published Sunday, April 25th, 2010

Spray Tan

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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anonymight said...

This is a concrete example of how socialism is eroding our freedom: if immigrants were unable to steal public benefits from taxpaying voters, taxpaying voters wouldn't care who came here and why. Without socialism, we could have open borders.

April 25, 2010 at 12:13 a.m.
alprova said...

There's no shortage of ignorance surrounding this issue. Arizona has declared war on all Americans who reside within or who are merely passing through, especially if they are Hispanic.

Illegal immigrants do not come to this country to take advantage of "public benefits." They come here to work, plain and simple. Do some find ways to save money by taking advantage of services provided to all Americans? Absolutely, but that is no reason to pass legislation that turns a free state into one where you must provide proof of one's citizenship if they are stopped by a law enforcement officer.

The law will not stand for very long. It represents an affront to one of the very freedoms that has always existed in this nation -- to be free from invasive search and seizure. If this insane law is allowed to stand, what's next for the rest of us?

This country is currently experiencing an economic crisis. Popular opinion might involve the thought process that by ejecting all illegal aliens from our nation, that Americans who desires to, will be able to find jobs. There is a small problem with that line of thinking.

The jobs that most illegal aliens eagerly accept are often jobs that most Americans feel are beneath them. They usually pay minimum rates of pay or are exempt from federal wage standards, they more often than not involve real physical labor, or are performed in inclement weather. Almost none of them come with benefits.

I've made a point in the past that this nation needs to welcome those illegals already here and we need to invite more to join us in this country for a couple of reasons.

Number one, the time is fast approaching that Baby Boomer's are going to be retiring in droves. Social Security will need the support of contributions by a necessary number of those who are in the workforce in order to keep the system solvent.

Secondly, because most of those who are here are typically younger in age, they will be able to contribute to the Social Security system for many years to come before they are eligible for benefits.

Statistically, illegal immigrants live their lives low key, responsibly, and despite their currently illegal status, they contribute billions to the economy of this nation.

I say give them the right to seek citizenship, to be able to file tax returns and claim over-payment of income taxes that they most certainly are paying into the Government, so that they too can go on to do bigger and better things to provide for their families as all Americans do.

Doing so can only benefit our nation as a whole.

After all, how many Americans currently drawing unemployment compensation are actively seeking to pick vegetables and fruit in the hot Sun? Not many at all, I assure you. They fill a need or they would not be here.

April 25, 2010 at 1:10 a.m.
GlacierClipper said...

Alpravo, I agree with you!

April 25, 2010 at 1:55 a.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

If the police had permission back in the early '70s to pull over anyone who "looked like" they used drugs, I would have been busted about half the time.

I guess I couldn't complain about the lucky hits, but the misses would have been pure unconstitutional discrimination.

I'm not claiming it would have been as bad as racial profiling, but none of us would allow the government to single us out as a target for enforcement, whether it's because we "look like" a drinker or "look like" a child molestor. We can't be detained because an officer thinks we "look like" a shoplifter or if we "suspiciously" wear camoflauge pants in the city.

What? We're talking about Hispanics? Well then, conservatives don't mind giving up their rights.

April 25, 2010 at 5:36 a.m.
EaTn said...

The above comments, both right-wing and left-wing, are basically correct. Illegals are here for the same reason we would if we were in their shoes, and both current and previous GOP and dem presidents and congress are to blame for not addressing the issues. They are here to share in the American dream, while many in this country have exploited them to make a buck with little law enforcement. Unfortunately many of the illegals, like us, have found it easier to make a living on drugs and such rather than from sweat labor. Some in places like Arizona are fed-up and are taking action, whether rightly or wrongly.

April 25, 2010 at 5:43 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Alprova said

"There's no shortage of ignorance surrounding this issue."

then he followed it with

"Arizona has declared war on all Americans who reside within or who are merely passing through, especially if they are Hispanic."

which proved his point. If you were a rancher on the Arizona border, you're perspective might be different. EaTn is far closer to the truth.

April 25, 2010 at 8 a.m.
woody said...

I guess I must also hark back to something Alprova stated earlier, "There's no shortage of ignorance surrounding this issue."

I agree..wholeheartedly!

