published Sunday, June 23rd, 2013

Irony

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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Stupid cartoon.

June 23, 2013 at 12:05 a.m.

Another example of projection by this Democrat Party hack.

June 23, 2013 at 12:07 a.m.
frettfull said...

OK, CB, fess up. How did you know to draw the guy who was going to comment first?

June 23, 2013 at 12:14 a.m.
dimestore said...

Is the Tea Party even really a thing anymore? None in my state, and candidates in the 2014 Senate race are sparse. Can someone point me to any Tea Party-written legislation that has passed?

Seems like the GOP has cooled that threat and they're just a boogeyman for the left anymore.

June 23, 2013 at 12:31 a.m.
fairmon said...

ATLANTA — Police say an armed man trying to rob customers outside an Atlanta shoe store was fatally shot by one of the patrons waiting in line to buy sneakers.

Apparently not a gun free zone since police say no charges filed since he was acting in self defense.

Not likely to make national media news.

June 23, 2013 at 2:28 a.m.
fairmon said...

dimestore said...

Is the Tea Party even really a thing anymore? None in my state, and candidates in the 2014 Senate race are sparse. Can someone point me to any Tea Party-written legislation that has passed?

Those in congress linked to, supported by a local tea group or claiming to be a "tea party" supporter have blocked a lot of legislation. I am not aware of any legislation being credited as initiated and passed by the "tea party". There is no such thing as a "tea party" organized like a democrat or republican party. The label is loosely assigned to any local group identified as ultra conservative that assembles and acts in unison on an issue. There is no national chairman or leadership and no coordination of all identified as "tea party". It is like most fads that fade and would fade faster if not for the media. It is another way of the media putting a label on people so they can report the news in short sound bites. All democrats are not Liberals and all republicans are not conservative. Libertarians are social liberals and fiscal conservatives so both parties dislike them.

June 23, 2013 at 2:55 a.m.
alprova said...

dimestore, since President Obama won his election to a second term, Congress has been quite busy. How many Tea-Party sponsored bills have been signed into law? Zero. How many Tea-Party initiatives were signed into law since 2010? Zero.

What legislation has passed and been sent to the President for his signature? Here's a partial list;

Congress has successfully named 15 Post Offices and Federal Court Houses;

The Mark Twain Commemorative Coin Act;

The Russia and Moldova Jackson-Vanik Repeal and Sergei Magnitsky Rule of Law Accountability Act of 2012;

March of Dimes Commemorative Coin Act of 2012;

To amend the Electronic Fund Transfer Act to limit the fee disclosure requirement for an automatic teller machine to the screen of that machine;

21st Century Language Act of 2012 - (Strikes the word `lunatic' from Federal law, and for other purposes);

FISA Amendments Act Reauthorization Act of 2012;

City of Salem, Massachusetts, as the Birthplace of the National Guard of the United States;

Former President's Protection Act of 2012 - (which eliminated certain limitations on the length of Secret Service Protection for former Presidents and for the children of former Presidents);

Drywall Safety Act of 2012;

Clothe a Homeless Hero Act - (directs the Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security and the TSA to transfer unclaimed clothing recovered at airport security checkpoints to local veterans organizations and other local charitable organizations, and for other purposes);

Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013 - (Do you really believe that Congress was in the dark about what the NSA was doing? This one was signed in January of this year);

The Reducing Flight Delays Act of 2013;

National Baseball Hall of Fame Commemorative Coin;

Stolen Valor Act of 2013 - (Which makes it a prosecutable crime to lie about having been awarded a military award or medal);

S. 982 - Freedom to Fish Act - (Which prevents the Army Corp of Engineers from designating certain bodies of water off-limits to fishing)

What kind of legislation has been proposed by Tea-Party members?

Anti-abortion bills, Bills intended to cut funding to Planned Parenthood, proposals of deep cuts to social programs, and most recently, are proposing bills opposing immigration reform.

The Tea-Party peaked in early 2010. They have received a five point boost in approval ratings since the IRS "Scandal" broke. In January of this year, the Tea-Party had the support of only 23% of the American people.

By next year, Americans will be yawning at any mention of the Tea-Party, and candidates will be loathe to identify themselves as Tea Party Patriots.

June 23, 2013 at 3:14 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon, the news report of the Atlanta shooting seems to be working its way around the country this morning. Mostly on localized outlets, which is normal, as the national outlets usually pick things up a day or two later.

http://www.newschannel9.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.ga/2bf24b71-www.newschannel9.com.shtml

June 23, 2013 at 3:28 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

What kind of legislation has been proposed by Tea-Party members?

Anti-abortion bills, Bills intended to cut funding to Planned Parenthood, proposals of deep cuts to social programs, and most recently, are proposing bills opposing immigration reform.

How do you know who is a member of a tea party or do you conclude the sponsor must be "tea party" based on the legislation proposed? How does a person become a "registered" tea party member like you are a registered republican?

June 23, 2013 at 3:34 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "How do you know who is a member of a tea party or do you conclude the sponsor must be "tea party" based on the legislation proposed?"

Here's the list;

"How does a person become a "registered" tea party member like you are a registered republican?"

That is a question that you know cannot be answered as it was presented.

When I first registered to vote 36 years ago, I thought I remembered registering to vote as a Republican. We all know now that I was mistaken in that faulty memory. It's getting quite boring to have that thrown in my face every time a political discussion ensues.

That irrelevant comparison aside, those who are on that list of Tea-Party members of Congress have each self-identified as such. They were elected after running for votes and endorsements by various Tea-Party groups.

Every piece of legislation has a sponsor and a list of those who co-sponsor the bill. Of the categories I mentioned earlier, you will find the names of those self-identified Tea-Party members of Congress in the list of sponsors and co-sponsors.

Bills introduced in those categories have not been passed by either House and most of them have drawn very little, if any support from more moderate and mainstream Republican members of Congress.

June 23, 2013 at 5:35 a.m.
jesse said...

Looks like Clay thinks any one that has a diff. opinion is a BUG that needs stompin on!

WHICH, IF you think about it applies to most on here!

June 23, 2013 at 6:01 a.m.
rick1 said...

Fairmon and Al, both of you were having a discussion yesterday about Medicare and I thought both of you may find this article more important then todays cartoon.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323393804578557802237872788.html

June 23, 2013 at 7:54 a.m.
tifosi said...

It is easy to find the Tea Party leaders. They wear a white hood.

June 23, 2013 at 7:58 a.m.
degage said...

tifosi, Aren't you cute and a little hateful.

June 23, 2013 at 8:02 a.m.
jesse said...

TIFOSI IS A LIB IDJIT!SHE SPOUTS THE LIB AGENDA AND HAS YET TO HAVE AN IDEA OF HER OWN!

June 23, 2013 at 8:05 a.m.
tifosi said...

From a Tea Party protest in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

http://youtu.be/2LMmx-znVZc

A Texas Teabagger.

http://www.motherjones.com/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/photoessays/teapartyniggar2.jpg

Google "Tea Party racism" and the links go on forever. There is little doubt that the reputation is there.

June 23, 2013 at 8:43 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Clay views the Tea Party as of much greater stature than himself?

rick1's link at 7:54am: city hospital workers have to be paid as well as rural ones; Massachusett's only "rural" hospital is on Nantucket, full of rich people; federal taxpayers pay for this; so Massachusetts gets money from the whole country to pay its hospitals top dollar. Gotta read the bill to see what's in it. Even donkeys are smelling the manure here.

Hey, Jesus is libertarian. Jesus or Hell.

June 23, 2013 at 8:48 a.m.
potcat said...

Clay and editor 'Sohn' recently insulted the people of Coffee CO. by lying that everyone in the county were conservative 'teabillies'. Mutt-Jeff was'nt even close to the truth and obviosly don't care to correct the many untruths that the 'editorbullies' shamefully put in a newspapper as if it had a ounce of credibility.

The Tea party of course is a non-issue but Bennett seems to be stuck, maybe he likes drawing a teabag. Distraction from real issues seems to be this duo's mission. Way to often i feel i am looking at a cartoon done by a immature 12yr. old bully.

Hi, Potcat, i am a bigot!

June 23, 2013 at 9 a.m.
klifnotes said...

potcat said... Clay and editor 'Sohn' recently insulted the people of Coffee CO


The people of coffee county insulted themselves. The ones who remained silent until it made headlines and they were shamed are just as guilty as the ones who took part in the shameful fiasco.

June 23, 2013 at 9:11 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

WRONG HAT, BENNETT, IT SHOULD BE A SOMBRERO.

June 23, 2013 at 9:22 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Clearly, the port-siders and the cartoonist are one way thinkers...nothing new here. Narrow minded, intractable, bullies. Not to mention faux intellectuals. but they are so hip!!!

June 23, 2013 at 10:14 a.m.
librul said...

If the Teabillies really wanted to do something in service to preservation of American democracy, they would load up their pitchforks and axes and put wire-cutters in their back pockets and head for Bluffdale, Utah and NSA headquarters.

Truth-telling exacts a cost I bet none of them could bear, they would rather demonize latino peasants while ignoring those odd clicks on their phone lines.

THANK YOU, SNOWDEN, MANNING, ASSANGE, WILSON AND ELLSBERG !!!!

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Julian-Assange-after,249.html

Statement by Julian Assange after One Year in Ecuadorian Embassy Saturday June 22nd, 15:00 GMT

It has now been a year since I entered this embassy and sought refuge from persecution.

