published Sunday, May 1st, 2011

Islamic center going up on Gunbarrel

Barry Ward, site superintendent for construction of the Islamic Community of Greater Chattanooga's new Islamic center, points to what will be the entrance of the domed building  Friday.
Staff Photo by Allison Carter/Chattanooga Times Free Press
Barry Ward, site superintendent for construction of the Islamic Community of Greater Chattanooga's new Islamic center, points to what will be the entrance of the domed building Friday. Staff Photo by Allison Carter/Chattanooga Times Free Press

ABOUT THE CHATTANOOGA ISLAMIC CENTER


• The land, about 2.7 acres, was purchased on Dec. 17, 2007.

• The 22,000-square-foot center will include 12,000 square feet for classrooms, 6,000 square feet for a gymnasium/community center and about 4,000 square feet for the prayer area.

• It will include a kitchen and day care center.

• The circular, domed building has a diameter of 160 feet with a roof 35 feet high.

• The dome design fits with traditional Islamic architecture and is energy efficient.

Source: Islamic Society of Greater Chattanooga, Dome Technology Inc.

Construction is under way on Gunbarrel Road for what will become the largest center for Islamic worship and studies in Chattanooga.

Work began a couple of weeks ago on what’s still pretty much a flat piece of land. Gravel and sticks form a huge circle, 160 feet in diameter, offering no signs or other clues about what eventually will occupy the 2.7-acre site on the corner of Gunbarrel and Standifer Gap roads.

It’s not a secret, said officials with the Islamic Community of Greater Chattanooga, and most neighbors seem to know what it’s going to be when completed.

Planning for the building was well under way last summer, when fear and mistrust in Murfreesboro exploded into opposition to construction of an Islamic center there.

Bassam Issa, a member of the Chattanooga nonprofit’s board of directors, said the board members weren’t concerned as they embarked on site work last month.

“I have lived in Chattanooga for 38 years; all my kids were born here,” said Issa, also a local real estate developer.

“I feel like I’m Chattanoogan, a Tennessean and I’m an American,” he said, adding that Chattanooga always has welcomed its diverse communities.

When completed in about a year, the $2 million Chattanooga Islamic Center will include a place of worship, a school and an activity center.

The center will accommodate at least 1,200 people. That’s the group’s estimate for the number of Muslims in the region, including areas as far away as Jasper and Cleveland, Tenn.

Gayle O’Brien, who lives across the street from the site, said she doesn’t have any problems with the project.

“None of us [the neighbors] seem to be upset about it,” she said.

She said she’s against the building of a masjid in New York, near ground zero — site of the 9/11 terrorist attack — but this is different.

Right next to the construction site, Richard Puckett said he believes in freedom of religion, but is a bit worried.

“You hear so much right now about the Muslim religion [having] so many different values and beliefs,” he said, quickly adding, “as in every religion,” that he doesn’t know what to expect anymore, from the people of Islamic faith and from his neighbors.

“I just like to live in peace and quiet,” added Puckett who has lived there on and off for 45 years. “As a matter of fact, anything commercial would be upsetting to me.”

THE NEED

It took three years to organize and raise money for the project.

“The Islamic community’s need for a faith-based school, recreational opportunities for the young people and a prayer room prompted the decision to build a central location,” said Issa in a prepared statement.

The community had outgrown a 2,000-square-foot building on Upshaw Drive they have used as a masjid — preferred by Muslims over “mosque” — since the mid-90s.

Islamic Community board member Dr. Arif Shafi said the facility was simply too small for larger celebrations such as Ramadan.

“During Ramadan we have to do it outside and if it rains, [the celebration] gets spoiled,” he said.

ABOUT THE CENTER

The Chattanooga Islamic Center is being built by Dome Technology Inc., an Idaho-based company.

The airform roof will be built from the inside out, using weatherproof material attached to the ring beam footing, then inflated with fans, said Barry Ward, construction superintendent.

The Islamic Center will be “a nice-looking building,” he said Friday at the construction site.

AROUND THE COUNTRY

The debate over the construction of masjids intensified last year when a group proposed building an Islamic center in New York, 600 feet from ground zero.

Opponents denounced it as an insult to the memory of the nearly 3,000 people killed in the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks carried out by Islamic extremists.

In Dalton, Ga., Muslims built their present masjid in 2009, four years after first seeking its permit.

Though there was some opposition in 2005 because of traffic concerns, members of the Islamic Center since have said the community had been very supportive.

When the mosque opened next to Fellowship Bible Church, its pastor welcomed the church’s new neighbors with an ice cream social.

In Nashville, the building of a mosque in an old movie theater complex drew little attention, The Associated Press reported earlier this year.

But in Rutherford County last month, a judge granted a motion that allows 14 new plaintiffs to join a lawsuit seeking to stop construction of an Islamic Center in Murfreesboro.

LOCAL MUSLIM COMMUNITY

Muslims have been in Chattanooga from at least the early 1950s, Issa said, but the numbers increased “dramatically” in the 1970s and 1980s when a number of professionals moved to the area.

Local Muslims come from many places — from Pakistan to Bosnia and include native-born Americans, Issa said. They can worship at mosques on Upshaw Drive, Central Avenue and in East Ridge.

Today, “we have a big number of doctors who work in almost every hospital or have their own practice, from pediatricians to cardiologists,” he said.

The Islamic Society of Greater Chattanooga practices and promotes a “comprehensive, balanced view of Islam,” Issa wrote.

“We strive to embody the ‘middle path’ to which our scriptures call us, a path of moderation, free of extremism and representative of the Islamic vision of a healthy community.”

He said the center has been in communication with some neighboring churches, working at building interfaith relationships.

“We are currently working together on ways to help the people affected by [last] week’s severe weather tragedy,” he said.

about Perla Trevizo...

Perla Trevizo joined the Chattanooga Times Free Press in 2007 and covers immigration/diversity issues and higher education. She holds a master’s degree in newswire journalism from Universidad Rey Juan Carlos in Madrid, Spain, and a bachelor’s degree in political science from the University of Texas. In 2011 she participated in the Bringing Home the World international reporting fellowship program sponsored by the International Center for Journalists, producing a series on Guatemalan immigrants for which she ...

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Well, "they" are letting them build here for the same reason "they" let Christian churches and other religious buildings be built here. Your intolerance smacks of the antisemitism that led up to WWII. Your comments are sickening and anti-American.

May 1, 2011 at 6:42 a.m.
Facts said...

These folks do have every right to build this center. Please note, Christians, that while we live a very diluted faith that serves our lifestyle, those of the Islamic faith are very devout. Translation: They "win" only because Christians are too busy watching American Idol or DWTS. If you want to "blame" anyone for the influx of other religions, look directly at a lazy, complacent church whose Pastors preach to tickle the ears.

May 1, 2011 at 7:45 a.m.
usa2007 said...

I do have to agree that if more Christians would stand up and be as devoted as some of these other people in their religions we would see miraculous things happen that would be a wonderful positive influence!!! BUT I DO NOT want to see this thing pop up here in Chattanooga, why should we allow this?? you think they would passively let us build Christian churches and schools over there in the middle east???? uh nooo!

May 1, 2011 at 7:54 a.m.
slr3 said...

Thanks for your post Facts. I agree with you almost entirely with one exception. The Gospel is a simple message and many preachers do a good job of presenting it to the people sitting in the pews. The people in the pews , however , do not have "ears to hear."

Blaming Muslims for our problems on spiritual matters is closley akin to blaming politicians for the failure of our government. It's not the politicians who are ruining our country , it's the voters who vote for them. Look in the mirror if you have a problem with current events.

May 1, 2011 at 7:56 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

At least it's not a catholic church being put up near a school house.

May 1, 2011 at 8:01 a.m.
nmahan25 said...

Well I have lived in the Chattanooga area for more then 20 years, I converted to Islam about 3 years ago and "them" "those people" whats up with that? I was born here raised here my whole life, just because my religion changed why am I now "those people"? Come on yall, I like it for the simple fact that any one who is worried about "What are those Muslims over there up to?" They can go to the center and find out. Learn about the faith and you will see what its really about. Peace!

May 1, 2011 at 8:50 a.m.
AlmostAmanda said...

BUT I DO NOT want to see this thing pop up here in Chattanooga, why should we allow this?? you think they would passively let us build Christian churches and schools over there in the middle east???? uh nooo!

So you believe Southern Christians should behave like Middle Eastern dictators? Because that shows how much better Christians are than Muslims? Way to hold on to that higher ground.