Arizona's actions seem to be right in line with legislation recently passed here in Tennessee. In essence it boiled down to the fact, if Tennessee statutes couldn't mandate or ensure that business owners would see to it their employees 'carded' all those who appeared to be too young to buy beer then Tennessee would mandate that everyone, no matter how old they appeared to be, would have to be carded.

Problem solved..no matter how much ignorance surrounded the issue.

So, it would appear if Arizona statutes can't mandate or ensure that business owners there be aware of who they are hiring and employing (or maybe they are) then they will simply enact new legislation to ensure that all, no matter their legal status, would be singled out until their legal status can be defined.

Problem solved..regardless of constitutionality or what-have-you.

Again it would appear the actions of a few make it hard on everyone. I may deride the actions of both state legislatures but, in fact, the fault lies with a select few who, through, apathy, greed or whatever chose to either ignore their responsibilities or simply broke the law to enhance their respective 'bottom lines'.

If ignorance is truly bliss then there must be a whole lot of blissful individuals out walking around.

As an aside to our favorite cartoonist, Clay you may have given our legislature an idea for something new to tax in lieu of or in addition to all those tanning beds, to help bring our state back into solvency. Thanks.

Thankful to be alive and (sun)tanned, Woody

April 25, 2010 at 8:35 a.m.
OllieH said...

Right, anonymight, socialism is to blame.

I would claim it's capitalism, not socialism, that is the problem. The people who immigrate to this country illegally are not doing so to take advantage of social programs, their coming here for jobs.

And the employers within this country who are more than willing to look the other way on the citizenship of his laborers, in exchange a cheaper workforce.

Although there are a few social programs that are available to legal and non-legal residents alike, that doesn't seem to be the prevailing complaint I hear on this issue. The main beef most have with illegal immigrants is that they are taking jobs away from Americans.

April 25, 2010 at 8:51 a.m.
OllieH said...

By the way, GREAT cartoon, Clay! Again, you've hit the nail on the head.

Under this law, if your skin is darker, you will be pulled over more often than caucasians, and you will be subjected to a line of police questioning and demands that lighter-skinned people in Arizona won't.

We all know that racial profiling goes on. Ask any black man who's driven up Signal Mountain. But what Arizona has done is to legitimize the practice by literally writing racial profiling into the law.

This will be challenged in court, and it will be overturned. But until it is, I would avoid traveling through Arizona. Unless you're lily-white.

April 25, 2010 at 9:18 a.m.
anonymight said...

Socialism takes lazy Americans and supports their belief that there are jobs that are beneath them.

I don't believe anyone is too good to pick vegetables in the sun.

White socialist paternalism that supports the idea that the brown skinned should come here to do the jobs our government pays white people not to do is un-American. Why would any of you take such a racist position. Let white lazy people starve and they'll beg to get out into the field. Capitalists will hire them to pick lettuce right along side those brothers of ours from south of the border.

Sure these people come here for a better life. Open up the gates. Don't fence them out or fence me in. Just quit asking me to fund their healthcare or the multilingual education for their children. Tear down housing projects that fester crime and deport the able bodied lazy to make way for the hardworking immigrants who know how to work.

April 25, 2010 at 11:07 a.m.

Talk about Tea Party/Sarah Palin fear-mongers! Talk about Ivory Tower Progressive-Leftists pontificating about a state(s) where they have never lived, especially never been robbed, raped or killed by the thousands of illegals who cross with no intentions of a nice, little job "Americans won't do". What hypocritical, erroneous nonsense.

The world here is not only upside down, but insane when some believe the illegals are all innocents just trying to work and help us, yet blame Americans as if they ARE the perpetrators.

Arizonans, Californians and other citizens in border states where violence, beheadings and smuggling of drugs/humans is rampant, have the right and the say-so how they want their states run AND to enforce our existing laws. California has been run into the ground, a perfect example of just HOW illegal immigration and all the problems that ensued does NOT work, ever. BTW, the filthy rich Liberals/Leftists in that state just love to have their low-paid illegal slave labor. They could care less, the middle class and their jobs are pretty well dead and gone now.

Recent news articles on the dire situation at our borders outline the facts: that Janet Napolitano has been consistently saying the problem is much better, while US (hispanic and english) citizens were being gunned down (with children and an unborn baby killed) at the US consulate in Juarez; ranchers on the border have been murdered in cold blood, like Robert Krentz who was known to provide water and medical care to the border crossers, and suffered robberies, threats and property damage.

