published Sunday, April 18th, 2010

Political Theater

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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nucanuck said...

Clearly Sarah Palin resonates with the Republican Party. She draws big crowds and they seem to like her message. Her popularity grows by the day. I don't understand the attraction.

Would someone on this comment board please help me understand what makes Sarah Palin special. What would make her a good leader? Why would America be a better country with Sarah Palin as our president?

I like to think I'm pretty tuned-in,but I don't get this one.

April 18, 2010 at 12:38 a.m.
alprova said...

I don't think that Sarah Palin's popularity is growing. Those that like her will continue to like her for whatever reason on Earth there is to like her, but make no mistake, the woman is fast running out of things to say. For a lack of a better way to describe it, she has become a broken record.

She managed to get her name in the news just a few hours ago. She claims to have become 'offended' by a comment made by the President on Saturday, when he stated that "America is a military superpower whether we like it or not."

Her response? "I would hope that our leaders in Washington, D.C. understand we like to be a dominant superpower. I don't understand a world view where we have to question whether we like it or not that America is powerful."

People like her will never get it. Being the world's bully or world's police, depending on how it may be viewed, is fast becoming a problem. Our allies are more than a little tired of the way we stick our nose into the affairs of other countries.

Her remarks above followed a dinner speech in Washington, Illinois, at $200 a plate, where she spent the bulk of her time criticizing the President for the recent passage of health care reform that she claims won't work, for the increase in the national debt, and for disagreeing with Israeli policies.

The woman's speeches are not very different from those she made on the campaign trail two years ago. By the time she stumps for Republicans who may or may not invite her to speak between now and November, how long will it be before her novelty wears off and people begin to tire of her predictable rhetoric.

Sarah Palin is all about Sarah Palin at the moment. She is capitalizing on her popularity, and I doubt that even she has a clue what her future plans are. I can't fault her for racking up the cash while people are willing to fork it over to her, but I too am mystified as to why it is that anyone in this nation thinks that Sarah Palin gives a hoot about anything but Sarah Palin.

How bizarre is it that she spent a week in Hollywood attempting to shop a reality show, set in Alaska and featuring her family? Her first Fox News submission, or regurgitated arrangement as it turned out to be, was a complete embarrassment.

No poll taken since 2008 gives anyone any reason to think that Sarah Palin will ever be able garner enough votes to displace our current President in 2012.

Come to think of it, there isn't any other potential Republican candidate that can make that claim either.

I'm quite sure that she is continuously working to find ways to keep herself in the limelight, but the fire will start to fizzle, if it hasn't already.

April 18, 2010 at 2:47 a.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

We recently saw a series of anti-government protests on tax day. This isn't anything new, but the past two years have seen growth and an increase in media coverage.

Anti-tax groups have been around for decades, and April 15th is their day no matter who the president is. New to that mix however, is the recent intertwinment of the like minded Tea Party into their ranks. This is, of course, why the media shows up now, and it's a win-win for both circles in mutual exposure. Sarah Palin spoke to both groups with one voice.

The dark link of this anti-government chain is a silent third locking ring that laces through both groups. This third element has their day on April 19th, and they like fireworks. Palin also used language those people understand and respond to.

The danger for the T-Party is that in such a closely tangled chain, a broad media brush can easily paint them all the same color in one swipe, if things go awry.

T-Party members should hope like me that Monday is a peaceful day, lest they be forced to give the command: "All aback, prepare to distance yourselves!". Indeed, Limbaugh has already put on his life jacket by ridiculously claiming Bill Clinton has incited any future anti-American action (Clinton chided radio talkers for incendiary language).

That big anti-government umbrella T-Partiers have assembled under is warm and cozy in the rain, with a lot of both familiar and unfamiliar faces, but it's nowhere to be when lightening strikes.

April 18, 2010 at 4:13 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Shouting 'Fire'? Good idea, even if Mrs Palin isn't the best shouter: we've gone from huge deficits under President Bush to much bigger deficits, with no end projected ever by anyone, under President Obama; spending from high to much higher; unemployment from high to much higher, expected to stay high even if we're in recovery; regulations and bureaucracy from high to higher, as the liberal aristocrats of the babysitter government, the overseers of the liberal plantation, take to themselves unequal power under the pretense of equalizing wealth...By the numbers, I'm sure President Obama is our worst since President Carter. He may be able to make Mrs Palin, or most any other Republican, look good; I heard tell he polled only 1% ahead of Ron Paul (and even E. J. Dionne or some such liberal admitted Ron Paul could balance the budget.)

Given the failure of Republican politics, and the worse failure of Democratic politics, maybe it's time for Christian politics: let the government terrorize evildoers and praise doers of good (Romans 13), and get paid for that service; get paid to maintain a country where people can pursue whatever goods they choose, with whatever results they get, as long as they don't do evil. Privatize everything else: schools (Baylor, GPS, Harvard), parks (Disney), welfare (World Vision), safety (Underwriters Laboratories), lighthouses (read Tyler Cowan's THE THEORY OF MARKET FAILURE: private lighthouses have been run at a profit)...

The Kingdom of Heaven is like a slow-growing (not violent) tree which houses not just billions of identical twigs, but birds (and nuts and fruits, to be sure): different species. Matthew 13. Read the Bible! God has a great diversity of people, who often get along surprisingly well with Satan's people, though challenging them and warning them of final judgment. And the Bible faces up to the sins of both kinds of people, even their political sins. The trouble with Democrats and Republicans is that it hasn't crossed their minds that there are political sins. Pride--putting oneself too high, thinking oneself fit to run other people's lives for them--is a biggie. If Mrs Palin is against it, good for her.

April 18, 2010 at 5:41 a.m.
EaTn said...

I've not yet determined if Sarah is a brilliant person with a knack to yak or is just the latter. After two years I would assume she has assimilated a wealth of knowledge, but it's difficult to receive anything when the mouth is stuck on transmit. Regardless, she has the ability to mezmerize crowds which politics is basically about anyway.

April 18, 2010 at 6:53 a.m.
rolando said...

Because she represents what the typical American wants, feels, thinks and needs, nucanuck. The communistic Democrat "leaders" [and a few Republican] don't. It is that simple.

Fact is, more Americans identify with her and the Tea Party than with Dear Leader and his policies. [See Rasmussenreports.com]

Perhaps your inability to grasp her and the Tea Party's true import is because you have one foot in socialist nanny-state Canada and one foot in a much more independence-oriented America -- with Canada evidently winning your loyalty. You need to make a decision, perhaps...one or the other. Your choice.

Then again, if the "Slave Media" had properly reported her and the Party's position, policies, etc in the past [as they are beginning to do now before they lose ALL relevance] you would have the info you need to become informed.

April 18, 2010 at 7:22 a.m.
rolando said...

Just a small point of correction, JR.

The Tea Party is NOT anti-government as you claim; it merely wants to cut the behemoth down to size. "Controllable" or "responsive" is a more proper word to describe their idea of what government should be.

But go ahead and stick with your "anti-" if you choose...not that you need MY permission.

April 18, 2010 at 7:32 a.m.
anniebelle said...

I realize math is not CON/Regressives' strong suit, but in this very right-wing paper, TODAY (Page (A11), it says 18% of Americans agree with the Teabaggers' philosophy. I guess in your alternate universe, that's MOST Americans.

April 18, 2010 at 7:56 a.m.
sandyonsignal said...

"Don't retreat- reload!" Palin shrilled to the GOP audience.
One of these days, violence will erupt and this crazy woman will try to walk back from her words. She now says those words were not a call for violence. Yeah right. As Judge Judy says: Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining.

April 18, 2010 at 8:42 a.m.
woody said...

Hey, Nucanuck, I am glad to be of assistance. And, believe it or not, I am going to say Rolando was close..but close don't count except (as I have been told) in the use of hand granades and horseshoes.

I refer you to two separate movies. One is "Elmer Gantry" and the other is "All the King's Men." If you view either version of the latter named film you may find Broderick Crawford's rendition a bit stilted, although he and Sean Penn more than likely gave their best performances in their respective interpretations of Huey Long's alleged claim to fame.

Sarah Palin has also seemingly mastered the art of telling people exactly what they want to hear. That message could be 'Hell and damnation' (referring back to Elmer Gantry) or 'pie-in-the-sky' (as in All the King's men). The determining factor, of course, is knowing your audience and what sort of mood each is currently in.

The only ability she needs to employ is the fine art B.S. And, as any farmer may attest to, you need to know where and how thick to lay it on.

I hope this short dissertation on Sarah Palin's talent has been helpful, but I caution all of you amateurs out there on one pertinent point. Again, know your audience and the more gullible they may be, the more liberally (if you'll pardon the Freudian slip) you spread the B.S.

Now, on to my "Honey-Do" list, Woody

April 18, 2010 at 8:58 a.m.

Funny, all of the above (SP bull tootiers comments) applies perfectly and succinctly to Obama and his minions/henchpeople. Now, if only there are more American folk who know what 'fair and balanced' research means.

April 18, 2010 at 9:33 a.m.
GreenKepi said...

Contrary to what your cartoons portray, these people backing Sarah, for the most part, understand what is going on when it comes to domestic issues and foreign policy.

Sure they are ‘worked up’! They’re trying their best to get the message out to tell our elected officials we're "taxed enough already and stop this erosion of our Constitution!"

But…this outpouring of emotions and free speech…seems to be a crime.

We've gotten to the point where bad choices and irresponsibility are rewarded. Good choices and personal responsibility are ignored at best, penalized at worst.

I work in an area where daily I see a system which encourages us to make stupid decisions without consequences. Get pregnant…here’s a check from the government. Can’t pay your mortgage…don’t worry…here’s another check. Out of work…don’t worry…here is another unemployment check for another year or two.

And…the most amazing thing is…your cartoons make fun if someone suggests that we all might be responsible for the mess we are in.

So much easier to make fun and blame someone else instead of our working together to get us all out of this boondoggle….

April 18, 2010 at 9:34 a.m.
moonpie said...

When he first wrote it, Oliver W. Holmes said it was wrong to 'falsely' shout "fire" in a theatre because a false claim would cause harm.

I think Sarah Palin really does see fire and so do her supporters. To drag out the metaphor....

Some of these fires are real. Some are just images on the screen.

