Okay CP7768 do not tell me that I am being selfish becaiuse I am standing up for what I believe in. No one said that the prayer was going to continue did they? I said I didn't like that it was being taken out. I will continue to stand and fight for what I believe. You can say whatever you like but nothing you say will make me change my mind. I really don't care what your opinion is.

HiDef: When I was in school there was a prayer before every gaem and the band always prayed also. That has been a tradition for many years and it should not be stopped.

October 22, 2010 at 10:46 p.m.
hcirehttae said...

"HiDef: When I was in school there was a prayer before every gaem and the band always prayed also. That has been a tradition for many years and it should not be stopped."

When I was in school, all the black kids went to one school and the white kids went to another. Was that a tradition? Yes. Was it right? No.

There are strong ambiguities and valid moral feelings on both sides, but the "tradition" argument is a bunch of nonsense. We're missing an opportunity to show religious tolerance here, on all sides. Would the Christians be willing to rotate a prayer opportunity among Jewish, Muslim, Christian speakers? I doubt it seriously. (Although it probably would still not pass legal muster.)

October 22, 2010 at 10:58 p.m.
HiDef said...

sdbandmom-

You're just grasping at straws now. Tradition, The Constitution, safety of the players, who funds the team, which is it that you want to continue to use as your defense?

October 23, 2010 at 8:12 a.m.
CP7768 said...

SDBandMom, It is selfish when you use my tax dollars for your own means, especially when you know that they are going to be used in a cause that is lost before it even began. You an believe in whatever you want to, but do not use my money to try and support it. Use your own money if you want to take this thing to court. Just because something is a tradition does not make it right. This prayer has been illegal for a decade.

October 23, 2010 at 10:46 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

CP7768 AND HiDef I was reading some of your comments on one of the other articles and I have to say that you must live a pretty boring life to stoop so low as to attack and innocent teenager like sdhs_christian. She is a child and has the right to voice her opinion without being attacked by adults. Grow up and get a life.

October 23, 2010 at 10:34 p.m.
CP7768 said...

SDBandMom, Point out where I "attacked" an "innocent" teenager. So now it's considered "attacking" someone if you challenge someone to answer a question about their beliefs? How do you know I'm not a teenager? Do not assume anything. I am assuming since you have failed to answer my previous questions about funding that you and supporters like you are willing to foot the bill for legal fees if a lawsuit is brought. One final question (that I'm sure you will just sweep away). By supporting the prayer you support an illegal practice. Do you think it's a good lesson to teach these students that even if something is illegal it's perfectly fine because it's tradition?

October 23, 2010 at 10:49 p.m.
CP7768 said...

I also find it funny that you believe teenagers are children. If your children are teenagers, do you let them think for themselves like an adult and face scrutiny for their opinions or do you tell them how they should think, feel, and believe like children?

October 23, 2010 at 10:53 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I let them think for themselves but I also draw the line when an adult is disrespectful to them. If the person is under 18 they are still child and it is the parents responsibility to protect and defend them. You are lucky that was not my child you spoke like that to.

October 23, 2010 at 10:56 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I teach my children to think for themselves and to fight for what they believe. To answer your question about paying the legal fees. I would be willing to do what i could to help but no I would pay them all by myself. I am not made of money. Yes it is considered attacking when an adult just has to make a child feel inferior to the adult and make that child feel like they are stupid because they make Grammar mistakes or type something wrong. Do you not have anything better to do? Haven't you been taught to pick on someone your own size?

October 23, 2010 at 11:01 p.m.

SDBandMom, You must think that every person in sports boosters are also christian... Not so... They support sports. They aren't there to support religion. And like what was said by a few others funding for most of the funding for sports come from the county. The money boosters are just that to give a boost to that funding and assist for any special needs that the school does not cover. This whole thing isn't about who funds what... It is more about the fact that this is going on at a school sponsored event at a government owned location. No one has said you can't pray, they are just saying if you do, don't do it to where it insults others.

October 23, 2010 at 11:14 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

First of all Phantom I never said that every body in sports boosters are christians. I also never said that I believe that either. So do not put words in my mouth. You know what this post is so not even worth my time anymore. I am so tired of arguing with people that will never agree on things. This is pointless. This is accomplishing nothing. Have a nice life.

October 23, 2010 at 11:21 p.m.
HiDef said...

sdbandmom - You have got to be kidding me. Here's a cut and paste of sdhs addressing me since you're to blind to figure this one out yourself:

HiDef, Well today is your lucky day. I don't know who you think you are.? But I am a student at Soddy. I've been attending a baptist church since I was pretty much able too. & I have NO PROBLEM with anyones religion. That's how I've been raised. I don't judge a book by it's cover. But prayer is a major thing in Soddy Daisy. and if you don't want the issue pushed on YOUR kids, mind your own business...

Yes, you're right I attacked her and any defense I may have written was unjust... I'm sorry but if sdhs is a big enough girl to get on the internet and tell others to "mind their own business" she'd better have some thick skin and expect a little heat in return.

"You are lucky that was not my child you spoke like that to."

Seriously?

October 23, 2010 at 11:33 p.m.
CP7768 said...

SDBandMom, Point out to me where I called out SDHS' grammatical errors. I'll save you the time because it never happened. I challenged SDHS on her views and she responds with comments like the one you see above in HiDef's post. What if I spoke to your children like I spoke to SDHS? What if I challenged them on their beliefs? What would you do? Smack me around, yell at me? I welcome that. Then we can go to court and you can experience first hand what will happen to the school district if the prayer continues. I feel sorry for your children because with you protecting them constantly, they will not know how to protect themselves in the real world. You never did address your assumption that I am an adult. You have no idea whether I'm 60 or 14 or somewhere in between.

October 23, 2010 at 11:43 p.m.