The people building this center have every right to do so legally and ethically - just as any other religious group has the right to build a community center for those who share their faith. It's a shame that so many people who claim to be Christians are so bigoted. Live your faith and have the basic decency to allow others to do the same.

May 1, 2011 at 8:56 a.m.
chet123 said...

well,,,,the local christain church(not all..thanks GOD for churches like the ABBA HOUSE)have been asleep at the wheels ...many have lost their witnesses power...have sold out to bigotry, corporate and corrupt politians,,,i dont think its too late...but stop playing church...stay with the principle and teaching of CHRIST...not man nor denomination....if they continue on the same path this country convert muslim and other religions...

May 1, 2011 at 9:10 a.m.

The ignorance and prejudice displayed here astound me. It is 2011, not the middle ages.

May 1, 2011 at 9:15 a.m.
una61 said...

An ABBA's House for Muslims. I wonder if it will have a coffee shop and book store?

May 1, 2011 at 9:17 a.m.
chet123 said...

una61..this si serious....make fun all you like to...your grandchildren will be muslim....christian church and organization like 500 clubs(pat robertson)are a joke

May 1, 2011 at 9:23 a.m.
chet123 said...

people see through them...

May 1, 2011 at 9:24 a.m.
rolando said...

And yet -- to paraphrase the Islamic Gospel [or whatever] -- "Submit to Islam or die."

Funny [peculiar] how that isn't in any version of the Christian bible I am aware of...

More than a world of difference there...

But at least the Center is centrally located -- to Sequoyah and Watts Barr...

Maybe it is time to move outside the 5-mile radius...

May 1, 2011 at 9:42 a.m.
nmahan25 said...

@ rolando

Where dose the Qur'an say that? I think this is why a center is good, because things like that have no place in Islam nor any thing to do with it. Read the Qur'an before you quote it. I'm just saying if I was going to talk about a car I wasn't familiar with I'd read about it before I started talking about it.

May 1, 2011 at 9:49 a.m.
rolando said...

SOO said "It is 2011, not the middle ages."

Tell that to the Muslims, SOO...they are the ones living it today.

May 1, 2011 at 9:52 a.m.
rolando said...

"...a faith-based school, recreational opportunities for the young people and a prayer room..."

Why does the thought of that worry me? All those kids learning about and praying/playing at suicide bomber as they do in the ME...

Right here in River City...

May 1, 2011 at 9:56 a.m.
rolando said...

First, nmahan25, I did not quote the Koran [by whatever spelling]...

I am hardly a Muslim rabbi [by whatever more accurate title]. I don't need to jump off a cliff to know the sudden stop will hurt...all I need do is watch what happens when others do it.

So you are saying the Muslim holy books say nothing to the effect of killing those who do not submit? Why are they specifically targeting and killing Christians in the ME, then? And violently suppressing their religion as witnessed by the Easter shootings? Who [and what] did Mohammad himself target and why? What was is battle cry? Is it OK to shout "God is good" when you are killing innocent women and children?

Why do Muslims expect better treatment here than they give to Christians throughout the rest of the world? ["Because it is America" is an unacceptable reply and begs the question.]

Let's drop the "Islam is the religion of peace" BS and treat it as it is in reality.

May 1, 2011 at 10:10 a.m.

The left is fine with Muslim worship whenever, wherever, and to whom they chose. The call it tolerance. I'm okay with it too. So it is my hope the Muslims will want to include their prayers, teachings, and clubs into the Hamilton County schools. Then we can watch the liberals squirm in their intolerance.

May 1, 2011 at 10:39 a.m.
nmahan25 said...

@rolando

Ok lets. In that matter why are some bullets and fire arms have bible verses on them, why when we went to the middle east it was called a "crusade". Like we in the south still know about the civil war they in the middle east still bring up the crusades. Also no the Qur'an dose not. It dose not even refer to Christians and Jews as nonbelievers they are called people of the book. The only warfare told in the Qur'an was of the Muslims fight the pagans of mecca. Never in the Qur'an or the hadith was a Christian ever hurt or mistreated. In fact it says the opposite Surah 3:64 O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but The one God, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside The one God. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). or Surah 2:62 "Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believeth in The one God and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve." If you would have asked Questions like this to the center they like I did will help answer any questions you may have.

May 1, 2011 at 10:42 a.m.
librul said...

So we (the xtian world) have killed Qaddafi's son and three of his grandchildren. Aren't we pure as driven snow! Aren't we good xtians! Don't we mirror jesus when he said we should love our enemies! Aren't we moral and peace-loving! Won't we feel such righteous anger when we're looking at smoldering ruins where Washington or New York or some other of our cities used to be - rank with the stench of millions of scorched bodies, including those of muslims - just as there were muslims in the WTC!

We smugly talk about "removing brutal dictators" and ignore the pictures showing our loudmouth, warmongering xtian politcians shaking hands with them when they were "useful" to our "strategic interests".

Religions are like beautiful flowers whose sap is poisonous. It takes humans to destroy the flowers and distill the sap to use it for evil purposes. These tribal religions have provided us the training and given us the inclination to do so - we will well do without them when they are gone and we have, hopefully, matured to a more humanistic existence.

May 1, 2011 at 10:57 a.m.
Oz said...

Mr. Issa owns the Glen Gene Deli and is involved in many real estate ventures in the Chattanooga area.

May 1, 2011 at 11:36 a.m.
hambone said...

Rolando, I don't think you'll see sny suicide bombers coming out of this center.

Can't find 72 virgins in the Chattanooga area!

May 1, 2011 at 1:18 p.m.
rolando said...

The NATO strike was commanded by a Canadian, librul, and who knows what or if they are anything religious up there or in any of the other countries in NATO including our own [according to theBama] that took part in the missile attack.

Not that that excuses the deliberate strike [atrocity] against Gaddafi's family in his family's house. Brings back bad memories of our last incursion into Libyan airspace. Deliberate attacks targeting civilians have no place in warfare. And never forget who has the con in this country and upon whose watch it occurred.

Incidentally and a triviality, if you find just printing "Christ" so distasteful that you must use "x" to symbolize His title, your usage should not have included the "t". But that is neither here nor there...we all understood what you were saying, I suppose.

May 1, 2011 at 1:56 p.m.
rolando said...

I certainly hope not, hambone. Seriously.

As to your last, I haven't personally verified it but perhaps I owe you a congratulatory handshake... Thanx for the chuckle...I almost got coffee up the nose.

Isn't that possible grounds for a death threat a la NY Times or that Danish[??] cartoonist?

May 1, 2011 at 2:01 p.m.
rolando said...

nmahan25 -- I must respectively disagree with you even though you appear knowledgeable of the religion. But Knowledge lives in an Ivory Tower far removed from everyday happenings.

There are way, way too many atrocities occurring in Muslim countries [and posted throughout the Internet/YouTube] that bear witness to its violent, indiscriminate killing and maiming of others, particularly women and children. [To say nothing of what its adherents did to us 10 years ago.]

They still stone people for God's sake. How barbaric is that?

Not that I particularly give a GD, so long as they keep it away from us and our shores. Particularly its Sharia Law.

May 1, 2011 at 2:11 p.m.
Facts said...

Opposing a religion that teaches hate is not prejudice. In recent days there have been plenty of Christians blasting the Westboro "Baptist Church" for their hate. I have yet to hear from any Muslim stand against the extremists who do believe those who don't believe in Islam are infidels and should be killed. However, these folks have every right under our laws in America to build their center. It's simply a fact that where there's a void, it is filled. We've got churches on almost every block in this city, yet the need for a center that is rooted in teachings of destruction is "needed". Shame on us as Christians. It will be most interesting to see all the politicians wiggle on this one. A few folks have had enough guts to say the truth but folks like Senator Lamar Alexander & Bob Corker don't like "social" issues. I suppose Mayor Ron's real proud of this recruit.

May 1, 2011 at 2:12 p.m.
My2centsworth said...

My only concern (at this time) is what will be taught in their class rooms? I have other concerns but will wait till there is an answer to this first.

May 1, 2011 at 2:16 p.m.
rolando said...

librul --

We aren't downtown or in a shopping area targeting and deliberately blowing up innocent women and children, either...

May 1, 2011 at 2:21 p.m.
AminIssa said...

Hello, everyone!

I'm Amin Issa. Bassam Issa (the director mentioned in the article above) is my father. I'm familiar with the project on Gunbarrel Road, as well as the Islamic community in Chattanooga—including their needs and reasoning.