As a result of that decision, I have been able to work in relative safety from a US espionage investigation.

But today, Edward Snowden’s ordeal is just beginning.

Two dangerous runaway processes have taken root in the last decade, with fatal consequences for democracy.

Government secrecy has been expanding on a terrific scale.

Simultaneously, human privacy has been secretly eradicated.

A few weeks ago, Edward Snowden blew the whistle on an ongoing program - involving the Obama administration, the intelligence community and the internet services giants - to spy on everyone in the world.

As if by clockwork, he has been charged with espionage by the Obama administration.

The US government is spying on each and every one of us, but it is Edward Snowden who is charged with espionage for tipping us off.

It is getting to the point where the mark of international distinction and service to humanity is no longer the Nobel Peace Prize, but an espionage indictment from the US Department of Justice.

Edward Snowden is the eighth leaker to be charged with espionage under this president.

Bradley Manning’s show trial enters its fourth week on Monday.

After a litany of wrongs done to him, the US government is trying to convict him of "aiding the enemy."

The word "traitor" has been thrown around a lot in recent days.

But who is really the traitor here?

Who was it who promised a generation "hope" and "change," only to betray those promises with dismal misery and stagnation?

PART II below ...

June 23, 2013 at 10:33 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

Seems like the Tea party has become a catch phrase for any one who says the Federal government is out of control. And secondly I find it a stretch to say that anyone who is against rewarding the breeding habits of others through tax deduction ,earned income credits , sec 8 vouchers is somehow a closet racist/bigot. Because IMO this, as always, comes down to the tax code. With federal politicians playing santa to the "poor starving children" with other peoples' money. No it is better to blame the people who say that as a country we can not breed our way out of poverty and the current system is unsustainable than to "lean forward" with new ideas. Ideas that don't require taking one man's effort to reward anothers procreation.

June 23, 2013 at 10:33 a.m.
librul said...

PART II

Who took an oath to defend the US constitution, only to feed the invisible beast of secret law devouring it alive from the inside out?

Who is it that promised to preside over The Most Transparent Administration in history, only to crush whistleblower after whistleblower with the bootheel of espionage charges?

Who combined in his executive the powers of judge, jury and executioner, and claimed the jurisdiction of the entire earth on which to exercise those powers?

Who arrogates the power to spy on the entire earth - every single one of us - and when he is caught red handed, explains to us that "we’re going to have to make a choice."

Who is that person?

Let’s be very careful about who we call "traitor".

Edward Snowden is one of us.

Bradley Manning is one of us.

They are young, technically minded people from the generation that Barack Obama betrayed.

They are the generation that grew up on the internet, and were shaped by it.

The US government is always going to need intelligence analysts and systems administrators, and they are going to have to hire them from this generation and the ones that follow it.

One day, their generation will run the NSA, the CIA and the FBI.

This isn’t a phenomenon that is going away.

This is inevitable.

And by trying to crush these young whistleblowers with espionage charges, the US government is taking on a generation, and that is a battle it is going to lose.

This isn’t how to fix things.

The only way to fix things is this:

Change the policies.

Stop spying on the world.

Eradicate secret law.

Cease indefinite detention without trial.

Stop assassinating people.

Stop invading other countries and sending young Americans off to kill and be killed.

Stop the occupations, and discontinue the secret wars.

Stop eating the young: Edward Snowden, Barrett Brown, Jeremy Hammond, Aaron Swartz, Gottfrid Svartholm, Jacob Appelbaum, and Bradley Manning.

The charging of Edward Snowden is intended to intimidate any country that might be considering standing up for his rights.

That tactic must not be allowed to work.

The effort to find asylum for Edward Snowden must be intensified.

What brave country will stand up for him, and recognize his service to humanity?

Tell your governments to step forward.

Step forward and stand with Snowden.

June 23, 2013 at 10:34 a.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Fairmon and Al, both of you were having a discussion yesterday about Medicare and I thought both of you may find this article more important then todays cartoon."

That was indeed interesting and I read other articles that have stated that the bill to fix that 'boondoggle" That John Kerry slipped into the AHA has passed the Senate and is expected to pass the House.

ObamaCare is not perfect. I'm sure that there will be amendments and fixes applied to it in the future, just as there have been over the past two years.

John Kerry should be ashamed for his contribution. But, as we all should know, Members of Congress quite often slip selfish legislation into bills, to bring home the bacon.

June 23, 2013 at 10:39 a.m.
rt said...

Didn't know it was possible to be anti-jobs AND anti-worker, but it appears Bill Haslam and the pro-inbred Tennessee voter have figured out how to do it......

"We'uns don't need nary jobs...we'uns kin just sit in our trailers and get our EBIT cards and watch Fox News...".....

June 23, 2013 at 10:55 a.m.
librul said...

"If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law." (Henry David Thoreau)

June 23, 2013 at 10:55 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

The gulf is too wide. Hard to see any common ground on here with extremists on the left. Sad.

June 23, 2013 at 10:56 a.m.
fairmon said...

rick1 wrote: "Fairmon and Al, both of you were having a discussion yesterday about Medicare and I thought both of you may find this article more important then todays cartoon."

Rick1. It doesn't take much to be more important than todays toon. Thanks, good article but not surprising. Another good example of "we will just have to pass it to see what is in it". At 79,000 pages and growing as regulations are written there is no telling how many similar surprises will come our way. Contrary to what alprova thinks I do recognize the need for a comprehensive approach to people being able to obtain quality healthcare. I have been involved with health care as an employer, as a subscriber and assisting seniors in navigating the complexities of Medicare and Medicaid. I promise you this boondoggle called the Patient Protection Affordable Healthcare Act is a better example of how not to than how to.

I assume you saw the news special that showed how much money was being paid in fraudulent claims to off shore accounts that could not be recovered? I think it was $62 million per year. I would think the number nationally would be 10X that amount.

June 23, 2013 at 11:31 a.m.
limric said...

Well said librul, My fist is held high with yours.

OH THE IRONY – You’re right clay, but for different reasons.

For the Tea Party, strict adherence to the constitution is their Modus Operandi – i.e. their reason for being. They have been given a gift from heaven in Edward Snowden.

I wonder if they’ll figure it out.

June 23, 2013 at 11:35 a.m.
alprova said...

I'm still amazed to read diatribes from people claiming that our Government and those of other countries spying on the world was ever done in secret.

Where have you people been for the last 40 years?

I posted earlier today, a citation that Congress passed and sent to the President, in January of this year, the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013.

You can read every sentence in the final bill here;

http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/pdfs112th/s3454.pdf

Congress, at least those who took the time to read the bill, were very much informed to what the intelligence community has been up to and what they had planned and most all of them reauthorized intelligence gathering that has some of you up in arms.

This 2013 reauthorization has been online, with updates and amendments, for a year.

It took a very stupid man with traitorous intentions to wake up some of you people to certain realities.

Edward Snowden may very well have put every United States citizen in danger, if his revelations are responsible for those with evil intent successfully sidestepping efforts to weed them out through intelligence efforts to do so.

Before that Guardian article was published, not one innocent person in this nation had any reason to believe that their telephone calls or Internet activity was being tracked.

No matter how many times assurances have been offered by those in the know, that no innocent person was targeted in any manner, some of you are acting as if you were all victims of NSA snooping.

Are you all posting from prison? Have any of your skeletons that have always lingered in the closet been exposed to your friends and family or made public? Have you been fired from your jobs because your employer has been advised of your extracurricular activities?

What exactly is it that has some of you people upset? How have you personally been affected by these revelations that are more akin to being accusations, leveled by a man who violated a signed agreement to not disclose Governmental secrets that he had access to?

There are people out there who would end your life, given half a chance to do so. Every single one of us has a target on our backs. I sleep better at night, knowing that there are people working behind the scenes to prevent another 9/11.

These people are absolutely as patriotic as any military member who has ever served this nation. Their efforts protect us all from harm.

BTW, Edward Snowden hopped plane and landed in Russia awhile ago.

Russia?

June 23, 2013 at 11:37 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Were it not for the The Tea Party, Bennett would be coloring for the Bedford (MA) Patriot.

June 23, 2013 at 11:38 a.m.
Maximus said...

From the June 22-23, 2013 Wall Street Journal, from a speech by Sen. Mitch McConnell at the American Enterprise Institute, June 21. Looking back the IRS scandal helps explain a lot of the things this administration has done. You all remember the President wagging his finger at the Supreme Court during his 2010 State Of The Union address. Well, I assure you this little piece of presidential theater wasn't done for the ratings. There was a good reason the President and his allies devoted so much time and energy to denouncing the Citizens United case. But it's not the reason they gave ....the fact is, the Court's decision aimed at leveling the playing field. The real reason the Left was so concerned about Citizens United was that they thought it meant more conservatives would start to form groups like Planned Parenthood and the Sierra Club, for years. And what's notable about social welfare groups is they don't have to disclose donors. Obama was not interested in the privacy of donors, what they really wanted was a hook that enabled them to stir up outrage about conservative groups so they could get their hands on the names of the folks who supported them - and then go after them. Citizens United provided that hook.
Sen McConnell is right and as I have always said about Obama, his primary character flaw....Deceitfulness.