The authorities in all border states acknowledge landowners on or near the borders are being deluged with violence from smugglers and drug cartels. Ciudad Juarez (border city) had 5,000 killings alone from 2008 to the present. The Mexican Gov't despite billions of our taxpayers dollars sent to alleviate the situation, has made little headway. They try but the Cartels are continuing their murder sprees on both sides of the border.

"Last year the US Justice Dept. identified more than 200 US cities in which Mexican drug cartels maintain drug distribution networks or supply drugs to distributors.." (Tennessee is one, for those who like to wear rose-colored glasses). "The National Drug Intelligence Center in its 2010 drug threat assessment report described the cartels as the single greatest drug trafficking threat to the US".

Meantime, no National Guard on the borders to prevent cartels or Islamic terrorists, who now work with the cartels to cross our southern borders, from entering the country. This Gov't, like the last one, yet worse, has done nada to help border states. When you big talkers live down there and work for years like many Americans do, then maybe you'll get smart. But I doubt that, considering the stupid "racist" remarks above.

April 25, 2010 at 11:22 a.m.

BTW, pollings show 63% of African Americans and 54% of Hispanic (legal US citizens) say the US has TOO MUCH immigration and in these tough times should protect our borders and ease off on the influx. That includes many of us who have been told over and over by Hispanics that Illegals should not be allowed in the US and are breaking our laws by sneaking in. Americans "won't do the low-level jobs" has been proven time and again to be left-wing garbage-talk. Re: agricultural work, able-bodied citizens on welfare and/or migrants with lawful permits should and could do the work. This is a job Depression for many, all who can should work.

Recap: the Progressive-Left demonizes White, American Citizens ("they're a bunch of racists") who work and pay mucho taxes, excuses any who break our laws because they are "poor, hard-working minorities", and throws mucho dineros (US tax dollars) at the corrupt gov'ts in Mexico and Latin America to solve the 'problem'-for years. And the 'problem' does not go away, it increases big time.

That can of sarcastic "tanning spray" that jumps on the bandwagon of ooh, ooh, Arizona is so racist, it's gonna pull over any and all dark people, profiling them, they're so innocent, is an example of typical Leftist misinformation. It should be showcased on South Park or the Simpsons to reveal to millions just how ignorant that premise is. Or as one 13 year old on the news who was 'fear-mongered' said, "THEY'RE gonna stop me on the way to my school and accuse me of being illegal. THEY'LL put me in jail!!" ooh, ooh. What an ignorant, easily led herd we have in this country, led by their "Progressive" media complex-in bed-with-this-Gov't, of course. The irony is they ignorantly believe THEY are the "intelligent" ones.

April 25, 2010 at 11:23 a.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "If you were a rancher on the Arizona border, you're perspective might be different."

I knew someone would be bringing that up.

Robert Krentz, the man who was killed in his motor vehicle and on his property that bordered Mexico has been cited as a reason for enacting the law. The only problem is that the circumstances surrounding his murder are completely unknown. The assumption is that he was killed by an illegal immigrant.

This law represents the most heinous examples in a long list of knee-jerk legislative laws enacted that do nothing to address a problem, but instead are passed because the opportunity to do so is as ripe as a red tomato on the vine.

No landowner near the border will be any safer than they are today as a result of this law. Instead, every person of Hispanic decent, including citizens of the state, are now subject to be detained until their citizenship can be established, if they are unable to provide immediate proof of their status.

Also cited is the fact that 70% of Arizona's citizens approve of the law. Anyone care to bet on the odds that these 70% are just about all Caucasians? And people would like for us to believe that racism no longer exists in this country.

I'm not up in arms over this for three good reasons. The law will be struck down swiftly and with little effort on Constitutional grounds, and like all other states, Arizona is in no financial position to start arresting, housing, feeding, or paying for the transportation costs necessary to deport illegal immigrants.

I also doubt that very many of Arizona's law enforcement officers are going to spend their days and nights scouring the streets for illegal immigrants.

The objective by the state politicians who introduced and sponsored this asinine piece of legislation, as well as that of the Governor who signed it into law, was to endear themselves to the massive number of closeted racists who are under the misguided impression that the law is a pro-active step in cleansing their state of undesirables.

JohnnyRingo hit the nail on the head when he stated that Conservatives will cited the Constitution all day long, until it involves a pet peeve that will likely never target their lily-white posteriors.