I've read through the comments that have been posted so far, and I see the concerns that are being laid out. I'm not one to react and provide answers where only statements have been made. For those of you who do have concerns or a curiosity for more information, either about this project specifically or Islam generally, feel free to follow up and ask questions here, and I will do my best to listen and respond.

Full disclosure: I speak in representation of no one and simply wish to ease concerns.

May 1, 2011 at 2:32 p.m.
NoMyth said...

To Christians, Muslims and people of all faiths: If all the money, time and idle chit-chat that is spent on building churches/mosques/temples as well as attending religious services could be re-directed to helping other people, then we would live in a beautiful world. Think about it for one second...or have you been brain-washed since birth and you are no longer able to reason?

May 1, 2011 at 3:07 p.m.
chattanoogan365 said...

Aminissa, I certainly appreciate your attempting to help allay concerns regarding the new Islamic Center and school being built on Gunbarrel road.

May 1, 2011 at 3:07 p.m.
pastorchris said...

As a resident and local pastor of Chattanooga, the construction of the Islamic Center brings to light a couple of important issues: the first being the announcement itself: Why on earth would TimesFree Press make this front page news? When our surrounding region is dealing with not only the loss of life, but the overall magnitude of devastation caused by last week’s events…you would think that the announcement of an Islamic Center would take a back burner!
The option to make this certain subject the topic headline news shows a clear intent of the general editor of the paper. In assumption the editor’s reply would be: this is reporting, and we have covered the storm with wide spread coverage over the past three days.

However, the fact is there is plenty of stories yet to be heard of local heroes giving of themselves for love of others and community…I believe that there would be an overall consensus from the public on that point. The second point would be in regard to the acceptance of the Islamic Center in general. Does our nation support freedom of religion? Yes. That right was established by our founding fathers and we as a nation have blossomed as a result. However, to say that we as Christians should applaud the building of such a center is appalling. Should those who are followers of Christ roll out a red carpet for the proclamation of falsehood? Absolutely not! Should we have an ice cream party and all sing Kumbayah? Surely not. The fact is we as individual Christians and Christian congregations should use this opportunity to recess our hearts in fulfilling the great commission. Having this center being built in our back yards should stir our hearts for proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. Could it be that we living in the greater Chattanooga area have been lulled to sleep with a steeple on nearly every corner? God help us, the church, to awaken. Chris Hayes Senior Pastor, Hickory Valley Baptist Church www.hickoryvalleybaptist.com>

Facts said...

Amen to Pastor Chris!

May 1, 2011 at 3:26 p.m.
chet123 said...

look out PR....dont forget the history of many Christian here in the south...dont pretend christian didnt commit act of violence...and JIM CROWS laws.....

May 1, 2011 at 4:58 p.m.
Julian1 said...

Mr Issa, I too appreciate your coming forward. As I am sure your are aware, there are some ignorant and intolerant opinions expressed in this forum. I would like to believe that such views are fringe opinions here in Chattanooga, and that the Islamic center will be welcomed by all people of goodwill in the region.

May 1, 2011 at 5:02 p.m.
chet123 said...

PASTORCHRIS....i thank the newsfreepress is doing the right thing...glad they not killing stories....i beleive you my sir is a devout man....however , the church are run and influence through their conventions and big money donors...where certain ideology leaking in the establisment church...it poison your water...politician in your congregation who cover themselves with everything but brotherly love.....most churches have become a country club....no holy spirit...and it is impossible to have a CHurch without the annointing of GOD spirit....if the Church was truly carrying out GOD mission...it would not be on the defends...because noone could deter the church or stop the church...GOD said the gate of hell will not prevail....so why are so call christian on the defense..hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

May 1, 2011 at 5:10 p.m.
dl said...

A lot of the posts above remind me that Hitler wanted to kill people of the Jewish faith who had done nothing wrong. Christians have killed 10's of millions of innocent people over time. Remember the now peaceful Japanese killed 20 million Chinese in WWII. Having lived there they generally are non-religious even today. I would propose we all just strive to love people of all backgrounds, colors, religions, etc. Do the best you can anyway - that's all God wants from us. Love your neighbor as yourself.

May 1, 2011 at 5:41 p.m.
esaletnik said...

Stay classy Chattanooga, or CNN will be down here in a heartbeat to ream us a new one like they did in Murfreesboro. After they were done with them they had the rest of the nation believing that they were the biggest bunch of back woods yokels ever.

Click here for CNN video

May 1, 2011 at 5:44 p.m.
Horus said...

I'd like to take a moment to introduce myself. My name is Horus I was born approximately 3000bc. I was born of a virgin on December 25th. My birth was foretold by a star in the east and upon my birth was adorned by 3 kings. I was baptized, had 12 disciples was a teacher and began my ministry at 30. I performed miracles such as curing the sick. I was betrayed by typhoon and crucified. I died and remained dead for 3 days before rising once more. My enemy is set and my name is Horus. If my story sounds familiar it is because you Christians have adopted the original beliefs from my original followers, the Egyptians. There is a book of the dead with 42 "commandments" ten of which I believe you are aware of. My divine birth is pictured in hieroglyphs and can be found online as well as my book of the dead. I urge you all to look deeper into your beliefs and realize that all religions are used as tools to control the people and to divide and conquer you. Religion has never done anything good for the world as a whole. People need to realize that the story of Christ is simply my story retold and MY story, is a personification of the sun. Man did not come from dirt and sticks. Your intolerance of one another is your downfall and your government laughs at you. They want you to hate Muslims, they want you to fear the.. How else would they have been able to implement to patriot acts and other such means of destroying your civil liberties. Do you realize that your country is on the verge of bankruptcy? By 2050 almost 80% of all tax revenue will go to entitlements and that by 2085 every single dollar America earns will go to them? You preach hate to one another and your leaders take advantage of you. One day you will wake up on the continent your fathers conquered and you'll have nothing. Youll have noone to blame but yourselves for handing over your country just as the Germans did. How concerned are you about the north American union? Pay attention to what matters, your country is being stripped from you.

May 1, 2011 at 6:20 p.m.
GMan99 said...

Katrina, Tsunamis, Nuclear meltdowns, Arab world uprising, Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq. Move on from 9/11 already. USA already made clear: We wont catch Osama.

May 1, 2011 at 6:27 p.m.
rockyswife said...

Amazing that this was published on a day that most of the news would be about the tornadoes in the areas. Think they are hoping you won't read this? The Plan the Muslims have is to move into college/university cities/towns, indoctrinate students, hire Muslim professors; and Chattanooga has plenty of schools to accomplish this goal. Please educate yourselves as to what the real goal is....and the only peace they want is the peace of knowing everyone is a Muslim.

May 1, 2011 at 6:56 p.m.
Horus said...

Rocky, where can I find this information? Also, do you work for the via as a disinformation agent?

May 1, 2011 at 7:08 p.m.
sangaree said...

What are "christians" so afraid of? That people will realize they are fake and hijacked the religion from TRUE CHRISTIANS centuries ago? Then proceeded to preach fear, hatred, bigotry, intolerance, racism and a host of other wrongs all in the name of God? Even God wouldn't recognize and would denounce these fakes who run to the Old Testament when they want to justify war, invading and occupying countries for their natural resources. Then run to the New Testament when they want to claim the Christian religion is a religion of peace and compassion.

It will be so refreshing when TRUE CHRISTIANS take a stand and reclaim the religion from these imposters. The same goes for today's Republican Party. It will be so refreshing when true Republicans take a stand and kick these GOP imposters, invaders, occupiers out of the party. Both are destroying Christianity and this nation.

May 1, 2011 at 7:53 p.m.
Julian1 said...

esaletnik, you raise an important point. How Chattanoogans handle this issue may well help decide how we are viewed by the rest of the country and the world--as either a thriving 21st century city filled with welcoming people, an epitome of the "New South," or a throwback to the Jim-Crow era of fear, division, and intolerance, a disturbing reminder of the persistence of the "Old South" and a reason why outside businesses and people might want to think first before investing their capital and skills here.

rockyswife, please tell us that your post about The Plan" of Muslims to infiltrate university towns, indoctrinate students, etc., is actually a parody of conspiracy-theory views.

May 1, 2011 at 8:55 p.m.
rolando said...

The issue here is not Christian tolerance -- it is Muslim intolerance.

It is quite well established throughout our culture and history that any and all religions -- or no religion at all -- are allowed here -- so long as they obey our laws. Islam may have a bit of a problem doing that.

