published Thursday, February 17th, 2011


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about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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nucanuck said...


February 17, 2011 at 12:17 a.m.
hambone said...


February 17, 2011 at 12:31 a.m.
canarysong said...

That guy can't be in the tea party; he knows how to spell!

February 17, 2011 at 2:13 a.m.
alprova said...

An interesting poll was released a couple of days ago. It outlined the fact that a full 51% of Republicans who were polled on the issue, believe that President Obama was NOT born in America.

Further intriguing were the Republican candidates that they believed would be nominated to run in 2012. Among the "Birthers" polled, former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee was preferred by 24%, Sarah Palin by 19%, Newt Gingrich by 14%, Mitt Romney by 11%.

Those 49% of Republicans who believed that President Obama is indeed a U.S. citizen, Mitt Romney garnered 23%, Mike Huckabee received 16%, Sarah Palin received 11%, and Newt Gingrich received only 10%.

The overall average stands like this; Mike Huckabee leads with 20%, followed by Mitt Romney with 17%, Sarah Palin with 15%, and Newt Gingrich with 12%.

Who realistically thinks at this point that there is a Republican considering a run for the Presidency in 2012, who will have any chance whatsoever in dethroning Obama?

Obama could refuse to appear at a debate at all against those clowns, and he will win in a landslide in 2012.

The nationwide survey was conducted Feb. 11-13 among 400 Republican primary voters with a 4.9-point margin of error.

February 17, 2011 at 3:43 a.m.
alprova said...

I did find the more expanded and a marginally published report of the poll I was referring to.

"Birthers make a majority among those voters who say they're likely to participate in a Republican primary next year. 51% say they don't think Barack Obama was born in the United States to just 28% who firmly believe that he was and 21% who are unsure. The GOP birther majority is a new development. The last time PPP tested this question nationally, in August of 2009, only 44% of Republicans said they thought Obama was born outside the country while 36% said that he definitely was born in the United States. If anything birtherism is on the rise.

How does this impact Romney? Well among the 49% of GOP primary voters who either think Obama was born in the United States or aren't sure, Romney's the first choice to be the 2012 nominee by a good amount, getting 23% to 16% for Mike Huckabee, 11% for Sarah Palin, and 10% for Newt Gingrich.

But with the birther majority he's in a distant fourth place at 11%, with Mike Huckabee at 24%, Sarah Palin at 19%, and Newt Gingrich at 14% all ahead of him. That pushes him into a second place finish overall at 17% with Mike Huckabee again leading the way this month at 20%. Palin's third with 15%, followed by Gingrich at 12%, Ron Paul at 8%, Mitch Daniels and Tim Pawlenty at 4%, and John Thune at 1%.

February 17, 2011 at 3:47 a.m.
Francis said...

interesting how you use the word "dethrone", alprova...because president obama and his wife believe they do sit on thrones..

it's still an issue because obama has failed to settle it. the governor of hawaii, made the whole thing worse by saying he could produce it, then he couldn't.

he's been king for two years and it's still an issue? if there wasn't a question, then it wouldn't be an issue. you and other libs just want everyone else to just buy what you say....why should we? it's quite simple to prove it. why doesn't he do it. he's not believable.

he probably is a u.s. citizen.....but the fact that the question remains is his fault..not one elses.

your anal retentive post, alprova, with it's painstaking research and links is what's wierd. it's 3:47 a.m. and you're taking on the role of an obama pollster? now that's wierd.

if there's still a question about whether he is a muslim or not, it's his fault.....there are questions whether he's a christian or not...just because he attended a church...jeremiah wright's church.. means nothing...that church is no more a christian church than a kkk meetiing in a basement some where in mississippi in 1952 would be.

if questions still remain at this point it's because there's plenty to keep them alive. you libs are still spewing consipiracy theories about bush and cheney to this day.....

speaking of proof...from your posts, alprova, it seems that you're an anti-semite, a communist and have no respect for the constitution.

February 17, 2011 at 5:31 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

If I get in the basement with Mr Bennett, I'll say our President is a Christian by some definitions (and if he's not perfect, neither am I). He's hiding his birth certificate, probably to keep a non-issue alive and distract us from his record rather than to keep Mr Biden off his throne.

He was elected, which gives him limited authority to (try to) steer our country ("our" includeds him) in his preferred direction; and the G.O.P. House, also elected, also has such authority. He has given us huge deficits, high unemployment (over 8% despite $800,000,000,000 of worthless "stimulus"), a health law which is unConstitutional (read the Constitution, please) and which does not live up to its promises--health insurance rates are going up already, coverages are being dropped, his cronies are getting exemptions from the law...His vision is lousy; it needs changed. IF he changes, great: Ronald Reagan used to be a liberal Democrat (and Bilkis Sheikh used to be a Muslim.) Otherwise, we can change him next election. During Jimmy Carter's Presidency, which failed, there was similar doubt about GOP contenders.

Remember Jesus Christ, President of presidents, is libertarian. Sooner or later we'll recognize this.

February 17, 2011 at 6:35 a.m.
mymy said...

The Kool-Aid drinkers (Clay Heads) will be out in full force today.

I needed some comic relief and it's on the way.

February 17, 2011 at 6:46 a.m.
dude_abides said...

"...he's been king for two years and it's still an issue? if there wasn't a question, then it wouldn't be an issue." -Francis The entire republican party, including the tea party, may be child molesters. I have seen no proof to the contrary, so there is a "question". Since there's a question, it's an issue. You possibly perverted, evil possible scum make me sick, possibly.

February 17, 2011 at 7:20 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Andrew - I guess one way of understanding "for freedom we have been set free" is to conclude that Jesus was a libertarian. But, please consider the context of that passage. We have been set free to be servants of God and servants to one another.

Libertarians - especially those who think that Atlas Shrugged is the 67th book of the Canon - behave as though they have been set free to be servants unto themselves.

February 17, 2011 at 8 a.m.
delmar said...

My question to Francis - What does religion have to do with anyone being President?

February 17, 2011 at 8:11 a.m.
Reardon said...

"We have been set free to be servants of God and servants to one another.

Libertarians - especially those who think that Atlas Shrugged is the 67th book of the Canon - behave as though they have been set free to be servants unto themselves."

MTJohn -- no offense, but you need to first understand the difference between a servant and a slave before making such a silly statement.

February 17, 2011 at 8:19 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Reardon - I understand the difference between servitude and slavery. I understand the difference between the Kingdom and human empires. And, I understand the difference between using Scripture to understand our personal relationship with the Creator and to guide our aspirations to live into the image in which we have been created versus using Scripture in an effort to re-order society in our own selfish image.

February 17, 2011 at 8:30 a.m.
Francis said...

yeah..dude...that's a good one.....the fact is..dude...there's no 100% proof that obama was born on u.s. soil.....he keeps it one else...he prolongs one's a legitimate question. should we believe it just because he says he was....? just cough up the birth certificate and put it to rest. what's the big deal?

he says he was born on u.s soil..fine..prove it. everyone else has to.

since he claims he shouldn't be a problem

you libs are fighting tooth and nail to make obama a beloved and trusted figure.....he's just not........he's a curiosity and he's worn out his welcome.. especially to the people who are unemployed, who own businesses and those who will be affected by his tax increases....that's a lot of people..

February 17, 2011 at 8:31 a.m.
memphisexile said...

You forgot to put a tin foil hat on the guy in the cartoon Clay.

February 17, 2011 at 8:56 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

All this talk about Obama being a Muslim foreigner is laughable. It reminds of something my dad would say about dishonest people:

"One lies and the other swears to it."

What if you went to work and your boss asks you, "Do you still beat your wife?"

You don't fall into the trap of saying 'no,' (as in, no I don't still beat my wife), and you reply, 'I never beat my wife. That's a lie.'

But the next day at work another employee says, 'I heard you beat your wife.'

And no matter what you say or what proof you provide, someone will always be able to say, 'Hey, I heard that guy beats his wife.'

The only problem I have with Clay's cartoon is the setting. Instead of a basement, that same guy could have been on the "News" set at Fox or a Board room at the NRC headquarters.

People are more likely to believe a big lie than a little one. That's a fact. It also seems to be a major component of Republican strategy heading into the 2012 election.

February 17, 2011 at 9:01 a.m.

Barry/Barack Soetoro/Obama is indeed a difficult person to pin down. But it appears that Claydo has the middle aged balding angry white man nailed, doesn't he?

February 17, 2011 at 9:17 a.m.
carlB said...

My question to Francis - What does religion have to do with anyone being President? Username: delmar | On: February 17, 2011 at 8:11 a.m. ============ REply to delmar: You are correct Religion and politics do not mix. Religion is a private personal affair within the person and should not be imposed on other people's law's or political judgments or laws.
There are too many different religious beliefs and there is only one Republic which has to be kept in a balanced condition between all of the extreme "ism's" and the "ist's" to be able to serve all of the people.

February 17, 2011 at 9:19 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Sometimes people need to stop and consider what it would mean if the claims about Obama being foreign born were true. Don't you think that someone with the influence and visibility of John McCain would have demonstrated this and taken the White House by now? This is how you do a reality check, folks. People far more powerful and more likely to benefit from this being true are not adding their voices to the conversation. Obama being foreign born belongs in the same category as leprechauns and the Loch Ness Monster. Criticize his presidency and his politics if you want, but if you want to remain credible don't drift into the world of fantasy.

February 17, 2011 at 9:25 a.m.
Francis said...

religion has nothing do with being president. but the fact is...and it's a fact.. obama attended a church that was racist, anti-semite and anti-american for 20 or so years.....he claims he never heard some of the things rev. wright is famous for saying....come on!.....religion has nothing to do with being president, but lying about things like that do matter. if a republican can- didate attended a racist/kkk run church somewhere and he denied it, would it be an issue...of course it would.

no liberal's not a major part of anything.....all people have to do is look around and see how crappy it is and that'll be all the incentive they need to vote against obama....

obama is viewed as: maybe not being born on us soil, being a radical muslim sympathizer, a communist, an authoritarian, a liar, an anti-semite, not respectful of the constitution, an attacker of personal liberty, easy on illegal aliens, a taxaholic and unfriendly toward the private sector and business.

there's plenty to back all of that's called numbers and facts....

February 17, 2011 at 9:35 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis said, "obama is viewed as: maybe not being born on us soil, being a radical muslim sympathizer, a communist, an authoritarian, a liar, an anti-semite, not respectful of the constitution, an attacker of personal liberty, easy on illegal aliens, a taxaholic and unfriendly toward the private sector and business.

there's plenty to back all of that's called numbers and facts...."

Show me.

February 17, 2011 at 9:44 a.m.
tderng said...

It is the liberal press that keeps this issue at the front of news.The poll is one of many and done by a liberal pollster>The polls done by credible pollsters show that only about 38% believe that it might be true. The white house doesn't want this issue settled because it detracts the right from taking on the real issues and keeps the minds of Americans off the policies that he has and is trying to enact.THE WHITE HOUSE DOES NOT WANT THIS ISSUE TO BE SETTLED!THE REPUBS NEED TO JUST LAUGH IT OFF AND GET BACK TO THE REAL ISSUES!Stopping the spending machine and stopping the sneaked in taxes that are in new latest budget proposal.