She doesn't seem to be able to tell the difference.

This is a complex world. She's trying very hard to make it simple. To her, it seems there is only one way to look at fire. It's bad - put it out - no matter the purposes of the fire or the consequences of putting it out.

So... Palin is not always wrong.

But we do need people who can discern when to fan the flames and when to extinguish them and when to leave them alone. I have not seen her demonstrate that ability.

She doesn't seem to want Americans to have that ability, either.

April 18, 2010 at 10:16 a.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

She is dangerous and irresponsible. She is a pain profiteer. She has no plan and solutions. She does not represent the 'typical American.'

April 18, 2010 at 10:25 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Neither do you seasmokie

April 18, 2010 at 10:27 a.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

True.... ..but I don't claim to.

April 18, 2010 at 10:34 a.m.
Oz said...

nucanuk wrote....Would someone on this comment board please help me understand what makes Sarah Palin special.......Take away the politics and most American's can identify with Palin. Her family is a normal American family. Pregnant unwed teenagers are fairly common today. Families with a special needs child can identify with her. Mom's can relate to her. Todd is an all-American guy. I think more people would feel comfortable having dinner with the Palin family than any other family in national politics. Remember, I said take politics out of the equation. If she was a liberal, the left would not have an issue with her.

What would make her a good leader? Why would America be a better country with Sarah Palin as our president?.....Those two questions are all about politics. It's the same with every leader. You agree with them or you don't.

The best "so-called" educated experienced political minds in both parties have done a royal job of screwing up America. I don't think either party is really representing us. It's all one big Ponzi Scheme. I'm not anti-government or Tea Party but I am going to be anti-incumbent.

April 18, 2010 at 1:24 p.m.
Clara said...

I'll try posting this comment again.

Andrew wrote " Pride--putting oneself too high, thinking oneself fit to run other people's lives for them--is a biggie. If Mrs Palin is against it, good for her."

But what was she doing when she ran for vice-president?

April 18, 2010 at 1:26 p.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "Fact is, more Americans identify with her and the Tea Party than with Dear Leader and his policies..."

If that were true, then why is it that the woman has placed very close to the bottom when straw polls are taken at Republican Party gatherings?


Woody wrote: "Sarah Palin has also seemingly mastered the art of telling people exactly what they want to hear."

Bingo, and lets not forget that her audiences are comprised of like minded individuals who have PAID to attend and in the rare occasion that someone who is not necessarily a fan of hers is discovered, they have been ejected immediately and with much 'fanfare.'


Greenkepi wrote: "I work in an area where daily I see a system which encourages us to make stupid decisions without consequences. Get pregnant…here’s a check from the government. Can’t pay your mortgage…don’t worry…here’s another check. Out of work…don’t worry…here is another unemployment check for another year or two."

You offer this as if every person who runs into financial difficulties is 100% responsible for being in that circumstance. No woman of wealth ever accidentally found herself pregnant. No person formerly completely self-sustaining ever lost their wealth or their job, right?

Those that cry to the heavens in support of individualism when times are good, are loathe to consider those who are not doing so well at other times in their lives, to be individuals with individual reasons why they are at a low point. It's far easier and much more convenient to lump everyone into one, nice neat group of bums.

Perhaps it is time for a career change. You obviously do not support your employer, who writes your paycheck, nor are you on board with the premise behind assisting the citizens of this nation. Worse, you make your claims while accepting income derived from from the same source of public funds.

Hmmmmm.

April 18, 2010 at 1:40 p.m.
alprova said...

Oz, your comments would be profoundly valid if it were not for the fact that Sarah Palin is the very person who infuses politics into every word that is uttered from her mouth.

Worse, the woman exemplifies many a modern self-proclaiming Christian who can be found across this great land of ours. No one is infallible or without sin as we all know, but there are plenty like her, who will grandstand as if they are without faults of any kind, and for some reason, find it so necessary to criticize others relentlessly.

And yes, I realize that I am basically doing the same thing by typing my opinions of this woman, but then I am not seeking fame and fortune, claiming to be superior to others, nor pondering a run for office as the President of the United States.

What makes her so objectionable, in my less than humble opinion, is her unapologetic worship and to seeking of anything and everything at all that will put money in her pockets, and/or boost her fame. I see nothing Conservative in her demeanor. I think she worships the Green God.

You know, I remember back when she was doing her book tour, how she abandoned at least 300 people in Indiana, who stood all day in a pouring rain to get a book signed and to have a brief conversation with her. These people were core fans of the woman. I wonder how they feel about her today.

The woman is a phony from start to finish. That hardly makes her unique, because there are many like her, most of whom are not even famous.

April 18, 2010 at 2:08 p.m.
amazonmuze said...

Hey Nucanuck: as far as i can tell, from the Palin supporters i have asked, it's all wrapped around religion; For me, she has an androidian quality that borders on scary.

April 18, 2010 at 2:31 p.m.
Oz said...

alprova....The media only gives Palin attention becomes of politics. Why should she talk about anything else? If you are trying to get out a political message.....Would you talk about interior decorating?

Would I vote for her? Probably not. The media has kept her alive and she is playing them for all it is worth. Free daily media coverage at no cost is pretty smart!

April 18, 2010 at 3:20 p.m.
woody said...

A few of the comments posted here today, have given me pause for thought and the desire to amend, not change, my earlier post.

I don't know enough about Ms. Palin to categorically state 'she has no plan or solutions'. However, I believe I have learned enough about her character to understand she could be deemed the new "Queen of the Ballyhoo."

She will 'play' to any audience, anywhere for, just about, any reason as long as there is something in it for her. That something could be money, power or prestige, but mark my words the aforementioned will draw her attention more so than dedication to a belief. Oh, she will forever, and quite prolifically(?) talk the talk, but she has already shown she does not have the inner fortitude to walk the walk.

And, again mark my words, I would say the vary same thing about her if she was affiliated with the "Left." You see, I spent quite a few years in my youth following carnivals and I have always had an appreciation for those who could draw a crowd.. for no other reason than to 'fleece the flock'. Not for the 'act' of fleecing, of course, but for the sheer magnetism they displayed in their words and demeanor.

Ms. Palin is good at what she does..and what she does will catch up with her some day. Because there is always someone better out there..looking to 'fleece the fleecer'.

Thank you for your time and attention, Woody

April 18, 2010 at 4:16 p.m.
alprova said...

Oz wrote: "Free daily media coverage at no cost is pretty smart!"

It's also painfully dangerous considering that she never fails to include some sort of gun related euphemism in every one of her speeches.

I say this and what follows as an avid gun rights advocate and with an NRA card in pocket, alongside my conceal and carry permit.

The difference between my philosophy and hers, appears to be the fact that my guns are for the protection of my property and person. I would not be the first person to feel as if she might actually consider it admirable if someone were to take her words to heart and ultimately used theirs offensively.

Rolando and Scott have both expressed that people are being driven to feel as if this is the next "logical" step in righting wrongs that "average Americans" feel need to be rectified.

How many others are out there that would smile if our President were to be assassinated? John F. Kennedy had his political foes, yet an nation grieved when he was murdered. I am ashamed, as an American, to read some of the commentary that people have expressed in regard to our current President.

To date, not one single solitary American has been taxed a penny more since President Obama was elected, that is unless their personal income has increased during the past two tax years. I absolutely fall into that category.

No tax rate has been upped or amended in any manner by the Democrats. In fact, taxes have decreased through credits that have been instituted to encourage investments in jobs, yet our President has been accused of all sorts of things that are flat out insane, unjustified, and that are outright lies.

For sure, the deficit has grown. The unemployment rates in this country have translated into less money being taken in through the collection of income taxes. Unemployment Insurance payments have been all but taken over by the Federal Government, our financial institutions are still struggling, and let's not forget that the two wars that we have all but forgotten are still racking up expenses of more than a million dollars each and every day.

So, Tea Partiers and the gripes consistently being cited by Sarah Palin, including complaints about taxes are totally without merit.

Deficit spending will not begin to be rectified until our military is back home, when all people who desire a job have one, until our financial institutions quit seeking massive profits by any means necessary, rather than to seek realistic steady incomes, and until people relax and begin living their lives as they did prior to 2008.

There are far too many of us who know who is working to restore a little equality among the average American, and who is clinging to some hope that they will regain their footing to resume the plundering of the financial resources of this nation to hand it over to power seekers.

The game is not new. It has only shifted a hundred or so years into the future from the last time it was played.

April 18, 2010 at 4:39 p.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

Rolando @ 7:32am: I actually agree with your assessment that most T-Partiers are not anti-government. I know more than a few, and they commit to the democratic process to implement change (more or less).

The problem for them, is that are finding solace and companionship with the more unsavory elements of the movement who see common goals. Certainly the far right anarchists and tax revolters would (and do) find interesting speakers at T-Party rallies.

The anti-war movement of the '60s found itself in similar circumstance when peaceful rallies were infiltrated by those who saw ALL government as evil. When factions of the SDS and Weathermen joined in the anti-war movement, guess how the protestors were portrayed by the media.

The T-Party runs the same risk through allegience with the crossover of unsavory and armed anti-government types that they seem to welcome at their rallies.

I imagine the party has a process that grinds the machine into reverse gear if things get ugly, but taunting public statements made by Palin, Limbaugh, and Beck will prove poor testament to their sincerity.

April 18, 2010 at 4:41 p.m.
alprova said...

The undeniable truth;

Liberals/Democrats object to their tax money being used to kill people.

Conservatives/Republicans/Tea Partiers object to their tax money being used to save people.

April 18, 2010 at 4:53 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Sarah Palin and the Tea Party has awakened the silent majority in this Country. They are anti-BIG-government. Sarah really does not have to come up with new things to say. The message is clear and simple, a small government who will stay out of our lives, and follow what our founding fathers wrote in the Constitutional and the Bill of Rights. The Liberals/Socialists/Statists have had a huge networking system that has been in place forever. The liberal media, the numerous unions they have in their back pocket, the numerous agencies that get government grants (riddled with fraud)the pro-choice people, Etc. The silent majority/tea party followers have the NRA and pro-life people and talk radio (the government wants to shut that down too) That's it. Now the silent majority has awakened and the left is now very afraid that their Golden Goose is now in jeopardy. The Democrats are scared that they can't use their victimhood and jealousy rhetortic anymore to get elected. Ohhhhhhhhhh you poor people are victims, you need our help. Ohhhhhhh give me that fishing pole, I'll catch the fish for you so you can eat, please elect me. Now the left is mad now that the tea party has a huge networking system just like they have had forever. Finally the silent majority is awake, they are in the left's heads all of the time, they vote, people know that their message is short and sweet, and they will take their Country back. Sarah, keep giving those short and sweet messages all across the Country, to November and then start again for the 2012 elections. Make our founding fathers proud of us. America will be great again to those who want to work, serve in the military, obey our laws, and just be happy to be left alone, and not looked over by a big government.