And therein lies the true crux of the issue -- the Muslims will, as slowly and as surely as a snake [or the proverbial camel] will enter a tent, insist on imposing Sharia law first within its own mosques and then within other areas under its purview -- in direct violation of our Constitution which states that it is the highest law in the land. Period.

When the Muslims begin recognizing the right of Christians, Jews, et al to exist in peace worldwide -- or even make a sincere effort -- they will begin to enter the 20th and 21st centuries. Until then, they will always be looked upon with a rather jaundiced eye.

May 1, 2011 at 8:58 p.m.
Julian1 said...

Rolando-- People all over the world laud our traditions of openness and tolerance in America. Generally favorable world opinion is part of what makes us a superpower and allows us to underwrite the international order.

Local business opinion, of course, should and would regret if our region, an aspiring node in the 21st-century economy, become labeled as backward and unwelcoming in the international news and papers. A reputation for intolerance is bad for business and jobs. Let's keep the economy of Chattanooga growing, bringing prosperity to our citizens, by showing the national and international business community that we are an open, welcoming city where people would want to live and invest.

May 1, 2011 at 9:46 p.m.
Lefty said...

Based on what I have read here, I only hope that the Muslims are here to indoctrinate our area with proper spelling and grammar. It is uncanny how many of the unwashed masses give themselves away before they ever make their point.

It's not hard to imagine how easy it is to pull people away from Christianity when you look at the image that the church has created in this community. The weak-minded sheep that have been spewing their venom on here all day can't seem to figure out why they aren't winning any converts with a steady stream of hate and ignorance.

May 1, 2011 at 9:48 p.m.
chet123 said...

Darn Rolando....can you get alone with anyone....you always looking for a boogey man.....the bible said if the salt looses it tatse it is good for nothing but to be trodden on...as a Christian let Christ direct you..dont talk the talk but walk the walk...the world see you being hateful...depressing the weak,greedy...leting corporate influence your church...tap dancing around the teaching of Christ...not teaching the most important commandment love GOD and love one another...even those who are different from you...but..noooooooooo...not the haters...hate the muslim,black,mexican,jews,native american,chinese,yankee,democrat,liberal,moderates,ect...on and on..

May 1, 2011 at 10:07 p.m.
chattanoogan365 said...

Reading all these comments one cannot imagine how ignorant some people are.Jesus preached love and tolerance and that is what made Him great and inspired billions to embrace his message of hope. I have not come across one Muslim who does not respect Jesus.

Instead of spreading innuendos such as Muslims trying to impose Sharia law (pretty much like Obama being a Muslim born in Kenya) we should perhaps try to understand what the building of this Center will mean for future generations of Muslims.

If the center provides education in a healthy environment then this is a big plus for the community.

Lets try to get our facts right before we voice our opinion.

Remember knowledge is power!!

May 1, 2011 at 10:11 p.m.

This article was VERY well written, but the comments here by the very ones set against it seem to be spouting "Christian" beliefs with no Biblical standing, as well as Un-American! ALL of you claiming to be Christian & have ALREADY spoken such UnGodly-blatantly against what Jesus Himself taught, Judgemental, rediculousness, it's obvious how totally ignorant to the true Faith/Beliefs of Islam & ALL the different "sects" just like we (Yes, like it or not, I AM A CHRISTIAN who believes in my God who I, as ANY American, have the right to) have All the different Denominations of Christianity. DO ANY OF YOU BASHING OR POINTING YOUR TURNED UP NOSES AT "THOSE PEOPLE" KNOW HOW MANY CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE IN OTHER COUNTRIES? HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE ACCEPTANCE OR NON ACCEPTANCE OF THAT? WHAT MAKES YOU ANY DIFFERENT THAN "THOSE PEOPLE"? DO YOU THINK YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM? DO YOU THINK YOU ARE THE ONLY RIGHT RELIGION? DO YOU KNOW THE HISTORY OF EVEN CHRISTIANITY IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY? DIDN'T CHRISTIANS KILL INNOCENT WOMEN, CHILDREN & MEN WHILE TAKING THEIR OWN LAND? IF YOU TRUELY THINK ABOUT YOUR ANSWERS & ARE TRUELY HONEST WITH YOURSELF & YOUR GOD, MAYBE YOU COULD BETTER SEE WHERE YOU MAY BE IN ERROR. HOW DARE CHRISTIANS TRY TO EVEN CONVERT ANYONE OF ANY RELIGION TO CHRISTIANITY IF AT THE SAME TIME ARE AS ARROGANT, SELF RIGHTEOUS & EVEN ACT/TALK IN A NON-HUMANE WAY, HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDE! YOU ARE NOT GODS! NOT ANY MORE THAN I OR "THOSE PEOPLE"! DON'T YOU THINK IT'S NOTHING BUT HATE TALK THAT YOU SPEAK THE THINGS AGAINST OTHER RELIGIONS? DIDN'T JESUS SAY TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR, THAT THIS COMMANDMENT IS AS GREAT AS THE 1ST? MAYBE YOU CAN RE-READ MATT 22:37-39? Do you or don't you live in the land of the FREE??? Are you the ONLY ones that should have any access to that Freedom? I don't think so! Did you know that, OH NO WATCH OUT, but there are ISLAMICS EVEN IN THE US MILITARY WHO FIGHT FOR YOUR VERY FREEDOM AS WELL AS THEIR OWN IN THIS COUNTRY? You should be ashamed! You are the kinds of "Christians" that make it EXTREMELY difficult & sometimes even impossible to bring people to the God of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE & SALVATION! I pray the God of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, MERCY, GRACE, FORGIVENESS, SALVATION help you see the error of your ways, THEN maybe you can better serve your God, your Country you claim to love & even above yourself- serve your neighbor! DO YOU NOT BELIEVE IN A POWERFUL ENOUGH GOD THAT HAS ALL POWER HE NEEDS WITHOUT YOUR HELP? WOULDN'T HE SAVE US FROM OUR ENEMIES IF HE SAYS SO? SO IS IT THAT YOU ARE AFRAID? SCARED OF THE UNKNOWN? OR ARE YOU JUST TAKING WHAT YOU PROBABLY HAVE READ ONLINE OR HEARD FROM YOUR PULPIT ABOUT THE QURAN AS ALL TRUTH FOR ALL ISLAMICS?

May 1, 2011 at 10:52 p.m.

ROLANDO... You make some VERY "religious" comments yourself! Actually your comments are only showing your complete ignorance to truth & fearfulness for yourself. You know what? IF it is a move on the Muslum community's part to come to America & TAKE OVER, how would they do that without becoming a LEGAL AMERICAN? IF THEY ARE TRUE RADICAL ISLAMICS, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT SO MANY WOULD COME HERE & VERTUALLY DENOUNCE THEIR OWN COUNTRY/RADICAL LAWS? Is it your belief or fear that not ALL Americans or people in this country are subject to the laws of our land? What makes you think they would put themselves in such a position? Rediculous! The extremists love their country, try to take land attached to it, kill their own people..., why would they bother with us? Aren't we the most powerful Nation? Not only others, but I as well, have done research ON THE FAITH, & NO, THEY ARE NOT OUT TO KILL ALL AMERICANS! REMEMBER, THERE ARE SECTS! THE SECTS YOU ARE MORE THAN LIKELY AFRAID OF ARE IN THE MIDDLE EAST! OH, THATS THE MIDDLE EAST WHERE OUR U.S. TROOPS ARE EVERY DAY OFFERING THEIR LIVES FOR FREEDOM AS WELL AS EVEN LOVING ON "THOSE PEOPLE"! GOD BLESS THE MUSLIMS, CATHOLICS, METHODIST, CHURCH OF CHRIST, BAPTIST, PRESBYTERIAN, HINDU... WITH HIS LOVE & SET US ALL FREE FROM OURSELVES & EACH OTHER-WE ARE OUR GREATEST ENEMIES!

May 1, 2011 at 10:54 p.m.
equersquill said...

It was beautiful Saturday to be part of a joint effort between the Muslim community and Christian community helping our fellow citizens in Apison whose lives have been torn apart by the tornado. If we could only be blind to a biased feeling, emotion or limited knowledge of people's ethnic origin or religion and get to know them we would recognize the humanity of all of us.

This has been my experience here in Chattanooga with my Muslim friends. To visit, eat, pray, talk, help others in need and journey into each other's lives in an incredible experience.

Yesterday as we Christians and Muslims were together helping people whose lives torn apart by the tornado we learned their story and entered into their lives. All of us experienced what it means to be citizens here in Chattanooga...to love each other as equals.