April 25, 2010 at 11:51 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Good grief alprova you're like a broken record. I wasn't referencing Krentz specifically. There's are many others suffering at the hands of the border jumpers. If the feds were doing their job, this wouldn't be an issue.

The heinous act is allowing the borders to remain wide open. The only thing asinine I see here is your continued blather.

April 25, 2010 at 11:57 a.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Good grief alprova you're like a broken record. I wasn't referencing Krentz specifically. There's are many others suffering at the hands of the border jumpers."


Is that a fact? How many other ranchers down is south Arizona have been murdered, or anywhere else for that matter? None. This was a VERY isolated incident.

And let's face it. If you buy a home located next to the Gulf of Mexico, you can expect to deal with a hurricane or two every now and then.

When you buy a home and land bordering the Country of Mexico, depending on it's location, you can expect to deal with quite a few illegal immigrants, probably on a daily basis.

It goes with the territory.


"If the feds were doing their job, this wouldn't be an issue."


Uh huh...I see. What do you think it would cost to firmly secure the entire 1,954 miles of the southern border of this nation, year in and year out? You can't count that high.

Build a chain-link fence and a ten dollar set of wire cutters will allow anyone to pass through in a matter of minutes. Build a 20 foot wall and they will set up a 21 foot ladder and a piece of rope.

And on and on and on...


"The heinous act is allowing the borders to remain wide open. The only thing asinine I see here is your continued blather."


I humbly apologize if you happen to find a little common sense and lots of reality...irritating.

April 25, 2010 at 12:53 p.m.
Sailorman said...

If and when you show some common sense, I'll be happy to applaud you.

April 25, 2010 at 1:12 p.m.
Oz said...

If a U.S. citizen breaks the law, we are punished by the law. Why should we allow foreign citizens to break our laws and give them a path to citizenship?

We need a path to enforcing the immigration laws on the books. We don't need more immigration laws....We just need a President to enforce them.

Every President in my lifetime has ignored the law.

April 25, 2010 at 2:33 p.m.
EaTn said...

An former acquaintance of mine was brought to NC from Mexico when he was a toddler over twenty years ago, attended local schools and was ordained as a minister by a large church group. When he started to pastor a church, legalities slapped him in the face. The solution was to begin the process of legalization- the outcome was that he was threatened deportation. He only spoke broken Spanish, had little recollection of ever lived in Mexico and probably could not survive there. The last I heard he had moved to near the border where his face would blend in with the thousands like him.

My point is that by our legislation overlooking existing laws for years, we have created millions of illegals or their children who know only this country as home.

April 25, 2010 at 7:06 p.m.
alprova said...

Oz wrote: "If a U.S. citizen breaks the law, we are punished by the law. Why should we allow foreign citizens to break our laws and give them a path to citizenship?"


Because the laws are economically unenforceable. The last estimate, performed in 2007 put the illegal population in the U.S. at about 20.6 million folks. If every illegal immigrant were magically rounded up, the cost to just transporting each and every one of them to the border would come to around $206 BILLION dollars, or about $1,000 a head.

That would not include feeding them, housing them, nor paying for the legal processing costs required in each and every one of their cases prior to deportation. Those costs would at least double the above figure.

Do you know how many murder cases are put on hold because the states and municipalities cannot afford to fund the trials? A year and half ago in Atlanta, the Brian Nichols trial cost $13 MILLION dollars when all was said and done.

Do you think that Atlanta or the State of Georgia gives a hoot about illegal immigrants, or would spend a dime to round them up because there are Federal laws on the books that dictate that they are charged to do so?

How many additional officers would it take to go after illegal immigrants? State and local budgets, due to the current economy, are bleeding red ink. And with all this hoopla over taxes, it's a certainty that no one, especially those most opposed to illegal immigrants, is about to voluntarily cough up the dough it would take to begin to make a dent in reducing their numbers.

The estimated cost to to deport one illegal immigrant after their arrest, would come to $1,346.40 for each and every man, woman, and child who is currently a legal citizen of this nation. How many deportations would anyone be willing to sponsor by writing a check to the Government?

It makes far more sense to legitimize their presence and to allow them to continue contributing to society, don't you think?


"We need a path to enforcing the immigration laws on the books. We don't need more immigration laws....We just need a President to enforce them.

Every President in my lifetime has ignored the law."