April 18, 2010 at 5:46 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Um, in my math classes 18% was not counted as "majority".

April 18, 2010 at 6:48 p.m.
Clara said...

I'm glad the government came into my life, BobMKE.

But that was only a very small part of the government.

I've seen the smallest "Boards" raised to huge proportions by directors wanting a bigger portion of the tax money for their agencies, and so increasing their own stature. Useless titles, waste and arrogance run rampent.

If you've ever walked through the Agriculture Dept. (not specifically) during working hours, you'd get a glimpse of bureaucracy. Not that a Dept. of Agriculture isn't necessary, but it encompasses subdivisions that are somewhat esoteric or downright useless.

I've witnessed the "privately directed" Post office and it's machinations.

There was a large display at the Smithsonian called "We the People" that was dismantled during the Bush Administration. The museum comes under the aegius of any president and the money spent by a former director who lavishly re-decorated his offices.

I imagine many of you have had experiences yourselves with the government. I believe there was a Senator (I can't recall his name,) who had a watchdog approach to what was going on. I haven't seen any replacements of his caliber.

In any case, it's mostly an overloaded system that only benefits those who work in the system. There has always been a duplication of effort in many of the different agencies.

This is my very humble opinion, and somewhat of a tirade, I guess.

Correct me if I'm wrong, which I'm sure you will do!

April 18, 2010 at 6:56 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

al wrote,

"To date, not one single solitary American has been taxed a penny more since President Obama was elected, that is unless their personal income has increased during the past two tax years."

That is absolute, 100%, uncut B.S. and only the ignorant or the dishonest would make such a claim.

As is this,

"The undeniable truth;

Liberals/Democrats object to their tax money being used to kill people.

Conservatives/Republicans/Tea Partiers object to their tax money being used to save people."

Too much kool-aide bud. Your brains are turning to mush.

April 18, 2010 at 8:09 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Clara,

You have a good memory. The Senator was the late William Proxmire from my State of Wisconsin. The only good grade I'll give to a government program would be an A+ to the Military. Like the rest, the BIG Obamacare will get the same low grade like a U or D. These government programs have become a religion to a lot of people.

April 18, 2010 at 8:23 p.m.
InspectorBucket said...

Clinton, Bush, Obama. . . .

As if that sad line of pretenders had not taken us low enough.

And now perhaps "President Palin"?

I say that it is time for Americans to vote like adults, not like spoiled children needing to be entertained, titillated, coddled, or flattered.

This Republic is not here for entertainment value.

Unless Americans drop celebrity politicians like Sarah Palin and specious dissemblers like Obama, we will never get down to taking care of business.

Try a magic trick. Turn off your televisions and disconnect your cable or satellite connections. You will discover something rather odd. Obama, Palin, & co. suddenly have no power over your minds.

Our country has had her heels i' the air too oft of late.

But if there are enough of you who find that you cannot live without a little more of the same, I am certain that there are canny camera-ready politicians like Palin or Obama who are game. . . .

"All this the world well knows, yet none knows well / To shun the heav'n that leads men to this hell."

April 18, 2010 at 9:39 p.m.
Clara said...

William Proxmire! Thank you, BobMKE! I would have thought of it in a few minutes, or several weeks. Not Alzhimers yet!

Something called Aphasic Amnesia!

April 18, 2010 at 9:56 p.m.
alprova said...

Scott asserted: "That is absolute, 100%, uncut B.S. and only the ignorant or the dishonest would make such a claim."

Please Scott, enlighten the peanut gallery by providing an example of any group who has had their tax rates raised so much as one penny since January 2009.

April 19, 2010 at 6 a.m.
rolando said...

lkeith, you confuse "more" with "majority". The phrase was that more people identify with Sarah Palin and the Tea Party than identify with Dear Leader and his entourage as posted a while back at Rasmussenreports.com.

For annieB -- "Today" is irrelevant. Rasmussen Reports has the most accurate predictive polls of all pollsters. If they post that more probable voters identify with the Tea Party than with Dear Leader and his motley crew, then more probable voters do.


Here is what that darling of the Left/Progressives -- NPR -- has to say about our current government's believability:

"Majority of Respondents Don't Trust Washington

"A new Pew Research Center survey finds that nearly 80 percent of respondents say they can't trust Washington, and have little faith that the federal bureaucracy can solve the nation's ills. Director Andrew Kohut tells Steve Inskeep that only 22 percent said they can trust the federal government "almost always or most of the time."

THAT sure sounds like Tea Party Americans to me. Eighty percent. Sounds sorta "majority-ish".

It also blows Clay's cartoon to H--- and back.

Go Tea Party.

April 19, 2010 at 7:41 a.m.
rolando said...

JR - agreed, essentially.

All American political parties have/had their unsavory elements from the 1700s on down. Our Founders were among them, so far as the English and the Loyalists were concerned. Christ even had them -- he hobnobbed with them. The Media's "Christian terrorists" had a registered Democrat among those arrested [the others were non-affiliated].

The Democrats also attracted the SDS and the Weathermen...terrorists by any definition. Somewhere in the mix are Republicans, I'm sure.

Point is, those groups were and are NOT politically connected in the public eye, regardless of their supporters.

Things are a bit different today, the Slave Media sees to that...a la Hearst's "You give me the pictures, I'll supply the war."

The old Barons die hard...but they ARE dying...or more accurately, going bankrupt.

April 19, 2010 at 7:55 a.m.
Clara said...

I'd like to see the list of people to whom PEW sent the questionaire!

April 19, 2010 at 9:04 a.m.
nucanuck said...

In an economic downturn,every substantial economic downturn,people become upset,unsure,and often angry without fully understanding why. Marriages are tested,societies are tested,nations are tested.

The Tea Party is the child of this particular downturn and may grow into a strong opposition block to Democrats AND Republicans. Stimulus money may have given us a breather from the downturn,but the debt/credit mountain has not been addressed. A further,deeper downturn likely awaits us when the stimulus wears off and our foreign creditors decline to lend us more. In that atmosphere the Tea Party and other groups could lead us toward some level of anarchy as anger and frustration grow.

Since we know that is a behavior pattern in hard times,we should be able to find ways to innoculate ourselves against self-destructive behavior. Will we?

April 19, 2010 at 9:46 a.m.
TNborn said...

Ms. Palin is a cheeleader who has no idea what the game is really about. She can get the fans to stand up and holler; but after the adrenalin rush subsides, she has nothing to contribute. Her so-called 'popularity' will come back to bite the Republican party when she splits the power and message among the members. No doubt, when she fails to garner enough support to gain the Rep nomination for President, she will again "go rogue" and declare an independent campaign. The Rep party should fear her for that reason. The Dem party should encourage her until she falls flat on her face. She started her 'campaign' much too early to survive through the next election. I am usually a Dem supporter; however, I would support almost anyone else who could defeat her in the primaries/election because she is not smart enough or strong enough to guide this country effectively. I will concede that she is cute, but cute evaporates as a leadership quality the day after high school graduation.

April 19, 2010 at 9:51 a.m.
rolando said...

No doubt the Republican Party -- with the willing and active help of Dem primary cross-voters and the Slave Media -- will again nominate the perennial, dependable loser...McShame...McAmnesty...McCain; name him what you will, he will get the nomination. And lose in the general, of course. Count on it. What a wuss. This time they will pick a non-threatening nobody for the #2 position...can't have another Palin stealing Mac's [and BO's] limelight.

The Republicans are themselves losers these days, along with the Democrats. That is why 80% of Americans distrust our government and fully one-third fear the loss of their freedoms to that same government. One-third.

It is time for a third party, who or whatever it is.

Isn't it nice to know that one-half of our citizens are now supporting the other half that pays NO taxes? Fifty percent are on the dole and riding the backs of the rest of us...sounds like Dear Leader has just about met his goal of full socialism in his watch.

"If they are In, they are Out."

April 19, 2010 at 12:11 p.m.
nucanuck said...

So rolando,YOUR third party will tax the bottom 50% to share the load? The $30,000 household,after various withholdings,hasn't enough to support a family with a couple of kids in today's world. Say you tax them a modest $3,000,which to them is a devastating blow,but to the government (X 50 million households) doesn't really do much.

By my reckoning,rolando,you would put a nail in the coffin of half of America and call it only fair.

I suspect neither the Tea Party nor Sarah Palin will be calling you as a consultant. JMO.

April 19, 2010 at 12:45 p.m.
InspectorBucket said...

Americans should hope that several strong opponents would meet on the field of contest and sharpen their opposing ideas into more effective detail, in a diamond-cut-diamond fashion.

Instead, our political culture thrives on reactionary politics, sound-bite thinking, gotcha score-keeping, and celebrity stunt-candidates.

"Vote for Obama because he sounds like the quick solution to the mess into which Bush has led us."

"Rally to Palin because she looks like the shiny jangly tool needed to unite a reaction against Obama's muddled socialism."

The End justifies the Means, whatever the cost.

Would that Ends and Means could both serve Truth. Would that our country could work for a civic life in which "Man's word is God in man."

The lipsticked Palin, like teleprompted Obama, hawks her wares in the market of Illusion and Vanity.

April 19, 2010 at 1:42 p.m.
TNborn said...

Rolando - as usual your hyperbole is difficult to understand - whatever your message is, it is drowned out by your anger....

April 19, 2010 at 1:43 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Hey, SCOTTYM, Rolando, MountainJoe, ever notice that when we write a great post that makes sense, makes good points (like mine as posted above)the likes of Clara, Woody, Alprova, Nucanuck Etc. don't response or they just pick out one thing, and the rest of the post they can't make an good argument against. I think it is very obvious that when we make a point that has them, we leave them speechless, and scared, because they know what the future will bring when we take our Country back, and their Socialism/Statism ideas won't rise its ugly head again for decades.