February 17, 2011 at 9:47 a.m.
potcat said...

The GREAT Ronnie Reagan X Hollywood B actor X Democrat and all things Pubcan are sun shine and liy white flowers they piss honey..Sh-- morning GLORIES and POOT butterflies.

February 17, 2011 at 10:03 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Tderng pointed out that, "It is the liberal press that keeps this issue at the front of news."

Yes and no. Actually the fable friendly media of all political stripes thrive on controversy and are only too happy to report the latest rumors.

TD went on to say, "credible pollsters show that only about 38% believe that it might be true."

First of all, that's not a number any Republican should be proud of. Second, In the interest of full disclosure please provide the poll or a link.

February 17, 2011 at 10:07 a.m.
Francis said...

also...chris christie could beat obama in could daniels the former gov. of indiana.....chris christie is likeable...obama is simply not..when he reveals himself for what he really he has for the last two makes you want to gag as an american. chris a real person, unlike obama..who is a fabrication or a fraud.

tderng has a g ood point...the liberal media does it keep it alive...obama may be able to prove it..but he doesn't want to..

no blackwater, you prove to me that he's not any of those.....because that's what i see...that's what he is. ask the citizens of arizona, the families of the 9/11 victims, the unemployed, those facing tax increases, those being threatened for not purchasing health insurance, small business owners, medium size business owners, ..etc..etc....

you liberal coctail love slapping "phobia" on anyone who disagrees with you.. homophobia, obamaphobia...

hey, how about islamaphobia..that's a good one..

...see that sharia law fueled attack and sexaul assault on lara that rooted in reality enough for you? ....9/11..the various beheadings and suicide bombing....1500 years of bullying their way around the globe "converting" and killing infadels....women and girls raped by fathers and family members..and getting away with it.........

bad things have been done in the name of religion forever..most religions.....but most stopped cent- uries ago...islam is still at it..

that's not a phobia..that's reality.

February 17, 2011 at 10:30 a.m.
alprova said...

blackwater48, please don't give the troll the time of day. He's a blooming idiot without enough brain matter to figure out how to tie his shoes in the morning.

To the people in this nation who do have a brain, any question as to where the President was born was answered and settled more than three years ago.

To anyone who currently has even the slightest doubt as to where the President was born at this point and time, with all the proof out there that exists to answer the question to a satisfactory conclusion, they unfortunately are among the most willfully stupid of human beings on the planet.

There is no kinder way to say it.

February 17, 2011 at 10:31 a.m.
alprova said...

The Troll wrote: "chris christie could beat obama in 2012"


"so could daniels the former gov. of indiana"


February 17, 2011 at 10:38 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Obviously the guy in the cartoon just offered a deadbeat liberal (illegal alien, disenchanted, wannabee bum) a job but he skeedaddled to the welfare office before the average American Joe could finish his offering of work. Clay hates that thos who choose to be destitute, break the law, live illegally and just bascially tax hard-working people to death are thought of poorly. Maybe he has underlying issues. Sorry Clay, this ain't communist China. Gotta work to eat buddy.

February 17, 2011 at 10:46 a.m.
hambone said...

If there had been 100 witnesses in the delivery room when Obama was born all saying he was a citizen, there would still be some calling it a lie.

This cartoon must be Francis in his home office talking to his imaginary friend in the chair!

February 17, 2011 at 10:48 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Andrew Lohr: “Remember Jesus Christ, President of presidents, is libertarian. Sooner or later we'll recognize this.”

Believe a little respect might be in order here, Andrew Lohr. Jesus said: “Blessed Are the Little Children” while libertarian republicans chant: “Women and Children Last.”

February 17, 2011 at 11:14 a.m.
Clara said...

hambone, I thought it was the water heater. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh! And how about Michele Bachmann beating Obama in 2012? C:-)

I understand she's an understudy for Palin?

February 17, 2011 at 11:15 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Alprova said: Republicans who were polled on the issue, believe that President Obama was NOT born in America.

Your patience is so admirable, Alprova. If you should get weary a little later on in the day, there is always Salon’s handy-dandy guide for your fingertips and clicking:

Salon's handy-dandy guide to refuting the Birthers

February 17, 2011 at 11:22 a.m.

Proof-texting the Bible: a bi-partisan passion in the Bible-belt and beyond.

February 17, 2011 at 11:22 a.m.
Francis said...

no, hambone...everyone else can produce a birth certificate..but he can't...

either he doesn't want to...and the liberal media wants to keep it alive..or it doesn't exist......

yes, smug, liberal can stay up to the wee hours tracking down poll numbers and crossing every t and dotting every i, but you can't change the fact that obama has been revealed for who he is.. and that's what's different than 2008.....

mitch daniels and chris christie...two real, responisble public servants who have empathy for the citizenry...unlike the bully in chief we have in their now...

and by the way.....congratulations to the governor of wisconsin for taking on unions...which are nothing more than mini mafias and democrat party breeding grounds....

obama is outraged ...he just called the governor's and the state senate's actions against unions an "assault", assault is what happened to lara logan.....but, i guess that would step on too many toes to point that out......angry extremist muslim men's toes ..that is.

a group obama has a lot in common with.

February 17, 2011 at 11:49 a.m.
pmcauley said...

I agree with BW. To the true 'birthers’ there will never be enough proof.

If I produce a birth certificate: it’s a forgery

If I produce the medical staff: they’re lying commie (a new favorite), anti-Semitic (has nothing to do with it), terrorist-loving liberals.

Photos can be doctored.

There will never be adequate proof for these people with hard-line extremist opinions.

  1. Head meet wall.
  2. Go to 1.
  3. Universal wisdom and happiness. pm
February 17, 2011 at 12:06 p.m.
Sailorman said...

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

A look at the crosstabs, re "Obama born in the US" shows: Base Dem Repub Ind/Other

Yes 28% 42% 27% 26%

No 51% 42% 53% 39%

Unsure 21% 16% 20% 35%

"PPP surveyed 400 Republican primary voters nationwide from February 11th to 13th. The survey’s margin of error is +/-4.9%. Other factors, such as refusal to be interviewed and weighting, may introduce additional error that is more difficult to quantify."

Seems like dems may have their share of non-believers as well. Anybody who believes Obama is not a citizen is a gullible fool. So is anybody who thinks this poll is meaningful.

"Public Policy Polling is avowedly pro-Democratic; it also prizes its reputation for reliability. Can it continue to juggle these two balls?"

A better question is why does this keep being brought up.

February 17, 2011 at 12:25 p.m.
mymy said...

The below site is an investment ad. It will take several minutes to get to the serious sales pitch-take it or leave it. The important part is the information before you reach it. Are we suffering from the Normacy Bias ( when it comes to our debt situation and the possible consequences? Food for thought as there is more to worry about than a birth certificate at this point. O's actions speak more to me than his slick words.

February 17, 2011 at 12:27 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Clara said: "And how about Michele Bachmann beating Obama in 2012? C:-)"

I seriously doubt Michele will run for President, Clara. From what I've read, she's been deeply depressed with the loss of so many of the Barney Madoff types. At the moment, she's totally focused on repealing Obama's Wall Street Reform Laws, and has pledged not to take on any more projects until she brings a little more banking and financial corruption back into her life.

February 17, 2011 at 12:35 p.m.
trburrows said...

obama was born in ha. they were not a state untill 1959. when was he born. simple math can fix the question.

February 17, 2011 at 1:25 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

He was born in the mid 60's.

February 17, 2011 at 1:28 p.m.
trburrows said...

then case closed. you have to have been born in the usa to be president. cite arnold s

February 17, 2011 at 1:42 p.m.
alprova said...

To be specific, he was born on August 4, 1961.

February 17, 2011 at 1:43 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Hawaii became our 50th State on August 21, 1959.

President Obama was born August 4, 1961.

February 17, 2011 at 1:45 p.m.
trburrows said...

al,bw, thanks, that should take care of that, at least on this thread.

February 17, 2011 at 1:53 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

"that should take care of that, at least on this thread."


February 17, 2011 at 1:59 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

I am certainly no supporter of Obama but I thought this issue was settled at least on this thread. Al, I remember you posting a link to a photograph of a copy of the Birth Certificate. Would you mind posting it again? Isn't this like beating a dead horse? I too believe someone is keeping this issue alive to detract from more real issues, CLAY.

February 17, 2011 at 2:02 p.m.
carlB said...

!THE REPUBS NEED TO JUST LAUGH IT OFF AND GET BACK TO THE REAL ISSUES!Stopping the spending machine and stopping the sneaked in taxes that are in new latest budget proposal. Username: tderng | On: February 17, 2011 at 9:47 a.m

Reply to tderng: Under normal conditions, what you say might work but not in this of "this age" where insinsuations and misinformation are continously being spread by the opponents of President Obama. At this time when it seems that too many of the people/voters do not want to hear the facts or the true information. This makes it necessary to denounce and counteract these types of tactics.

February 17, 2011 at 3 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

thanks TR.

February 17, 2011 at 3:19 p.m.
trburrows said...

nurse google obama birth c several will come up to choose from

February 17, 2011 at 3:29 p.m.
dedo77 said...

tderng -

Hey bud, not sure if you realize this or not, but heres a bit of history for you. Perspective helps, so take a look at the figures of this report issued in 2007:

About $3.2 trillion of our $8.9 trillion (as of 2007) total national debt has been accumulated during the past six years of the current Administration (at the time was GW Bush....good thing we had all those tax cuts for the rich during a time of war, the way...there had never been tax cuts during war time until GW..maybe that will open your eyes? Not surprised if it doesn't here is more!!)

• $4.2 trillion, or 83 percent, of the total debt owed to the public was accumulated under the past three Republican administrations. - [Remember folks, this is 2007, BEFORE the massive bailout was passed by the outgoing Bush Administration including TARP and the discount borrowing window for banks and corporations.

Over One-Third of the Total National Debt Has Been Incurred Under the Current Administration (the then GW Bush admin) • About $3.2 trillion of our $8.9 trillion total national debt has been accumulated during the first six years of the GW Bush Administration. • Almost three-quarters of the total national debt has been accumulated under the past three Republican administrations – Reagan, George Bush Sr., and the current George Bush. [Remember, this is a 2007 report]

source: United States Joint Economic it and weep!

Furthermore....when Reagen (whose been risen to deity status - not sure why..) the United States was the #1 creditor nation in the World. When he left office after is successive administrations, the US was the #1 debtor nation in the world....don't figure eh...?

So....tderng and all the other talking point casualties...inform yourself or remain slave to propaganda.

The talking point of being "fiscally conservative" sounds good, right...thats why they use it, because history and documented fact tell a totally opposite story. is the link:

Oh yea...and Francis...Christie has no chance....America will never elect a fat president, as sad as that is true. He doesn't look the part.

February 17, 2011 at 3:54 p.m.
trburrows said...

ha ha not electing a fat pres is funny but you know....i bet its true.