June 23, 2013 at 11:58 a.m.
klifnotes said...

fairmon said... ATLANTA — Police say an armed man trying to rob customers outside an Atlanta shoe store was fatally shot by one of the patrons waiting in line to buy sneakers. Apparently not a gun free zone since police say no charges filed since he was acting in self defense.

Not likely to make national media news.


On your last sentence? And YOUR point is?

Lots of news never make it into the national headlines. Whether it does is often controlled by local news media and other local sources. Take 4 of the most brutal murders that happened years ago in the Chattanooga viewing area, where a child murdered his parents, another where a child murdered his parents and sibling allegedly over a credit card debt, husband murdered his wife, infant child and step-daughter. All took place in upscale, crime-free communities. Those stories didn't even make it across stateliness into Georgia. At least the one you mentioned did make it across the border and into Tennessee.

Then there's the story out of Missouri where a mother is accused along with her boyfriend of allegedly allowing him to rape her 4 month old baby daughter, who later died from the injuries the boyfriend inflicted. The story has barely even made local news, except for one media outlet.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/20/1217659/-Mother-Charged-With-Giving-Her-Baby-To-Boyfriend-To-Rape-Baby-Dies-Very-Hard-To-Read#

so don't gloat.

June 23, 2013 at 12:05 p.m.
rick1 said...

Fairmon, I believe the a free market approach is the best way for people to purchase health care and to also provide us with the best medical care. The government getting more involved and imposing price controls, and even more regulations will only continue to drive up health care prices.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/yes-mr-president-free-market-can-fix-health-care

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa650.pdf

It is unbelievable how much money our federal government loses every day to waste, fraud and abuse and no one is ever held accountable. Yet they will conduct a dog and pony show because some baseball players were accused of using steroids. Or they will bring big oil CEO's to Capital Hill time after time and there has never been any evidence to show they are working together in fixing the price of oil, but these same politicians will never hold a hearing on the money that is pissed away everyday and costs us taxpayers billions of dollars.

Politicians only care about two things. Getting elected and getting re-elected.

June 23, 2013 at 12:10 p.m.
klifnotes said...

Another One:

"Newspaper: Documents expose massive UK spying op"

excerpt: "LONDON — British spies are running an online eavesdropping operation so vast that internal documents say it even outstrips the United States’ international Internet surveillance effort, the Guardian newspaper reported Friday."

http://www.pottsmerc.com/article/20130621/NEWS05/130629793/newspaper-documents-expose-massive-uk-spying-op

June 23, 2013 at 12:20 p.m.
klifnotes said...

rick1 said... Fairmon, I believe the a free market approach is the best way for people to purchase health care and to also provide us with the best medical care. The government getting more involved and imposing price controls, and even more regulations will only continue to drive up health care prices.


The government has always been involved on some level in the private healthcare industry. In fact, it was the private industry that helped to write the rules for government healthcare. In fact, pretty much all of the major insurance companies have contracts with federal and state government where they are paid to handle and process medicare, Medicaid, military etc. claims.

June 23, 2013 at 12:27 p.m.
librul said...

So I guess we can only deduce that Alprova is soft on totaltarianism - as long as he feels "safe".

June 23, 2013 at 12:37 p.m.
miraweb said...

Alprova writes: I sleep better at night, knowing that there are people working behind the scenes to prevent another 9/11.

I think we all do and there are some very dedicated people who are keeping the nation safe. A few weeks ago Snowden was numbered among them. My belief is that he still is.

Power must always have limits.

That is why we have a divided government and why we demand transparency when great powers are sought.

We allow that we need a CIA, FBI and NSA but we also insist that their missions should be limited and their authorized operations conducted with close oversight.

Many people are rightfully outraged that their communications between friends, colleagues, and family have been declared "fair game."

The question is not is it useful, or even legal, but is this the society we want for ourselves and our children?

We are not the country we would be in such a world.

A free society must be able to determine when the price is too high and the powers granted too dangerous.

If a program is hidden from the public because the public would be outraged by it, then something has gone wrong.

June 23, 2013 at 12:38 p.m.
alprova said...

Julian Assange might well be viewed by some of you as a national hero, although he is not an American, and that's fine. The man is currently living in an office converted to a very minimal living environment equipped with a bed, telephone, sun lamp, computer with an Internet connection, shower, treadmill, and small kitchenette.

He lives in fear that anytime he steps out of that room, that he will be shot to death. Now...I'm not saying that he deserves to be shot, but I don't know anyone who would want to be in his shoes, with the possible exception of Edward Snowden.

Like Edward Snowden, Julian Assange too, is a man without a country.

If either of these men had the courage of their convictions, they would hop a plane, land in the countries that have filed warrants for their arrests, and stand up in courts of law for what they have done.

Instead, they are hiding like the chickens they are, because they both knew beforehand that what they have done was criminal and/or traitorous.

I fully agree with Assange's stance against war, but I have come to the conclusion that he absolutely used Bradley Manning to further his quest for International fame and recognition as a very rogue hero.

Bradley Manning has problems of his own, but he is facing the consequences of his actions. He should have never enlisted in the military.

June 23, 2013 at 12:43 p.m.
alprova said...

Librul wrote: "So I guess we can only deduce that Alprova is soft on totaltarianism - as long as he feels "safe"..."

I am under no illusion that any or all of us are 100% safe at any given moment.

At the same time, I am not worried a bit, nor does it bother me for one second, that intelligence gathering efforts have been ongoing for decades, perhaps even eons.

We all live in dangerous times. Evil has existed since the dawn of time. I'm for doing whatever it takes to find those who live to harm innocent people and to remove them from society.

I again want to note that not one of you, or any other United States citizen, who may have been targeted by intelligence gathering, however briefly or extensively it may have been, is sitting in prison or has been executed as a result of the Government's technological advancements in gathering, analyzing, and utilization of metadata authorized by Congress.

And until one example can be offered to counter that simple fact, all this outrage over that which the NSA has been doing, is quite ridiculous, in my humble opinion.

June 23, 2013 at 1:01 p.m.
miraweb said...

One of the best conversations on these very issues. If you are in a hurry, start around minute 10:00.

(It moves into in English at about 2:30.)

June 23, 2013 at 1:05 p.m.
emma said...

Great cartoon

June 23, 2013 at 1:18 p.m.
rick1 said...

Klifnotes letting workers control their health care dollars and tearing down regulatory barriers to competition would control costs, expand choice, improve health care quality, and make health coverage more secure.

First, Congress should give Medicare enrollees a voucher and the freedom to choose any health plan on the market. Vouchers would be means-tested, would contain Medicare spending, and are the only way to protect seniors from government rationing.

Second, to give workers control over their health care dollars, Congress should reform the tax treatment of health care with “large” health savings accounts. Large HSAs would reduce the number of uninsured Americans, would free workers to purchase secure health coverage from any source, and would effectively give workers a $9.7 trillion tax cut without increasing the federal budget deficit.

Third, Congress should break up state monopolies on insurance and clinician licensing. Allowing consumers to purchase health insurance licensed by other states could cover one-third of the uninsured without any new taxes or government subsidies.

Finally, Congress should reform Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program the way it reformed welfare in 1996. Block-granting those programs would reduce the deficit and encourage states to target resources to the truly needy.

The great advantage of a free market is that innovation and more prudent decision making means that fewer patients will fall through the cracks.

http://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/yes-mr-president-free-market-can-fix-health-care

June 23, 2013 at 1:31 p.m.
librul said...

So, Al - who's to say they won't decide YOU need to be removed from society or put in prison for voicing an unpopular opinion, despite the fact that you think you've done nothing wrong? After they've come for everyone else, you'll be left alone to defend yourself - sorta reminds me of Charlton Heston in Soilent Green crying "It's people...." to deaf ears.

June 23, 2013 at 1:31 p.m.
fairmon said...

rick1 I agree 100% with your 1210 post. The government will not allow the free market to work without trying to manage the input to manipulate versus regulating the output. The government has made the healthcare sector so complex so convoluted it is impossible for anyone to comprehend. It is amazing that doctors are actually still able to be fairly functional & effective.

June 23, 2013 at 1:32 p.m.
alprova said...

miraweb wrote: "I think we all do and there are some very dedicated people who are keeping the nation safe. A few weeks ago Snowden was numbered among them. My belief is that he still is."

I respectfully disagree with that. Edward Snowden betrayed this nation and has now increased the risk that those who would harm any one of us, have been advised how to avoid detection.

"Power must always have limits."

Agreed. But unlike some, I don't feel that anyone has exceeded their authority or has been shown to have attempted to exceed any limits of power that has been entrusted to them.

"That is why we have a divided government and why we demand transparency when great powers are sought."

It is highly unreasonable for everything that is being done to be transparent. As I have posted several times, the details of what the NSA was doing, has been very public and has been accessible by anyone with an Internet connection.

I'm mystified as to why is is that some people have suddenly awakened to the reality that Governments around the world, especially our own, have been monitoring aspects of all our lives.

"We allow that we need a CIA, FBI and NSA but we also insist that their missions should be limited and their authorized operations conducted with close oversight."

And from what I have read, that close oversight is indeed in place. Such oversight will never come from the public-at-large, but there are people we elect to Congress, who are appraised of classified information, and who have tried to assure the public repeatedly over the past few weeks, that they are indeed overseeing these agencies.

"Many people are rightfully outraged that their communications between friends, colleagues, and family have been declared "fair game."..."

How many people do you think has access to every single e-mail you send? How many servers is one single e-mail stored on as it is transmitted? How many servers are records of phone calls you place on a cell phone stored?