But you can infer from your comments that is what you are saying. I re-read your comment just to ensure, and if you read what you said you are pretty much saying that most people on sports boosters are christian if not all because we should allow prayer. Think of it this way lets say you do have a Wiccan on your booster, and they give money for something, are you then going to give them a right to request to hold a Wiccan ritual prior to a game on the school property. By the way how are we forcing our religion upon you? By asking you not to pray? Wrong... Now if I came to you and started to preach about how my God or Goddess helped me, and how you should convert then yes that would be preaching and forcing it upon you. Prayer is just another way to spread the word so to say. We are asking you to respect the fact that we don't perform rituals upon you, so why do you have to pray at a public function like a game? And to be honest, and I know this is going to peve off, but to me a spell is a prayer. So all I am asking of you is the same thing I am asking of myself.

October 23, 2010 at 11:56 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

You know what CP7768 I really don't care how old you are. Leave my kids out of this. Yes I protect them as a parent should and my kids know how to defend themselves in the real world for your information. But I don't have to explain myself and my kids to you so therefore I will just say this, What goes on between me and my kids are none of your business. My kids are a, b students, haven't missed a day of school in 6 years and they are not ashamed to let anyone know what their beliefs are. My kids were raised to be proud that they know God and that Jesus died for their sins. They are also proud to know that they know God as their personal savior and king. So Leave my kids out of this.

October 24, 2010 at midnight
sdbandmom said...

HiDef, I am not too blind to realize anything but I also know that as an adult it is my responsibility to ignore the comments that teenagers make and let them figure out for themselves if they are wrong or not. I also know that I am not to make them feel stupid on a public website by trying to be a teacher and pointing out the grammar errors.

October 24, 2010 at 12:03 a.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

Hidef, that sdhs is a child and let me tell you something she has all right to voice her opinion isn't that what free speech is all about. You how ever are a grown person, she is a child. It is one thing to go off at an adult but it is another to go off on a teenager who yes she did tell you to mind your own business. However she is standing up for what she believes. She stated that she has no problems with other religions,she thinks by what she states is that religion has always been in Soddy Daisy, we are in the middle of the Bible belt as people quote it. She like so many others, have known this tradition for years and years. This is something that most people don't understand. People who are non christian if they don't like it go to another school it has never been kept a secret here in Soddy that we pray! So, why don't all of you atheist start a school of your own and attend it. Don't put yourselves in a school that has no problem with prayer. We here in Soddy Daisy wouldn't care if you built the thing right down the road as long as you don't tell us how not to do something we have done for years. You people think that we argue only when someone brings up the fact of taking things out of school or our rights to post up ten commandments but sit back and think about it, it is the atheist that always start the crap by trying to dictate what us as Christians can do! So, until you are willing to sit back, admit it is your groups fault for pulling this crap then don't argue at us for wanting to protect what we have every right to protect and have known for years.

October 24, 2010 at 12:07 a.m.
HiDef said...

I'll take credit for the grammar lesson CP7768. After reading some of the rants on here I'm worried that some folks are trying to take grammar out of our schools and we cannot allow that. It is tradition after all...

October 24, 2010 at 12:10 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

Phantom I have said many times that everyone has the right to their own religion. Yes christians and any other religion should be allowed to worship whatever god they have. Also to your comment about me implying that everyone on Sports boosters is Christian, that is not at all what I am implying. When I said that we should be allowed Prayer I was meaning the ones that wanted to pray. So once again do not put words in my mouth or imply that I said anything until you know what I said. I am now only posting because some people seem to think that they know what everyone is meaning when they say something. That is so not true. What I get from your posts is that you are a non believer. Is that true? Maybe not but that is what I get just from you are saying.

October 24, 2010 at 12:13 a.m.

I also wanted to say if you are a mom and you have such firm convictions on what you believe it shouldn't matter how much of a waste of time this is. Will we ever agree, very doubtful, but as a parent you should have the conviction to show your kids that no matter how small of a chance. Now at some point do you have to bow out when you have said all you can say yes, but this is something no matter what side you can defend your position for quite some time.

October 24, 2010 at 12:14 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

Do not tell me how to be a parent. I teach my kids to stand and fight for what the believe in but I also teach them that when they are arguing with an idiot that tends to make them mad for comments like you just made about me being a parent then they need to just walk away and fight for their beliefs in other ways.

October 24, 2010 at 12:18 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

Also HiDef none is trying to take grammar out of school. we are simply stating that you are an adult and you should not try to make a child feel stupid by calling out their grammar mistakes unless you are their teacher or their parent. It is not your place to say anything to that child. You being an adult you should be able to overlook kids. Obviously you don't have kids.

October 24, 2010 at 12:21 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

excuse me i better fix my mistake before HiDef gives another grammar lesson. I meant no one is trying to take grammar out of school

October 24, 2010 at 12:23 a.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

You know CP6678, it is funny you are always talking about going to court. I would probably place a bet on you if I were a betting person, that you are one of these people that would take someone to court if they spit the wrong way. Money, money, money, that is all it is about with you. Sdbandmom has her right to her own opinion. You just can't handle the fact that she is taking up for for someone who believes in what they believe in. Sdhs is a child, and you know what I agree with sdbandmom. You have no right to dog a child on here. Talking to a child is one thing dogging them is another.

October 24, 2010 at 12:28 a.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

oops I am sorry CP7768 sorry better get mine right to sdbandmom lol

October 24, 2010 at 12:30 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

way to go Ladyhawke123

October 24, 2010 at 12:30 a.m.
HiDef said...

Are you people dense? When did I ever say that sdhs couldn't state her opinion? And where did she get a free ticket to mouth off without repercussion? As I said before, if she's old enough to be on a computer at 1am (her first post was early this morning) and tell folks to mind their own business, it's not going to go unnoticed. Now on to the rest of your wonderful post ladyhawke.

"People who are non christian if they don't like it go to another school"

CHRISTIANS DON'T OWN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

"Don't put yourselves in a school that has no problem with prayer."

I didn't know my kids had a choice of public schools. Do tell.

"We here in Soddy Daisy wouldn't care if you built the thing right down the road as long as you don't tell us how not to do something we have done for years"

"We" aren't telling you "how not to do something", the courts are :-)

October 24, 2010 at 12:30 a.m.