April 19, 2010 at 2:50 p.m.
nucanuck said...

BobMKE,

Before you hurt your arm patting yourself on the back,let me suggest that your post might leave people speechless,but not because of the insight or brilliance. I found your comment to lack original thought or persuasion...just rather mundane.

Sorry

April 19, 2010 at 3:10 p.m.
SBrauer said...

You know the one thing that really scares me is the lack of brains power in some of these answers. Our great and glorious leader (please note lack of capitol letters) has done nothing to help this Country. He has divided it, spent more in taxes for the next 10 years than we can possibly afford, sold our soul to Japan, screwed up our military by taking forever to make up his mind about sending more troops to Afganistan,(he still hasn't sent them all yet) insulted Israel (God will get him for that, I'm sure) bowed to foreign leaders, lied(sometimes just by omission other times just flat out) has not been transparent in his dealings with the American people, ignored imigration, hired a bunch of Socilist/Progressives/Marxist, as his advisors, ignored corruption in Congress and the House, forced a Healthcare Bill on us we don't want, (I did so enjoy seeing all the debates on CNN and especially liked reading it online for 72 hours before it was rammed down our throats.(I'm sorry, I meant passed.), running all over the world doing nothing but trying to up our taxes more, not to mention 'Cap and Trade'. This small list is only for starters. Wait and see what else he's going to try and slip thru on you. Get real and get you heads out of the sand. This fearless leader is a danger to your country. Don't let him pass the point of no return..........if he hasn't already.

April 19, 2010 at 3:35 p.m.
Jhenry said...

I'm shocked that someone thinks that The Chattanooga Times Free Press is a right wing paper.

April 19, 2010 at 3:58 p.m.
Oz said...
April 19, 2010 at 8:18 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks, Oz! That one is great!

April 19, 2010 at 8:42 p.m.
moonpie said...

BobMKE, I went back looking for your brilliance. I found your brilliant post. I didn't see anything really worth refuting. Let me break it down as to why:

Sarah Palin and the Tea Party has awakened the silent majority in this Country. (Opinion - which may be true, or not.)

They are anti-BIG-government. (Not debatable - if you mean social programs are big government and not military might or domestic spying.)

Sarah really does not have to come up with new things to say. (This has been true for most recent election cycles. No argument here. She doesn't even have to be smart! She doesn't even have to remember that she's against taxes. She can write it on her hand.)

The message is clear and simple, a small government who will stay out of our lives, and follow what our founding fathers wrote in the Constitutional and the Bill of Rights. (Except for domestic spying, and allowing Big Business to rule your lives instead of government. To each his own.)

The Liberals/Socialists/Statists have had a huge networking system that has been in place forever. (Hyperbolic opinion that can neither be proven or disproven, and the argument goes both ways.)

The liberal media, the numerous unions they have in their back pocket, the numerous agencies that get government grants (riddled with fraud)[those were your parentheses] the pro-choice people, Etc. (A lot of these groups only seem liberal if you are to the right of them. If you are to the left... they look more like BobMKE. It depends on your perspective.)

cont....

April 19, 2010 at 8:46 p.m.
moonpie said...

The silent majority/tea party followers have the NRA and pro-life people and talk radio (the government wants to shut that down too)[your parentheses] That's it. (OK. So you've got Rush Limbaugh. Not exactly a model citizen.)

Now the silent majority has awakened and the left is now very afraid that their Golden Goose is now in jeopardy. (Which Golden Goose? Welfare isn't exactly a golden goose. People in power? This is so vague it's virtually meaningless. People in power are always afraid of those who will take it away. Nothing original here.)

The Democrats are scared that they can't use their victimhood and jealousy rhetortic anymore to get elected. (But the Republicans can?)

Ohhhhhhhhhh you poor people are victims, you need our help. (And the Republicans believe that no one needs any help? You only offer an extreme, is the appropriate answer also an extreme?)

Ohhhhhhh give me that fishing pole, I'll catch the fish for you so you can eat, please elect me. (Scorn? Really? That's not a good argument. There are a lot of social programs that try to teach people to fish. But if a woman can't afford to feed her child, you are both against welfare and abortion? Yet you offer no real solutions for her. Thanks for nothing, I guess.)

Now the left is mad now that the tea party has a huge networking system just like they have had forever. (I have never known the Republicans to be short of networkers. Perhaps you don't know the right republicans. The way you talk, W, was never elected president.)

April 19, 2010 at 8:48 p.m.
moonpie said...

cont....

Finally the silent majority is awake (debatable - I get that some are making noise, but we don't know how their message will actually translate at the polls - perhaps their naked hostility will drive even more people from their corner) they are in the left's heads all of the time (maybe, there is still 1 out of every 7 seconds left for thinking about sex, so the left will be ok) ..... (come to think of it, maybe the left is 1 in 5 seconds), they vote (yes, thanks for all the great choices in the past -- now go divide the party with your opposition vote just like you did with Ross Perot and give the election to the democrats), people know that their message is short (yes) and sweet (yes, like the Majority of the Tea Party activists saying their Taxes fair), and they will take their Country back (and give it back to big business!). Sarah, keep giving those short and sweet messages all across the Country (are you talking about the message, or something else? You sound a little too into Palin and I'm a little creeped out.), to November and then start again for the 2012 elections. Make our founding fathers proud of us (you want to go back to allowing slavery? take away the vote from women? News-flash, they didn't have it all right.) America will be great again to those who want to work (as opposed to most Republicans I know who admit they don't want to work but want to get rich quick and retire.... ok), serve in the military (a lot of Vets will beg to differ - very 40's and 50's mentality - but it's a nice sentiment - except when you're sent to an unjust war.... I'd be with you here if our military wasn't abused), obey our laws (good advice to all - except the Original Tea Party - oooops - how quickly we forget our American History), and just be happy to be left alone, and not looked over by a big government (thank you for not tapping my phone, too).


OK, Bob, I don't really have a bone to pick with you. You're probably a great guy, and there are many things we probably actually agree upon. I was really just having fun here. You just said your post was brilliant and supposed that a lack of response was something other than indifference or self-absorption. I'll confess, I think nearly everything I right is AWESOME. Congrats on the healthy ego!!

April 19, 2010 at 8:49 p.m.
sd said...

Mr. Bucket wrote, "I say that it is time for Americans to vote like adults, not like spoiled children needing to be entertained, titillated, coddled, or flattered."

I sympathize with your point, but the love of bread and circuses is human nature and it won't change.

I think the best you can ever hope for is a politician that can work efficiently and effectively within the system (Obama's suggestion that he could somehow change "business as usual" in Washington was egotistical, naive, and condescending, to say the least) and who genuinely wants to build the same type of structure you want to build. I wonder how often those stars align?

I don't think it's reasonable to wish for people, or politics, to change. In 2,000 years the dance between the politician and the public has remained generally the same. The people who shape this world operate with the materials at hand.

You just gotta roll with it, right?

The Romans loved crude comedies and gladiatorial events; Americans love American Pie movies and WWF wrestling. We're not exactly making leaps and bounds, here.

April 19, 2010 at 9:36 p.m.
rolando said...

Thanks again, Oz. Seriously, thanks. This case is freaking unbelievable. Something from the dark ages when women were chattel. Or from present day Islam...

April 19, 2010 at 9:44 p.m.
rolando said...

"This Republic is not here for entertainment value."

Nor is it here to be turned into the emasculated, socialistic laughing stock it has become, Inspector.

April 19, 2010 at 9:51 p.m.
rolando said...

nucanuck said, "So rolando,YOUR third party will tax the bottom 50% to share the load?"

First, you claim 1/2 of the American citizenry earns less than $30,000/year, nucanuck. Stats to back that up, please.

My claim - supported by drudgereport -- states that 1/2 of the citizenry pays no federal income taxes at all. There was no dollar value placed on their income, just a flat-out fifty percent or 1/2 of our citizenry. Period. You read things that aren't there...a common failing.

You are partially right on my second point.

Second, I would require ALL able-bodied citizens to "share the load", in your words. Those permanently unable to work for physical or mental reasons, as well as those needing temporary help, would not need to "share the load". There are, after all, legitimate reasons for not "sharing the load"...refusal to work or contribute is not one of them.

Just as well I am not President nor do I aspire to such a currently demeaning job. [I am NOT an expatriate and am qualified to make such a statement.]

One-half of the American citizenry riding on the back of the productive, tax-paying half is flat-out obscene and is the wet-dream of LeftProgs dating back to the 1920s.

April 19, 2010 at 10:12 p.m.
rolando said...

Stick around, TNborn. You'll pick it up.

Angry? Yur durn tootin' I'm angry. If you aren't, you might be part of the problem...ever think of that?

April 19, 2010 at 10:17 p.m.
moonpie said...

Rolando... Laughing stock? Who's laughing at the US and why?

April 19, 2010 at 10:23 p.m.
alprova said...

Rolando offered: "Nor is it here to be turned into the emasculated, socialistic laughing stock it has become, Inspector...."

...said the poster child who is a long time recipient of the very kind of Socialism that he purports to hate with every breath he takes.

Every dime you have taken in income came from the taxpayers pockets. Every cent set aside in benefits that you currently enjoy today comes from the pockets of the taxpayers of this nation.


"One-half of the American citizenry riding on the back of the productive, tax-paying half is flat-out obscene and is the wet-dream of LeftProgs dating back to the 1920s."

And where do you think you fit into all of this? You're one of the many who depend totally on the Government, with the assistance of the "productive, tax paying half," in order to keep you in the lifestyle that you have become accustomed to.

You're totally pathetic Ronnie.

When you condemn Socialism, you merely condemn yourself.

April 19, 2010 at 10:49 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Moonpie,

Now your post is the way to respond, and in length. Thank you for taking the time to cover every point. You went above and beyond and I have to admire that. We will not agree on everything and I'll take your points into consideration for further posts.

April 19, 2010 at 11:41 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

al, after being called out for B.S. wrote,

"Please Scott, enlighten the peanut gallery by providing an example of any group who has had their tax rates raised so much as one penny since January 2009."