Hundreds, if not thousands. Maybe even tens of thousands. It's not the Government that we should all fear. It should be the minimum wage worker who is privy to the same private information that the NSA sorts through, that we should be worried about.

How do you think bank accounts are compromised, identities are stolen, and your name, telephone number, and e-mail address is known to advertisers, spammers and telemarketers?

(To be cont.)

June 23, 2013 at 1:48 p.m.
alprova said...

(cont.)

"The question is not is it useful, or even legal, but is this the society we want for ourselves and our children?"

Of course it isn't, but we now live in a world where criminals are able to advance their efforts without leaving a room. Before the dawn of the last century, anyone who wanted to come to this country to harm us, would have had to board a boat. There was virtually no way that one could communicate with those in other nations unless they did so person to person.

"A free society must be able to determine when the price is too high and the powers granted too dangerous."

I hate to belabor a simple point, but there's not much any one of us discussing this today can do to stop whatever it is that the Government does. In light that I have no knowledge that the gathering of all this intelligence has not been used in any manner that does endanger our freedom, I'm not understanding the outrage.

"If a program is hidden from the public because the public would be outraged by it, then something has gone wrong."

But...the programs have not been hidden from the public. The data collected is very much hidden from the public, and to the best of my knowledge, only those who are now being hailed as heros, are guilty of releasing portions and/or details of it to the public.

June 23, 2013 at 1:48 p.m.
librul said...

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution - you know, what G.W. Bush called "Just a gdda*ed piece of paper."

June 23, 2013 at 2:16 p.m.
alprova said...

Librul wrote: "So, Al - who's to say they won't decide YOU need to be removed from society or put in prison for voicing an unpopular opinion, despite the fact that you think you've done nothing wrong?"

Can you name one person who has been jailed for voicing an unpopular opinion in this nation? I sure can't. So why would I have such a fear?

This is what I find so ridiculous about all this outrage over the NSA.

Not one United States citizen, other than those convicted of involving themselves in terrorism, has been targeted for any crime or misdeed, as a result of intelligence gathering, but there is no shortage of theories of conspiracy that have been raised.

My question has always been...what are you people basing your fears upon? The details to what is gathered and how it has been used has absolutely been disclosed to anyone who has had the desire to seek out those details, for years.

These so called, "whistleblowers" are the only individuals who have been guilty of releasing private and protected information to the public, but your problem is with the Government?

I'm well aware that the Government deserves criticism for many things, but with the exception of releases of classified information by a few rogue individuals, private information that Governmental agencies are allowed to gather, has not been used improperly, illegally, or has ever been used to target one American for criminal prosecution, with the exception of their involvement with terrorism.

Can anyone point to one criminal prosecution where such evidence was introduced in a court of law, anywhere in the United States?

In the absence of any such evidence, I have no choice but to state with confidence that such fears are irrational, preemptive, and nothing short of hypothetical hyperventilations.

June 23, 2013 at 2:29 p.m.
alprova said...

Librul wrote: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Fourth Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution"

I'm well aware of that Amendment. It was enacted in 1791, 222 years ago.

The Fourth Amendment was enacted 23 years before the first revolver was invented. Until then, a bullet fired from a gun had to be individually loaded.

In 1791, any use of explosive material to take the lives of others, came in the form of a hand grenade, and they were very hard to come by.

In 1791, communication with others outside of walking or animal-riding distance, was hand-written and was delivered by a man on a horse.

In the 1700's, when war was declared, troops stood in uniform in an open field, took aim at an opponent, and fired one shot. Up close and personal battles involved the use of a sword, a bayonet, or perhaps a tomahawk.

The world, as well as this nation, is nothing like it was in 1791. It would be nice if we could just dial up the founding fathers to obtain their counsel and opinion of the dangers that the world of 2013 faces, versus that of 1791.

The Constitution still stands. It has not been disregarded. The Supreme Court has been petitioned and has authorized the programs that we are discussing.

You can disagree with anything and everything, but you are not going to stop a thing by continuing to moan and groan about it.

If you do not want to be subjected to any possibility of your private information being gathered, pondered, and very likely to be totally disregarded and excluded from further consideration, your only hope is to live your life like they did in 1791.

Dump everything that could possibly leave a paper or electronic trail to your doorstep.

I wonder, is that even possible to remove yourself from any detection by a soul on this Earth of your existence in the year 2013?

June 23, 2013 at 3 p.m.
miraweb said...

Alprova poses the question: I wonder, is that even possible to remove yourself from any detection by a soul on this Earth of your existence in the year 2013?

I'm not sure what the year 2013 has to do with the rightness or wrongness of an idea. An old idea may be very worthwhile. A new idea may be pure crap.

Any idea must stand or fall on its merits, not its age.

There is a context to the Snowden release. We all have become more aware of the reach of behavioral tracking. Every "valued customer" card feeds into a database. Every "Facebook like" feeds into a database. Google can (and did) drive by your house and lift your unsecured network traffic. When you use your debit card, that becomes a data point.

When you go to a casino, you will be categorized by your behaviors and you will receive drinks and incentives as often as your profile shows will keep you parting with your money. The casino will know if you are a borderline addicted gambler - and will happily carry you across that border in a very sophisticated way.

There is no firewall between private information gathering and public. A friend of mine recently spotted a "recommended connection" on LinkedIn who was a doctor that had only performed a disability examination for him. That information could only have been released by an insurer or Social Security. How did LinkedIn get it?

Information is power and information is money. We have every right to be concerned about this.

If the right to be live life outside of a monitored fishbowl is valued in 2013, we need more protections than we had in 1793, not fewer.

June 23, 2013 at 3:17 p.m.
Maximus said...

Clay is as predictable as Alprova. Both are boring, helpless, big government idiots who probably own several of the posh, elitist, Sierra Club t shirts. Funny really how threatened by the Tea Party radical leftists really are. I say, block all so called bi-partisan legislation being brought forward by the Democrats. Come the mid terms there will be hell to pay and even though Obama is now a lame duck, the Democrats will be neutered.

June 23, 2013 at 3:29 p.m.
miraweb said...

It's always good to have a dream, dear.

June 23, 2013 at 3:30 p.m.
tifosi said...

Maximus the Fraud has spoken.

June 23, 2013 at 3:37 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

riveting, tifosi.

June 23, 2013 at 3:49 p.m.
klifnotes said...

rick1 said... Klifnotes letting workers control their health care dollars and tearing down regulatory barriers to competition would control costs, expand choice, improve health care quality, and make health coverage more secure.

Ans: *Hmmm, not necessarily rick1. Some, smaller perhaps, private insurers are already stumbling and competing to save dollars and provide only the most basic of medical care at the cheapest means possible.


rick1 said... "First, Congress should give Medicare enrollees a voucher and the freedom to choose any health plan on the market. Vouchers would be means-tested, would contain Medicare spending, and are the only way to protect seniors from government rationing."

Ans: Actually, Medicare already has a system where recipients have an option with the monthly premiums they pay into Medicare. They can either stick with traditional Medicare or choose coverage with BC/BST, United HealthCare, Humana, Healthsprings and a host of other medical insurance providers. At least for now, those options supported by Medicare oversight are evaluated for quality. Already there signs that some of those coverage aren't up to par and will likely rip seniors off without any oversight if Medicare should pull out altogether. The above mentioned insurance coverage are more accountable even without Medicare intervention or oversight, because they've been in the field longer. It's some of the other, smaller ones that will require oversight.

June 23, 2013 at 4:16 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

"Can you name one person who has been jailed for voicing an unpopular opinion in this nation? I sure can't. So why would I have such a fear?" - alprova

We are living in a turbulent era, politically, socially, and economically. And the "war on terror" induces as much fear in most Americans as the "Red Scare" did in the 50s and 60s. Flash back to the McCarthy witch trials. All it took was one man to fan the flames of fear in the average American and his flimsy, unproven accusations snowballed into hearings and committees and trials that ruined the lives and careers of many otherwise decent Americans. I'm sure that those people never had an inkling that spoken or written words from their past or signed documents that showed even tenuous connections to left-leaning organizations would one day earn them the title of Communist and traitor.

Al, I certainly understand the need for government vigilance in protecting us from terrorism but I in no way understand how you can so unflinchingly and without the least bit of doubt or skepticism give acceptance to what they're doing. For you to say, in a manner of speaking "I trust them to do the right thing" and just let it go at that is being unbelievably simple minded and gullible. But then, maybe you're just covering your ass in case there's another McCarthy-type witch-hunt on the horizon? As Big Brother grows in scope and power, as is happening by the day, at least nobody could accuse you of not being on the side of "the Man."

Having said that, I do not in any way want to appear that I am aligned with libertarians and teabaggers, who hate the government for its own sake. I do not believe that government is intrinsically evil. What is evil about our government today is not that it has too much power but that it is wielding that power for only the select few at the top in their concerted efforts to crush working people and the middle class. The vast majority of our politicians are licking the boots of big business and the rich and bending over backward to please them, just for the sake of getting their hands on their money and increasing their chances for re-election. The whole system has become rigged in favor of the rich puppeteers and their puppet politicians. THAT is what stinks about our oligarchic government today.

June 23, 2013 at 5:11 p.m.
jesse said...

I think ROO just NAILED it!

June 23, 2013 at 5:35 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Not bad, Roo. Except for the 1st sentence of the last paragraph.