February 17, 2011 at 4:10 p.m.
Francis said...

anybody seen the wisconsin state democrats? i think they're heading out of state on a gosh democrats have no class...

no, dedo, christie won new jersey...he overcame all the union fat-asses, lazy state employees and dumb-ass democrats in that state....he's popular... he has a huge pun intended.....chris chritie is politically incorrect.. and the people of new jersey love him.......remember this..people know who obama is now....that's a problem...chris christie is a man, obama doesn't even wear the pants in his family.

if you libs think america isn't ready for a politically incorrect guy who has a sense of humor and a track record of leadership.....then you're dilussional. after four years of this scolding, sour, finger pointing grim reaper of a pres- ident he'll be very much in demand.

February 17, 2011 at 4:18 p.m.
tderng said...

dedo77, and how much has our debt grown in the last two years?

February 17, 2011 at 4:59 p.m.
tderng said...

dedo77,if you and your family are in a car going off a cliff do you turn the wheel or get out and help push it on off?

February 17, 2011 at 5:05 p.m.
canarysong said...

Dedo77, "America will never elect a fat president";

Unfortunately you are right. Elections today have become heavily funded beauty contests. Voters seem to care more about appearance than experience. Whoever can afford to hire the best handlers and sling the most dirt (true or not) often wins. A sad state of affairs. No wonder so many people become disillusioned and opt out of the process altogether. If appearance were not so overrated Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachman would never have come as far as they have. With all the bright, talented, and strong women in this country, it is a pity that these are the examples that our daughters see in American politics. Thank goodness for Hillary!

Francis, "Obama doesn't even wear the pants in his family";

I promised myself to never engage in any name-calling here, but you are a sexist jerk! Real men are strong enough to be equal partners with their spouses. I have a feeling that you are a bitter old man who lives alone. That would be a surprise! (not!)

February 17, 2011 at 5:25 p.m.
fairmon said...

We didn't vote to elect a pastor of a church. A majority obviously chose to believe Obama was a citizen or didn't really care about that technicality. I didn't care for either candidate but their birth place or religion had nothing to do with my conclusion. I have attended local RNC, DNC and tea party meetings just to hear what they had to say and see what kind of people were there. If you are familiar with a bell curve graph it would show a normal distribution of idiots and intelligent in each group. The tea party is a group well meaning people, the same as the RNC and DNC, with similar concerns and ideas about the direction of the country. I didn't see any radical behavior in any of the three groups meetings. I don't have the same opinion of any of these groups as many here.

I enjoy reading most of the post here but I have yet to see any viable proposal to address the debt issue. I see a lot attempts to justify why the government has to keep spending and others say lower taxes would work. The truth is The government could take 100% of every persons income this year and we are still in trouble. I see many post saying jobs have to be created but I see nothing posted as a workable way to do that. Could it be that we are all going to have to pay more taxes and that spending will have to be drastically reduced?

I saw an article that ratios the budget numbers and reductions down to compare the cuts to a monthly household budget of $2,000. That household would have to reduce their spending by 12 cents per month to equal the proposed government reductions. Better suck it up and cut your budget, do without it, or get a second job.

If you don't understand why it is critical that the dollar remain the world's reserve currency it would be worth your time to learn about it and the value of that status to the U.S.

February 17, 2011 at 5:36 p.m.
Francis said...

i just saw that those wisconsin state democrat senators may have driven over the border to a resort in illiniois.

wow...looks like not only are they not doing what t hey're paid to do, but they trying to have a good time doing it.

yeah..time for some grown both parties..

if chris christie can't win because he's fat, you dope, then how did he win in new jersey....which is a usually democrat territory? sorry, i don't buy it .

you, see...0bama is an elitest..christie is regular guy....enough with the elitest academician bull- ****......obama will lose.

February 17, 2011 at 5:40 p.m.
CP7768 said...

Francis, Show me the poll numbers that Chris Christie could "beat" Obama. "The people of New Jersey love him." Obviously since the people of New Jersey are a perfect cross-section of the rest of America, it makes total sense that he is "popular." "yes, smug, liberal can stay up to the wee hours tracking down poll numbers and crossing every t and dotting every i . . ." Research can do amazing things. Unless you actually have empiracal data to back up your outrageous statements (like alprova), then they are useless. Hitler could beat Obama. I don't have any data, but because I said it it must be true. Welcome to the world that Francis inhabits.

February 17, 2011 at 5:58 p.m.
Francis said...'re an idiot.......once again...christie won new jersey...if he can win new jersey he can win anywhere........

once again, i said obama does nt' wear the pants in his family...his wife does.. which means she's in charge...get it?......they're not equal partners...that's my belief.....and also the fact that she could kick his scrawny, nicotine stained ass.

wrong on all counts, donkey brain...i have two beautiful daughters and a great wife...who all laugh uncontrobaly at posts like yours.

i support my wife in everything she wants to do, i've watched every soccer game my daughters has ever played...every basketball game and every softball game...oh, and gymnastic events not only are you wrong, pea brain, you're dead wrong..

hillary! you dope, hillary is a political opportunist who allowed her husband to screw around on her in exchange for future support in running for office.

great example!! really good......that tells me a lot about you.

a good guess is that you're a liberal, a democrat and a feminist....

which makes you quite the hypocrite because all of those, especially feminists, are quite mute when it comes to the abuse of women and girls by muslims........where's michelle obama's, hillary clinton's, oprah winfrey's, and all the other dopey female liberals' crusade to stop the brutality unleashed by muslim men on women and girls? huh? instead we get michelle obama's crusade to get everyone to buy some obscure vegetable that only elitests have money to busy..

imagine if michelle obama would use her position to tear into the the abuse of women and girls around the muslim world. but, no...

your admiration for hillary clinton is the perfect example of why femists are screwed in the head..

it's one thing to be forgiving of a spouse for in-'s quite another to allow it to happen, with your daughters aware of it..over and over.. just so you can gain from it in the future...

yeah.....if you t hink hillary clinton is a better example to girls than bachman or palin, you most definately are a casualty of feminist movement.....

i will say this about hillary clinton...she has more cajones t han obama.

don't call her don't know her personally.

February 17, 2011 at 6:16 p.m.
trburrows said...

I enjoy reading most of the post here but I have yet to see any viable proposal to address the debt issue.

harp here is mine. cut the defense budget in half for one year. cut all foren/sp assistence in half for one year. and here is the good one. it wont happen, but listen, every body in the usa for one weekend/2 days, this could be any 2 days, stay home and burn no gas or go nowhere all in the same month. got any idea how much all this would save? I dont, but it would have to help.

February 17, 2011 at 6:22 p.m.
Francis said...

cp7768...why do i need poll numbers? it's my opinion that christie, with his no nonsense/regular guy approach/everyday guy...could beat obama. he could beat him in the south...and i mean every state in the south. he could beat him out west..except for californication...of course...he could beat him in the midwest....he doesn't talk to people like the commuist in chief....he doesn't mess around.......if phil bredesen would cross party lines...a christie/bredesen ticket would kick obama's ass.....

you libs need a poll to decide if you should use the can. you're pathetic..

once again...obama will have four years to's not looking good.

christie/bredesen...or christie/daniels...or huckabee/ many combos...

that's exactly it, new jersey represents an area that is extremely tough for a republican to win......obama's in trouble......the senate will be republican as well....but nobody will accept the same old democrats and the same old republicans any more....

February 17, 2011 at 6:34 p.m.
trburrows said...


if the repubs had a black to run for pres, would you vote for him.

February 17, 2011 at 6:44 p.m.
Francis said...

yes i would...very much problem at all ...i really liked j.c. watts.. i think it's too bad he's out of politics........i don't care if they're black, hispanic, a long as they're conservative....

i like tim scott, congressman from south carolina.

by the way,..the supreme court , i just read, will give obama's eligibility one more look.......i guess they're stupid too, huh?

i don't see them included in bennett's cartoon..

February 17, 2011 at 7:02 p.m.
trburrows said...

another look based on what? what part of his past are they going to look into?

February 17, 2011 at 7:04 p.m.
bret said...

If Obama was really born in Hawaii then why didn't the Hawaiian newspapers run birth notices that week??? Answer that, you Liberals!

What? They did run birth notices? Ooops.
Never mind.

February 17, 2011 at 7:14 p.m.
sd said...
February 17, 2011 at 7:43 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...


"..America will never elect a fat president, as sad as that is true. He doesn't look the part."

You might want to revise that comment to include the word "again" right after the fat president part.

See: "Big Bill" Taft, POTUS #27 1909-1913

He was over 300#s. (Some books say 340+)

He got stuck in the bathtub and subsequently had a seven foot long by three and one half foot tub installed.

He was the first POTUS to keep a car at the WH. He had the stables converted to a garage.

He was the last POTUS to keep a cow on the WH grounds for fresh milk. Her name was Pauline.

President Harding later nominated him to be Chief Justice of the SC, where he served from 1921 until shortly before his death in 1930 at age 72.

Reading history is fun.

Too bad about the prejudice against overweight folks.

I guess that is an example of PC bigotry.

February 17, 2011 at 7:43 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Francis, so disingenuous. You'd never vote for anyone who wasn't white and male. The eloquence of the present Commander in Chief is such a treat for those of us who were embarrassed by the previous 8 years of tough guy schoolyard syntax. We were all behind him that day he told us the terrorists would hear from all of us soon, and we end up in Iraq looking for even the smallest trace of WMD. TWO terms of that BS. Bin Laden is still alive, Francis, and people like you who can't admit they're ever wrong, are part of the reason. Your president will forever be saddled with the Tora Bora Mistake. Too conservative, like Bragg after Chickamauga.

February 17, 2011 at 8:11 p.m.
acerigger said...

I think I've found fran's source, just saw a clip from Faux Newz featuring KKKarl Rove saying ,almost word for word what fran's been spouting. co-incidence??

February 17, 2011 at 8:15 p.m.
trburrows said...

ace what you doin watchin fox

February 17, 2011 at 8:33 p.m.
fairmon said...


Good idea and would help but the dilemma is: o 1.1 trillion revenue from individual and corporate taxes. o 200 billion for government pensions o 400 billion for welfare o 700 billion for defense

This leaves a 200 billion annual short fall then you have other spending such as: o 200 billion per year interest on the debt at low rates. o all other and discretionary spending takes us to the proposed budget with some fees and other tax increases sprinkled around. To suggest holding spending to already unsustainable rates and slowing down debt growth just doesn't seem to be a healthy long term strategy.

February 17, 2011 at 8:34 p.m.
carlB said...

I enjoy reading most of the post here but I have yet to see any viable proposal to address the debt issue. Username: trburrows | On: February 17, 2011 at 6:22 p.m.

Reply to trburrows: You are correct, If there was anything mentioned about "debt" on this post I missed it. That might have been a good thing for this discussion There are other subjects and sites dealing with the "debt."

Interesting sites below China Helping Boost U.S. Economy Despite Currency Concerns

US National Debt Graph: What They Never Tell You

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8)

February 17, 2011 at 8:41 p.m.
canarysong said...


My condolences to the women who live with you.

I do regret calling you a sexist jerk. Although my opinion hasn't changed, I don't want to be dragged down to your level of name-calling.