May 1, 2011 at 11:08 p.m.
chet123 said...

gman99 you are wrong again....LIN LADEN DEAD!! GMAN...your batting average is .00%.....you must be a republican..no credibily!!!! Just keep protecting the rich and greedy...thats all you good for and the majority of people know this...keep looking for the boogey man....if you look in the mirror you may find him

May 2, 2011 at 12:48 a.m.
rolando said...

Sure, unconditional, attack and kill the messenger, why don't you? Islam sure does. Witness the NY Times deciding not to print something putting Islam in a bad light after its top people received credible death threats against them and their families.

For the other sheeple here: Those 3rd world Muslims sure are peace-loving...that's why they blow up so many innocents and dissidents...to keep the peace. More like living-in-fear-of-their-religion Muslims.

Look around the world for evidence of what happens when Islamic sharia law is allowed to exist. We have evidence of it happening here: men "honor" killing their daughters because they refuse to submit to Islamic teachings, for instance... Mere exceptions, perhaps, but evidence of what happens when "the camel's nose..." is allowed to enter the tent.

All the platitudes and pablum, tears and gnashing of teeth, will not erase an iota of that evidence and that reality. "The truth shall make you free..."

Islam is not a peace-loving religion. It is based on one precept and one precept alone: total and complete submission to the will of God and His prophet Muhammad [as passed down to its adherents by His religious leaders here on Earth, of course]. To refuse to submit is to court death. In Muslim countries, there is no separation of religion and state; the religion IS the state.

Finally, to repeat and in closing, this issue is NOT about Christianity or any other religion but Islam. Try to stick with that thought. If you have personal difficulties/problems with Christianity, save it for another, more appropriate, thread.

May 2, 2011 at 7:42 a.m.
rolando said...

equarsquill -- Good thoughts for our consideration.

It is individuals gathering together to accomplish a non-violent common effort that makes us truly human. This is America, after all, and we as a people do things that way here. We are, by far, the most giving people on Earth; we must not allow any religion to change that.

Unfortunately, it is not the individuals who want to change us but the so-called "leaders", one small step at a time.

May 2, 2011 at 7:52 a.m.
chet123 said...

This is directed to ROLANDO and LIBERTARAIN4F...why are you so blind to this country history...600,000 young men died in a civil war of the United States...and many others after the war that was undocumented....you two BOZO invest too much time creating boogeyman...why are you so paranoid....Be careful you two...its an old saying...that which a man dispises, he becomes...your off spring will become muslims...so be careful with your hate and lies...your children will rebel against you..you indict yourselves lol lol

May 2, 2011 at 11:03 a.m.
chet123 said...

LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM...the church on 16thstreet in Birmingham ala. was bomb by haters like you 4 little girls died...i moved on...look at yourself in the mirror...or are you afraid what you may see(boogeyman)

May 2, 2011 at 2:05 p.m.
chet123 said...

l4f...you have poison your whole system....i would hate to be you.....you dont have a life...theres no romance in your life...you have too much hate...you couldnt perform if you wanted to with a female....you are sad bro!

May 2, 2011 at 2:09 p.m.
chet123 said...

you and seamonkey are the same person....noone is that crazy but you two...you are the biggest argument in favor of GUN CONTROL! walking time bomb!! you are disturb in the head

May 2, 2011 at 2:12 p.m.
dcob51 said...

Hell we have given the rest of our country away why not gunbarrel too.!!!!

May 2, 2011 at 2:17 p.m.
dave said...

Just remember you can judge a tree by it's fruit. I do not think anything good will come of this center being built except to stir strife.

May 2, 2011 at 5:57 p.m.
chattanoogan365 said...

Luke 9:52-56: "...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."

May 2, 2011 at 8:15 p.m.
chet123 said...

keep talking libertarian...your daughters will marry a muslim...keep talking..LOL LOL LOL..you become what you despise

May 2, 2011 at 9:12 p.m.
chet123 said...

dcob51 what do you mean we, we ,we if you are a republican you are trying to give it away...because if you are protecting and rich and greedy to control everything in this country thru privatization..then you have destroy democracy...and given America an Oligarchy(a small ruling class)government....stop being stupid...open your eyes man

May 2, 2011 at 9:24 p.m.
chet123 said...

dont be like libertarian...he's too far gone to help

May 2, 2011 at 9:26 p.m.
chet123 said...

dcob51..stop the "floyd barber shop" talk and read history...not these "nut case web site"(the boogeyman coming to get you) crack a book open ...make it simple and read an encyclopedia for starter.

May 2, 2011 at 9:30 p.m.
rolando said...

chattogan--

Obviously [for several reasons] that unnamed village was not Muslim...if it had been, Jesus, James, John and the rest would have been stoned on the spot as infidels. But that is the difference between what Jesus taught and what the later dude did.

May 2, 2011 at 10:38 p.m.
chattanoogan365 said...

Rolando, I dont think you are getting the point here. We could look at other versus of the bible for the same message. Should we? Is there any doubt of the message that Jesus preached?

May 3, 2011 at 6:54 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

You guys talk as if these are citizens of other countries. As far as I know, this center is being built by American Citizens, exercising their right to worship as stated in the constitution. It would not matter if they were of Greek origin and building a Greek Orthodox church, of Japanese origin building a Shinto shrine, of German origin building a Lutheran church. If we lose the freedoms under the constitution, we are no better than any third world dictatorship. The constitution supersedes any religious laws, including sharia.

Those posting here are showing both ignorance of world religions and ignorance of the laws and constitution of their own country. Our constitution protects us from takeover by Muslims just as it protects us from Biblical Law. (thank dog)

May 3, 2011 at 7:44 a.m.
rolando said...

There is no doubt whatsoever, chattogan. His message was about peace and brotherhood [willing, not forced]. To shake the dust from your feet and depart in peace, as it were. And that I believe was your message also...that and we should emulate Him as best we can.

It is a pity Muslims worldwide refuse to do the same and show us equal tolerance for what we afford them. And that is my message, in case you missed it.

The only real solution to their "problem" is apparently what we delivered to Bin Laden...it is the only answer they will ever accept, unwilling as it may be.

BTW, you do realize I am addressing Islam as a whole, don't you? The whole represented by their "works" worldwide? That is the Islam we do not want in this country...not even the first hair on that camel's nose.

Show tolerance; obey OUR laws, not theirs; adopt OUR culture and mores, not theirs [that's why they are here, right?] -- that is the key to their success here in the US.

May 3, 2011 at 7:51 a.m.
rolando said...

This goes far beyond the local issue posited by this article, lkeith, as you should well know.

There is no meaningful opposition to the mosque being built here. Quite the opposite. Please don't turn our words into something they aren't.

The question is, will it teach American ideals and concepts to their children or something foreign to our culture... the propriety of female circumcision, total subjugation of the female, stoning, "honor" killings, forced marriage, and all the other things anathema to Americans insofar as equal rights go.

Don't depend on our Constitution to protect us from anything anymore. The Progressives have seen to its destruction...haven't you been paying attention to the unconstitutional usurpation of power in Wash? It is rampant and has been getting worse for a decade and more.

In closing -- I love it...you can thank God [in a backhanded sort of way] but cannot say His title! Thanks, lkeithlu...thanks for the chuckle.

May 3, 2011 at 8:06 a.m.
rolando said...

BTW, lkeithlu, have you seen this one:

http://nation.foxnews.com/justice/2011/03/22/judge-orders-use-sharia-law-florida

Won't happen here, huh? It already has...

May 3, 2011 at 8:08 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"the propriety of female circumcision, total subjugation of the female, stoning, "honor" killings, forced marriage"

These are illegal in the US, rolando, and no one is saying that the majority of muslims in the US want these things.

One case in FL does not a national trend make.

Our constitution is intact, no matter what conspiracy nuts think.

Oh, and I was not thanking a god, as I don't believe in any god. Dogs, on the other hand, I believe in 100%.

May 3, 2011 at 8:12 a.m.
rolando said...

Then there is this one [and many others]:

http://www.ldjackson.net/news-politics/sharia-law-in-florida/

May 3, 2011 at 8:14 a.m.
rolando said...

Yet the form you used was the "Thank God" format...deliberately, I presume.

Google the "sharia law" thing, lkeithlu...there is far more than one issue. The number is immaterial -- one case is all it takes to establish legal precedent...and that case stands [so far].