June 23, 2013 at 5:45 p.m.
rick1 said...

klifnotes, posted *Hmmm, not necessarily rick1. Some, smaller perhaps, private insurers are already stumbling and competing to save dollars and provide only the most basic of medical care at the cheapest means possible."

It is reported there are approximately 10,000 pages of regulations under the ObamaCare Law. Some of these regulations include price controls and other mandates that require insurance companies to cover mental health, substance abuse treatment,pediatric dental and vision care, and it requires that insurance plans pay for "habilitative services" for those with medical conditions who want to learn new skills — benefits few individual or small group plans provide today. None of this is free and the costs must be passed onto those who have insurance, which will increase your costs.

I believe ObamaCare is designed to fail as it will drive up insurance costs so high and that will be used as a the reason to go to a single payer system, which is what a lot of Obama supporters including Obama wanted. Obama knew he could not come out and say it when ObamaCare was being rammed through but he has made it known years ago he favored a single payer system.

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/022113-645288-obamacare-benefit-mandates-just-the-beginning.htm

http://www.cato.org/publications/congressional-testimony/ppacas-health-insurance-exchanges-medicaid-expansion

In response to your post on medicare please see the below listed links.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/end-medicare-use-vouchers-deregulate-insurance

http://www.heritage.org/research/commentary/2012/09/that-terrifying-medicare-voucher-threat

June 23, 2013 at 6:06 p.m.
klifnotes said...

rick1 said: It is reported there are approximately 10,000 pages of regulations under the ObamaCare Law. Some of these regulations include price controls and other mandates that require insurance companies to cover mental health, substance abuse treatment,pediatric dental and vision care, and it requires that insurance plans pay for "habilitative services" for those with medical conditions who want to learn new skills


Most all of that and then some are already covered under company insurance plans. Depending on what you mean by "habilitative service", that too is covered under many company healthcare plans.

Eye exams + purchase of one pair of classes every year or every two years. Dental, medical, hospitalization, transplants, certain types of reconstructive surgeries. Hearing etc. Everywhere I've ever worked the company health plans provided those type coverage.

June 23, 2013 at 6:30 p.m.
rick1 said...

klifnotes, those are mandates that insurance companies are required to provide, which get passed onto the consumer and increase the cost of insurance.

To reduce the cost of insurance you should pick the policy that best fits your needs and not be forced to purchase services you do not wish to purchase.

June 23, 2013 at 6:40 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

How many Tea-Party sponsored bills have been signed into law? Zero. How many Tea-Party initiatives were signed into law since 2010? Zero.


Since bills are categorized as either Republican or Democratic how can you make that determination? The only way would be to take every bill that has been signed into law and see if there are no Tea Party affiliated congresspersons listed as sponsors. If you have that information you can submit it but I doubt that you do.

In addition the obstruction of GOP bills by the Democrat Senate and president would have a much greater impact on these proposed bills that the GOP’s lack of effort.


What kind of legislation has been proposed by Tea-Party members?

Anti-abortion bills, Bills intended to cut funding to Planned Parenthood, proposals of deep cuts to social programs, and most recently, are proposing bills opposing immigration reform.


From FactChecker:

While congressional Republicans have certainly introduced dozens of bills on social issues and other topics, the claim that the GOP has focused on issues other than job creation just isn't supported. The numbers cited in the post include Democratic bills, and the definition of what constitutes a "job creation" bill is open to significant debate.

But the post’s most important flaw is the contention that Republicans have offered "zero" bills on job creation. This number stems from a methodology that also excludes Obama’s American Jobs Act from the category of "job creation" bills. If you look at alternative job-related subject headings, the number of bills offered by lawmakers from both parties actually exceeds most of the social-issues listed in the blog post. We rate this claim Pants on Fire.


The Tea-Party peaked in early 2010. They have received a five point boost in approval ratings since the IRS "Scandal" broke. In January of this year, the Tea-Party had the support of only 23% of the American people.

By next year, Americans will be yawning at any mention of the Tea-Party, and candidates will be loathe to identify themselves as Tea Party Patriots.


Haven't you been repeating that same mantra for at least a year? Does the clock reset every time you do so?

If the Tea Party approval is 28% that puts them within striking range of the percentage of registered Democrats.

June 23, 2013 at 7:18 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

librul said...

Fourth Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution - you know, what G.W. Bush called "Just a gdda*ed piece of paper."


You librul's sure love your talking points... Right?

From FactCheck:

The report that Bush "screamed" those words at Republican congressional leaders in November 2005 is unsubstantiated, to put it charitably.

We judge that the odds that the report is accurate hover near zero. It comes from Capitol Hill Blue, a Web site that has a history of relying on phony sources, retracting stories and apologizing to its readers.

Update, Feb. 21, 2011: The author of the Capitol Hill Blue story has now withdrawn it. Doug Thompson messaged us to say:

Doug Thompson: This is to let you know that the piece on Bush and the Constitution has been changed and reads:

"This article was based on sources that we thought, at the time, were reliable. We have since discovered reasons to doubt their veracity. For that reason, this article has been removed from our database."

I no longer stand behind that article or its conclusions and have said so in answers to several recent queries. In addition, I have asked that it be removed from a documentary film.

June 23, 2013 at 7:23 p.m.
klifnotes said...

rick1 said... klifnotes, those are mandates that insurance companies are required to provide, which get passed onto the consumer and increase the cost of insurance.

Are you talking about before the Affordable Care Act or after the Bill was passed? Before, not every company was required to offer eye exam coverage, hearing etc. Many did anyway.


To reduce the cost of insurance you should pick the policy that best fits your needs and not be forced to purchase services you do not wish to purchase.

I honestly can agree or disagree with the above. As I've not completely and fully read the conditions under the Affordable Care Act an individual person might be required to purchase.

June 23, 2013 at 7:29 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Rickaroo said...

I do not believe that government is intrinsically evil. What is evil about our government today is not that it has too much power but that it is wielding that power for only the select few at the top in their concerted efforts to crush working people and the middle class. The vast majority of our politicians are licking the boots of big business and the rich and bending over backward to please them, just for the sake of getting their hands on their money and increasing their chances for re-election. The whole system has become rigged in favor of the rich puppeteers and their puppet politicians. THAT is what stinks about our oligarchic government today.


Have you ever thought, if you give great power to an organization, it naturally attracts those that will manipulate it for their own personal gathering of wealth and power? While the normal citizen is conducting the normal activities, of sustaining their everyday lives, those people are devoting their every waking hours to that task.

How are you to ever control an all powerful government to prevent these people from subverting it to their use? You can’t and the only action is to limit it in scope and size and to gather it’s power centers closer to you as is reasonable.

Government is not intrinsically evil but is a mechanism to be employed by society to collectively address issues that citizens can not address themselves individually such as a legal system, defense, and natural monopolies. However just as too much of a substance that would normally cure you can also kill you government must be taken in only safe doses.

June 23, 2013 at 7:49 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpo says of "tea party propositions"....Anti-abortion bills, Bills intended to cut funding to Planned Parenthood, proposals of deep cuts to social programs, and most recently, are proposing bills opposing immigration reform. so what's the beef, Alpy?

June 23, 2013 at 8:21 p.m.
alprova said...

rickaroo wrote: "Al, I certainly understand the need for government vigilance in protecting us from terrorism but I in no way understand how you can so unflinchingly and without the least bit of doubt or skepticism give acceptance to what they're doing."

I believe in people. I don't look at Washington and see goblins with evil intent on their minds, just waiting to find something on you or myself to carry out this evil plan to put us all away.

"For you to say, in a manner of speaking "I trust them to do the right thing" and just let it go at that is being unbelievably simple minded and gullible."

Okay, then...how about you explain to me what you fear the Government is up to and how it would personally affect your life?

Nothing you do or say on the phone or on the Internet is private at all. There are people, the vast majority of whom are not Government intelligence gatherers with top-secret clearance, who are privy to all of your information. I don't see any of you concerned about that.

"But then, maybe you're just covering your ass in case there's another McCarthy-type witch-hunt on the horizon?"

Nope. I type what I mean 24/7/365. I have no fear of the Government. I've done nothing to have any fear whatsoever.

"As Big Brother grows in scope and power, as is happening by the day, at least nobody could accuse you of not being on the side of "the Man."..."

I consider myself a realist. I don't get wrapped up in very much of anything that I cannot change or that does not affect me.

I have no fear from the NSA data-mining my communications. But let's say I were to suddenly join all of you in agreement that it is wrong. What can any one of us do to stop it? Are any of you under the impression that soliciting Congress will result in a single thing being changed?

Hell...they are the ones who just reauthorized it and sent it to the President's desk in January.

"What is evil about our government today is not that it has too much power but that it is wielding that power for only the select few at the top in their concerted efforts to crush working people and the middle class."

If that were true, then it would seem to me that they would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Working people pay taxes. Crush them and they don't.

(to be cont.)

June 23, 2013 at 8:51 p.m.
alprova said...

(cont.)

"The vast majority of our politicians are licking the boots of big business and the rich and bending over backward to please them, just for the sake of getting their hands on their money and increasing their chances for re-election."

Now that I agree with, but eventually, politicians will see the error of their ways, because those at the top are not in numbers high enough to persuade the vast majority of the citizens to vote for them. This last election proved that quite nicely.