Actually SD, I am Wiccan, and do have a belief. I have said this on several of my posts or it actually could be implied. And to be honest when you are posting like this on a discussion board you have to infer when your reading until someone defends their opinion. It isn't like in person where they can automatically defend themselves. You have to take what is said in this with a grain of salt because this is a very heated topic. Sorry not trying to insult everyone I just thing this is important.

October 24, 2010 at 12:31 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

HiDef who do you think you are calling dense? I guess your mother never taught you how you are supposed to ignore the statements that a child makes once you become an adult if that child does not belong to you. It is a shame to think that my kids could actually marry someone like you that does not know how to be a grown up and make your point clear to a child but without making them feel stupid. There are ways to make things clear to a child without attacking them. If you don't know how to do that then maybe you need to buy a book teaching you how to speak to children and teenagers before you speak.

October 24, 2010 at 12:36 a.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

Hidef neither do the atheist and you know yes you have a choice there is a list that you get from the schools stating which schools in your area you can send your kids to! To the last one yes you are trying to tell us because if it were not for this stupid group no one would tell us how to not do something. They are the ones that have stated it to our school system the courts didn't call did they.

October 24, 2010 at 12:36 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

okay Phantom whatever. I never implied anything but of course you would take what you read and make it say whatever you want. I am proud to say that Jesus died on that cross for me and my family and I am not ashamed to say I worship a mighty God.

October 24, 2010 at 12:39 a.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

Oh, and by the way Hidef, that sdhs has every right to say what she wants to, you want to why THAT IS THE WAY I RAISED MY DAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!!

October 24, 2010 at 12:40 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

That is right Ladyhawke. Be proud of the way you raised you daughter. I know I am very proud of the way I raised my kids and they know they serve an Awesome God.

October 24, 2010 at 12:43 a.m.
HiDef said...

"Also HiDef none is trying to take grammar out of school"

I know sdbandmom, it's called sarcasm.

"we are simply stating that you are an adult and you should not try to make a child feel stupid by calling out their grammar mistakes unless you are their teacher or their parent. It is not your place to say anything to that child. You being an adult you should be able to overlook kids."

Ok, I'll put on my kid gloves and tell sdhs everything she wants to hear. The world is all sunshine and lemon drops. Everyone agrees with you and no matter how rude you are to someone else, they'll never say anything rude back to you.

"Obviously you don't have kids."

Close! I have three boys.

October 24, 2010 at 12:44 a.m.
Ladyhawke123 said...

Sdbandmom, I truly believe in the way I have raised my children. Never to take bull crap from people who don't want her to believe in her God, and who try to take him away from her at school, or any other place.

October 24, 2010 at 12:47 a.m.

Actually SD, I am far from an Idiot. I am just someone who is making you defend your position and that is pissing you off. And if your calling me an idiot it just proves, and yes I am reading into things, that unless someone agrees with you they can't be right...

October 24, 2010 at 12:49 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

Grow up. No one said that sdhs_christian needed to believe that the world is sunshine and gumdrops. But some of us are not idiots and we know that it is not our job to treat a child as though they are stupid. Adults are simply that: Adults. What right do they have correcting any child that does not belong to them in any way? none at all. So therefore you need to watch what you say to a child and if you can't word it better than you do and you can't refrain from trying to make them feel stupid then don't speak to them. How would you like it if I made your children feel stupid? Oh never mind you would say you don't have a problem with it since that seems to be what you like doing.

October 24, 2010 at 12:50 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

no I never said that did I idiot? I said do not tell me how to raise my children and if you can read then you would clearly see that I said that everyone has a right to believe the way they want to. I don't care who agrees with me and who doesn't so you need to really know what you are talking about before you put words in my mouth. I also never said they were not right if they didn't agree with me. What made me mad is that you are telling me how to raise my kids. I happen to know how to raise kids and I don't need someone like you telling me how to do it. If you knew my kids you would clearly see that.

October 24, 2010 at 12:56 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

Also phantom I know that everyone has different beliefs and I have no problem with that. I do not care what other people believe. I am simply stating how I feel and not what is legal or anything like that. I really don't care what is legal and what isn't. My posts are based on my feelings and that is all there is to it.

October 24, 2010 at 12:58 a.m.
HiDef said...

So, since sdhs is in high school, she has a free ticket to speak rudely to adults on this site that she doesn't know? Wow, you should be proud to have raised a kid like that!

"Never to take bull crap from people who don't want her to believe in her God, and who try to take him away from her at school, or any other place."

Look, back to the topic, nobody is trying to tell any of you not to believe in your God or not to follow your religion. I couldn't care less what you or your kids believe but, flat out, schools, whether it's tradition or not, cannot and should not endorse any one religion over another.

October 24, 2010 at 1:01 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

Wow HiDef you have alot of nerve making a comment like that to Ladyhawke123. She is very proud of the way she raised her daughter because her daughter knows not take bull crap from idiots. Also if you are worried about her speaking rudely to adults then why are you playing the same game and speaking to a child that you don't know like that?

October 24, 2010 at 1:13 a.m.
HiDef said...

"why are you playing the same game and speaking to a child that you don't know like that"

Because she engaged me and approached me and was offensive. Is that good enough for you? You understand that she called me out first, correct? I defended my position. Sue me.

October 24, 2010 at 1:23 a.m.

There you go again using the term Idiots, and using it against people who do not agree with you. Maybe you should check your ego at the door before you post anymore SD... I do believe that the bible says that pride is a bad thing also, so maybe you and ladyhawke should check that out as well.

October 24, 2010 at 1:27 a.m.

I didn't think anyone owned God?

October 24, 2010 at 1:35 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

HiDef once again I state you are an adult. Act like one. Learn to ignore comments from kids. Also you never answered my question. How would you feel if I attacked your boys and made them feel stupid?

Phantom: since when does defending our religion have anything to do with pride? Yes I called you an Idiot simply because you are trying to tell me how I should live and how I should raise my kids. So I will get very defensive over my children. Any true parent would.