Try this one for the full article -- it is an eye-opener [if you aren't blinded] and is only a couple weeks old:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/civil/article1158818.ece

May 3, 2011 at 8:22 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Nothing you have posted justifies denying Muslim-Americans of their rights to worship or to build a center, rolando. And, no, L4F, muslims would have no more right to ban pork from public schools than Christians do to demand that the bible be read. They are under the same laws as everyone else. That doesn't stop them from expressing those demands, but they do not have to be accommodated.

sorry, rolando, theists don't have a monopoly on thanking anyone. I can thank Mother Earth, Zeus, Hera, or the FSM if I choose. Free country, ya know.

May 3, 2011 at 9:11 a.m.
chet123 said...

Rolando and libertarian....you two are laughable....you talk on a "second grade level" what bin laden have to do with muslim right...did you know most serial killer in the U.S. profess to be Christian,in all religion you have zealots and those who are delusional...should your head be deliver because of serial killer are mostly of christain faith(eventhough they dont live it) ??? i see a commonality with you and BIN LADEN..you both are haters.. also the word "political correct" was used...i notice republican use that word when they cant think of another lie to tell.....political correct(republican lingo lol lol) i'm Christian Faith...and i know the teaching of christ is not that of hate nor to become combatin against other faith..he illustrated that many times...one example Peter drawing his sword,,christ refute peter..but i dont think that mean anything to you because you are a one track thinker. It sad but you are not able to see the whole picture...only little snap shots LOL LOL.. Next times you two BOZOs attend a college graduation please take note...and i mean big time School...see top graduates the "maga cum laude" and try to pronouce their last name..lol lol...your top engineers, oh yeah...go to erlanger or parkridge or memorial hospital...and try to pronounce the Doctor names... they wont be jones and smith lol lol...and i"m not just talking about general practitioners...but the great surgeons and specialists....Muslim have made great contributions to this country(you see man with bomb LOL LOL) you are delusional,,chances are at some time of your life..you will be at the mercy of someone who last name you cant pronounce(and i like to be a fly on the wall lol lol to see your face lol lol)..stop looking for a boogeyman...you look stupid man!!

May 3, 2011 at 9:51 a.m.
XGSBoss said...

As an atheist, I welcome an Islamic center. I can only imagine how nice a center of refuge would be in this sea of "Christian" hate we live in.

May 3, 2011 at 10 a.m.
chet123 said...

Why cant the Christian in this area see how they look to many others...cant they look in the mirror at themselves....CHRIST would be ashame of them...for using his name with their hate and greediness..

May 3, 2011 at 10:05 a.m.
chet123 said...

thanks GOD for Christain churches like ABBA HOUSE and a few others...but the majority in the south christ would be ashame of...SHAME,SHAME,SHAME on you! hate, division,greed,bigotry

May 3, 2011 at 10:11 a.m.
chet123 said...

and they trust to critizied muslim faith..lol lol...bible say dont look at speck in someone eye when you have a log in your own eye

May 3, 2011 at 10:16 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Terry Jones had the right to burn the Koran, and he exercised that right. In Dallas, a man sought to do an honor killing. That's a crime and will be treated as such. Providing facilities for religious activities is done by all universities. So what's your point? Stories from other countries such as Pakistan and Italy are meaningless. These are American Muslims. Your extreme bigotry is obvious and appears to have no bounds.

May 3, 2011 at 10:46 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"Really? So it would be ok if white students demanded white hour at the swimming pool? Or if fat people demanded fat hour at the beach?" What a stupid argument. These are not religious requests.

May 3, 2011 at 11:16 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

They actually have the right in public universities to have spaces or facilities for their religious activities. In fact, public universities must provide for all religions. Most universities have a chapel that can serve as a temple and as mosque. Facilities can offer hours where the sexes are segregated. The entire schedule cannot be changed to accommodate one religious group. Dorms can be designated substance free for those for many reasons, including religion, can live. Dorms can also be segregated by gender for the same reason.

There are no religions that can discriminate by race or weight and still adhere to the constitution. And AFAIK, groups cannot exclude others. A gay rights group cannot exclude straight folks, unless the straight folks come only to disrupt the gatherings. A muslim group cannot exclude those of another faith as long as the attendants are respectful and participate fully.

I think it really gets your goat that the constitution protects everyone, including those that don't look and think like you.

May 3, 2011 at 11:53 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

" Oh, I said monkey because that's your avatar. It had nothing to do with race."

Garbage-you are such a liar. My avatar is not a monkey anyway, but you are clearly a racist.

May 3, 2011 at 12:30 p.m.
chet123 said...

libertarian4freedom...it doesnt say much about the college you graduated and not have ability to argue your point with validity is very sad..it is said "fears have no basis in facts"... bet i know which college you graduated from...in three guesses i could nail it,,,so dont beat on your chest too much! This area is not the cradle of high learning....you are a living testiment to that...for someone to be educated and cant make a valid argument is a tragic...really a discredit to the college you graduated from....for someone who proclaim to be well read and studied...you can not bring one vaid point on issues without inconsistencies and plagiarizing from haters groups.you say you read books..so! you can say the same thing and be reading PLAYBOYLOL LOL LOL..you may want to find reputable sources....in fact that may be your problem...you will never be respected with "PSEUDO" intellect....yeah i see your material...much of haters on different web site....any lie can be told,ie OBAMA is Muslim, terorist,socialist ect,,, you are a ignorant man....probably a product of one of these southern baptist college...think you have made it big time..lol lol...i'm willing to bet that you are a generation or two from overall wearing chicken farmers. do yourself a favor ask your college for a refund. oh yeah...heres something for you to prove you are an idioit.

BTK serial killer from kansas..was a proclaim Christian;prsident of church council. Know you wouldnt know this guy: JIM JONES...killed thousands he was a nut like you knew everything LOL LOL

Ed Gein..very religous...killed many

Mesac Damas,,,christian nut-case kill family

Christian try to deny it ..but ALDOF HITLER profess to be a Christian....his writing gives testemony that he was I can go on for hours...

May 3, 2011 at 1:08 p.m.
chet123 said...

libertarian..you can oppose who you want ..this is America...and they can too!whats your point man!..you dont make sense for an "avid reader"

May 3, 2011 at 1:19 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"Pol Pot, atheist, killed 4 million. Stalin, atheist, killed 25 million. Fidel Castro, atheists, has killed thousands. As for Ed Gein, he wasn't religious, what are you talking about? Oh, and if Adolph Hitler was such a Christian how come he replaced the cross with images of himself in public schools? Yeah, because that's what Christians do, worship themselves and make others take loyalty oaths to them instead of God."

Hitler was a Christian, Stalin went to seminary, Pol Pot, well, eastern religions are not always theistic, but some are.

"---Not SWIMMING POOLS or FITNESS CENTERS. Those belong to EVERYONE, you can't restrict them in any way."

Wrong. University facilities often have hours for lessons, team practice, families, adults only, ladies only. They can manage their hours any way they want.

"---Religions don't have to adhere to the constitution, dummy, in fact, the constitution says NOTHING about who you can't discriminate against. The constitution only mentions what the government can't do to you. That's why FDR invented those ridiculous four freedoms (freedom from want, etc)."

Uh, actually, they do. Secular Law supersedes religious law. If the bible says to beat your children, you can be arrested for child abuse. If your religious tradition says to marry a 14 year old, you still go to jail for child rape. Religions may not violate peoples' constitutional rights, nor can they violate local, state or federal laws.

---In most places they can, in fact, in most places people want to hang out with their own kind, so if I set up a meeting for hunters I can choose to exclude vegetarian. The only exception are PUBLIC PLACES.

Duh- a public university is, well, public. A public university can ban a group that tries to exclude anyone. The whole point is to be open for others to come and learn. Of course, if someone comes only to disrupt, they can be excluded. That is also true for classes.

May 3, 2011 at 3:23 p.m.
chet123 said...

libertarian..if you are going to rebuttal make a case...pol pot is not a religion instituion..never claim to be a good guy...libertarian..what are you talking about?...as for ed gein...he was a profess christian had delusion as david kerish did...hitler was a profess christian...whether you like it or not,didnt say his action was christ-like as some of our profess christian today...action is contrary to christ teaching....that my point .. dont get confuse on me ...a label and action are two different things

May 3, 2011 at 3:49 p.m.
chet123 said...

libertarian(eventhough you are republican--shame to admit)...the bible say the tree is known by its fruits...you cant label you are one thing then your action is contrary...

May 3, 2011 at 3:51 p.m.
chet123 said...

you talking about legalism...new testimony stays away from that...you will find a lot of legalism in the old testament

May 3, 2011 at 3:56 p.m.
chet123 said...

new testament is not strongly against alcohol...theme of new testament is GOD grace and love....