"The whole system has become rigged in favor of the rich puppeteers and their puppet politicians. THAT is what stinks about our oligarchic government today."

I believe in my heart that the mid-terms will rectify things in our favor by a wide margin. If the Republicans keep up their fine jobs of attempting to vilify the President, I'm certain that there will be a purging of some bad apples.

June 23, 2013 at 8:51 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1, why don't we all wait until October, to start flapping our wings about ObamCare?

For three years, people have been making all kinds of predictions about what will or will not happen. This October, we will see the proof one way or the other.

Until then, any and all discussion about are merely farts in the wind.

June 23, 2013 at 9:02 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "Since bills are categorized as either Republican or Democratic how can you make that determination? The only way would be to take every bill that has been signed into law and see if there are no Tea Party affiliated congresspersons listed as sponsors. If you have that information you can submit it but I doubt that you do."

Trust me dear, I did my research on that one. The Tea-Party people in Congress are well known. Every bill has it's sponsor and a list of co-sponsors, if others decide to join the sponsor.

If you think I am going to post every single person who sponsored a bill in the 112th and the 113th Congress to refute your challenge, you are crazy.

If it is so important to you to refute me, go dig up the proof yourself.

Just so you understand, not one Tea-Party member of Congress, has sponsored a bill that has passed both Houses of Congress, since they have been in office in 2011.


Your challenge via "Fact-Checker" is equally off mark. I only referred to the efforts of those identified as Tea-Party members. I personally made not mention of Republicans not offering "jobs" bills. I identified the bills that Tea-Party members have concentrated on offering.

Now go back and try again.

"Haven't you been repeating that same mantra for at least a year? Does the clock reset every time you do so?"

Huh?

"If the Tea Party approval is 28% that puts them within striking range of the percentage of registered Democrats."

Do you really think so? When last polled, Democrats were receiving a 44% approval rating, while all Republicans enjoyed a 26% approval rating.

June 23, 2013 at 9:35 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, with all due respect businesses and local governments (see the links below)know what is coming down the line and it is not good. I know you are a big supporter of ObamaCare and I know you are also a business owner and you too know the premiums for the insurance you provide your employees will increase.

You said last week that you will be receiving a 15 percent tax credit for providing insurance to your employees. According to the IRS website the tax credit is specifically targeted for those with low- and moderate-income workers. the credit is available to small employers that pay at least half the cost of single coverage for their employees. Since your employees are in the low to moderate income range are you going to cover the cost of family plans as well? If not are you going to compensate your employees so they can afford to purchase the family plan?

http://news.investors.com/061913-660419-local-governments-cut-hours-to-avoid-obamacare-mandate.htm?p=full

http://www.khi.org/news/2013/jun/10/obamacare-concern-small-rural-school-districts/

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Affordable-Care-Act-Tax-Provisions

June 23, 2013 at 9:35 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Al, with all due respect businesses and local governments (see the links below)know what is coming down the line and it is not good."

Nobody KMOWS a doggone thing, because the plans have not been rolled out for perusal yet. Until they are, everyone who has an opinion, is basing it on predictive quantities that are not yet in evidence.

Their mindset is based on what insurance companies are offering under the present system. All that will change in October.

"I know you are a big supporter of ObamaCare and I know you are also a business owner and you too know the premiums for the insurance you provide your employees will increase."

I have not been notified that my premiums are going up at all. In October, when the pooled plans are rolled out onto the table, I will then be looking to see what is available and at what cost.

At that point, I will consider what is best for myself and my employees. I intend to consult each and every one of my employees to see what it is that they want to do.

I've been neck deep in understanding ObamaCare. But what I do not know, nor can predict, is what plans will be offered, and at what cost.

Insurance companies know full and well that their futures are all on the line and the worst thing they can do after 2014, would be to offer rates for coverage that people cannot afford.

I'm waiting to see what comes out in October. Then and only then, will we have a glimpse of things to come.

"You said last week that you will be receiving a 15 percent tax credit for providing insurance to your employees. According to the IRS website the tax credit is specifically targeted for those with low- and moderate-income workers. the credit is available to small employers that pay at least half the cost of single coverage for their employees. Since your employees are in the low to moderate income range are you going to cover the cost of family plans as well?"

I do now. I do not receive a credit for family coverage, but I do receive the benefit of off-setting income taxes with the expense deductions I claim for my portion of the premiums that I am paying for family coverage.

"If not are you going to compensate your employees so they can afford to purchase the family plan?"

I'm anticipating saving money paid out for benefits after the first of next year for both employee and family coverage.

June 23, 2013 at 9:48 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, so local governments and other businesses know how ObamaCare is going to impact their bottom line and are making adjustments, which include reducing employee hours from full time to part time to off set the cost of ObamaCare. But you do not have any idea how ObamaCare is going to impact your business?

Al, you are a numbers guy, you have not spoken with your insurance carrier to get an idea of what the costs are going to be?

June 23, 2013 at 9:59 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Al, so local governments and other businesses know how ObamaCare is going to impact their bottom line and are making adjustments, which include reducing employee hours from full time to part time to off set the cost of ObamaCare."

I'm not interested in debating what others are doing. That's their little red wagon to pull around. I repeat, no one on the face of this earth can reliably predict what plans will be available and at what cost.

I believe that employers will be pleasantly surprised when the plans are rolled out in October. I'm willing to wait and see if I am correct in my prediction.

If I am incorrect, I promise you, I will take any and all criticism like a man.

"But you do not have any idea how ObamaCare is going to impact your business?"

Whatever comes down the pike, I will weather it just fine.

"Al, you are a numbers guy, you have not spoken with your insurance carrier to get an idea of what the costs are going to be?"

No I haven't and the reason why I haven't is that come this October, I'm going to have lots of choices to sort through. When I have a full understanding of those choices, I will then petition my insurer to meet or beat what I am quite confident will be more cost effective offerings.

I'll be happy to revisit this issue in October. Until then, no one knows what is truly in store for us all.

June 23, 2013 at 10:12 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

Trust me dear, I did my research on that one. The Tea-Party people in Congress are well known. Every bill has it's sponsor and a list of co-sponsors, if others decide to join the sponsor.

If you think I am going to post every single person who sponsored a bill in the 112th and the 113th Congress to refute your challenge, you are crazy.

If it is so important to you to refute me, go dig up the proof yourself.

Just so you understand, not one Tea-Party member of Congress, has sponsored a bill that has passed both Houses of Congress, since they have been in office in 2011.


From your own list of bills passed and signed:

H.R. 258, the Stolen Valor Act of 2013

From the list of Tea Party members you linked to:

Co sponsor: Phil Roe, Republican U.S. Representative from Tennessee's 1st congressional district (2009–present) and a member of the Tea Party Caucus.

Your research is lacking as usual


Your challenge via "Fact-Checker" is equally off mark. I only referred to the efforts of those identified as Tea-Party members. I personally made not mention of Republicans not offering "jobs" bills. I identified the bills that Tea-Party members have concentrated on offering.


Your implication was that the Tea Party supporting congresspersons were using their time introducing bills that do not address the serious problems of this country and FactCheck says you are wrong.

I think that targeted you claims quite well and proved them wrong which I didn’t mind posting the proof once again.

June 23, 2013 at 11:20 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "From your own list of bills passed and signed: H.R. 258, the Stolen Valor Act of 2013"

"From the list of Tea Party members you linked to: Co sponsor: Phil Roe, Republican U.S. Representative from Tennessee's 1st congressional district (2009–present) and a member of the Tea Party Caucus."

Who stated a thing about co-sponsors? My statement was that not one bill SPONSORED by a Tea-Party member has been passed by both Houses of Congress.

Representative Joseph Heck, of Nevada, a rank and file Republican sponsored that bill, as I'm sure you are aware.

"Your research is lacking as usual"

Your propensity to refuse to stick to what I have stated is quite predictable.

Try again.

"Your implication was that the Tea Party supporting congresspersons were using their time introducing bills that do not address the serious problems of this country and FactCheck says you are wrong."

Will you be so kind to point out anyone considered to be Tea-Party members of Congress that was mentioned in the Fact-Checker article that you have now twice claimed makes my assertions incorrect?

"I think that targeted you claims quite well and proved them wrong which I didn’t mind posting the proof once again."

Notwithstanding the fact that it appears that you would argue with a knothole in a fence, your demonstration only proves that you will forever be a legend in your own mind.

June 23, 2013 at 11:41 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Like nailing jello to the wall.

Moving the goal post is you one and only real talent.

June 23, 2013 at 11:53 p.m.
alprova said...

My dear, what goal post did I move? Every piece of legislation has a sponsor and it may or may not have co-sponsors who sign on to it.

My statement was very clear. I stated that not one bill sponsored by a Tea-Party Caucus member has passed both Houses of Congress to become law.

You are the one who chose to equivocate that a sponsor and a co-sponsor were one and the same.

Don't blame me for your lack of understanding of how the sponsor of a bill is defined.

A member or members can add his or her name formally in support of another members bill. In the House a member can become a co-sponsor of a bill at any point up to the time the last authorized committee considers it. In the Senate a member can become a co-sponsor of a bill anytime before the vote takes place on the bill. However, a co-sponsor is not required and therefore, not every bill has a co-sponsor or co-sponsors.

June 23, 2013 at 11:59 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Prepare for the worst re Gang of Eight bill.

June 24, 2013 at 7:16 a.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said ...