It only takes one to expose your B.S., and here it is

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2009-03-31-cigarettetax_N.htm

Not just a one penny increase, but a 250+% increase.

April 20, 2010 at 12:48 a.m.
Clara said...

SCOTTYM,

What exactly are you objecting to? It's the best tax I've ever not had to pay.

It's a tax designed to get money from those who will not fight or even try to control an addiction that affects not only themselves, but other people.

It is a discrimnatory tax, and the govenment is making lots of money from it.

Since I'm allergic to tobacco smoke, I'm free of the tax, but I'm not free of the smoke. Two of my children and a son-in-law smoke continuously, spending money they need for other things.

If your smoking only concerned yourself, I would say you had the right to complain, but your addiction affects others and has been proven dangerous to others. You know that Scotty, but needed to prove a point against Alprova.

But this post will probably drive you to distraction because you are intelligent, but sadly in need of being superior in your attitudes and beliefs, and the stands you take.

This, definitly, is off-topic.

I will therefore go on to today's cartoon, wishing you good health and continuing efforts to control your addiction, which must be a very difficult thing to handle, considering all I've witnessed from other smokers.

April 20, 2010 at 5:35 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Clara,

Al stated above that not one single group of people has seen any tax increase since Odumdum took office. I called BS, and he chose to continue the charade.

I deal in facts. He deals in BS.

That is my only point with the above comment.

April 20, 2010 at 7:27 a.m.
acerigger said...

i smoke,i pay the x-tra tax,my choice. however,as one of the 95% of Americans who got a tax break for '09,i want to say "Thank You" to president Obama

April 20, 2010 at 9:40 a.m.
rolando said...

Why is the Tea Party attracting so many people? In a nutshell, see http://townhall.com/cartoons/2010/04/20/1

April 20, 2010 at 10:15 a.m.
rolando said...

Obviously you do not expect any employer to honor their contracts with their employees, alpo. You must be an employer of some sort...or on the dole.

You obviously do not expect any employer to honor their retirement benefit commitments to their employees, either. You must be a union hack of some sort with embezzlement or "mismanagement" on your mind...or on the dole.

Your broken record don't [sic] play...a contract is a contract regardless of employer.

April 20, 2010 at 10:35 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Alprova said:

"To date, not one single solitary American has been taxed a penny more since President Obama was elected, that is unless their personal income has increased during the past two tax years."

Despite the silliness of this statement, I'm going to ignore it and posit the following: It's not this year I'm worried about - it's 2-3 years out and future years thereafter. I'll take what i can get while I still can. If any of the Obama lemmings actually believe the road he and his administration is taking us down is sustainable without massive tax increases (and not just income tax), you have your head somewhere it doesn't naturally fit. And please don't start with the Bush BS. Bush started it for him and did multitudes of things wrong. He was a piker compared to Obama. I have yet to see any actions from this administration that will actually put the feet back under American manufacturing. You know, that place where real wealth comes from or maybe you don't know.

April 20, 2010 at 6:59 p.m.
alprova said...

After many hours of digging, Scott came up with: "It only takes one to expose your B.S., and here it is

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxe...

Not just a one penny increase, but a 250+% increase."

Really now Scott, is this the best that you could come up with? A tax on tobacco?

Number one, this particular tax is voluntary. All one has to do in order to avoid it, is to abstain from using tobacco products. People who rack up fines for speeding can avoid those costs by driving the speed limit. No one is forcing anyone to pay this increased tax.

The President is not behind this particular tax increase, and in fact it is not the first time it has been proposed. Former President Bush vetoed a similar proposal sent to him by Congress while he was in office. The current President agreed to sign it this time around because the taxes collected are funneled to the Children's Health Insurance Program, or did you miss that particular aspect of the story?

Even Fox News reported that aspect, without objection.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/29/single-largest-cigarette-tax-hike-goes-effect-wednesday/

Personally, I don't think they need to stop with tobacco. I wish they would slap a five dollar tax on ever bottle of beer, wine, and alcohol. Yeah, it would put a hurtin' on alcohol suppliers, but who really NEEDS alcohol anyway? I dare say that those products kill as many people, if not more than tobacco does.

April 20, 2010 at 11:57 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Despite the silliness of this statement, I'm going to ignore it and posit the following: It's not this year I'm worried about - it's 2-3 years out and future years thereafter. I'll take what i can get while I still can. If any of the Obama lemmings actually believe the road he and his administration is taking us down is sustainable without massive tax increases (and not just income tax), you have your head somewhere it doesn't naturally fit."

No one is denying that there will not be tax increases. However, this notion that the middle class will be targeted is bunk, it always has been bunk, and it will pan out to be regurgitated bunk.

The President has made no bones about the fact that those who make more than $250,000 a year will be targeted for increased taxes. Under the Republicans, top tax rates in place for most of a century were cut substantially.

Despite all of the above, strides will be made in reducing the currently alarming national debt when our economy kick starts once again.

All this whining and moaning about taxes is very moot, because no one is paying more on what they have or what they have earned since President Obama took office. Most people have enjoyed quite a few reductions in their obligations to the Government over the past 16 months. I happen to have paid more, but then my income increased dramatically beginning August of last year.

The Republicans made a very bad mistake when they dismantled the tax rates to reward those who have more and earn more. The rich are spoiled rotten. Like it, don't like it -- it's the freaking truth.

And while this may be a sore spot for some, the simple fact is that there are many out there who can afford to part with some of their cash to fund our Government. About half of this country cannot, because they are living check to check, or worse.

Those making six figure incomes and above are not likely going to have to forgo paying rent, risk having utilities cut off for non-payment, or going hungry, after writing their checks to Uncle Sam, that is unless they spend all that they make to live their lives.

Just as the poor are continuously told that life is not fair, the opposite is just as true when it comes to forking over taxes.

I have said it before and I will write again;

No one is forcing anyone to make those six figure incomes, when it comes right down to it. If you do, free yourself of the obligation of paying more in taxes than your poorer peers by quitting that high paying job, and by giving away your assets, if paying taxes is your biggest gripe in life.

Who needs all that stress?

In conclusion, if and when there comes a time that these 'massive,' predicted tax increases are ever instituted upon the shoulders of anyone but those who can clearly afford to part with them, let's be sure to revisit this subject.

Right now, people are up in arms over nothing, literally.

April 21, 2010 at 12:46 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

al,

Try more like 3 seconds of searching.

Spin all you want, you're still either a liar, or a gullible fool.

A bit more than 20% of the adult U.S. population uses tobacco products. That would be a group of around 50 million individuals.

Their taxes went up. You were absolutely wrong with your assertion.

You can man up and accept that you don't know what your talking about, or you can continue to act like a child and make up all kinds of excuses for your ignorance.

BTW, one can avoid paying ALL taxes if one is willing to give up earning and/or spending any money, though I'm not sure what the relevance is of that line of "reasoning".

April 21, 2010 at 8:05 a.m.
Sailorman said...

I guess since Obama is apparently restricting his promise fed income tax, the BS is OK.

He could confiscate 100% of the wealth of everyone making over 250k and that would only make a dent in the deficit - one time. Taxes have to be expanded to the middle class since that's where the bulk of the money is. Further, the only place state and local taxes of all kinds won't rise is la la land.

The current path is unsustainable - period. The only effective way to return to some semblance of financial rationality is a serious reduction in the size of government. Expansion of government and its associated regulatory grasp is hardly going to "kick start" the economy. It will only continue to strangle it.

Oh and get your salt while you can. Fed regulation indeed!

April 21, 2010 at 9:05 a.m.

Scotty and Sailor make way, way too much sense of the facts at hand. But then you guys are not (unfortunately) running the country and are not dismantling everything good, true and proven to work over time, like the Constitution and the creation of REAL jobs to kickstart a dead economy. Like the present Congress and White House crowd are doing.

PS: to get informed on the coming huge taxes on the middle class and working poor, best start checking out and reading myriad sources of information. Info is rolling in from Economists worldwide on the insanity of the bailouts, Cap n' tax, EPA bills, "Health" bills and subsequent high costs to the whole healthcare industry, bankruptcy of the nation and it's states, etc.

So sit pretty, high on your mounds until 2012 (that's when Obama and friends have decided to wait-after the coming elections-like a fox, ey?); that's when the taxes are set to skyrocket. Gotta love those who continually brag about how nice and cushy THEIR lives are now. No foresight, no insight, and absolutely no regard and compassion for the future kids who'll be paying for it all when most of the incredibly wealthy leave the US and/or put their vast treasure offshore. Each to his own, eh? Real compassion for the poor, yeah right.

April 21, 2010 at 10:33 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I have a question regarding federal taxes (as I cannot find the answer to this):

Today in the news (in this paper) there is an piece about income tax. It included this statement:

"Nearly 22 percent of people making between $50,000 and $75,000 have no federal income tax liability. And 9 percent of households with incomes between $75,000 and $100,000 don't have to pay income taxes."

How does one make between 50k and 100k without paying any taxes? What sort of income type (at that magnitude) would be exempt from income tax? Or is it that so many people can find that many deductions so to drive their tax liability to zero? You guys know WAY more about this than I do. Can you help?

April 21, 2010 at 12:25 p.m.
Sailorman said...

"How does one make between 50k and 100k without paying any taxes?"

There are others considerably more qualified than I to answer that but my short answer is - playing the tax code.

In my own case (I still paid some taxes), I lost a chunk in the market and my little LLC lost money as well. These losses ended up on my my tax return and reduced the amount I owed. I would rather have had no losses and paid more tax. The big boys manage to do that. There are really cagey accountants and tax lawyers out there that can play the code like a well tuned violin. It is so complex there is ample opportunity for anyone with the money to find a way to avoid taxes. That complexity isn't there by accident. Of course, there's the illegal route too.

Read the article una61 cited in the cartoon thread and see what GS did with their taxes.

April 21, 2010 at 4:12 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

ikeithlu,

I'll second Sailorman on this, "playing the tax code".

For a business owner, the money spent on a good tax accountant/lawyer is a drop in the bucket compared to the tax exposure a lack of awareness can cause.

I'm not sure how highly paid employees get around a lot of the taxation, but as the co-owner of a small business myself I can say that my partner and I seek out every single tax break we can legally take advantage of.

It's a bunch of little things.