October 24, 2010 at 1:41 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

no one said That i owned God but yes when you Make comments implying that I am not doing my job as a parent then I will get very defensive and call you an Idiot. Also do not tell me to get an ego check. You have alot of nerve trying to tell someone how to run their life. Did I tell you that being wiccan was wrong? No I did not so do not tell me how to run my life or what God to serve.

October 24, 2010 at 1:45 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

HiDef yes she did approach you and maybe the way she stated things were wrong, I will not question that. But she is fighting for what she believes and when you approached her and made her look stupid by corrected her grammar that was wrong. As a parent you should know that you do not make a child look stupid especially a child that belongs to someone else. That is not right and you know it.

October 24, 2010 at 1:48 a.m.

By no means was I trying to tell you how to raise your kids, I just said you need to defend your beliefs if you have such high convictions about them, and not back down. Oh, but yet people have the right to tell other people that don't agree with prayer at a public event like a school function to just deal with it? How is that right? Think on that just a little... No one has said you can't pray they are just saying you should respect others and pray in a manner that wouldn't offend. This would be the happy medium. Have a moment of silence, and during this time if you want to pray silently then do so, just don't do it out loud. The few times I have been out eating dinner most people that pray in a public location are doing this so whats the difference? What is the difference between a silent prayer and one that is spoken? The fact that one can be heard... So yes some people may take this as forcing ones religion on another. Just like you are asking for respect from others about your beliefs, we are doing the same thing. Respect I don't think like you, and I will respect you. Now SD I will say maybe I allowed the heat of the moment to affect me, and I will say I am sorry. Now I do want to say one thing and it is important to me. I don't agree with your usage of the word idiot for one reason. I use to actually deal with teasing and taunting when I was younger, and that was one of the terms that was used against me. Now I am going to say one thing other... And yes I am getting on to you... I have refrained from using any negative words to describe you, and that is because I feel this a mature way to handle things. Using the term idiot to describe anyone is rude and uncalled for, and if you must use that word to describe someone then maybe you should think of why you want to use that... I am not trying to attack you personally I just feel that as adults we should be able to defend our views without name calling. Yeah I know rose colored glasses. When things like this get as heated as they have we tend to act totally different in other situations. Look I do see you as a good parent SD. I just wanted to get you to confront why you believe what you do, and I knew your trigger. You are the one that stated you where going to ignore any comments. So once again SD I will say: Sorry for offending you if that is what I did, that was not my intent.

October 24, 2010 at 3:06 a.m.
CP7768 said...

SDBandMom and Ladyhawke123, Just to clarify, you are in support of an illegal act taking place in our school district? Do you truly believe that it is a good lesson to teach the students of this school district that it is alright to support an illegal act because it has been tradition? These are simple yes or no questions for you to answer. Ladyhawke123, I apologize for believing in the judicial system of this country. You believe that people will be judged in the afterlife, I believe people are accountable to the judicial system for their actions. Don't you believe that people should be held accountable for their actions if they do something illegal? Soddy has been practicing an illegal act (i.e. living in sin) for a decade and now they have to be held accountable for their illicit actions. It is about the money. When I pay my taxes, I do not expect them to be going towards lawsuits that the school district cannot win. If such actions are pursued, you might as well take the money you pay in taxes to the county and light it on fire.

October 24, 2010 at 3:46 a.m.
CP7768 said...

SDBandMOM, I'm confused. In one post you say it is wrong for an adult to challenge a teenager/child on their views. When I suggested that I might be a teenager because you are operating on pure assumption, you stated that you don't care how old I am. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth and it has left me confused.

October 24, 2010 at 4:07 a.m.
HiDef said...

sdbandmom-

"How would you feel if I attacked your boys and made them feel stupid?"

If my kids addressed you on this forum the way sdhs addressed me, I would fully expect you to respond defensively to them. Don't dish it out if you can't take it. As for you talking about my kids (from the other thread) I couldn't care less. You don't know them so anything you say would be pure speculation and wouldn't offend me in the least.

Anyway, grammar is a pet peeve of mine and while you're so worried about religion in schools, I'm worried about the education my kids are receiving. You know, math, science, writing, etc? Poor grammar also makes one look unintelligent and lazy. How do you expect people to take you seriously when you don't even possess basic writing skills? When I say basic, we're talking B-A-S-I-C, as in capitalizing the first word of every sentence. Hey, if you want to teach your kids that speaking and typing coherently isn't all that important in this world though, I wish them good luck in life.

"You know what CP7768 I really don't care how old you are."

Nice catch CP7768! I'm curious too. Does age matter or not, sdbandmom?

October 24, 2010 at 9:31 a.m.
sdbandmom said...

okay first of all Phantom I apologize to you for the things I said and I will explain something to you also. Now I looked at things from your point of view so look at them from mine. You feel as though you are being offended by the prayer being said out loud and you also feel as though our religion is being shoved down your throat right? well look at it from our point of view. Not from the legal standpoint, but from ours we feel as though we are being personal attacked as christians for what we do and we also feel as tough we are being forced to believe the way other people believe because we are being told we can't do what we want because it offends someone. Now I have to admit I understand why people believe that it should not be done and I also know all about the supreme courts but I Just feel as though christians are the ones that get punished because of their religion. I feel as though that is a personal attack against them and as I do my children I will strongly stand and fight for it.

October 24, 2010 at 1:06 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

Cp7768 yes I did state that I don't care how old you are. I have said some things that were really uncalled for and I will apologize for those but I will not apologize for defending an innocent kid. Also you are putting words in my mouth that were never said. I did not say it was wrong for an adult to challenge a child. I said they should not personally attack them and make them feel stupid. If an adult feels as though they need to challenge a child that is fine. Just learn how to put it in words so that they are not attacking the child and making them feel stupid. That is clearly my point.