"hillary is a political opportunist who allowed her husband to screw around on her in exchange for future support in running for office"

"if you think hillary clinton is is a better role model than bachman or palin "

"feminists are quite mute when it comes to the abuse of women and girls by muslims"

"instead we get michelle obama's crusade to buy some obscure vegetable"

"don't call her don't know her personally"

---2. She was 'Hillary' even on some of her own campaign ephemera.

"a good guess that you're a liberal, a democrat, and a feminist..."

February 17, 2011 at 8:51 p.m.
acerigger said...

TD, 'twas a "clip", I know people who DO watch it(Media Matters for one), so I don't have to. There are enough lies and mis-information around that I ain't gonna go lookin' for it.

February 17, 2011 at 9:07 p.m.
trburrows said...

harp as regard to forien/please spell this for me/aid, isreal=3 trillion, all arabs=5 trillion, south america=2 trillion, and there are many more countries up towards russia. surly this will ballance.

February 17, 2011 at 9:17 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Francis said: “I just saw that those Wisconsin state democrat senators may have driven over the border to a resort in Illinois.”

And what else did you read about what’s happening in Wisconsin, Francis? Aren’t you leaving a few little things out of the story about Wisconsin? I read over 30,000 protestors who didn’t like being told that they had NO RIGHT TO SPEAK AND PARTICIPATE in any collective bargaining activities surrounded the corporate headquarters of Wisconsin’s governor yesterday.

Of course, everyone, but Fox Theater and you knew that after the Supreme Court’s corporate "person-HOOD” ruling that it would just a matter of time before some Republican corporate lackey like Wisconsin’s Scott Walker would try to curb the free speech rights of “real people,” especially when it comes salaries – the “person-HOODS” and the banana republicans are determined to continue redistributing what little wealth is left in the U.S., and figure if they can bust that big state union up in Wisconsin, the rest of the country will be an easy ride.

Yes, Francis, ALL of the Democratic Senators are boycotting Wisconsin’s lackey governor, and he has a posse out searching for them – the sniveling twit. And the word is they have completely disappeared and nobody seems to know where they are. And needless to say, Utah’s Repub. Sen. Hatch is on another one of his hysterical rants and says that the state union workers up there in Wisconsin have NO RIGHT to exercise their right to Freedom of Assembly.

Now, see what you miss by watching nothing but Glenn Beck Theater, Francis?

February 17, 2011 at 10:30 p.m.
Francis said...

you bitter, bitter liberal, mountain laurel....the unions and democrats are revealing their true selves and their maturity level in wisconsin..which i'd say is at about 6th grade level......poor, poor state workers.....might have to sacrifice like the rest of us............unions are nothing but bullies and thugs now........looks like when the democrats don't get their way, it's time to storm the capital and use intimidation...i guess the democratic process isn't all it's cut out to be, huh?

no mountainlaurel..i don't have listen or watch anything other than what's going on's reality.......

the governor...who won an election...the person you refer to as a lackey.. is asking state workers to make some sacrifices....but..nnnnoooooooooo,., they're sacred cows......i guess we should just shut up , and even though we're hurting, we have to continue to make sure state workers, who make a heck of a lot more than most people.......keep on getting what they are "entitled" to....

you democrats are looking...reallly really bad in t his......republicans won control of the state senate and house in wisconsin..and the governorship.. why don't they respect that? we had to accept obama and the dems controlling the house and senate...

state workers are employees of the state....duh.....the governor is their boss......nobody has sympathy for cry babies who make really, really good money and benefits ...and complain.....

i think wisconsin will stay republican for a while

February 17, 2011 at 11:14 p.m.
fairmon said...


I agree, too much foreign aid. I think those numbers may be billions which is still huge when all receiving countries are included. Africa is a major recepient. Our weakening dollar has some suggesting the amount should be increased since the dollar buying power is less. It is out of hand and no one seems to be including it in their proposals or response to a proposal. Why do we need an embassy in most every country in the world? What is the return on that investment. An ambassodorship is normally a political pay off and the apointee didn't even know where the country was before they were apointed.

It would seem to me the outflow to other countries would be reduced or eliminated. Local communities need to handle and take care of their own welfare needs and education. The federal government is so huge, cumbersome and wasteful no one or not even a few can comprehend it. Over 30 million employees excluding the military and contracted work is not a manageable situation.

February 17, 2011 at 11:40 p.m.
fairmon said...


I know you are busy but get your facts straight before reaching those conclusions about Wisconsin's situation and action. They have a 6.4 billion deficit and already have one of the highest tax rates in the country. What do you think they should do? I don't agree with everything they are doing but having the unions negotiate with the mayors of the cities paying the bills is not unreasonable. Adjusting benefits, not pay, to be closer to the private sector is something needed in the federal government and local and state governments. Something is wrong when government employees are compensated significantly better than those paying for it. I would bet 95% locally have no idea what their current and future obligations are to fund local government employee pensions.

I don't begrudge anyone getting paid well and better than me if it is affordable. If you had the authority to fix the economy, balance the budget and pay the debt so it isn't passed on to your children and generations to come what would you do? Your being liberal is fine as long as you are not being liberal for me and mine as well. Conservative I am not and resent those that think everyone has to fit their mold of being one or the other.

February 18, 2011 at 12:01 a.m.
alprova said...

Nurseforjustice wrote: "I am certainly no supporter of Obama but I thought this issue was settled at least on this thread. Al, I remember you posting a link to a photograph of a copy of the Birth Certificate. Would you mind posting it again?"

Not at all. Here is the two most conclusive pages of evidence in existence;

February 18, 2011 at 12:18 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Mountainlaurel and Harp, here's my take on Wisconsin.

Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker wants to strip collective bargaining rights from public employees in a Bill that critics call pure partisan politics.

The first term Republican insists that the measures will save the state $300 million for a budget facing a $3.1 billion deficit. Public employees will also contribute 5.8 percent to their pensions and state workers will pay 12.6 percent of their health insurance.

Especially hard hit was the teacher’s union. Under the new bill, besides losing the right to negotiate, each district will now decide each teacher’s salary.

Walker earlier had passed a sweeping $140 million tax cut aimed at GOP friendly businesses. This new bill provides make up money for lost tax revenue while simultaneously gutting Unions that traditionally support Democratic candidates.

That's known as a GOP two-fer.

Union representatives stated publicly that they were willing to negotiate benefit packages and other compensation to cut costs. In past years, for instance, the Teacher's union had agreed to lower salaries in exchange for other benefits like additional sick days.

Not all Unions felt Walker's wrath, however. State troopers, fire fighters, and local police were spared monetary cuts and retained their collective bargaining rights. Supporters said it was the Governor's way of acknowledging the important role each group plays in the general welfare all of citizens.

'Ironically,' state troopers, fire fighters, and local police were also the only public employee unions that endorsed Walker for Governor.

February 18, 2011 at 12:48 a.m.
Clara said...

I thought I read somewhere, several days ago, that it wasn't only the Wisconson Govt.workers that were due to lose their pensions or retirement, but the non-govt. workers as well.

I will accept correction, gladly. Sorry, I can't remember the details and have been too busy to follow up.

February 18, 2011 at 1:01 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: "Get your facts straight before reaching those conclusions about Wisconsin . . . Your being liberal is fine as long as you are not being liberal for me and mine as well."

Actually, Harp3339, I think it’s best to know specifically where the money is coming from BEFORE you commit to any contract – especially long-range contracts involving funds in the future.

As for Wisconsin's Governor Walker, I'd say it's not particularly wise to rush to provide sweeping tax cuts for the business sector, and then try to make it up by putting it on the backs of public employees. He should have made some effort to seek a middle ground.

As for conservatives VS liberal thinking, I believe the actions of the Bush/Cheney administration pretty much says it all in regard to “the conservative philosophy” in regard to debts, deficits and borrowing beyond your means. Seems to me this is when our financial problems all started.

February 18, 2011 at 1:30 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

I've always thought of folks who leave their trash laying around for others to pick up as irresponsible trash themselves.


Shouldn't these folks be fined for littering?

Just goes to show the respect for public property held by union lackeys, and the left in general.

Over 1100 teachers called in sick. The schools had to be closed.

Every single one of them who cannot produce a doctors note should be fired post haste.


No one is losing their pensions, they are being asked to fund a higher percentage of it themselves, and to pay a slightly higher portion of their health care coverage as well.

The only thing they will lose is their ability to demand wage increases by threatening strikes which shut down the schools.(Putting the childrens' education first, of course) Future wage increases will be decided by the taxpayers of Wis., who fund those wages, via referendum.

This is nothing more than a display of petulance by a small number of folks whose voices have been overwhelmed at the ballot box by other folks who pay their salaries and who are insisting on fiscal responsibility by electing state officials who are not union stooges.

The remaining stooges are in hiding.

February 18, 2011 at 1:31 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

mtnlrl wrote,

"Seems to me this is when our financial problems all started." r.e. the GWB administration

It seems to me that you haven't a clue what you are talking about. The structural elements which now require huge deficit spending were in place long before the year 2001.

Perhaps you should turn off the T.V. and read some books on 20th century U.S. history so that you might better comprehend exactly when those items that dominate the federal budget were put in place.

P.S. W wasn't a fiscal conservative. As I recall, the term that was bandied about during the 2000 election campaign was "compassionate conservative", which is just another term for "big spending statist".

February 18, 2011 at 1:43 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

The Answer: Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Shrub.

The Question: Which three Presidents created the biggest budget crisis in American history?

February 18, 2011 at 1:59 a.m.
pmcauley said...

I like that, I never heard of Bush lite referred to as Shrub.

Thumbs up! pm

February 18, 2011 at 6:57 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

PM, Molly Ivans, the late reporter for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, wrote a book entitled, "Shrub," after the name of Bush's old company, "Arbusto." (Bush thought it was the spanish word for 'bush.' It actually translates to 'shrub.') Bush, it turns out, was an oil men who couldn't find oil in Texas. Back in the day - when his father was Vice President - he often went by George Bush, Jr. It helped attract outside investors, it looked good on company letterhead, and it also encouraged his father's supporters to step in when business dealings went south. Good read and it explains a LOT about his presidency.

February 18, 2011 at 7:29 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

HARP3339 SAID: “Get your facts straight before reaching those conclusions about Wisconsin's situation and action. They have a 6.4 billion deficit and already have one of the highest tax rates in the country.”

If it’s facts you want to pass on, I think you should mention that 2/3 of the corporations in Wisconsin DON’T PAY ANY TAXES, which has to play a big role in any state’s deficit. Would it not?

HARP3339 SAID: “Adjusting benefits, not pay, to be closer to the private sector is something needed in the federal government, local and state governments.”

And which private sector are you referencing. You obviously are not referring to the banking, Wall Street, and corporate sectors. I say this because the average pension of state employees in Wisconsin is $24,500, and 15% of this money is being paid to Wall Street to manage the money.

Got to go. . . perhaps, more later, Harp3339.

February 18, 2011 at 7:45 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

What's going on in Wisconsin is little more than a political knife fight. I have my doubts whether there really is a dire financial crisis. This is from a January 31, 2011 report from the 'Legislative Fiscal Bureau,' (a CBO type agency on the State level):

"Annually, this office prepares general fund revenue and expenditure projections for the Legislature prior to commencement of legislative deliberations on the state's budget.