If you use your own car for business, that's $0.50 a mile, tax free, right off the top. (It was $0.54 in previous years, but that is another of those "non-existent" tax hikes al was BSing about.) It adds up quick for a business that involves lots of field work all over SE TN, especially if you drive an efficient and reliable vehicle.

Clothing which is specific for the job and/or embroidered with the company logo...tax free, right off the top.

Office supplies...tax free, right off the top.

Equipment for office or field has to be depreciated over time which just means you have to spread the tax break over multiple years.

This is the tip of the iceberg.

Now the bad part.

My partner and I like to have 6 month reserve of operating capitol in the bank, just in case things get slow or an expensive piece of mission critical equipment breaks. The ugly part is that whether we take that money out of the business and stick it in our own pockets or leave it in a money market account held under the business, we still owe the taxes for it on our personal income taxes. OUCH!

There is a self employment tax of 15.3% on every penny under 106 grand, only half of which is deductible from one's taxable income. This is on top of the regular income tax. OUCH!

I'll quit now as I'm getting sick at my stomach, and dinner is almost ready.

April 21, 2010 at 6:48 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Wow. I am employed by a non-profit. Other than deductions for charitable gifts, some for education and the usual deductions (mortgage interest, dependents), I must pay a lot of tax (most of which is withheld, so I feel lucky when the withholding is calculated correctly and I don't owe much.) My taxes improved this year when a child, who was in Americorps, returned to the "dependent" status to enter college. Even so, I pay a lot in taxes. I can see the advantages for self-employment are important for the health of our small businesses, but if this is how the numbers quoted in the article are excused from paying tax, I wonder if it is too easy to avoid ALL taxes. Now, I realize if a family has excessive medical expenses, an itemized deduction would reduce their taxes. Maybe they make up some of these percentages?

April 21, 2010 at 7:17 p.m.
Oz said...

lkeithlu...3 or 4 kids make a difference on taxes. It blows your budget the rest of the year! LOL

I miss my 2 at tax time but I don't miss them on the budget the rest of the year.

Weddings are not tax deductible either?

April 21, 2010 at 7:40 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

ik asked, "How does one make between 50k and 100k without paying any taxes?"

I'd like to know the answer to that one as well.

I'll hazard a few guesses.

Deducting sizable state income taxes(This is over ten percent in some states)? Same with high local property taxes. Once you get to itemizing, that $14,000 worth of interest you paid on your $0.4M house in New Jersey last year goes POOF at the Fed level. In some areas of the country you'd be talking big deductions.

Add a few kids, take a loss on some investments, hey, be "green" and buy a hybrid car(good for a $3500 deduction and you NEED a new car anyway) and then pay somebody to figure out all the other ways you can avoid taxes.

Gross income and taxable income are two related but completely separate numbers due to the complexity of our system.

Taxes rates are graduated by "taxable" income level. The delta between some peoples' "gross" income and their "taxable" income is large due to advantageous use of the tax code.

Oz wrote, "Weddings are not tax deductible either?"

Is the wedding being held in an area/building owned by a non-profit? Ask your tax guru about that one. A quick search suggests that you could write off the cost of the venue if it is owned by a non-profit. Churches may not fit this.

Competent professional advice is worth every penny paid when dealing with many things in life.

The tax system in this country is likely the single most complex, Rube Goldberg type system which has ever existed in the history of humanity. Added to that, if you get it wrong, the BEST outcome is that you get to pay multiple extra bucks in the form of fines. The worst that could happen is you go to Fed.jail and your current life is rendered empty of you.

Just remember that it isn't against the law to AVOID taxes, but it is against the law to EVADE taxes.

April 21, 2010 at 10:20 p.m.
alprova said...

Scott wrote: "al,

Try more like 3 seconds of searching.

Spin all you want, you're still either a liar, or a gullible fool."

Hey...you're the one who keeps saying that people's taxes have increased. I'm still waiting for the proof. No one is paying more taxes to the Federal Government, especially businesses.

Don't sit there and call me names because you can't dig up anything other that a 'stupid' tax.

"A bit more than 20% of the adult U.S. population uses tobacco products. That would be a group of around 50 million individuals.

Their taxes went up. You were absolutely wrong with your assertion."

If anyone imbibes tobacco of any kind in the year 2010, they are quite stupid. Therefore they voluntarily pay this increased tax and harm their health at the same time. It's a tax on stupidity.

As much as you would like for you to be right, you simply fall short. A tax on income or on capital gains is far different than comparing them to a completely unavoidable sin tax. But I understand that this is all you can dig up in a lame attempt to disprove the fact that no one is being taxed so much as one penny more on what they earn or on that which they own, to the Federal Government. About two thirds of this nation have in fact been paying less under the Obama Administration.

"You can man up and accept that you don't know what your talking about, or you can continue to act like a child and make up all kinds of excuses for your ignorance."

That's hilarious. You could man up and accept the fact that you cannot come up with any proof of all regarding these supposed increased taxes that are supposedly plaguing tea-baggers. It's a farce. If it weren't, you'd have come up with something...anything other than a tobacco tax that has been in play long before Obama was elected.

"BTW, one can avoid paying ALL taxes if one is willing to give up earning and/or spending any money, though I'm not sure what the relevance is of that line of "reasoning"."

It's rather elementary. I've outlined it as clearly as I can.

I'm hoping to write a check to Uncle Sam next year for double what I wrote this year. Why? Because it will absolutely be an indication that I had a fantastic year of earnings. I don't necessarily agree that taxing income is the fairest system of taxation, but it's the way we are taxed in this country for now. I deal with it.

Now I don't know for sure, but you might be one of those people who would turn down overtime hours on a job, because more taxes are taken out of your paycheck.

If you own a business, do you turn down customers because additional income might kick you up into a higher tax rate? There are people out there who actually think like that. All some people seem to focus on are taxes.

There is no such thing as a tax bracket that would cause anyone to give up more than 35% of what they make to the IRS.

April 22, 2010 at 1:45 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

al,

Spin away bud.

Your wrong and I've listed two reasons now. Did you miss the mileage exemption change?

Argue all you want, you're getting no where.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

April 22, 2010 at 7:06 a.m.
Oz said...

SCOTTYM....You are right about good competent tax advice. I quit doing my own taxes almost 20 years ago. Knowledge is less expensive than ignorance.

20 years ago, I figured my own taxes and owed $2,500. I sought out a competent tax professional and quickly realized I knew nothing. After he went through all of the deductions I was eligible for and did not know about; I sent in a check for $200. That experience made a believer out of me.

My tax pro is very conservative and old school. No funny business and by the book. I do not want to cheat anyone including the government. Stealing is stealing in my book.

I admire creative people but I do not want a creative tax person.

April 22, 2010 at 9:47 a.m.
alprova said...

Scott amazingly shot back with: "al,

Spin away bud.

Your wrong and I've listed two reasons now. Did you miss the mileage exemption change?

Argue all you want, you're getting no where.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts."


Well, I'm sure that I'm getting nowhere with you, because you are convinced beyond your own intelligence that you are being taxed into oblivion and that President Obama is behind it. Unfortunately for you, there are much smarter people out there who are aware of the falsehoods being spread by those much like yourself.

Your tobacco tax argument went down in flames, so lets visit this, your latest attempt to discredit me, after you apparently have spent time consulting with fellow tea-baggers.

The standard mileage rate decided by the IRS is based on several factors. One major factor involves retail prices of motor vehicles and their residual values three to five years down the road. Probably the most important factor which affects the decision on the rate is of course, the current and predicted price of fuel.

When fuel prices increased drastically in 2008, the IRS standard mileage rates for business were increased in proportion to compensate for that change. The rate was hiked to 58.5 cents a mile, not the 55 cents you claimed earlier, during that year.

The opposite happened when the price of gas went down. The first decrease in the standard mileage rate following that historical high went into effect 20 days prior to our President taking office. The mileage rate is indirectly decided by the inflation rate, as gas prices are directly related to inflation. Inflation increased and then it decreased.

So I'm so sorry to inform you Scott, that for as as much as you would love to attach this tax change to the hip of the President, you're just not going to be able to do it.

If you are going to take to the dance floor and argue taxes and finances, you really shouldn't try to tango with someone who earns his living working in that arena.

April 23, 2010 at midnight
SCOTTYM said...

al wrote,

"No tax rate has been upped or amended in any manner by the Democrats."

This is absolutely untrue. I've given two examples and yet you refuse to acknowledge reality.

You continue to argue about everything BUT the statement I called you on.

This is why "liberals" are incompetent in government, disassociation from reality.

There is an objective reality(some taxes HAVE gone up), the there is alprova's world (those don't count 'cause, hey, he doesn't count them) and never the twain shall meet.

April 23, 2010 at 7:35 a.m.
alprova said...

Scott wrote: "al wrote,

"No tax rate has been upped or amended in any manner by the Democrats."

If you're going to attribute something to me, make sure I wrote it. I don't believe I ever used the word "Democrats" in my defense of the President, who has been saddled with the charge of raising taxes on Americans. It's pure bunk.


"This is absolutely untrue. I've given two examples and yet you refuse to acknowledge reality."

Scott, you used to be a little more reasonable than you seem to be regarding this subject. You're coming off much like a child in your arguments.

The tax increase on tobacco is only a tax if you make a conscience decision to purchase tobacco. It is not a forced tax and anyone can avoid it completely. If you go out and purchase a pack of cigarettes, you're donating a dollar and some change to the Government, plain and simple.

I again remind you that this tax increase has been in play for at least four years. Look it up. Former President Bush vetoed a similar Bill on July 15, 2007. He did this over the objection of his fellow Republicans who were seeking to expand the CHIP, for the same reasons that the Democrats wanted the tax on tobacco increased.

It's why politicians love to kiss babies on camera. It's why Hillary called for villages to raise the children. It makes mommies vote for 'em.


"You continue to argue about everything BUT the statement I called you on."

Quite the contrary. You're standing on ground made of Jello.

Offering he standard mileage rate was worse than grasping at straws of grass to keep you from falling over the edge of a cliff.


"This is why "liberals" are incompetent in government, disassociation from reality."

Okey Dokey, if you say so. I can't argue semantics. I try to stick to the facts unless opinion is all that factors into the debate.


"There is an objective reality(some taxes HAVE gone up)..."