After reading the above, are you sure that it's fair to blame any President for failing to take care of the situation?

April 25, 2010 at 8:14 p.m.
Oz said...

EaTn said.....My point is that by our legislation overlooking existing laws for years, we have created millions of illegals or their children who know only this country as home.

Would we legalize meth for a child born to a meth addict?

I am sympathetic but where would immigration legislation stop? Once we open the door, it will never close. I don't believe for one second, we will create a path for citizenship for illegal aliens currently in the country and then get tough at the borders. It will never happen.

Build a wall at the borders, give the military shoot to kill orders, and I might go along with a one time path to citizenship.

How many terrorists would get a path to citizenship? Immigration legislation will include every nationality in the world.

I have no problem with anyone coming to this country legally. They are obeying the law.

April 25, 2010 at 8:27 p.m.
moonpie said...

I think alprova is right in that what brings most illegals to America is the job market and a promise of higher wages.

However, that does not mean that many of them do not take advantage of government benefits.

I have worked in emergency rooms and other critical care areas of hospitals and it is not uncommon at all to have patients with two names: their real name and the other name on their insurance card - usually Medicaid.

That being said, I do not know the balance sheet on illegal immigration. I'm sure some pay into social security and will never see anything back.

Our food is cheap in part because of cheap labor. Our hotels are cheap in part because of cheap labor. The list goes on and on. We in the US want our cheap goods and services, but bemoan the manufacturing leaving the US for countries that can provide those goods for cheap.

We in the United States have to make some serious choices regarding Mexico. If we can promote Mexican prosperity, we might stem the tide. This is a slow process. NAFTA was supposed to fix this but it seems to have failed miserably.

So, right now it seems we're stuck between two impossible choices: shut down our borders and crack down on illegals or truly invest in our neighbor and embrace the sacrifices that will have to be made, i.e. to help Mexico become Canada.

The problem for folks in Arizona is that the latter policy is the more humane one but, in practicality, not one that Arizona can accomplish. Building Mexico is something no state in the US can do.

These are unseemly choices. "Papers please," harkens me to movies of Nazi Germany or Gorky Park.

In the end, I do believe that the same goals can be achieved short of profiling.

April 25, 2010 at 8:42 p.m.
Oz said...

alprova said....It makes far more sense to legitimize their presence and to allow them to continue contributing to society, don't you think?

No...The path would never end.

April 25, 2010 at 8:55 p.m.
Oz said...

alprova....you are right. A path to citizenship would probably work. We need to get all of the immigrants we can before they see the change in America.

April 25, 2010 at 9:23 p.m.
alprova said...

Oz wrote: "No...The path would never end."

As things stand today, there is no end. The reality of the situation is that for as long as there is the amount of difference that exists between the economies of this nation and those of the countries south of us, immigration is an absolute certainty.

The more pragmatic solution to resolving the issue would be to work with the Governments of those countries to raise wages and to create jobs for their citizens, so that they do not look towards the north to seek a better way of life.

Would it surprise you to learn that the current unemployment rate in Mexico is only 5.6%? In South America, it's a bit higher, but not any worse than it is here, with the exception of Columbia and Paraguay.

It's not that they cannot find jobs. It's that they can earn far more here. If they can manage to work here for a few years, they can go home and live rather well for many years to come.

So, until that situation is rectified in some manner, we're going to deal with illegal immigrants. It's just that simple.

April 25, 2010 at 9:40 p.m.
alprova said...

Here ya' go folks. This is the future;

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/az-truck-driver-forced-show-birth-certifica

This man was an Arizona resident.

And for the record, there has never been any requirement in any state in the Union, that truck drivers are required to provide a birth certificate to any law enforcement officer upon request.

Every licensed truck driver, along with his entire driving and employment history is on file in the CDLIS database, maintained in Washington D.C. This database was created immediately following 9/11.

Not only would he have been listed legitimately in their state licencing database, he would have been established in the CDLIS database, accessed in less than ten seconds per request.

If this crap continues or escalates, the entire retiree population in Arizona is going to pack up and leave. Tourism will absolutely nosedive.

But there is good news!! -- The makers of Chlorine related products are on track to have a good year...

April 25, 2010 at 10:15 p.m.