"In the odd-numbered years, our report includes estimated revenues and expenditures for the current fiscal year and tax collection projections for each year of tpresents the conclusions of our analysis...

"Based upon the November/December reports, the administration's general fund condition statement for 2010-11 reflects a gross ending balance (June 30, 2011) of $67.4 million and a net balance (after consideration of the $65.0 million required statutory balance) of $2.4 million.

"Our analysis indicates a GENERAL FUND GROSS BALANCE of $121.4 million and a NET BALANCE of $56.4 million. This is $54.0 million above that of the administration's reports."

This is as far as my investigation got. I know the Governor passed tax cuts for business which would cost the state around $140 million in revenue, but the numbers don't add up. This doesn't look like Wisconsin is about to declare bankruptcy.

It looks like Walker has already declared war on public service employees in general, and their Unions in particular. Especially and exclusively the ones who traditionally support Democrats.

The only three Unions excluded from this bill, the only three Unions who would not loose their right to bargain collectively, endorsed Walker for Governor.

February 18, 2011 at 8:06 a.m.
alprova said...

Scotty recklessly wrote: "Just goes to show the respect for public property held by union lackeys, and the left in general."

Scott, are you asserting that EVERY member of ANY union are pathological litterers? Are you further asserting that anyone who is Liberal has the same disorder?

I think the better explanation is that someone has a wee bit too much time on their hands, who thinks it is their mission in life to follow around people to photograph litter. I also bet that they are more than a little biased in what they upload on the internet as well.

"Over 1100 teachers called in sick. The schools had to be closed.

Every single one of them who cannot produce a doctors note should be fired post haste."

Thankfully, that's not your call and your hypocrisy is noted for the record.

Wasn't it a month ago that you were arguing that people who spend lots of cash to learn a trade, deserve a higher compensation package, while those who are not educated are doomed to live on less? I'm pretty sure you did.

How many firemen and law enforcement personnel in Wisconsin mortgaged their futures by attending a college for four to eight years? Very few.

Yet, their compensation packages were not touched. Do you see the problem? No you don't. That's because the teachers did not support the Governor when he was running, but the aforementioned group of workers did support the man.

Added to that, is the fact that I have yet to meet a Republican who does not love to gut education FIRST anytime budgets are in question and in need of trimming.

"This is nothing more than a display of petulance by a small number of folks whose voices have been overwhelmed at the ballot box by other folks who pay their salaries and who are insisting on fiscal responsibility by electing state officials who are not union stooges."

Well eventually, when enough people are left with cleat marks on their backs by employers with your attitude, the pendulum will swing back for another hundred years, when people vote to bring back unions. You're going to cough up more to keep a workforce or else. And that will be the case whether you have to bargain with your workers or not.

That you can count on. It happened once. It will happen again. And nothing will stop it either when workers get fed up with being treated like slaves.

Let the unemployment ease just a bit more, and you will see it for yourself.

Based on what you write, you're either a B.S. artist, or your an employees nightmare of a boss. Either way, you're going to eat your own words eventually.

Bon Appetit!

February 18, 2011 at 8:28 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

I have the solution to cut at least $100 billion from the budget and it wouldn't be at all painful for the average U.S. citizen. If Congress is serious about cutting wasteful spending the Defense Budget should be first up on the operating table.

We could cut tons of brass from the Pentagon and not lose one ounce of military efficiency.

And that's just for starters. I ran across an article that said this:

"...According to the Pentagon, the cost of the Afghan War in 2012 will be around $300 million a day or $107.3 billion for the year," and the Pentagon usually lowballs their projections. "Other estimates put our war costs there as high as $120-$160 billion."

After almost ten years in the Country that broke the back of the Soviet Union and hastened its downfall, we still don't have an objective, a strategy to reach that 'goal,' or an exit strategy. Let's get the hell out of Afghanistan.

I know we can't logistically pack up today and bring everybody home tomorrow, but we can at least declare victory (however that word is defined these days) and start to wrap things up. The Afghan government is traditionally corrupt. They operate through bribes, favors, and back room deals. The last General to conquer Afghanistan was Alexander the Great.

It's already cost us too much blood and too much treasure.

Other big savings could come from closing unnecessary military bases overseas. We have American soldiers stationed over there in case the U.S.S.R. invades Europe. What are those bases costing us? Why do we have troops in Japan? (Go ahead start naming all the countries where we have troops and then ask yourself why.)

Cutting government waste, closing corporate loopholes, and trimming domestic programs would only strengthen our long term monetary policy and start to bring our bloated budget under control.

Here's the key phrase: 'If Congress is serious.'

February 18, 2011 at 9:04 a.m.
limric said...

The long hunt for a new 2012 Republican Presidential candidate has at last come to an end, and the winner isn't Rush Limbaugh, Mitt Romney, or even Sarah Palin, but it is a the man in the cellar. His name is Francis: He's paranoid, he's deranged, and he's as American as Andrew Jackson and the rebel yell. The nutty right will not get over the landslide election of a black man as president, and their centuries-old legitimacy is in question as it never has been since Appomattox. So they are desperately projecting that self-doubt onto reality itself. Of course, Francis couldn't scream the N-word in a Tea Party rally, so he’s screaming about his birth certificate. Lee Atwater called this shot nearly three decades ago, when he explained how the Republican Party should parse its racism for the 20th century and beyond: Since he can't come right out nowadays and say the 'N' word. So he say’s stuff like forced busing, states' rights, and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about birth certificates, Islam, 'Socialist agenda' And now, finally, things have become so algebraic that the he goes totally into denial, refusing to see a notarized public document as it's waved right under his noses. Francis, your whole argument falls into ridicule. You birthers go beyond simple conspiracy theories--you're cast members of the ongoing American denying-reality show, like the folks who deny the moonlanding or the Holocaust. Charging that Obama is utterly undocumented, is just like the Creationists who insist that the Earth is but 6,000 years old, the Teabaggers who wish to take America back to 1820 and refuse to believe they must pay taxes, the 9/11 Truthers who say the government attacked the Twin Towers, When I listen to people like you Francis I think maybe you and your brethren are subscribers to some sub-catechism about the birth of Christ or an offshoot of the anti-abortion movement--pro-life, pro-birth. Which makes sense: The Bircher, er, Birther movement is born from the same psychology that can trace social unease to a single issue--if we could only stop abortion, we could turn the clock back to Father Knows Best; if we could only prove that Barack Obama was "born in Kenya," his presidency would go away and White Power would be restored. It's great to dream the American Dream, and the right of an individual to pursue whatever fantasy he or she wants is what makes us so admired around the world. There's nothing wrong with dressing up in Confederate grey and re-enacting your defeat—just stay in the cellar and don't impose such nonsense the rest of us as fact. Unless you’re in it for comedic effect – of which you have been quite successful.

P.S. Even Karl Rove recently acknowledged that President Obama "was born in Hawaii."

February 18, 2011 at 9:21 a.m.
tderng said...

BW WROTE:'Ironically,' state troopers, fire fighters, and local police were also the only public employee unions that endorsed Walker for Governor. Sounds just like what Obama has done with the healthcare bill by giving out exemptions for people who donated to him.I guess its ok for the democrats to do it but if republicans do it its somehow wrong?

February 18, 2011 at 9:50 a.m.
carlB said...

Username: blackwater48 | On: February 18, 2011 at 9:04 a.m.

REply to blackwater48: Now "they" say we are fighting the wrong people in Afghanistan.

February 18, 2011 at 9:55 a.m.
pmcauley said...

tderng: and exactly how did Obama manage to get his donor list in the legislation? I think even the dim-bulb-republicans would have noticed that legere de main.

February 18, 2011 at 10:22 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

TD wrote, "I guess its ok for the democrats to do it but if republicans do it its somehow wrong?"

As far as the health care bill is concerned the Health Insurance Companies want every American to buy insurance from them. They didn't want a public option - like Medicare for everyone - competing and driving down premiums. They got it and yet they still overwhelmingly support the GOP. So, if a Republican calls for an insurance mandate, as many did as far back as Nixon, it's okay but if a Democrat wants the same thing it's suddenly "Unconstitutional?"

As far as Wisconsin is concerned I wasn't picking sides. I was trying to explain what's really going on: Republicans trying to bust Unions that traditionally support Democrats.

February 18, 2011 at 10:23 a.m.
miraweb said...

I've never been too worried about the tin-foil hat crowd expressing something truly nutty. Does little harm and keeps them off the streets.

I am bothered by a supposedly legitimate media and political parties using their oversized megaphones to stir the pot around fake issues when there are real problems that need real solutions.

Sixteen million people need a job. How about a little time on that?

February 18, 2011 at 10:33 a.m.
carlB said...

Note: Here is the U-Tube site address for the other site I posted above. The first posted site did not work for me.

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8)

February 18, 2011 at 10:37 a.m.
Francis said...

you, know limric, you stupid liberal...i wrote a while back that obama was probably born on u.s. point being that he is keeping it going.. it's an easy thing to settle...just settle it. everyone else has to produce a birth certificate for all kinds of thing.......liberalism is a disease...i'm convinced..

the supreme court is going to have a conference on the matter........are they all crazy too?

now.....regarding the chaos in wisconsin....there for the whole world to see, the madness of the enititlement class,.....throwing a huge tantrum because the governor is asking them to make sacrifices because those who are paying their salaries and wages...the tax payers...are hurting because of he economy.

those arrogant, pompous, elitest, spoiled babies, the teachers and state workers......expect those..who have virtually no security, no guarantees of anything..who make far less than they continue to subsidize their cushy packages.........the height of selfishness..........this is where unions have gone...shame on them

what a display of immaturity....and you dems, libs and unions own it. running away because you don't want to face a vote??? taking a bus out of town..........damn......there are no words to describe how bad that looks...

obama is an absolute jackass for just jumping to their defense asap...just a jackass......he needs union thuggery to keep his power...what an imcom- petant fool..........where's the leadership.........the governor of wisconsin is the polar opposite of obama.......and that would be man who does what needs to be done.

you democrats, unions and libs are look like like crap right now.....

and i must say, i'm rather enjoying it.

February 18, 2011 at 11:17 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Miraweb said, "Sixteen million people need a job. How about a little time on that?"

A good question, so I started looking for articles that addressed unemployment. I found an article by David Corn which includes a phone interview with former Reagan Budget Director David Stockman. The first part of the article is typical left wing fodder but Stockman provides some perspective.

While Stockman disagrees with much of today's GOP economic strategy, he also opposed Obama's Stimulus package. The article doesn't address the employment issue directly, but it does offer some insight at how difficult it will be to get anything done in our current political climate.


February 18, 2011 at 11:31 a.m.
acerigger said...

"Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

"The state of Wisconsin has not reached the point at which austerity measures are needed," Norman adds." hey y'all,they're trying to do the same thing in Nashville.

February 18, 2011 at 11:31 a.m.
Francis said...

what about the children???........get back to work you state workers and glad for what you have....

if obama had an ounce of wisdom he would say that the governor and the state are in a tough spot....we all have to make sacrifices at this time.. that includes those working for the state.......we're all in this together.. you can't expect those who are making less and have lost their jobs to carry the load.....

for obama and the media to say this is an assualt on unions or anti-union is just an attempt to inflame the situation .....obama is a thug who loves chaos......whch is right from the radical's handbook....obama loves to divide. he loves this......he's a punk.........

only a dumb ass or a thug would look at the situation in wisconsin and say it's anti-union....