Yet you can't cite one that can be laid at the feet of our President.

For the record, when Bush was in office, I defended him against such statements, if in fact Bush had no complicity in tax manipulation. I forever defended Bush for the fact that when he did lower taxes on the top income earners -- a provable fact, he also carved out the 15 percent tax rate for those earning far lower incomes. He took full credit for insisting on the rate changes.


"...there is alprova's world (those don't count 'cause, hey, he doesn't count them) and never the twain shall meet."

Well...okay.

April 23, 2010 at 11:34 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"If you're going to attribute something to me, make sure I wrote it. I don't believe I ever used the word "Democrats" in my defense of the President, who has been saddled with the charge of raising taxes on Americans. It's pure bunk.

alprova | On: April 18, 2010 at 4:39 p.m. wrote,

"To date, not one single solitary American has been taxed a penny more since President Obama was elected, that is unless their personal income has increased during the past two tax years. I absolutely fall into that category.

No tax rate has been upped or amended in any manner by the Democrats. In fact, taxes have decreased through credits that have been instituted to encourage investments in jobs, yet our President has been accused of all sorts of things that are flat out insane, unjustified, and that are outright lies."

(I added the "wrote" after the time tag and the quotation marks. All the rest is copy/pasted directly from other posts, by you, on this page.)

You've spun completely off the tracks.

You've gotten so busy circling the wagons and misdirecting, that YOU don't even believe YOU could have written "No tax rate has been upped or amended in any manner by the Democrats."

Which is, as I wrote "... absolute, 100%, uncut B.S...."


On a side note,(And occasioned by your refusal to grasp reality.)

I have a theory about why you think Odumdum is so smart, and I just need you to answer a few question so that I might be better informed about why you think the way you do.

  1. Did someone drop you on your head when you were young?

  2. Did you ingest bits of paint that chipped away from any structure more than 40 years old?

  3. Do you now use, or have you used in the past, any hallucinogenic substances?

  4. Do you believe that a deluge of sophistry and a rambling narrative can transform untrue words into facts?

  5. Do you believe that flatulence from a one horned equine smells similar to the prismatic effect of sunlight passing through water droplets?

  6. Do you have any memories of being abducted by aliens?

  7. If you do believe that you were abducted by aliens, do you have any reason to suspect that those aliens may have altered your neural pathways.

Sorry for the personal questions. If any of the questions are too personal, let me know and I'll see what else I can come up with.

April 24, 2010 at 2:56 a.m.

Scotty, you know and I know arguing with...a Progressive-Leftist is like attempting a logical conversation with a human going through the terrible-twos stage of life.

That human brags continually (like Progs tend to do) about making oodles of money and not really caring about paying taxes, "because it helps all those poor people". We know nothing could be further from the truth. The rich have great financial advisors (and he's one of them) and get incredible deductions, the poor get a 'free ride' and the masses of middle classes (or what's left of them) get stuck with the Bill. Time and time again.

Not blaming Obama's administration, his 'advisors' and appointees, his frequent visitors like Andy Stern and George Soros (who have actively and vocally expressed their agendas, Marxist belief systems and willingness to make over America into a quasi-Soviet Europe), is the epitome of dishonesty. The Democrat Congress and Senate have also gleefully gone along with the agenda, fast tracking every high tax Bill their polluted imaginations can conceive of. To have the chutzpah to even argue that higher taxes aren't on the horizon and that Obama and thugs know nothing of it, is the highest order of deviousness and/or stupidity.

Here's the reality: All Americans should get on board with better researching of the facts and be prepared to vote the Right Reps in next time, if we have a chance to, that is.

April 24, 2010 at 6:57 a.m.

William Shipman's March article on repealing the 16th amendment because it's a violation of the 10th, should be looked at. "Politicians...entitlement promises will burden us with ever increasing payroll taxes. They have added new tax rules and levies that make the tax code unintelligible.." he goes on to posit what cutting further spending (which Obama and crew refuse to do) can do to jumpstart our economy and push us back into the goods and services market.

Michael Whalen writes about the costs of doing business in the present economy for a 100 room hotel he owns. (and taxes will be soaring in the next little while on his enterprise): $199,000=property tax. $162,000=pillow tax. 6% sales tax on revenue that yields $124,000 annually. Then sales tax on toilet paper, shampoo, continental breakfasts, amenities that hotels usually provide customers, because they are "selling space" the gov't claims. $3,000 in licenses and fees, $60,000 in payroll taxes and the gov't claims that hotels have a depreciable life of 40 years. Still, the hotel has to pay for purchases to constantly refurbish the hotel and maintain it and pay sales taxes on those purchases. So far he says, the bill is $550,000 and that doesn't even include State and Fed taxes (which are huge) and the mortgage payment.

Because the Hotel is owned by a Subchapter S Corporation, he has to report the income on his personal tax return even though it is not his income. He states: "But President Obama and many in Congress don't think we pay enough in taxes because we're "rich". If he sells the hotel, he pays 25% tax and if he and his wife die, they pay another 45% estate tax. If he didn't love his work, he'd obviously quit. And just wait, in the next year or so, many will be forced out of their businesses because of the rising taxes on all of us. And that will be America's loss of course.

April 24, 2010 at 7 a.m.

Michael Barone's excellent piece on the Bond markets and the true cost of Obamacare is another revealing look at why Moody's warning that we will lose our AAA rating soon is imminent. So are the states pension funds, which are seriously underfunded. But Obama's Gov't continues the big spending, even while states coffers collapse. Former CBO Director, Douglas Holtz-Eakin said Obama's crew "gamed" the CBO's projections in order to pass the bills. Tennessee's Governor has also warned about our own state's situation regarding a burgeoning deficit. James Carville, Clinton's advisor in the 90's claimed if he died, he would like to come back reincarnated as the Bond Market, because "he could then intimidate everybody". Nancy Pelosi believes we can save ourselves if we add the sneaky (usually 15-25%) value added tax.

But that's the Prog mindset. Sneaky and stealing from the taxpayers? Good stuff baby. Barone's assessment is that "we know from the experience of high-tax Western Europe and relatively low-tax America over the last three decades, higher taxes tend to retard economic growth..lower economic growth means less revenue than in CBO projections...more borrowing...and lenders are going to call a halt.." on the whole shebang. Obama's "project of transforming the US into something like Western Europe (ie Marx Land)..raising the national debt burden on the economy to World War II levels..." is the epitome of aggressive arrogance.

But experience, History-of-what-works and worldwide economic expert analyses, never mind the fiscally conservative, tried and true methods are ignored. In favor of true, Marxist, Progressive policies and agenda. Is it any wonder we can shrug like Atlas and weep like scorned lovers?

To paraphrase the astute BobMke elsewhere on this site, I think we, who have already read Animal Farm should petition all Progressives and our Gov't to read the book (and a few, similiar others) and then go look in the mirror. Might see something they don't like. But will they change? That is the $64,000 question Bubs.

April 24, 2010 at 7:04 a.m.
alprova said...

Scott wrote: "(I added the "wrote" after the time tag and the quotation marks. All the rest is copy/pasted directly from other posts, by you, on this page.)"

I stand corrected. My apologies. I truly did not remember writing the phrase.


"On a side note,(And occasioned by your refusal to grasp reality.)

I have a theory about why you think Odumdum is so smart, and I just need you to answer a few question so that I might be better informed about why you think the way you do."

And this has what to do with the subject at hand? Do you think that I am not fully aware that you are simply one of those people who intensely dislikes our President?

You're blinded by your own hate. You will pin anything and everything to him because you hate the man. Now I could sit all day and come up with all kinds of reasons why you might feel the way you do about the man, but to what end?

You'll still blame him for everything that ails this nation, however remote it may be that he has anything at all to do with it. Right?


Read some facts Scott. We've played with this long enough.

The standard deduction was raised $500.00 for year 2009 from $10,900 to $11,400 for joint filers. That is a tax cut.

If you received Unemployment Compensation during 2009, the first $2,400 was exempt from any tax whatsoever. That was an unprecedented tax cut.

The 65% subsidy used to pay for COBRA benefits was completely exempt from Federal taxes, another deep tax cut for many Americans.

The Alternative Minimum Tax exemption was raised for 2009. Admittedly, it does go back down this year.

Deductions were instituted and exemptions raised for those with IRA's, and deductions were allowed this past year for those who paid local, state, and excise taxes on motor vehicles.

A first-time home buyer was allowed to file for a credit for up to $8,000. That's a tax cut of immense proportion.

Credits were upped for those who have children and for those who spent money making their homes more energy efficient.

Tax-free, catch up contributions made to qualifying retirement plans for those 50 years of age and older, were raised to $5,500 in 2009, over and above the $16,500 that anyone can contribute, tax deferred.

This year, new rules now in place will make rolling over a traditional IRA to a Roth extremely tax advantageous for many people. You'll be able to spread the payment of any tax implementations over a two year period. When you retire, your withdrawals will be absolutely tax-free. The modified AGI limit rule was eliminated.

Now I don't credit the President directly for these absolute tax cuts and credits, but most of the above did go into effect since he took office.

Kinda blows your theories out of the water, eh?

April 24, 2010 at 7:27 a.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "That human brags continually (like Progs tend to do) about making oodles of money and not really caring about paying taxes."

You lie!!


"We know nothing could be further from the truth. The rich have great financial advisors (and he's one of them) and get incredible deductions, the poor get a 'free ride' and the masses of middle classes (or what's left of them) get stuck with the Bill. Time and time again."

I'd respond to this, but I can't stop laughing. You're a person who claims to deal in facts, and you prove it by offering garbage like this -- so easily debunked.

Chances are, you're paying less than 15% of your income to the Government in the form of income taxes.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Money/2010/0412/Tax-day-101-Who-pays-no-income-taxes-on-April-15

As to my being a financial advisor to the rich, I'm not quite all that.


As to the rest that you wrote, it's the same crap, repackaged and rewritten that we have been reading for 16 months. Nothing to see here -- Move along.

Blah...blah...blah..............blah.

April 24, 2010 at 8:30 a.m.
Sailorman said...

alprova

You and Scotty can argue as long as you like. Some taxes went up, some taxes went down, some remained the same. Some like the energy credit you have to spend to get. I should spend $14,000 replacing windows to get a $1,500 credit?