October 24, 2010 at 1:12 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

HiDef you may not care what people say to your kids but I do. I believe an adult should know how to address that child without the attacks and without making them feel stupid. If they can't then they should not address them. Also I worry about the education that my kids receive in school as well as you do but I also worry about God being taken out of school. My kids are honor roll students so they are receiving a perfect education. I am proud of the education they are getting in school. As a parent It is my job to make sure that my kids get the best education possible and it is also my job to teach my kids right from wrong. I have taught my children to know how address an adult the right way but I will admit they get irritated as well as any teenager and they say hateful things. Now sdhs_christian is not my child but she is still a child and she has the right to voice her opinion as you do but as an adult you are the one that is supposed to set an example and know how to address children without being hateful or without making them feel stupid.

October 24, 2010 at 1:20 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

sd, asking a public school to adhere to the constitution is not an attack on Christianity. No one is closing churches or forbidding folks to pray. No one is discriminating against Christians. Even Christians can't agree on the details (why do you think we have so many churches?) so the school cannot endorse just one version.

Encourage your children to follow the law. Encourage them to pray. No one says you can't.

October 24, 2010 at 1:24 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

My kids are encouraged to follow the law but my kids are also taught to fight for what they believe in. First of all my kids continue to pray at school no matter what. Just because they were told they can't do it where it can be heard does not discourage them and make them want to give up. My kids were raised to fight for their rights. I am proud of the kids I have raised and I am proud to say that they have not and will not stop praying. Also lkeithlu I will tell you like I have told other people on this post, Do not tell me how to raise my kids. I am raising them the way they should be raised and I am proud of the kids I have.

October 24, 2010 at 1:33 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

They have not been told not to pray sd. Stop making stuff up. There is no reason not to be proud of your kids, but there is no reason to create oppression where there is none.

October 24, 2010 at 1:49 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

No one is making anything up. I simply said that my kids would continue to pray and they will not stop no matter what. Yes it may not be allowed to be heard of the pa system but if someone overhears my kids praying and it offends them oh well. They will not be told to pray a little quieter. As long as they are more or less praying to them selves but in a low speaking voice (which some people do) then whoever does not like it can walk away and ignore them.

October 24, 2010 at 2:38 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

They won't be told to pray a little quieter. They have every right to pray anytime, anywhere. Obviously if they disrupt class that's not appropriate (neither is walking out of a science class when evolution is covered, but that's another issue) but no one has ever suggested that they will be prevented from praying. If you say this, then you really are making stuff up, and that's dishonest.

October 24, 2010 at 2:47 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I never said they will be prevented, I said if they were told they couldn't. You are right walking out of a science class is not appropriate but I will not allow my children to be taught that they evolved from apes. The bible teaches my children who created them and where they came from and that is what they need to know. They will not subjected to the theory of evolution. But thank god so far they have never been told that they evolve from apes. They are both in high school and they have never been taught evolution.

October 24, 2010 at 2:55 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"They are both in high school and they have never been taught evolution." What a pity. It's the foundation of biology. Guess they won't be scientists. If they go to college and learn the truth, it will shake their religious foundation to the core.

October 24, 2010 at 3:07 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

Why is this woman speaking, when her god commands her to be silent?

October 24, 2010 at 3:09 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

they are going to college but they have better things in mind to be than a scientist that wants to teach kids that they evolve from monkeys. They want to do things in this world to help other people not teach them lies.

October 24, 2010 at 3:23 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

eeeeeek just because I am a woman does not mean that I do not have the right to speak. Sorry you need to think about that. God says a woman should remain quiet in church and if she has a question she should ask her husband when they get home. Well the last time I checked this is not church so I have every right to speak just as you do.

October 24, 2010 at 3:24 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"they are going to college but they have better things in mind to be than a scientist that wants to teach kids that they evolve from monkeys. They want to do things in this world to help other people not teach them lies"

Modern medicine is based on biological principles, whose foundation is evolutionary theory. What scientists know about human health has its foundations in primate physiology. Evolutionary theory is the foundation of agriculture, public health, ecology. Your denying it changes nothing. You better make sure your kids go to bible school, or they will quickly find out.

If you were interested in learning more, I'd direct you to sources. Somehow I get the impression you'd like to stay as you are. I am happy to be shown otherwise.

October 24, 2010 at 3:29 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I will repeat what I have told you many times, do not tell me what my kids need to learn. My kids know the truth and what they need to know. They know who created the heavens and the earth and they know who created man. But if want to believe the evolution fine, but don't try to force it down our throats. Also I have a question for you, If you so strongly believe that we evolved from apes then you must have an explanation about where the ape came from. Do you care to explain that? The ape had to come from somewhere and it was not from under a rock

October 24, 2010 at 3:35 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

Yep... that's what it says.

Paul wrote to the Corinthian congregation,

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1Corinthians 14:34-35, KJV).

To the evangelist Timothy Paul wrote,

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence" (1 Timothy 2:11-12, KJV).

So the verdict is to be silent and go back to the gossup corner... ignorant, barefoot and pregnant.

October 24, 2010 at 3:38 p.m.
hurro said...

Ya'll are saying My tax dollars this and my tax dollars that. 1. Your money is involved if the school system went to court, which would be very foolish. Or... 2. It would use your $tax to pray in school if they tought a class on it. I don't think leaving the P.A. system and lights on for 1 or 2 more minutes longer that night because of prayer would break the bank. 3. If some muslims or jews wanna pray over the speakers, let them have at it. I'd do the same thing i expect them to do... IGNORE THE FRICKIN' PRAYER! Does it do any injury to someone to just hear a prayer? Their beliefs aren't being imposed on you, they are just expressing their own. Why don't the people complaining hold their own prayer after the first? Also, why do Atheists hate something they don't believe exists? If someone was praying to the magic unicorn god, I wouldn't launch an Anti-Unicorn campaign. Especially if i believed that when i die that was it and their soul was not in peril because of their beliefs. And about breaking the law, well isn't it our right to break an unjust law and our duty to overthrow a corrupt government (our founding father thought so). Is this law unjust and is our government corrupt? That's for each person to decide, but what isn't right is that ONE KID can keep hundreds of others(potentially thousands across the region) from praying over the sound system if they so choose. These are my personal feelings, but i accept that it isn't realistic for me to expect that they be shared by the majority of people or be enforced as law in society. I just wish people weren't so politically correct and so darn touchy about everything. This hits home hard because i attend a local high school and enjoyed pre-game prayers.