February 18, 2011 at 11:38 a.m.
BobMKE said...

Gov. Scott Walker had a 1½ year job interview before he was elected. When he was the Milwaukee County Executive (8 years) he did exactly what he said he would do. He said what he would do as the Governor and he is. Why the surprise now? The State of Wisconsin is no longer going to be the hooker collecting for her pimp by collecting union dues from the checks the State sends out. No more “closed shop” and public employees can decide if they want to join a union and can not be forced to join a union. Unions in the past have served a noble cause in the past but are now becoming a dinosaur. We now have laws prohibiting what employers did to their employees in the past. In the 50’s 37% of workers belonged to unions. Now 7% - 10% in the private sector are unionized. At GM $70.00 to put parts on a car is ridiculous and GM should not have been bailed out by “Government Motors.” The public sector unions have held a gun to the tax payers head and they pushed the envelope and now they have lost. The public sector unions have the money to have the politicians, school boards, do their bidding, and the vast majority are Democrats. The unions have become collection agencies for the Democrat Party. What Governor Walker is doing what he said that he would do and this will spend to other States and hopefully to Washington. Wisconsin will be the test tube for the rest of the nation and this will spend across the nation just like what is going on in the Middle East. In Wisconsin the average teacher’s salary is $60,000.00 a year and what is asked of them is for them to pay 12.5% of their healthcare cost (not of their pay) and 5.8% to their pension (not of their pay). So on a $50,000.00 salary they would now would to have to pay $5, 800.00 extra a year. This is way less than other public employees pay in other States and way less than the private section has to pay.

February 18, 2011 at 12:09 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Cont' The private sector would be very happy to help pay for half of their retirement to have a rock solid retirement not to mention the public employees can retire in their 50’s, then flee the State and take their money with them. If the unions don’t agree to the bill then the State would have to lay off up to 10,000 public employees and Gov. Walker does not want to do this because it is not necessary. In Wisconsin numerous major companies have left the State under Gov. “Diamond” Jim Doyle and others have given back to stay in the State like the Koehler, Harley Davidson, and Mercury Marine companies. Numerous teachers have called in sick and went to Madison to protest, which caused numerous school districts to close, and they said it’s for the children. They told their students to leave the school building to go outside to protest and when students stayed in the classroom so the teacher would have to teach the teacher said, “why do you hate me.” Teachers in Madison took their young students to protest without parent’s permission. The teachers have to realize that they are teachers 190 days a year and taxpayer’s 365 days a year. They do not realize how good they have had it for decades. The protesting teachers in Madison, who are having temper tantrums, are causing damage, being disruptive, getting arrested, carrying signs with threatening messages, and they are acting just like the Tea Party people were falsely accused of acting. What hypocrisy. The protesters have said that “we don’t have a spending problem, we have a revenue problem.” So they want to raise taxes on everyone because they are more special than the private sector. The polls back Gov. Walker and the teachers and the unions have just created a political PR nightmare for themselves. Bob from Wisconsin

February 18, 2011 at 12:11 p.m.
canarysong said...

blackwater48, re 9:04am post;

Thank you for bringing up the high cost of maintaining our military bases oversees. I heard someone recently comment that if we really want to be serious about reducing our spending, then we have to be willing to give up our 'empire', referring to our vast network of military bases around the world. When we are considering cuts in Social Security, Medicare, education, and other vital programs it is ridiculous not to put this on the table as well.

In 2009 the number of US military bases abroad stood at 737, in 63 countries. The Defense Department records its expenses in such a way that makes it impossible to know exactly what the costs of maintaining these bases are, but conservative estimates put it at approximately 250 billion(!) dollars annually. (I don't know why this won't post the entire URL, but it is the article on the Foreign Policy in Focus website by Anita Dancs 'The Cost of the Global US Military Presence')

It has been called the US' largest jobs program. While no one would argue that we need jobs, just think of the good that could be done if those resources were put toward creating jobs within the US to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure, to build clean energy-efficient mass transit systems, to transition to sustainable alternative energy sources, and to revitalize our inner cities. Those would be jobs programs in which young people would walk away with technical skills that would enable them to acquire good jobs in the 'civilian' world. And we would all benefit from the work that was done during their service.

We spend as much on defense as the next 15 highest-spending countries COMBINED! Surely there is plenty of room here to cut and still keep our country safe.

limric; Enjoyed reading your post!

February 18, 2011 at 12:24 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

ScottyM said: “W wasn't a fiscal conservative.”

As I recall, l there was less than a handful of elected Republican representatives who complained about W’s spending and borrowing habits during the Bush/Cheney presidency – the majority of Republicans were with Bush/Cheney all the way and some of them are still in office today. In fact, both men appear to still be getting a lot of invitiations to so called “fiscal conservative” events, especially former V.P Dick Cheney who once told Paul O’Neill:

“You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.” [Price of Loyalty – Paul O’Neill]

February 18, 2011 at 12:25 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

From an article by Michael Winship published today"

"Although Governor Walker claims Wisconsin is in desperate financial straits, the state had been coping better than most and, according to Madison's Capital Times newspaper "has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus."

The paper editorialized, "To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker's new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the 'crisis' would not exist... Unfortunately, Walker has a political agenda that relies on the fantasy that Wisconsin is teetering on the brink of bankruptcy."

February 18, 2011 at 1:14 p.m.
limric said...

Francis Francis Francis. How sad it is to read your fact less diatribes. Self-aggrandizing denunciations of everything that doesn’t fit into his narrow view is a sure sign that he is (as are all Republicans) afraid of everything and threatened by anyone that is not ‘us’. Those “arrogant, pompous, elitist, spoiled babies you speak of – those WE continue to subsidize their cushy packages - the height of selfishness are the political and financial (ie. Wall Street) elites. Your commentary is the best evidence yet that their propaganda has been wildly successful. You are a (un) willing participant in the dumbing down of America to the point of Idiocracy. Lets review. Job: Weapons manufacturer CEO. Impact: Perpetuates destruction and bleeds the treasury. Pay scale: sweeeet. Job: Madison Avenue advertiser. Impact: Cheapens and commercializes our culture. Pay: A cool million+ per year. Job: Corporate hatchet man. Impact: Liquidates and outsources jobs overseas. Pay: So high, you could plotz. Job: School teacher. Impact: Molds the next generation. Pay: Squat.
Which has a more positive role in society? Which should earn more? Why do you think it the middle class that is soft and greedy and not the billionaires on Wall Street, that bled you dry --- behavior rewarded by you paying them a bonus is OK. ( I can read between the lines) Lauding the destruction of unions and the middle class IS a class war you have been drafted into fighting by the elites and in the long run will result in a lowering of your income, lifestyle, liberties and those of your children.
The Revolution will be televised.

February 18, 2011 at 1:54 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Limric, you'd have better luck trying to reason with mayonnaise.

Francis, some suspect, is a liberal plant who simply rants to stir things up and garner outraged response.

Others believe he is a true believer, who could actually be the inspiration for the cartoon. Either way you're wasting your time.

As one who has wasted plenty of time responding to his swill let me offer some words of advice. You'd spend your time more productively banging your head against the wall. And you would feel better when you finished.

February 18, 2011 at 2:09 p.m.
Francis said...

reason? mean accept what you say......and that's it...kind of like the way obama approaches things....which is why you love the guy so much..

i love the wisconisn governor......he gets the job done.........

here's the difference between a democrat and a republican....

democrats demand that they get something because they're entitled to it, and they'll demand that it's guaranteed for life...or else!

republicans don't believe they're entitled to anythiing, have to earn it and that nothing is guaranteed.

that is being played out in wisconsin right now.

these democrat/obama fueled union, teacher, state employee tantrums guarantee obama will lose in 2012.

February 18, 2011 at 2:47 p.m.

mountainlaurel wrote: "redistributing what little wealth is left in the U.S."

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your understanding of wealth?

February 18, 2011 at 2:49 p.m.
acerigger said...

" The fact is, Walker is carrying out the wishes of his corporate master, David Koch, who calls the tune these days for Wisconsin Republicans. Walker is just one among many Wisconsin Republicans supported by Koch Industries -- run by David Koch and his brother, Charles -- and Americans For Prosperity, the astroturf group founded and funded by David Koch. The Koch brothers are hell-bent on destroying the labor movement once and for all.

During his election campaign, Walker received the maximum $15,000 contribution from Koch Industries, according to Think Progress, and support worth untold hundreds of thousands from the Koch-funded astroturf group, Americans For Prosperity. AlterNet recently reported the role of Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus and Americans For Prosperity in a vote-caging scheme apparently designed to suppress the votes of African-Americans and college students in Milwaukee. In 2008, Walker served as emcee for an awards ceremony held by Americans For Prosperity. There, he conferred the "Defender of the American Dream" award on Rep. Paul Ryan, now chairman of the House Budget Committee.

But this isn't a local thing. It's a national campaign:

It's said that states are the laboratories of democracy, but the Kochs are determined to make Wisconsin a laboratory of corporate oligarchy. Nationwide, the war on public workers -- and government in general -- is not simply a facet of an ideological notion about the virtues of small government. The war on government is a war against the labor movement, which has much higher rates of union membership in the public sector than it does in the private sector.

Labor is seen by corporate leaders as the last strong line of resistance against the wholesale takeover of government (and your tax dollars) by corporations. So, by this line of thought, labor must die." ht;Adele Stan
February 18, 2011 at 2:49 p.m.
BobMKE said...

It is not want you want, it’s what the company, state, or government can afford. Who is the little guy here, the public union members or the taxpayers? The answer is both of them, but they have to respect each other. The private employees can not hold a gun to the owner’s head and demand things like the public sector can. Again the public sector pays the politicians to do their bidding and they take the money. An elected person serves their people best when they do what is right for their City/Village/Town, School Board, County, State or Country, not for their party. Welcome to the wrecking, so goes Wisconsin, so goes the rest of the nation.

February 18, 2011 at 2:59 p.m.
greenj76 said...

Obama would have protestants put to death if he had his way. He wants everyone to wrap their head and read the Qur'an.

February 18, 2011 at 3:14 p.m.
limric said...

You conservatives and your failed ideology have run America into the ground, and it always will. How can it not? It's a governing philosophy based on myth, used to concentrate power in the hands of the few to the detriment of the many- exactly the opposite of what was intended by the founding fathers. The tenets of the Conservative movement and all its variations are not based on facts or evidence, but instead upon myths perpetrated by those who wish to keep others from achieving what is rightfully theirs in a true Democracy. The myth of the unregulated ‘free market’, the ‘invisible hand,’ the myth that the poor are so because they are lazy, unions are the cause of America’s financial woes, the myth that anyone can succeed in America if only they 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps,' the myth that if everyone looks after their own self-interests, then somehow, magically, everyone will succeed, except those who are not worthy to begin with— teachers, the elderly, the sick, the indigent. The ridiculous ‘trickle-down’ theory, or supply-side economics, which George H. W. Bush rightly called ‘voodoo economics,’ the idea that what’s good for corporations is good for America and that ‘a rising tide lifts all boats,’ have all proven to be laughable (if only they weren't so sad) theories put in place by one small group of people to keep others beholden and reliant. And the fact that the chickens keep voting for Colonel Sanders makes these phenomena that much more disturbing. Conservatism is inherently anti-democratic. The experiment that began with Reagan, perfected under Bush has done irreparable harm to the country. The revolution will be televised.