My dear, what goal post did I move? Every piece of legislation has a sponsor and it may or may not have co-sponsors who sign on to it.

My statement was very clear. I stated that not one bill sponsored by a Tea-Party Caucus member has passed both Houses of Congress to become law.

You are the one who chose to equivocate that a sponsor and a co-sponsor were one and the same. Don't blame me for your lack of understanding of how the sponsor of a bill is defined.


In the Senate if a bill has more than one sponsor they may all be listed as such before the bill is entered and after that if someone else wants to show support they can sign on as co-sponsors. In the House the rule is different in that only one sponsor is listed no matter how many original sponsors there are. The additional sponsors at that time are called primary co-sponsors to distinguish them from supporters that sign on after the bill is entered and are called secondary sponsors.

As a result and for all practical purposes in the House the sponsor and the primary co-sponsors can very much be the same and their different identifiers are simply a function of House procedure.

June 24, 2013 at 8:12 a.m.
potcat said...

Klifnotes, i mean Pam,

This thread is being editorialized by a professional TFP writter! I went and read Klifty Shifty former post and damn if they did'nt scream Times Editor.

Shady Boots...........

I am getting cut off after this one, Shifty will no doubt deny, but i cannot leave here without outing this shameful act. The air of superiority was very telling, but reading former postings was a "light Bulb" moment.

Here's one for the wingnuts, Sex, President, woman, sex,President,woman.

I could lay it out, but get your tinfoil hat on and adjust antenna to recieve all the signals and put two and two together.

June 24, 2013 at 9:11 a.m.
alprova said...

Okay...I can see that you are prepared to argue to the end of the Earth that one Tea-Party member sponsored a bill that was signed into law.

As it was, there were 127 co-sponsors to that bill, but by golly you found one Tea-Party member who signed on.

Alert the Press!! We need to throw a Party!!!

My oh my what a good job those Tea-Party politicians are doing.

The sole accomplishment in two and a half years has been to see to it that anyone who lies about receiving a medal of honor, will receive a proper punishment for such a lie.

After all, that piece of legislation was so important and the American people will forever be grateful that it was passed.

LMAO!!!

June 24, 2013 at 9:22 a.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

Okay...I can see that you are prepared to argue to the end of the Earth that one Tea-Party member sponsored a bill that was signed into law.

(No just wanting to point out that you made a definitive statement you couldn’t back up and was proven wrong yet will not admit to your mistake)

As it was, there were 127 co-sponsors to that bill, but by golly you found one Tea-Party member who signed on.

Alert the Press!! We need to throw a Party!!!

My oh my what a good job those Tea-Party politicians are doing. The sole accomplishment in two and a half years has been to see to it that anyone who lies about receiving a medal of honor, will receive a proper punishment for such a lie.

After all, that piece of legislation was so important and the American people will forever be grateful that it was passed.

(The point is not the number of sponsors or how important the bill was but that you were making such a racket that no Tea Party members sponsored any bill that was passed and signed into law.)

You stated:

“My statement was very clear. I stated that not one bill sponsored by a Tea-Party Caucus member has passed both Houses of Congress to become law.”

(Splitting hairs over the difference between sponsor and co-sponsor does you no good as you can see below.)

From your above list of bills passed and signed by the president:

The Mark Twain Commemorative Coin Act

Sponsor - Blaine Luetkemeyer, Republican U.S. Representative from Missouri's 9th congressional district (2009–present) and a member of the Tea Party Caucus.

To amend the Electronic Fund Transfer Act

Sponsor - Blaine Luetkemeyer, Republican U.S. Representative from Missouri's 9th congressional district (2009–present) and a member of the Tea Party Caucus.

FISA Amendments Act Reauthorization Act of 2012

Sponsor - Lamar Smith, Republican U.S. Representative from Texas's 21st congressional district(1987–present) and a member of the Tea Party Caucus.

One more point ... You are always claiming that you bring truth and fact to this web site and are determined to point out others that do not. However when your errors are pointed out it is like pulling teeth to get you to concede that fact.

June 24, 2013 at 10:03 a.m.
Leaf said...

jtwhatever and Al can argue minutia with the best of them. I hope they never get into an argument over the value of Pi.

June 24, 2013 at 10:19 a.m.
jesse said...

Leaf! They both have the same motto!

" Iknow i have faults BUT being wrong ain't one of them!"

June 24, 2013 at 11:02 a.m.
limric said...

Everything’s fine Alprova? We have to make a choice between safety and liberty/privacy?

Stay Calm & Carry On?

Have you read the ‘McClatchy’ report about a program called "Insider Threat"? It requires federal employees to keep a close watch on each other—it’s an effort (can you say Gestapo) to crackdown on whistleblowers and leakers across the U.S. government.

From the report: “Hammer this fact home - leaking is tantamount to aiding the enemies of the United States,” says one of the documents—a June 1, 2012 Defense Department strategy written for the program. As the documents reveal, any "leaks to the media are officially equated with espionage," through the administration's eyes.

Considering your generally moderate stance, I find your take on the NSA/Snowden/fourth amendment issue a bit frightening. I think it's fair of me to say that someone like you, who I would call a good American, and who would recoil at what happened in Europe in the 1940’s, is unsuspectingly mimicking the very behavior of those that blindingly supported something so completely totalitarian and ultimately destructive.

CHRIS HEDGES: "Well, we’re talking about the death of a free press, the death of a civil society... 'We make the East German Stasi state look like the Boy Scouts. And if we don’t wrest back this power for privacy, for the capacity to investigate what our power elite is doing, I think we can essentially say our democracy has been snuffed out. It is another reminder of our slide into totalitarianism.”

Maybe reading some Arnold Toynbee would help your perspective. Quote: ”Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.”

June 24, 2013 at 1:11 p.m.
alprova said...

Lmiric wrote: "Everything’s fine Alprova? We have to make a choice between safety and liberty/privacy?"

Whether anyone thinks it's fine or not, my postion is rather simple. Not any one of us will ever be able to stop it.

I'm not bothered by it. Some of you are. I'm sorry I can't join you in being upset about it. I have more pressing issues to deal with in my life.

June 24, 2013 at 1:25 p.m.
jesse said...

"The past is prologue"!

One of the truest thing Shakespeare ever said!

Al is right tho ,we are past the point of no return!

Govmt.NEVER gives up authority once they have it!

June 24, 2013 at 1:34 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

What have you done with the real Limric?

June 24, 2013 at 2:39 p.m.
klifnotes said...

potcat said... Klifnotes, i mean Pam, This thread is being editorialized by a professional TFP writter! I went and read Klifty Shifty former post and damn if they did'nt scream Times Editor


I consider it the greatest honor to be mistaken for Ms Pam. Not only is she more intelligent and much more classy and prettier than I can ever hope to be, her writing skills are better and worldview are everything and then some that I'll never likely aspire to. ;)

Thank YOU!! THANK YOU! T H A N K Y O U!!!! :) :> ;) ;>

June 24, 2013 at 2:53 p.m.
alprova said...

JT, you found three bills "sponsored" by Tea-Party Caucus members.

Three. Three in two and a half years.

You're tooting a horn that is quite ridiculous.

I guess you consider the authorization to mint of a commemorative coin, and to make ATM's show Fees before a transaction is made, important and meaningful legislation.

Now one sponsored the renewal of the FISA court. Doesn't that play into what has some of you folks upset at the moment?

Take the point. I couldn't care less.

The Tea-Party Caucus has been sitting on their hands for four years, unable to push through anything that they have on their agenda, which by the way is described on my list.

Debunk that one, if you can, Missy.

June 24, 2013 at 2:55 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

No I haven't and the reason why I haven't is that come this October, I'm going to have lots of choices to sort through. When I have a full understanding of those choices, I will then petition my insurer to meet or beat what I am quite confident will be more cost effective offerings.

I think you will learn that if you try to change carriers you will have to have a medical certification with pre-existing conditions considered. You made your one no pre-existing conditions revealed choice and that carrier will be your choice or you can pay a high risk premium or be denied by another carrier. You may want to check it out before being confident you can negotiate with them.

I agree that there will be a learning event come this enrollment and an even greater one the following year (2015) when Pelosi's pass it to learn what it is comes true.

June 24, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

JT, you found three bills "sponsored" by Tea-Party Caucus members.

Three. Three in two and a half years.

You're tooting a horn that is quite ridiculous.

(No, I posted those three for one hilarious reason and that is they appeared in your post immediately after you stated that absolutely no Tea Party bills had been passed and signed into law)

I guess you consider the authorization to mint of a commemorative coin, and to make ATM's show Fees before a transaction is made, important and meaningful legislation.

(It was on your list)

Now one sponsored the renewal of the FISA court. Doesn't that play into what has some of you folks upset at the moment?

(That one I thought you would appreciate since you seem to have an affinity for intrusive government)

Take the point. I couldn't care less.

(Of course you do or you wouldn’t continue to pursue this issue. When you get your ego bruised you will expend a great amount of effort on CYA spin)

The Tea-Party Caucus has been sitting on their hands for four years, unable to push through anything that they have on their agenda, which by the way is described on my list.

Debunk that one, if you can, Missy.

(Easily done ... a Democrat controlled Senate and a Democrat president but on the other hand Obama and the Senate have the same type of problem ... sitting on their hands the last 2 1/2 years)

June 24, 2013 at 4:17 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Hard to imagine how even the most ardent Obama supporter has much to toot about re his administation's accomplishments.