October 24, 2010 at 3:40 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Apes evolved from earlier primate ancestor. Who in turn evolved from an earlier ancestor. It took hundreds of millions of years. It takes a long time to learn the specifics of evolutionary theory, and a long time to learn all the supporting sciences such as geology, biochemistry and genetics. However, there are resources for laypeople. I want to emphasize again: This does NOT conflict with Christian belief. It only conflicts with a literal interpretation of Genesis, which most Christians no longer hold to.

October 24, 2010 at 3:45 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

Sorry but if you knew anything about the law you would know that obey was taken out of marriage vows. No man owns a woman and no man has a right to tell a woman that she can or can not do something. So a woman does not have to obey a man. Believe me if a woman could stay barefoot and pregnant without the help of a man there probably would be more women having kids all the time. But no woman wants a man that thinks they are superior to them and no woman wants a man to help do anything. For the record, Yes I am married, we have an agreement that I am my own person and that I did not get married to have a dad. I have a dad and I do not need an egotistical man thinking that he owns me just because we got married. The men I know and was raised around feel the same way. My dad is a church of god preacher and he has raised me to believe this way.

October 24, 2010 at 3:46 p.m.
anniebelle said...

sdbandmom, teh stupid burns coming from your posts. Please go back to school and learn something about the world outside your trailer park -- you are a pathetic example of the 'lernin' people in this bible belt have assimilated through their thoughtless brains. And I think you're on to something -- you are devolving, not evolving -- I do believe you are the one that came crawling out from under a rock.

October 24, 2010 at 3:47 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

Anniebelle I really don't care what you think. Personally I know where I came from and I also know who created me. You can believe evolution all you want to. You can also believe that you need a man to succeed in life. That is truly sad. I am an independent woman and I have raised my daughter to know that she does not need a man to do anything except have a baby. Unfortunately there isn't a way to have one without a man. I have also taught my son that he does not own any woman and he never will. Also for your information smart mouth I do not live in a trailer park. I am not devolving and I do not appreciate the remarks. I came from under a rock? Funny I am the one that seems to know who created me, so no I didn't come from under a rock.

October 24, 2010 at 3:53 p.m.
hurro said...

Now that ya'll are on evolution, let me say something. My Biology teacher told us "This is a theory, it is not proven and i am not telling you that what you believe is wrong. Also, evolution IS NOT MAN EVOLVING FROM MONKEY. Darwin NEVER said that. Evolution is change over time." Evolution in this sense is true, Humans have changed (gotten taller for example), dogs have changed (look at all of the variations and breeds), Almost all animals have changed. Some people believe that no animals have ever changed in history, this is foolish. Of course some scientist believe we all started as bacteria billions of years ago, but this is not what is tought in high school. People always tend to go to extremes and they are almost always wrong when they do this. To say God created animals 6,000 years ago and they haven't changed since is ridiculous. To say that life just happened by chance is equally foolish. I believe Word for Word what the Bible says, and that God created the Universe, the Earth and all its creatures, but i also believe that they have changed in small ways over time (THIS is what is known as evolution).

October 24, 2010 at 3:53 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

So you are saying a law of man outweighs the law of your god?

That's so sad.

Your dad will be burning in the hell of your god for teaching you improperly and not respecting the word of your god.. and since you willingly followed his teachings you'll burn too.

You must cry all of the time with this knowledge eating at you continuously.

October 24, 2010 at 3:57 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Uh, hurro, not exactly. Evolution does not address the origin of life. But all life evolved over 100's of millions of years from simple forms beginning with single celled organisms. Humans have evolved from earlier common ancestors with apes, the further back in time you go, the more common ancestors you find: with primates, with mammals, with vertebrates etc.

October 24, 2010 at 3:59 p.m.
realityrox said...

sdbandmom was created? I didn't think there were any test tube babies in Soddy Daisy...

October 24, 2010 at 4:03 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

What right do you have to tell anyone that they will burn in hell eeeeeek? I may think that the nonbelievers will burn in hell but I have never stated that. You have no right to pass judgment and tell anyone that they will burn in hell. Everyone has their own beliefs and no one has the right to tell someone that they will burn in hell. You think that I will burn in hell because I believe the bible? How truly sad. The bible is what I live by and that is what I am supposed to live by. You live the way you want to and I will live the way I want.

October 24, 2010 at 4:05 p.m.
hurro said...
  1. don't ever talk about my dad and my beliefs eeeeeek, i use the Bible to prove Science not the other way around. I believe that God created all life, were you not reading closely? 2 Ikeithlu: I didn't mean to suggest that evolution talks about the origin of life. I meant that some scientists use this theory to provide a possible beginning for life (though i disagree with their theory for its origin). And i know that the theory says that Monkeys and ourselves share common ancestors, this i disagree with. Like i said i do agree that there is change over time, but i dont agree with much else. Thank you Ikeithlu for your more civil post.

eeeeeeek it is not your job to judge others, it is God's (do not judge that you may not be judged; may the one without sin cast the first stone). Please don't make assumptions about my respect for the Word of God. And please show me Where in the Bible it says that Animals have not changed since God put them here on Earth. If you can successfully do so then i will adopt a new point of view and thank you for enlightening me. I will be awaiting your plethora of infallible knowledge in your next groundbreaking post.

October 24, 2010 at 4:09 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

realityrox I know what I meant, just because you don't does not mean that I am wrong. God created the first man on this earth and the process went from there. The rest is pretty self explanatory but if you need a lesson in sex education then I suggest you go back to elementary. I know where I came from and I also know that God is the reason that anyone is here. Without creating the first man then no one would be here today.