February 18, 2011 at 4:03 p.m.
limric said...

"Limric, you'd have better luck trying to reason with mayonnaise." Dang blackwater, that's really funny. Thanks for that. :-D

February 18, 2011 at 4:08 p.m.
Clara said...

Francis, I hesitate to answer your post, but here goes.

You wrote, "republicans don't believe they're entitled to anything, have to earn it and that nothing is guaranteed."

Can you really claim that all those CEO's with their millions of dollars in bonuses earned them?

Don't bother to answer, as you'd only call me names. Snort!

Sorry Blackwater, I've managed to not get involved up to now, but that's because now I'm sick and my resistance is low! Your advice to limric was excellent.

February 18, 2011 at 4:11 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Milwaukee Bob says, "An elected person serves their people best when they do what is right for their City/Village/Town, School Board, County, State or Country, not for their party."

You must agree, then, with this quote from Winship: "To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January."

Walker and the Republican Legislature want to gut Unions that support Democratic candidates. Not all Unions. Just the ones who don't support Republicans. Walker is enforcing the Republican Party agenda, which isn't necessarily what's right for Wisconsin.

Glad you agree Bob.

February 18, 2011 at 4:15 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Clara, I wish I took my own advice more often. I've been fighting a nasty cold/flu thing I've dubbed 'The Clu,' for three weeks. I hope you feel better sooner than I did.

Limric, you're welcome, and again, I wish I always took my own advice.

February 18, 2011 at 4:21 p.m.
jimbob said...

francis,Why don't you do us all a favor and shut the hell up. by the way none of us has seen your birth certifcate.

February 18, 2011 at 4:47 p.m.
fairmon said...


Excellent video regarding exponential growth. That is the way Warren Buffet became so wealthy. Calculate the results if your and your employers social security contributions were invested in an insured (U.S. treasuries or similar investments) in a ROTH account at just 5% per year for 48 years. You could then buy a principle guaranteed annuity paying 8% per year for the rest of your life. Much, much better than the current ponzi scheme called social security. Medicare is a totally different issue although those in congress like to lump it in with social security.

This video should be required viewing for every student and political office holder. I would expect some to deny the math because it is not what they want to hear. 3% inflation will result in doubling of prices each 20 years or so or at least 3x in a typical life time.

This supports my contention that Chattanooga does not need to grow at the rate Littlefield and his council rave about and their reason for increased taxes, sewer rates, fees etc. Why? perhaps they should look at how to not grow rapidly but how to maintain a better and safe city.

The national debt is a good example of the exponential factor at work. It is double what it was in total from George Washington to about 5 years ago. The proposed budget to slow debt growth is not enough. Our system will implode at some point. Neither party has a grasp of the problem or the wherewithal to inflict the pain on us that would be required.

February 18, 2011 at 5:37 p.m.
Francis said...

i didn't realize you had the power to shut me up... how do you plan to do that?

you sound like obama now.

and what should i shut up about? i make many good case you haven't noticed, this is forum for comments...not a forum to kiss up t o liberals like you.

typical liberal...


why do you assume all of those ceo's are republican? stupid assumption.

many ceo's , who have made a lot of money.....gave a lot of money to the democrat party...

i suppose all of those bonuses that gm/government motors pays out are just fine ,huh......double standard.

by the way...if obama's eligibility were not an issue at all.....why would the supreme court even bother to waste any time on it?

not such a stupid thing after it.?

here's a great ticket....christie/walker....... looks so good after obumble's reign of terror.

by the way...i read the average salary of teachers in $100.00 hmmmmm....and the schools are shut down there now.....must be tough trying to maked it on $100.00 a year..not to mention benefits.....

oh, you smug's never for it.

February 18, 2011 at 5:38 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Blackwater48 You obtained your information from the Madison paper which is false.. Madison is part of Dane County which is one of the most liberal Counties in the US. IF you have the time please go on line to today's Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (We call it the Milwaukee Urinal) Even they have opinions and fact checks on the situation in Madison that are mostly for Gov. Walker and that is very surprising to us.

February 18, 2011 at 8:11 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis pointed out, "by the way...i read the average salary of teachers in $100.00."

Wow, no wonder you, Fox and Friends are coming down so hard on those over paid teachers. I bet in your day one hundred dollars was more than you made in a year.

Thanks for the update grandpa. Go take a pill.

February 18, 2011 at 8:14 p.m.
carlB said...

This video should be required viewing for every student and political office holder. I would expect some to deny the math because it is not what they want to hear. 3% inflation will result in doubling of prices each 20 years or so or at least 3x in a typical life time.

Username: harp3339 | On: February 18, 2011 at 5:37 p.m.

Reply to harp3339: Thanks, I also agree with you about the videos being required reading and then discussed to fully understand and associate what is being said with the true conditions. Was lucky to have found the videos. Glad you took the time to view and listen.
I believe most of us want the best for our Republic and for getting out of this "mess" in the best way possible without going through another full blown depression.

February 18, 2011 at 9:01 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"I hope you people that voted for him can see that you made a big mistake and won't re-nig in 2012!"

I hoped I wasn't seeing this, but I'm afraid I am. This isn't even subtle or veiled. I'm waiting for someone to defend indian for this one.

February 18, 2011 at 9:23 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Blackwater48 said: "Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January."

Informative post, Blackwater48. Since your post I’ve read several articles that are saying much the same thing about Wisconsin Governor Walker’s motives. Just read an article by an attorney involved in the film industry, Miles Mogulesco, who has some interesting things to say:

“About 30 years ago, shortly after finishing college, I produced and co-directed an Academy Award-nominated documentary called Union Maids about three courageous women who helped organize labor unions in 1930's-'40s Chicago. It showed how unions were the product of struggle, organization, mass protests, and sometimes jail and beatings. . .

I'm not surprised that the first stirrings of American resistance to the corporate oligarchy since Wall Street greed and malfeasance brought the American and world economy to its knees in 2008 are coming from the organized labor, centered today in the capital of Wisconsin, a state with one of the longest progressive traditions in America. And it's why I'm not surprised that some of the first acts of newly minted right-wing Republican Governors are to try to destroy organized labor.

When foreign dictators take power some of their first actions usually include either breaking unions or turning them into puppets of the state. And unions, like Solidarity in Poland, are often the first line of resistance that help bring down dictatorships. In Egypt, it was internet-savvy young professionals who helped initiate and organize the mass street protests against the Mubarak dictatorship. But the Egyptian army finally forced Mubarak out when labor unions also began to strike -- particularly unions in the Suez Canal that control access to Egypt's most valuable asset -- thus threatening the economic interests of top army officers who own key sectors of the Egyptian economy.

Remember that one of Ronald Reagan's first acts as President was to break the air traffic controllers union. It was one of the first shots across the bow in a 30-year long war by America's corporate oligarchy to transfer wealth from the working and middle classes to the rich and to deregulate the economy in order to increase the wealth and power power of the corporate and financial elite.”

February 18, 2011 at 9:30 p.m.
Francis said...

grandpa? old do you think i am? i guarantee you..i'm a lot younger than you are, blackwater......

anyone who complains about pulling in one hundred thousand a year with massive an ingrate...

sorry, mountainlaurel...the closest thing we have to a dictator now is obama...........oh, yes the precious labor unions..the sacred labor unions and their thug preserve them......and what if a union member doesn't agree with the leadership...he's toast.......what if a union member doesn't want his dues going to a democrat...what will happen to him/her?

unions are the threat..rather than being threatened..'re or a communist..or socialist..or whatever mouthpiece..after two years of an authoritarian like obama with his army of think you can convince us to fear scott walker and chris christie?

anyone who would quote the huffington post has no credibility.,..

February 18, 2011 at 10:22 p.m.
acerigger said...

Ike,didn't you know, "THERE'S A BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE!!!!"? What can "REAL AMERICANS" do but "IMPEACH O-BLA-BLA"??? Yeah, that's snark. But somehow it ain't funny.

February 18, 2011 at 11:21 p.m.

Okay. There's no longer any question.

"Francis" is a product of mountainlaurel's two-dimensional imagination. I'm embarrassed it took this long to figure out. Caricatures like him are the only way to make liberalism appear to be intelligent. I'll also venture that mountainlaurel either interns with NPR or serves as Clay Bennett's assistant. They play the same game.

This was a clever take on what public unions have done to California's economy.

February 18, 2011 at 11:38 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

Francis, Francis, bo bancis.

Just thought that I would throw in some nonsense of my own.

February 18, 2011 at 11:38 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis, I called you grandpa because you were making such a big deal out of teachers earning one hundred dollars a year. I figured you were really old if you thought that was a ton of cash.

Then you said, "anyone who complains about pulling in one hundred thousand a year with massive an ingrate..."


Second, in what school district on planet earth do public school teachers AVERAGE one hundred thousand dollars a year? Please respond. I know several teachers.

Oh wait. You can't. You just made it up. You don't know the issues, you don't understand what's happening, and yet you feel obligated to pollute this thread with lies, fantasy, and GOP talking points.

That makes you a spineless sack of crap.

February 19, 2011 at 12:01 a.m.
dedo77 said...

Oh, pardon me Scottym,

America will never elect a fat president in the era of modern day media and television.

Taft's face was not seen on TV's and nationally syndicated publishers & periodicals because (a) TV and internet did not exist; (b) national journals of the time did not have nearly the reach they do today

The fact you had to go back to Taft at the turn of the century makes the point for me. Sorry for omitting that point, I myself found it self evident. Nixon, Reagen, Obama, Clinton, Ford, Carter, Bush and Bush II, Truman, Eisenhower...Do you get the point ScottyM.

I could go on...but I won't.

The environmental difference between these former statesmen and Taft is the reach and prevalence of image based media during these presidents era and Taft's....when Television was non existent....the important FACE of a president for 'Joe Sixpack America' was a voice over a radio...not a carbon based image, and body stature.

A US President has to "look the part." I will no longer argue this point.

lol Taft...thats hilarious.

February 19, 2011 at 12:38 a.m.
fairmon said...


You have been brain washed. There is no corporate power center. Most corporations donate liberally to charity and to various communities they do business in. They provide good wages and benefits to their employees with or without a union. Do you have names of those corporations you think have power and are abusive? Are you familiar with Apple, Google, Microsoft, Caterpillar, Ford, Honeywell, Potash and the over 3000 others listed on the stock exchanges? Quit using a splatter gun and give me names, I will check them out, I may own stock in the bad ones and need to sell. Like every other sector of society there have been crooked CEOs not managing peoples money properly and are now in jail, there will be others. That is more than happens to politicians that take our money against our will then waste it. I hate to burst your bubble but that includes your party as well. Why did Barney Franks, Chris Dodd and others encourage and insist that Fannie May, Freddie Mac and banks make high risk loans so people could "live the American dream" as they put it? Banks, brokers, insurance and other in the financial sector are the ones with ties to both parties and are favored by both parties. Check out who in congress owns stock in the financials and you will see why they coined the phrase "too big to fail" which is so much BS. It is not those that make things that if you drop them on your foot it hurts or things that will break that have influence and gain favor.