June 24, 2013 at 4:23 p.m.
Leaf said...

I think most Obama supporters are disappointed that he actually turned out to be a Reagan Republican. But that sure beats the alternative - Senile Hawk McCain and Crazy Palin.

McCain's answer to every question is "drop some bombs!" Syrian civil war? - "Crater the runways." Iran? "Bomb bomb bomb Iran." How many wars would we be simultaneously waging if McCain was in charge?

June 24, 2013 at 4:44 p.m.
tifosi said...

Plaintruth: He managed to do something the Republicans tried to do, but failed at it numerous times. Address the healthcare crisis. It may not be perfect, but it is a compromise that made it through the House and Senate, then challenged at the Supreme Court. President Obama did something no one else could do. Not even President G.W. Bush.

June 24, 2013 at 5:41 p.m.
tifosi said...

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Theodore Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

June 24, 2013 at 5:48 p.m.
rick1 said...

Leaf wrote: "I think most Obama supporters are disappointed that he actually turned out to be a Reagan Republican."

Not even close,(see the link below as to why Obama is nothing like Reagan) in fact Obama is more like G.W. Bush

Bush increased government spending. Obama has been increasing government spending.

Bush adopted Keynesian “stimulus” policies. Obama adopted Keynesian “stimulus” policies.

Bush bailed out politically connected companies. Obama has been bailing out politically connected companies.

Bush supported the Fed’s easy-money policy. Obama has been supporting the Fed’s easy-money policy.

Bush created a new healthcare entitlement. Obama created a new healthcare entitlement.

Bush imposed costly new regulations on the financial sector. Obama imposed costly new regulations on the financial sector.

So tell me the difference between the economic policies of Bush and Obama?

http://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/one-year-later-another-look-at-obamanomics-vs-reaganomics/

June 24, 2013 at 6:36 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "(No, I posted those three for one hilarious reason and that is they appeared in your post immediately after you stated that absolutely no Tea Party bills had been passed and signed into law)"

The joke is on the Tea-Party Caucus members. Three quite lame bills. That's quite a record that 53 Congressional members are going to be running on come reelection time.

You've proven that it wasn't zero, but you've also done a fine job of exposing them for not getting much done at all.

"(Of course you do or you wouldn’t continue to pursue this issue. When you get your ego bruised you will expend a great amount of effort on CYA spin)"

And you don't? You're just as bad as I am. You failed to provide an ounce of proof that one Tea-Party member sponsored one meaningful piece of legislation, other than perhaps the reauthorization of the FISA Court, which most of you folk have been whining has been a power grab.

"(Easily done ... a Democrat controlled Senate and a Democrat president but on the other hand Obama and the Senate have the same type of problem ... sitting on their hands the last 2 1/2 years)"

President Obama has vetoed 2 bills in four and a half years. The vast majority of the bills sponsored by Tea-Party Congress members were defeated in the House by Rank & File Republicans.

I repeat;

Anti-abortion bills, Bills intended to cut funding to Planned Parenthood, proposals of deep cuts to social programs, and most recently, their opposition to immigration reform, seems to be the extent and the bulk of the Tea-Party member's legislative agenda.

June 24, 2013 at 7:15 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Tifosi: Not sure that pushing thru a badly flawed healthcare bill is noble.

June 24, 2013 at 7:50 p.m.
delmar said...
June 24, 2013 at 7:51 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Potus, Vpotus to meet with Big 4. McConnell, Boehner, Pelosi & Reid. 6 losers, IMO.

June 24, 2013 at 8:03 p.m.
klifnotes said...

On the Snowden and the federal surveillance/spying saga, most of you wouldn't know this very thing has been taking place on a local and state level for quite a number of years. Yes, your local/state law enforcement has been spying on you, me and most anyone they so choose and often not necessarily bothering to obtain legal permission to do so. :(

June 24, 2013 at 8:14 p.m.
joepulitzer said...

Mike Huckabee: Liberals are against pain for animals and whales and dolphins and even walk around naked to protest the wearing of fur. They are against torture when it comes to terrorists, and against the death penalty for criminals who rape and murder, even when the decision to execute a criminal is the result of years of legal maneuvering and careful consideration of evidence and guilt determined by a jury. But they demand the right of carrying out the death penalty on an unborn child at any time for any reason and even insist that it all be called “women’s health.” Can’t be too healthy for the baby, and if it’s a little girl baby, I would think that would be bad for that little woman’s health. Liberals say they don’t want the government in the bedrooms, and I assure you, I don’t want to get in a liberal’s bedroom, but if something happens in the bedroom that they didn’t plan, they do want the government to come in, clean up the mess, and make the rest of us pay for it.

Liberals just don't make sense...

June 24, 2013 at 8:36 p.m.
fairmon said...

PlainTruth said...

Tifosi: Not sure that pushing thru a badly flawed healthcare bill is noble

Very tactful and mild way of describing a train wreck. Have you heard it said that putting a plan or program on the "fast track" to approval is a head long rush to disaster?

Some suggest it is not perfect but will be modified over time. It has not yet been determined how to create chicken salad from chicken droppings. It would take a similar feat to make the AHCA that was created for political purposes by insurers to increase business a viable program.

June 24, 2013 at 9:05 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said..

The vast majority of the bills sponsored by Tea-Party Congress members were defeated in the House by Rank & File Republicans. I repeat; Anti-abortion bills, Bills intended to cut funding to Planned Parenthood, proposals of deep cuts to social programs, and most recently, their opposition to immigration reform, seems to be the extent and the bulk of the Tea-Party member's legislative agenda.

alprova makes a point.....I don't understand the conservatives objection to abortion when considering over 80% are obtained by those that would be birthing a dependent they object to supporting through those corrupt social programs they oppose.

The abuse and misuse is wide spread. How many people know what the universal connectivity charge on their phone bill is for? A radio news program yesterday reported a woman that had 30 active free cell phones. The provider of free cell phones admitted they had issued them to people that had their own cellular phone with several apps.

June 24, 2013 at 9:31 p.m.

Hmm. “Treading on” liberals’ contempt for the Constitutional limitations of the federal government – not the least bit ironic, but you gotta love the consternation the Tea Party reliably brings to Clay Bennett and the Democratic National Committee. Keep bringing it.

June 24, 2013 at 9:53 p.m.
fairmon said...

joepulitzer said... http://www.studentnewsdaily.com/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

Excellent. Thanks for sharing. I think I just confirmed I am closer to being libertarian if a label is required.

June 24, 2013 at 9:54 p.m.
alprova said...

joepulitzer, the only problem with Mike Huckabee's quote is that not one Liberal that regularly participates in this forum has ever stated that abortions are to be handed out like candy, or used as a means of birth control.

No one has advocated for publicly funded abortions, which by the way do not exist in this country to start with. Publicly funded abortions are a myth.

I have no problem with the death penalty, as long as there is no question lingering to a person's guilt who has been convicted of a crime and handed a death penalty verdict by a jury.

I do confess to having a very soft spot in my heart for animals. I personally would never by a garment made from any animal.

And finally, in this country, anyone accused of a crime, even that of terrorism, deserves the same access to our courts to defend themselves. We are supposed to be better than terrorists and humane in our treatment of all people.

I quite honestly cannot see a man of God, as Mike Huckabee holds himself out to be, believing that torture, under any circumstances, would be approved by God.

June 24, 2013 at 10:27 p.m.
alprova said...

joepulitzer, the author of that article is not disclosed, but it doesn't really matter who wrote it. It is digest of perceptions, and nothing more.

Note every Liberal believes that which was attributed to them by the author and not ever Conservative believes that which was attributed to them.

I am quite Liberal these days, but I depart in so many ways from many, if not most of those perceived Liberal beliefs.

I truly do not understand why it is that some people on this planet must put people into a nice, neat, imaginary box, especially when it comes to politics.

Judgments of people should always be made on an individual basis.

When it comes to those laundry lists, I doubt that you would find very many people who would believe each and every one of those points, depending on whether they are Liberal or Conservative.

June 24, 2013 at 10:43 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "The abuse and misuse is wide spread. How many people know what the universal connectivity charge on their phone bill is for? A radio news program yesterday reported a woman that had 30 active free cell phones. The provider of free cell phones admitted they had issued them to people that had their own cellular phone with several apps."

What do people expect, when someone is handed a Government funded contract and is paid for every phone they hand out? There is no income verification requirement, they are not tied to any person, and never an iota of following up to verify a thing surrounding the issuing of those phones out.

I wouldn't be surprised one day, to learn that they have been handed out to millionaires.

This is one of many issues that Congress could be working on, to reign in wasteful spending, but instead, anti-abortion, renaming Post Offices, holding expensive legislative votes to protest ObamaCare 37 times in three years, and a procession of meaningless legislative efforts, has taken precedence for the last three and a half years.

Those men and women in Washington have come to be known as no better than petty children arguing on a playground. And yes, I do mean those on both sides of the aisle.

June 24, 2013 at 10:53 p.m.
alprova said...

Since ObamCare has been a topic of interest in this thread, I just wanted to pass on a few of interesting sites:

http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-facts.php

http://factcheck.org/2012/06/how-much-is-the-obamacare-tax/

You can even get a glimpse of what will be offered nationally to people come this October. The ObamaCare test site is up and running:

http://finder.healthcare.gov/

June 24, 2013 at 11:17 p.m.
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