October 24, 2010 at 4:10 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

These posts are pointless. I am done arguing now. I see no point in this anymore. People will never see eye to eye and all the bashing each other on a public forum is not helping anything. I will not get back on here and post anything else. I am done with the childish, petty bickering back and forth. have a nice life and good luck to everyone that is trying to prove their points.

October 24, 2010 at 4:13 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Admitting defeat, I guess.

October 24, 2010 at 4:23 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

There is no hell... and no gods to fear.

I was gone a long time before my parents conceived the fetus that grew into me.. and I'll be gone a long time after my life ends.

I'm not against religion... I'm against hypocrisy.

If you want to live in the land of make believe.. enjoy it. When it crosses the line into reality, it needs to play nice with the folks who live life in reality or suffer the evidence based on scientific method and not the goddidit method.

I've been treating the charactors of the holy books.. and not just yours... the same as any poorly written charactor of any book I've had the opportunity to read. If any of them were real.. I'd think they would have shown up to have a word with me, instead of brainwashed baffoons with circular arguments.

October 24, 2010 at 4:29 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I have one question before I end these posts. Everyone keeps saying that school sanctioned prayer is inconstitional right? Well what if the ball game was held somewhere other than school property? What would be the complaint against prayer over the loud speaker then?

October 24, 2010 at 4:34 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

probably, if it were lead by people who represent the school and over a loudspeaker.

Why is it soooooooo important that schools have group prayer at ball games? Doesn't individual prayer work as well? This sounds like a thinly disguised justification for evangelism. Just play the bloody game.

October 24, 2010 at 4:38 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

Where the hell have you friggin been? It is Unconstitional to use public funded properties for any religious activities.

Religious based teams on religious based properties or in private schools can do anything they goddamn wish.

October 24, 2010 at 4:42 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

My question was what would be the complaint lkeithlu. Yes I have to say that individual prayer does work as well but doing it that way the team can not hear it and they have the right to hear it. But I would like to know what the complaint would be? I guess it proves the point alot of people have made. This is clearly about it offending the non believers. It has nothing to do with it being unconstitutional. Becasue I don't see how it could possibly be illegal if it is not on school property and not led by an official

October 24, 2010 at 4:42 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I was simply asking a question eeeeeek. Do not curse at me like that. Everyone keeps saying school sanctioned prayer. Well I was just curious to know what the complaint would be if it were not done on school property. So refrain from the cursing or do not respond to my posts. No one asked for the smart mouthed comments and no one wants the cursing.

October 24, 2010 at 4:45 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

Also if the game was played on private property then I don't care what anybody says, no one would have the right to stop the prayer no matter how hard they tried. That would be impossible to do since the person that owned the property pays the taxed and would allow it. That was simply what I was asking. I never said it had to be on public property did i?

October 24, 2010 at 4:47 p.m.
realityrox said...

eeeeeek cursed? where?

October 24, 2010 at 4:47 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

Whatever realityrox. i don't have to put up with smart mouthed people. I simply asked a question and it can not be answered. That just proves the point that so many people have made. This whole thing has to do with offense not being illegal or unconstitutional.

October 24, 2010 at 4:51 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

If the school was represented by officials and coaches and teams in uniform, the ban on broadcast prayer would still hold, I'm sure.

Your argument that the team couldn't hear it isn't valid. The team can pray on its own.

October 24, 2010 at 4:54 p.m.
realityrox said...

I personally find prayers to a mass murderer offensive.

October 24, 2010 at 4:55 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

okay true. well if the game was held on private property then nothing could be done at all if the prayer was held over the loud speaker. It only applies if it is held on public property.

October 24, 2010 at 5 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

It doesn't surprise me that you find it offensive realityrox

October 24, 2010 at 5:03 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Actually, sd, I believe you are wrong. Prayers done at a game, regardless of where it is held, if done by representatives of the school or over a loudspeaker, violate the establishment clause. You can run it by the ACLU if you like, but I think I'm right on this.

October 24, 2010 at 5:06 p.m.
realityrox said...

Then why do worship one, sdbandmom?

October 24, 2010 at 5:07 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You haven't answered my question, sd. Why is it so important that the school conduct a public prayer at a game?

October 24, 2010 at 5:09 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I do not see how it could be wrong if the person that owns the property allows a student to pray over teh loud speaker if that is what they want to do. No member of the school is doing it. A person not associaited with the school could do it and I do not see that it could be wrong. To answer your question lkeithlu it is important to the people that wanted to do this because that is something that they have enjoyed doing. If something is important to you do you not want to continue it?

October 24, 2010 at 5:19 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

why do I worship a god realityrox? Becasue that is my choice and I want to. I have that right as a citizen do I not?

October 24, 2010 at 5:20 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

They enjoy it? That's the reason? Whatever, sd. For a group that insists that they are patriots they have little respect for the constitution. I think they really feel that it is their divine duty to evangelize to the rest of us.

Perhaps we ought to get rid of school sports and let the churches do it. Would save lots of money.

October 24, 2010 at 5:24 p.m.
realityrox said...

I know it's your right to... but why do you worship a mass murderer?

The final edition of your book has it happily claiming responsibility for 2,476,633 deaths, which includes the beheadings of newborns, children, women and men.

If your god was real.. it's rampant destruction continues to this day... Why would you want worship such a butthole?

October 24, 2010 at 5:33 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

well I would say you were right if the school system funded the sports. The sports boosters bust their tails to raise the money for anything that needs to be funded for the sports. I know first hand that Soddy Parents are the ones that paint and sod the field. I also know that they had to manually run the scoreboard becasue it was messed up and the school system does not repair it. I also have seen them have fun raisers to raise the money to lay the sod on the field. I also know that the food at the concession stands are in no way funded by the school system. They do not fund any part of the concession stand at all except the building itself. So where would it save them money since they do not have any money invested in the games except maybe the lights?

October 24, 2010 at 5:35 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

I will not reply to that statement with a comment realityrox. You can think what you want and I will think the way I want. I know that god is real and that is all that matters to me. You believe what you want and that is all that should matter to you.

October 24, 2010 at 5:39 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

excuse me, I meant to say that they have fund raisers to raise money. I better correct my grammar since some people seem to enjoy doing that.