No one has interfered with or passed any legislation that discourages unions in the private sector. In many cases they are needed and do good work but they to have instances of radicals and crooks being in power, taking advantage of members, being involved in criminal acts such as stealing peoples money and paying themselves ludicrous salaries and benefits. Some of them went to jail just like the crooked CEOs.

I don't think public sector or government employees where tax money supports them should be union. Who represents the tax payer. It is not the politicians who get the same or similar benefits they agree to for employees. Government jobs on the average are compensated about 30% more than like work in the private sector. I would have no objection to eliminating public schools. Go to all private schools with no political interference then if employees want to have a union no problem, have at it. Or put the agreement on the ballot and let tax payers vote up or down on it.

The news media shows the madness in Madison but fail to point out that more than 70% of the people in Wisconsin support the governor's action. Like those posting here I only know what the print and TV media that I don't trust want me to know. So, I don't have enough information to reach a conclusion about the details of the legislative action.

February 19, 2011 at 12:40 a.m.
canarysong said...

I just looked up the average salary for teachers in Wisconsin - $46,360 average annually; starting salary at $25,000. Since the website is aimed at recruiting teachers to come to Wisconsin, I would guess that they would put that number as high as they could. After years of college and accumulating student loan debt, $25,000 sure isn't much!

February 19, 2011 at 12:47 a.m.
fairmon said...

A lot of the postings indicate there are several paranoid sign painters here that have different paranoia than the guy in the cartoon. "Big business is bad they make profits" (shame on them they should take the risk free). "It is a republican conspiracy to get rid of unions" (they aren't that smart). Reagan broke the air traffic controlers union (Are they now no union? Was the fact there would have been no planes flying and the country would have been at a stand still not a factor at all?)

One post in the same paragraph said dictators always break the unions or make them puppets of the state. Then later said Mubarik was removed from office because the unions in Egypt were striking. Why did the unions exist as anything other than puppets of the state? Wasn't Mubark a dictator?

February 19, 2011 at 1:08 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Harp, I understand your point but I think you're looking at this the wrong way. First you claim that corporations are primarily benevolent and pay employees well. I agree that they should be compelled to pay top salaries and generous benefits packages to secure the services of the best workers available.

But this flies in the face of stagnant wages for the past ten years.

Then you said: "No one has interfered with or passed any legislation that discourages unions in the private sector."

Get real. Check out the numerous websites that provide instruction on how to bust a union.

Then you point out, "Government jobs on the average are compensated about 30% more than like work in the private sector."

First point: government jobs often require college education. I just looked at two private / public sites and both mentioned public employment require more advanced degrees.

That's not always the case in the private sector, and as more and more good paying jobs are sent overseas more and more people are forced to take lower paying jobs.

Second point: if there were more Unions in the private sector we'd close the wage gap.

Public employees are not over paid. Private employees are under paid.

February 19, 2011 at 1:46 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “You have been brain washed. There is no corporate power center.”

You’ve drawn a conclusion, but what is your premise, Harp3339?

February 19, 2011 at 1:56 a.m.
fairmon said...


Premise? Primarily my experience working with several of them. I have had access to budgets and advised the CEO and other managers of some international corporations. I was employed at a top management level with one of the largest producers in the world. I have researched many of them for investment purposes. They are required to file with the SEC more details than most will take the time to read and make an effort to understand. Governments with public employees are not required to file anything. Try finding out the total revenue and a line item budget from local governments or any federal agency and see what you get.

I think the premise for your conclusion is the question I ask you. Do you have the names of those companies outside the financial sector that you are sure are unscrupulous and use power and influence for ulterior motives? Your use of a splatter gun hits a lot of people that didn't deserve to be shot.

February 19, 2011 at 4:53 a.m.
ITguy said...


February 19, 2011 at 7:27 a.m.
alprova said...

Ikeithlu wrote: "I hoped I wasn't seeing this, but I'm afraid I am. This isn't even subtle or veiled. I'm waiting for someone to defend indian for this one."

Indian is a man who likes to open the door of a room, relieve himself of a very big fart, and then sits back to laugh about it.

Come to think of it, that describes more than a couple of people who pop in and out of the forum.

Francis must eat lots of beans, for he never seems to run out of gas.

February 19, 2011 at 7:37 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

If Francis comes back and slams liberals again but lets this racial slur go unchallenged, we'll confirm something very important about Francis. I had a mind to suggest its removal, but I think it might be better remaining here as a test.

February 19, 2011 at 7:55 a.m.
fairmon said...


I never go in a Walmart and have no plans to. They have had some individual managers violate the fair labors standards act to avoid over time. As a corporation they have not violated laws and they do pay taxes. As long as people seek their perceived lower prices and continue to patronize them they have no reason to change anything. They do provide some employment and as you may know they don't hire from the top of the labor supply pool. Walmart does have a high rating among a majority of their employees. They are a retailer, I prefer those companies that make things and create wealth not those that just suck off some of the wealth and move it around.

A country without a strong manufacturing sector cannot be a world dominating power very long. Will history repeat itself?

February 19, 2011 at 9:18 a.m.
ITguy said...


I agree with your 9:18 post. I apologize for my one word comment above. That was snarky.

The truth of the matter is that corporations have one purpose and only one purpose. To make a profit. Before all the Republicans jump in and starting accusing me of being a communist, let me say that there is nothing wrong with making a profit. It is what makes our economic system work. It is the only thing that drives innovation.

Corporations are not people, and therefore are neither Good or Evil. It is the individuals who run them who are Good or Evil. Unfortunately the larger the corporation the more removed the executives are from the impact of their decisions on the lives of real people (and the less they care)

I am aware of one company that paid a bonus to any Buyer if one of their suppliers went bankrupt. Nothing illegal about that, but what kind of message does that send to your employees? What ever happened to that Win - Win philosophy?

Now, how do we re-create the strong manufacturing sector that you mentioned? I would favor an elimination of the corporate income tax if we offset that with an increase in the personal income tax for the wealthy. Large corporations find ways to avoid paying taxes and the small corporations pass it on to the customer. Killing the corporate income tax would help small corporations start up and create jobs. After all, corporations are not people. Tax the people.

Universal government health care. Stop putting the burden of providing health care on the back of the employer. Again, this would help small companies compete for the best labor force and create jobs. It would reduce the cost of products manufactured in the US. Direct Labor is usually a very small portion of the total cost of manufacturing. The Burden (overhead) portion is where the real costs are.

Fair trade. NAFTA is a joke. The trade is fair coming north, but try to sell into Mexico. You will find all kinds of barriers and corruption.

Streamline the government regulations to only those that protect the workers, the shareholders and the environment. Regulation is absolutely necessary to keep the greedy bastards from raping the above mentioned three, but a lot of the regulations are silly and a total waste of time. By the way, don't count on the Republicans to enact legislation that will protect the workers, the shareholders or the environment. They want to strip those regulations along with all the others.

I enjoy your comments, sorry I rarely have time to post a reply.

February 19, 2011 at 9:46 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

indian, provide some evidence for your claims. And just because someone else "said it first", that does not mean you are excused from the moral consequences of your racist post.

February 19, 2011 at 11:29 a.m.
ITguy said...


I don't know what you are smoking, but it is the Republicans that want to control the internet.

February 19, 2011 at 11:39 a.m.
fairmon said...


I think your 9:46 a.m. post is very accurate and to me shows more understanding of how business systems operate than most postings.

From the limited information I have both parties want to control the internet although in different ways. I did read an unsubstantiated comment that the president wanted the authority to shut it down during a crisis available only to the military and key government operations. I haven't seen a proposal to do that. I would hope the media would report it if true.

Have you noticed how we have expanded from the basic necessities of life being food, clothing and shelter to include health care, cell phones, TV, internet access in a government paid winterized home with central H&V?

February 19, 2011 at 2:02 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “Do you have the names of those companies outside the financial sector that you are sure are unscrupulous and use power and influence for ulterior motives."

Harp3339, Acerigger has already provided the name of such a corporation on this thread – Koch Industries. Indeed, this corporation and its leadership spend a considerable amount of time and money in an attempt to impose their political philosophy on the citizens of this country – including the current situation involving the public employees and the governor in Wisconsin.

I posted the "corporate oligarchy" article because I think some of the questions that we should be pondering in this country are: Why does a corporation like Koch industries and its leadership concern itself with what is happening between a governor and its citizens? Is it any of their business? Is it a legitimate role of a corporation to do this? It is ethical for a corporation to try to impose the personal philosophy of its owners on a community? Is it fair for a corporation to use its political power and financial resources to infringe upon the rights of citizens in a community?

Per your “splatter gun” comment, I understand and actually agree with what you’re saying, Harp3339, but all things considered it seems to me this group falls into sort of a “silent minority” category. Perhaps, if they became more vocal in regard to the abuse and political misconduct of some of their corporate peers, my perspective on this would change.

February 19, 2011 at 2:45 p.m.
canarysong said...


You are usually very sensible but you are going off the deep end here; whoever suggested that "cell phones, TV, Internet access, in a government paid winterized home with central H&V" were "basic necessities of life" or that they should be supplied by the government?

February 19, 2011 at 4:44 p.m.
fairmon said...


What corporations are involved in political misconduct or other unscrupulous behavior. This is a serious question since I may be able to cause an investigation if I have verifiable information. I think manufacturing businesses are critical to this country and I think our politicians abuse and take advantage of them while favoring those in finance, insurance, and health care. Are all miners and manufacturing co.'s Lilly White, not likely but most totally comply with all regulation and tax codes. They accept their obligation to stake holders as well as stock holders, a difficult balancing act for sure.

Are you sure Kock Industries don't have a business in Wisconsin? I have posted perhaps incorrectly my thoughts under the budget 'toon. What should they be saying to their peers?

February 19, 2011 at 8:02 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Evidence, please? All you are doing is ranting. Provide evidence. Your little "poot" trying to minimize your racist comment isn't fooling anyone. Grow a pair and state exactly what you are trying to dodge: that you are a racist and it really gets your goat that there is a black man in the White House.

February 19, 2011 at 8:51 p.m.
fairmon said...


Those items I listed as now considered by some as basic necessities in addition to food, clothing and shelter are provided by the government. Cell phones, winterization includes windows and insulation plus central H&V are federal programs, health care in TN, all at no cost to the recipient. Check it out. I know a recipient and they also received a substantial tax refund although little to none was paid in. That is a way the politicians chose to hide a welfare program.

Food: People truly in need should be provided food stamps since the churches have to have recreation centers and cathedrals. Shelter: Section 8 housing assistance provides shelter Clothing: Dang, they forgot something it seems. I didn't see nor have I Heard of a clothing assistance program.

According to the budget office there is an acknowledged 400 billion per year in welfare spending.

February 19, 2011 at 8:57 p.m.
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