May 3, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.
chet123 said...

LIBERTARIAN...Christ did not allow them to draw him into a fight with government...even on tax issues...he said give to caesar that which is caesar,,,

May 3, 2011 at 4:02 p.m.
chet123 said...

all of your point have holes..they dont hold water....what church you go to that teaches like that...please tell me...i will pay your pastor a visit...

May 3, 2011 at 4:09 p.m.

dl, appreciate your views about loving our neighbors however I don't recall any Jews blowing up buildings in OUR country. Comparing to Hitler is weak at best.

Considering the fact that Bin Laden is no longer with us as well as recovery from the storms last week, am guessing some of us are emotionally sensitive/exhausted. Know I am. Don't feel the timing is just right to fully absorb an Islam center in the Bible belt.

Neighbor Gayle O'Brien claims it's ok to build the center across the street from where she lives but not ok near Ground Zero....help me understand her thinking. I feel every inch of land in this country is sacred.

May 3, 2011 at 8:01 p.m.
rolando said...

lkeithlu said:

"Nothing you have posted justifies denying Muslim-Americans of their rights to worship or to build a center, rolando."

Once again you make up words and phrases that imply, or you flat-out claim, that others here said something about denying Americans the right to worship when and wherever they please in this country, lkeithlu. Unless they are Christians, of course...they are open season year 'round.

You do that a lot and is actually called lying -- matter of fact it has become a habit with you.

Your careful wording is worthy of theBama; it does not, however, give you plausible denyability of what your meaning definitely was, squirm as you may.

May 3, 2011 at 8:36 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

rolando, are you defending the posts of L4F? They make it clear exactly what I am saying: that muslims are not due the same rights as other americans.

May 3, 2011 at 8:55 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"Unless they are Christians, of course...they are open season year 'round."

I challenge you to produce evidence that I say Christians should be denied their right to worship freely.

May 3, 2011 at 9:45 p.m.
Humphrey said...

backwards, embarrassing, idiots.

May 4, 2011 at 6:45 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"I'm not denying Muslims of their rights, I'm simply saying I do not welcome them or their culture. Stop being so politically correct!"

Then it is a good thing that you don't get to choose who lives in the US and who doesn't. Some of these folks may have been here all their lives, and are just as American as you.

May 4, 2011 at 9:42 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your post is so filled with hate and ignorance, I am not even going to address its content.

May 4, 2011 at 10:27 a.m.

Tribalism is what is wrong. It's a variation of moralism. It pervades many cultures, religions, and political parties.

It entered western Christianity via European paganism. It entered America via European secular imperialism. It was at its ugliest in post-Christian European totalitarianism.

Other religions and cultures can explain their own versions of tribalism. This is simply how the west perverted the world's most pluralistic religion with tribalism.

May 4, 2011 at 11:28 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I am not denying that it's true: You hate and fear anyone who is not white, conservative, straight and christian. That's pretty clear. There is nothing else to say.

May 4, 2011 at 12:12 p.m.
klugermann said...

Thomas Jefferson said, "I never will, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others."

Peter 3:8-11 says: "Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind. Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing. For Whoever desires to love life and see good days, let him keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit; let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it."

The intolerance displayed here by those who call themselves "American" and "Christian" is a sad spectacle.

May 4, 2011 at 1 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Sorry, L4F. You have made it clear in your many posts that you hate and fear all those that are not LIKE YOU. That includes us liberals, in spite of the fact that as a liberal I don't give a rat's patootie what you eat, wear, smoke or think. However, if you come on this forum and stereotype, lie or express hate I will point it out, while at the same time acknowledging your right to say it. Words have consequences, however small. The consequence of your words is that you have been revealed as a bigot, a racist, and relatively ignorant of the world and its variety of people. Suits me just fine.

May 4, 2011 at 1:55 p.m.

Islam is a religion that places man at the doorstep of Allah.

May 4, 2011 at 2:32 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Did I say that liberals don't stereotype or express hate? I didn't. I said that YOU stereotype and express hate.

May 4, 2011 at 2:54 p.m.

lkeeithlu.......lol....nothing like a good olde cat fight to get your day started stomping on a poor troll like Libertarians4Freedom.

May 4, 2011 at 3:07 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You are not improving your image, L4F. (of course, that may not be your intention)

May 4, 2011 at 3:57 p.m.
chet123 said...

Remember what i said LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM...your children will be muslim LOL LOL

May 4, 2011 at 6:06 p.m.
rolando said...

With lkeithlu, it is never about what she said but always about what you said. She is always in attack mode...

May 6, 2011 at 8:22 a.m.
chet123 said...

PROFESSOR LIBERTARIAN4FREEDOM(DONT BE ASHAME TO BE A REPUBLICAN)i know you have all wisdom...you say that they convert black in prison, i know you dont realize how you have dedicted the southern baptist Christian by saying that(it better to remain silence and be though of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubts) LOL LOL LOL LOL thats the mission of Christ to not leave anyone behind(boy you are stupid)that is part of the GREAT COMMISSION ...how dumb can you be....i know you have to get your information from right-wing bloggers(propaganda)or FOX,RUSH LIMBAUGH,SEAN HANNITY,GLENN BECK AND the rest of those boot lickers(they are scripted from rich and greedy who give info to your think tanks ie american thinker,heritage ect.. to give propaganda material to little foot soldier as you well orchestrated) but learn to use that hat rack on your head...study history...from neutral sources...so you wont look so stupid....you are pseudo intellect lol lol lol and as far as members goes maybe you are unaware ISLAM have member blue eyes and blonde hair too....the next attack is feared to be carried off with a radical member of those features....do yourself a favor....go back to the college you graduated from and request a refund of your money.....i'm getting tired of eating your lunch..BRO! lol lol lol

May 6, 2011 at 8:23 a.m.
chet123 said...

hey Rolando...dont run off

May 6, 2011 at 8:33 a.m.
chet123 said...

you two may want to check with your propaganda machine...and make a call to FOX LOL LOL

May 6, 2011 at 8:37 a.m.
chet123 said...

nice to know you two men have to console and comfort each other from a woman LOL LOL LOL....republican men LOL LOL is that why you need reagan in a COWBOY COSTUME...LOL LOL...TO MASK YOU WEAKNESS....

May 6, 2011 at 8:43 a.m.
chet123 said...

Folks they've taken off running scared again....LOL LOL..they looking for someone you can feed lies to....from right wings bloggers and haters network....cant think on their own

May 6, 2011 at 8:45 a.m.
chet123 said...

Have anybody seen Rolando and LIBERTARIAN ???

May 6, 2011 at 9:02 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Again a stupid stereotype. Most liberals I know have guns, L4F.

May 6, 2011 at 10:02 a.m.
rolando said...

Most liberals I know and read about in the news are frightened of guns of any kind [especially the "ugly" ones] and refuse to use them under any circumstances, whether they own one or not. Especially the women...which never ceases to amaze me.

They would much rather wait for the police to arrive...and enjoy themselves as best they can under physically abusive circumstances.

One thing -- they are removed from the gene pool...which improves it greatly.

May 6, 2011 at 3:45 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Again, a stereotype, rolando. Not useful or helpful.

May 6, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.
chet123 said...

LIBERTARIAN..wait a minute.....what kind of fool will tell a man what he own!!!BOY YOU SURE KNOW HOW TO LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN....I ADVISE YOU TO NOT BE THAT CRAZY MAN...YOU DONT KNOW WHAT ANYBODY HAVE AS THEY DONT KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE...hey...someone talk to this fool!!!Rush limbaugh will get you in trouble man....

May 6, 2011 at 5:02 p.m.
chet123 said...

GAS 4.00 A GAL AND THIS LIBERTARIAN TALKING ABOUT GUNS...2012 DEMOCRAT WILL RETAKE THE HOUSE...REPUBLICAN CANT GOVERNED BECAUSE THEY ARE OWN BY THE RICH AND GREEDY......THEY LOVE TO TALK gUNS AND ABORTIONS...DIDNT WE DEAL WITH THOSE ISSUES 30 YEARS AGO!!!THEY NOT INTERESTED IN TALKING jobs,HIGH PRICE OF OIL, CRUMBLING INFRASTRUCTUE,OUT SOURCING OF JOBS, INCOME GAP BETWEEN MIDDLE CLASS AND RICH CONTINUE TO WIDEN...CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM...NO..NO..NO..

May 6, 2011 at 5:13 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"Besides, don't complain about "stupid stereotypes" if you're going to make generalizations based on the people you know."