October 24, 2010 at 5:41 p.m.
realityrox said...

Are you going to deny the information supplied in your holybook? Isn't that like denying your god's word?

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html

Good thing your god isn't real? You'd have been smited by now.

October 24, 2010 at 5:43 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

No I am not denying my gods word. Look I don't know who you think you are but I do not need anyone telling me what to believe. You may be atheist or whatever religion you follow and that is your choice. But not one time have you heard me tell you that what you believe is wrong. If that is right for you then so be it but it is not right for me and I will not change the way I believe. You do as you please and I will continue to live the way I choose. I will continue to serve teh god I choose to serve and I will continue to read the bible. You read whatever book you want to read and have a nice life doing. But do not tell me that the life I live is wrong and that the god i serve is not real. You will never convince me otherwise.

October 24, 2010 at 5:50 p.m.
sdbandmom said...

Also let me state that it is wrong for anyone to judge someone for thier beliefs. I have never one time said that you were wrong for believing the way you do realityrox. I have simply just stated thet I believe it is wrong. Which clearly means that is not the way I think I should live. No one has the right to dictate to anyone how they should live or that they way they are living is wrong. That is the whole purpose of different religions. what ever religion is right for you may not be right for someone else. So therefore do not tell me that my god is not real and I will not tell you that who ever or what ever you worship is not real. I have no idea what your religion is and I do not care to know. But just because it is right for you does not mean it is right for every one

October 24, 2010 at 5:55 p.m.
realityrox said...

Which is why you think it's okay to force the prayers for your mean god on the ears who believe in other gods, or have concluded there aren't any.

If you aren't wanting to hear conflicting arguments.. take your ball and go home. Someone else will have one.

October 24, 2010 at 6:03 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

FYI - atheism is not a belief system, religion or whatever mystical and magical. It's a conclusion, come to with thought and evidence.

All religious people are atheists, also. They don't believe in the other gods.. be it Zeus, Odin, Jesus atheist just add all of the above approach. No proof.

October 24, 2010 at 6:04 p.m.
hrtofluv said...

I quit trying to argue with hardened hearted posters here last week, but after reading through everything today; I just had to respond. Lkeithlu wrote about evolution in a couple of posts: "What a pity. It's the foundation of biology. Guess they won't be scientists. If they go to college and learn the truth, it will shake their religious foundation to the core." "Modern medicine is based on biological principles, whose foundation is evolutionary theory. What scientists know about human health has its foundations in primate physiology. Evolutionary theory is the foundation of agriculture, public health, ecology. Your denying it changes nothing. You better make sure your kids go to bible school, or they will quickly find out." Well - they can teach whatever they dictate at public schools, and we just have to spit it back out on tests. It doesn't mean you have to believe everything that is taught. I am a Christian and I have a Bachelor of Science degree in Biology and Pre-Med. Going to college did not "shake my religious foundation to a core". In fact, learning more about the intricacies of the human body as well as dissecting a number of animals and mammals, I had a firmer belief in everything in the Bible including the book of Genesis. The human body has so many systems that relies on a sequence of minutiae events to fire off in the correct order just to do the most simple daily tasks would blow anyone’s mind (including posting her). Yes, the theory of evolution is abundant in our world and is shown in many foundations of life – the changes different forms of life takes as we adapt to our surroundings. But, there is no doubt in my mind we were created just like the book of Genesis reads and our existence is a miracle in itself. If you did an extensive research among the medical doctors in our great United States; the majority would agree. Yes, our human bodies have evolved over the years, but not from an ape or a single-celled organism – just from human to human.

October 25, 2010 at 11:12 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

hrto: great. Use Genesis to explain why we share characteristics with apes, such as inability to manufacture vitamin C (unlike other primates). Also our vagus nerve, for no known reason, descends below the aorta and back up (in giraffes this is extreme, resulting in a 12 ft nerve that needs to go 12 inches). Evolution explains these.

October 25, 2010 at 11:58 a.m.
hrtofluv said...

lkeith- show me any book (not written by an agnostic or atheist) that shows proof we truly come from apes. Yes, there are some DNA similarities, but we also have some similarities in pseudogenes with mice, porcupines, and cats (all of these are theories that have never been proved). I think we all have a common ancestor - the Intelligent Designer/Creator. Why does everything have to be unique - why not build off something that has already shown to work well and add to it - such as the life of man. Beasts were created first, then man. And I believe the Intelligent Designer created evolution with some Darwinism - the stronger, faster, more intelligent of each species survives and those traits are passed down. Course his theory is not how it works in the human world - what a joke - almost reverse Darwinism - the weak, slow, and stupid are the ones that populate the earth the most. I digress. Anyway - all scientific works start as a theory - it can only be fact once it is taken through hypotheses and testing - that is why evolution is still a theory because it has NEVER been proved and never will be. I said that I accept evolution theory (except the ape part). I just don't believe in it in its entirety. And I just wanted to put it out there that you could focus on the difference between science and belief, but there is nothing in science that actually threatens my faith system.

October 25, 2010 at 1:16 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Actually, human evolution appears to do exactly that: threaten your faith.

There are really good books written by scientists out there (not sure why you insist on knowing their religion-it should not matter) that explain evolution, including human evolution. Try "Finding Darwin's God", by Ken Miller, a devout Christian and a biologist. It makes no sense to accept evolution of all creatures except humans; humans did not suddenly "poof" into existence. Either you accept evolution and an ancient earth or you don't.

That aside, please answer my question: How does Genesis explain those two questions? After all, you claim that Genesis can do this, that the Bible provides all the answers to these peculiar facts.

By the way, scientific theories are never "proven"; if you are a scientist you would know this. They explain the evidence. ALL the evidence. So the Genesis explanation must cover everything, from man's unique capabilities (easy) to the strange and inefficient design features in the human body that we share with other mammals. (not so easy). That "God wanted it that way" is not a scientific explanation.

October 25, 2010 at 2:16 p.m.
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