The fact remains the entire tax system is a social engineering, Washington power maximizing shell game that inevitably will screw the middle class.

April 24, 2010 at 10:51 a.m.

I rest my case and so do all the guys I quoted above, all of them smarter than the 'two year old' immature Rant Artist above. He would also be wrong about my tax rate, funny how right he always thinks he is...As for 'garbage', that and perverted comments are just about all that excretes from his mouth. His facts? Laughable cut and pastes from the Marxist White House website and the rest of their lapdog Media. Not an original thinker among them. Pitiful stuff.

April 24, 2010 at 2:38 p.m.

Canary wrote: "That human brags continually (like Progs tend to do) about making oodles of money and not really caring about paying taxes."

You lie!! (Username: alprova On: April 24, 2010 at 8:30 a.m.)

How easily one alpie so soon forgets the lies and projections he utters, the spinning of the truth. This is what happens to those who can't keep track of their hypocrisies (the archives are full of the same, including statements about being glad to pay a lot of taxes-it's for the poor of course); and what happens when humans have no substance of soul, only an empty shell, filled with platitudes and vanities.

Alpie, just from this thread: "I'm hoping to write a check to Uncle Sam next year for double what I wrote this year. Why? Because it will absolutely be an indication that I had a fantastic year of earnings".

"There are far too many of us who know who is working to restore a little equality among the average American, and who is clinging to some hope that they will regain their footing to resume the plundering of the financial resources of this nation to hand it over to power seekers". (read the benevolent, compassionate Marxist/Progressives who are "redistributing" the wealth vs. the evil Republicans who give it away to more evil ones).

"...I can't fault her for racking up the cash while people are willing to fork it over to her, but I too am mystified as to why it is that anyone in this nation thinks that Sarah Palin gives a hoot about anything but Sarah Palin". Another projection about his own greed? Funny, we wonder why anyone would EVER think alpie "gives a hoot" about anyone but alpie.

"...nor are you on board with the premise behind assisting the citizens of this nation".

More of the same pap-"assisting the citizens" while "racking up the cash" from your clients, eh? aah, so compassionate, I can hear birdies singing. And the sounds of silence when too many "poor" citizens die due to failed Marxist/Progressive policies gone wrong....like in Germany, China, Cuba, the Soviet Union, North Vietnam...etc, etc. Bet you'll cry a river of tears for their poor souls, now woncha?

April 24, 2010 at 3:13 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: " Some like the energy credit you have to spend to get. [Why] should [I] spend $14,000 replacing windows to get a $1,500 credit?

The energy savings that will surely be forthcoming is a very good reason to purchase energy saving windows. The %1,500 credit is an offset, or a head start if you will, to those savings and it represents cash that you would not have if you footed the entire costs for replacing those windows.

It's not a credit that people would seek just to get a tax break, but if your home needs new windows and you do replace them, it sure makes sense to file for the credit.

April 24, 2010 at 9:51 p.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "He would also be wrong about my tax rate, funny how right he always thinks he is..."

It makes no difference what tax bracket you fall into. It is a certainty that no matter which one it may be, that you paid less in terms of percentage in taxes of your AGI for year 2009 than you did in 2008, UNLESS you earned enough money that you were propelled into a higher tax bracket because you did indeed earn more income.

Fox News posted a story just today, confirming that taxes indeed were down for this past year. Argue with them Mr. or Mrs. Potato Head.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/20/taxes-gone-obama-increases-loom-analysts-say/

In that article, you will read;

"Obama has proposed extending the Bush-era cuts except for those individuals making more than $200,000 a year and couples making $250,000. Rep. Sander Levin, D-Mich., acting chairman of the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, affirmed on Monday that his panel will focus on extending Bush's tax cuts for the middle class."

You began a post with..."I rest my case..."

And now I rest mine.

April 24, 2010 at 10:04 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Alprova

The point isn't whether I should or should not replace windows. The $1,500 isn't a tax break if I have to buy it.

I stand by what I said. Fed tax rates are the least of the problem.

April 24, 2010 at 10:12 p.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "Funny, we wonder why anyone would EVER think alpie "gives a hoot" about anyone but alpie."

Are you under some impression that I am obligated to justify anything to you, of all people, regarding who or what I give a hoot about? Even your gender is the most guarded secret held in this forum.

You are a person who has whined repeatedly after making declarations of what a fine Christian you are, that you don't seem to get the respect you deserve.

I, on the other hand, don't wear my Christianity on my sleeve, nor do I have to declare it. I live my life, most of the time, as an example of Jesus and try to emulate the man at all times.

You might take a moment to reflect on the demeanor you have expressed on this site so many times. It reflects upon yourself and it negates any claim you make to be a Christian.

And you call me the hypocrite. Pardon me if I consider any opinion by you of myself to be quite irrelevant and inconsequential.


"More of the same pap-"assisting the citizens" while "racking up the cash" from your clients, eh?"

I imagine that the irony you should immediately recognize after typing such a sentence would be completely lost to you. I admit that I had no idea that you were a person who has never exchanged money for any services you provided to an employer or to any customer of your business. I suppose that the necessities of life that all need to survive fell from the sky in your case.

Hilarious.


"And the sounds of silence when too many "poor" citizens die due to failed Marxist/Progressive policies gone wrong....like in Germany, China, Cuba, the Soviet Union, North Vietnam...etc, etc. Bet you'll cry a river of tears for their poor souls, now woncha?"

You were such an attentive student in history class, weren't you?

Everyone, no matter how ignorant, is entitled to believe what is shoved down their throats as written in history books. All references to propaganda aside, there is no such thing as a perfect form of governance. There are flaws in all of them. None of them have any regard for peasants, contrary to your distorted beliefs.

In all of those countries you mention, there is a key factor involved that led to atrocities within those borders. Tyranny was the compelling factor that led to attrition or overt neglect of those with little or nothing.

I am but one man, with little or no power to influence the matters of Earth. I have been powerless a time or two in the distant past to provide the basics for those within my own family.

I accepted long ago that I was not put on this Earth as a person who was provided the means to change the world.

Maybe you think you were.

April 24, 2010 at 11 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "The point isn't whether I should or should not replace windows. The $1,500 isn't a tax break if I have to buy it."

I think the point is that the tax break is available to anyone who may have the need to replace their antiquated windows.


"I stand by what I said. Fed tax rates are the least of the problem."

I agree, but all debate aside, the simple fact of the matter is that many people of this nation are in a world of hurt at the moment, and the last thing that needs to be done now would be to cut people off completely from the lifelines that they need until the economy recovers.

When, not if, but when people are in the position to resume their lives prior to the economic collapses that have plagued each and every one of us, one way or the other, money to begin to pay down the debt will begin flowing into the Government again.

Those who earn above $200,000 are going to be targeted for an increased amount of taxes. That is rather certain and it should be expected by all those who fall into that income class.

It all comes down to who can afford to part with a little more, or millions, as the case may be. If by some remote chance, my business grows to allow me to earn above that minimum, I will dutifully write those tax checks and will not complain a bit.

If I were to magically purchase a lottery ticket and those balls fall in such a manner that I win a huge jackpot, I understand fully that the amount I win will be dramatically reduced by as much as a little more than half the jackpot amount to pay income taxes.

The man who won the $258 million jackpot just the other day opted to take the lump sum amount, giving him $125 million and change. Does anyone think he's sweating it?

No...the man is ecstatic over the amount he now has to provide for his family's future, as I'm sure most people would.

Another certainty that we all should recognize is that no one is going to be taxed to the point that they are going to be giving up anywhere near the percentage of their income to the Government, based on what they work for and earn, in comparison to what that man was because it fell into his lap.

I consider it my duty to pay taxes to support the functions of Government -- even for those that I disagree with. I pay a sliver compared to what I once did. I hope at some point to be able to write tax checks in the future over and above what I once did.

Isn't that the way we should all look at it? If you don't, then maybe a more productive effort on the part of Tea-Partiers part would be to work to change our Federal and State systems of taxation so that income is not the measure by which we are taxed.

That will be an extreme uphill battle, because just about every politician loves to manipulate the tax system, back and forth in order to get votes.

April 24, 2010 at 11:36 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"The man who won the $258 million jackpot just the other day opted to take the lump sum amount, giving him $125 million and change."

$125M minus the tax. Of course.

The difference between the 258 and the 125 is not taxes. It's the contractual payout over time vs. the contractual lump sum payout. All of this is before taxes. You know this, and to spin it otherwise is yet another deception.


"The fact remains the entire tax system is a social engineering, Washington power maximizing shell game that inevitably will screw the middle class."

Yes, but I'd drop the "inevitably", replace "will" with "is" and add "ing" to "screw".

April 25, 2010 at 2:56 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Alprova

I don't think I'm being very clear. Let me try this another way. My problem is not with the energy rebate, or even taxes per se. It is with an ever more intrusive and meddlesome government at all levels that demands more of my money. I don't want another irresponsible cut in taxes. I want a reduction in the amount of money the government consumes - less government. I have no problem paying taxes to support functions which are legitimately that of government i.e. courts, roads, defense. (See the constitution) I have immense problems paying for studies of the sex habits of hookers in Bangkok.

While a problem in itself, the tax system is a more symptom. So I repeat - as amended (ty Scotty)

The fact remains the entire tax system is a social engineering, Washington power maximizing shell game that is screwing the middle class.

Wow - did this ever get off topic.

April 25, 2010 at 7:52 a.m.
alprova said...

Scotty wrote: "$125M minus the tax. Of course.

The difference between the 258 and the 125 is not taxes. It's the contractual payout over time vs. the contractual lump sum payout. All of this is before taxes. You know this, and to spin it otherwise is yet another deception."


You're right. My apologies. I was very careless on that one. I wrote it without thinking it through.

He will or has had 25% withheld for Federal taxes and another 4% for Missouri state taxes on the lump sum amount, or approximately $31,250,00.

The point I was trying to make is that he is appreciative for the roughly $88,750,000 that he will bank, and is not focusing on the amount in taxes that were deducted from his winnings.

Of course, I think he's rather stupid to throw away the $133 million of his winnings, again before taxes, that he opted not to spread out over 26 years.

Thanks for calling me on the carpet on that one.

April 25, 2010 at 9:15 p.m.
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