My statement about liberals I know was to counter your stereotype about liberals, which you clearly don't know. I can't decide if you are combative beyond reason or merely stupid.

May 6, 2011 at 8:41 p.m.
xyzyra said...

@Libertarians4Freedom said... Well, Malcom X did become a Muslim in prison, and so have many others. That's the truth, why do you deny it?


Maybe that's because of the way GOOD OLD "CHRISTIAN" AMERICA had long mistreated and abused them? All "christianity" taught the black man for centuries was how to remain on his knees, TO be a GOOD Slave(obey your "massah") and accept beatings. Remember slavery, segregation, Jim Crow and other oppressive American laws would not have existed without the sanction and approval of America's style of religion.

May 7, 2011 at 8:51 a.m.
rolando said...

No less "useful or helpful" than your last, lekeith. My last was simply the flip side of yours and was to counter your outrageous stereotyping.

Pot-calling again, are you? You do that a lot. lol@u

May 8, 2011 at 6:45 a.m.
rolando said...

Back to the main topic...

We need more of this here -- a pilot who refused to take off because certain passengers might make his other passengers "uncomfortable". The shoe is on the other foot...and the Muslims don't like it. Frankly, I am surprised they didn't threaten reprisal...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1384592/Muslim-religious-leaders-told-leave-U-S-domestic-flight-pilot-refuses-aboard.html

May 8, 2011 at 6:55 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

rolando, my post was not addressed to you. Butt out.

May 8, 2011 at 8:36 a.m.
chet123 said...

Rolando...that incident is a result of targeted propaganda direct at islam.....thank to people like you.....memphis is not far from chattanooga..or arkansas, or mississippi...sure the pilot been tainted with right-wing talk..lol LOL..the passengers .. good ole southern baptist..notice ISLAM people were going to ISLAMPHOBIA conference..LOL LOL

May 8, 2011 at 11:20 a.m.
rolando said...

Everything here is open for response by anyone...you want privacy, use e-mail.

That's your standard answer to most everything; challenge, then run.

May 8, 2011 at 5:46 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I challenge you, rolando, to show a time where I "challenged" and then "run". You won't be able to. You, on the other hand, like L4F, do it all the time when your inaccuracies (called "lies" in less polite society) are exposed.

May 8, 2011 at 6 p.m.
rolando said...

They were going to discuss ways to counter criticism, chet.

Not a bad post, btw; relatively clear and cogent. Most commercial pilots have a mind of their own and are not subject to rumor or hearsay. If he says other passengers were uncomfortable with those guys coming onboard in full regalia, then that is that.

When the aircraft is in operation, the captain [the pilot] has command on non-operational issues -- such as who rides and who doesn't. Actually, he doesn't need to give a reason for anything he does. [Operational issues would include takeoff time, routing, etc., but even then he has great latitude.]

In other words, the whiny clerics [or whatever] can go suck rocks; they allow worldwide atrocities against innocent women and children by their fellow Muslims to continue without acting decisively to prevent recurrence. The have made their bed now they can sleep in it with their religious nuts.

May 8, 2011 at 6 p.m.
rolando said...

You just did, lkeith, when you said to butt out -- you ran from the discussion following your challenge about the stereotyping bit. You find it. You just challenged again; ready to run next?

May 8, 2011 at 6:02 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I didn't challenge anyone, rolando. I just pointed out to L4F that his stereotype was useless because it was inaccurate. There was nothing more to say, given that he didn't respond. Since YOU butted in, what response were you looking for?

May 8, 2011 at 7:07 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Oh, by the way, in case you try to misrepresent me again, I have to go to work. I know you think all us "liberals" are on the government teat, but I have been gainfully employed for over 30 years, and I cannot post anymore for the next few hours.

May 8, 2011 at 7:08 p.m.
chet123 said...

Rolando...you say most commercial pilots have a mind of their own!!..not subject to rumor..what study is that based on ???? please tell me!....The right-wing nuts have ruined this country..flooding this country with lies...and as you say opinions. Its apparent, what they are trying to do. Fog the real issue... case in point, In Washington DC ..you have 85 to 90% democrat register voters...they are the most heavy democrat area in the country....yet, Rush Limbaugh radio show flood the air waves, they dont even have a market in washington LOL LOL...Rush is covertly been bank roll by the Rich and Greedy.....they have flooded the air waves with propaganda...so dont tell me pilots are installated from propagada,,, Its an old saying...if you tell a lie enough the people will beleive...at least for a short period of time.

May 9, 2011 at 7:55 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

crickets chirping

no rolando what a big surprise

May 9, 2011 at 7:58 a.m.
chet123 said...

Rolado/seamonkey...they go in hiding when i'm here

May 9, 2011 at 8:01 a.m.
chet123 said...

they on here...just waiting until i leave...i watch their posting time...caught on to their chicken game....those two are the merchants of hate....they are lost without hate-bloggers or FOX(Roger Ailes)and company

May 9, 2011 at 8:05 a.m.
chet123 said...

they ignore actual history...but have a itchey ear for right-wing nuts opinions and lies....they're close minded toward the truth...they dont want it.

May 9, 2011 at 8:10 a.m.
rolando said...

I sleep on occasion. Now then...chet, you are rambling again. Come back when you have something to say that is a little less...ah-h...spaced out.

lkeith, I do have things that are more important than pointing out your idiosyncrasies. Come back when you have something a little less defensive to post. Perhaps you can leave the chip of your shoulder.

May 9, 2011 at 8:11 a.m.
rolando said...

"they on here...just waiting until i leave..." [sic]

Jesus, chet, do you know how paranoid that sounds?

May 9, 2011 at 8:13 a.m.
chet123 said...

are you still hiding

May 9, 2011 at 9:27 a.m.
chet123 said...

Rolando...what an excuse!!! you sleep...i beleive you are sleep typing LOL LOL LOL...because the thing you post have to be dreamed up...certainly not reality

May 9, 2011 at 9:30 a.m.
chet123 said...

Rolando....what fool would use a word like Idiosyncrasy....when posting in a open public forum LOL LOL LOL that suppose to make you look smart? lol lol lol...Man if you know anything about communication(since you a college man)address your listeners or Audience in a clarity manner...LOL LOL Idiosyncrasy LOl LOL if the president would say such...you be crying he cant communicate with the main stream

May 9, 2011 at 9:44 a.m.
chet123 said...

see you hiding again...lie and run....you republican are a disgrace to this great country...republican at one time was well respected....until Ron Reagan(his former employees Roger Ailes Persident of Fox and creator of Rush Limbaugh)drove this country in the ground....lately democrats have had to come behind republican and clean up their mess..Bill Clinton had to clean up behind George H.and Obama having to clean up behind George W.

May 9, 2011 at 9:59 a.m.
chet123 said...

see you sleep again...same old thing hiding playing the "chicken", "scary rabbits" game

May 9, 2011 at 10:01 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Still waiting for you to tell me what response I was supposed to offer. All I did was point out how a stereotype was incorrect. I issued no challenge, and expected no response. You are simply trying to bait me.

I consider this discussion ended, unless of course you have something to request. You are making no sense whatsoever.

May 9, 2011 at 10:02 a.m.
chet123 said...

IKEITHLU....you wont get a response....he's during his homework researching his hate bloggers for information..these BOZO are like Clones...all of them goose-step to the orders of their central sources... think tanks that hide and put their opinion out there like its facts and these Bozo run with that flawed information...and when they run into someone like you(who will challenge them) they get blistered and subsequently run like a scared rabbitLOL LOL.. They are just pawns...very unamerican to be use as punit...the way they allow themselves to be used..

May 9, 2011 at 10:57 a.m.
rolando said...

Still on that, "You never told me" whine, huh lekith?

Back on thread -- since no one has anything pertinent, even interesting to say, I am gone.

May 10, 2011 at 7:19 a.m.
LynR100 said...

Just wait till one of these Islamic Radicals blow up a school, or a plane and then be tolerant, Yeah Right! PEACE ? Muslims worship a pedophile Mohammad. You should read about the mosque on 4th Ave. in Nashville that abuses children. next post http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/04/videochild-marriage-shariah-beatings-in-mosque-in-nashville-tennessee-.html

August 25, 2012 at 3:48 p.m.
LynR100 said...

Read this - Eric Allen Bell on the Mosque in Murfreesboro TN

http://youtu.be/RsQa9UPPkTQ

What the Muslim religion believes!!!!!!!!! Watch Out folks on Gun Barrel Road - what are people thinking??????????

August 25, 2012 at 4:05 p.m.
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