Robert Krentz was killed by an illegal. He had a recorded cell phone conversation with his brother as he was slumped over his steering wheel dying-he told his brother who it was and why. Border police found footprints leaving his truck and going over the nearby border path-back into Mexico.

Many people in Arizona, California, Texas and New Mexico (and other states as well), have been killed, tortured and/or robbed by Mexican and Central American thugs. All documented and most never reported in the Leftist MSM media that some above so stupidly rely on. Is it any wonder they continue to spout lies and nonsense.

Mexico has taken trillions of our dollars and dumped criminals, drug smugglers, cartels and Mexican Mafia onto our streets. The last Gov't down there, Vincente Fox's, printed brochures and maps showing their citizens how to get across the US border. There are more illegals than legal immigrants in LA County and other cities now. If I sneak across their borders in Mexico, I will be shot and killed or jailed until death as many Guatemalans and Salvadorans have discovered trying to enter Mexico, on the way to the US. Now just WHO is racist, mean and unfair? Man, you people need your heads checked and your ideologies examined. Who are the real enemies now in America? Look in the mirror.

April 26, 2010 at 12:52 a.m.

US citizens' children, teenagers, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, and uncles have been raped, robbed and/or murdered-all over the country by criminals found to be here illegally. Mexico's own innocent citizens and police, journalsts and legal workers have been assassinated, tortured and beheaded by the same terrorists who walk the streets of America and ply their 'business'.

These are the ones we should target, arrest, jail and return to Mexico. That, unfortunately requires some profiling measures. Anyone with half a brain, which the above poster seems to be missing, realizes part of the police's operations in catching criminals, uses profiling methods. No matter what race or religion or gender one happens to be. That's part of their job and how criminals are apprehended. Arizona's Governor wants the police to be properly trained and will not tolerate abuses of the law, as it should be. In Mexico or any other country, as an American, YOU will be profiled too, count on it.

If and when their countries are willing to fix their own problems and stop their corruptions, then maybe there will be progress in dealing with their economic problems. Otherwise, forget it. It will always be America's fault despite the fact America has done more than any other country or entity to 'help' cure their problems. Like all Progressive policies do, throwing money at these Gov'ts has never worked and has created more corruption, not less.

You geniuses who want to sit in your little towers and spout off about "white racists" need your butts thrown into a prison with Mexico's worst and find out what the face of REAL racism looks and feels like. Be our guest, our prisons are 30% + filled with your 'friends' and the ones south of the border would be happy to have you. Patheticos.

April 26, 2010 at 12:55 a.m.
nucanuck said...

A credit based economy requires continuing growth for debts to be repaid.

What does that have to do with illegal immigration? Quite alot it would appear. Politicians of both stripes won't tell you that most,if not all of the GDP growth of the last decade would disappear if we subtract the economic impact of the influx of illegal immigration. That's the dirty little secret;illegal immigration has been a boon to the US economy.

That doesn't make it right,but it helps us understand another dimension of the problem and why there will be no mass expulsion. The best we can hope for would be a better system to ensure that undocumented workers cannot secure work,combined with some form of amnesty for those already here.

So far,we lack the political will to make that happen.

Arizona's frustration is easy to understand.

April 26, 2010 at 1:17 a.m.

It's no "dirty little secret' for those of us who lived for years in border states where the economy temporarily boomed while Lib-Progs ran the roost, hired illegals like drunken, happy sailors and got richer themselves. And then the boom busted and plunged into a hellish nightmare thereafter. Why? Because like all corruptions of man/woman and governments, your sins and stupidities have a nice way of catching up with you. Just wait, your turn (and Obama's, Pelosi's and Reid's et al) will come.

April 26, 2010 at 2:23 a.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "Many people in Arizona, California, Texas and New Mexico (and other states as well), have been killed, tortured and/or robbed by Mexican and Central American thugs."


Look around you. There are far more domestically birthed, and home grown criminals who have been convicted of the same crimes, most of whom are pure bred Caucasians. In 2007, the last year that full data was compiled, white, non-Hispanic adults accounted for 61.1 percent of all adults arrested for violent crimes and 68.7 percent of all adults arrested for property crimes.

That comes straight from the Criminal Justice Information website.


"You geniuses who want to sit in your little towers and spout off about "white racists" need your butts thrown into a prison with Mexico's worst and find out what the face of REAL racism looks and feels like."


And I suppose you have experienced this alleged Mexican racism first-hand? Yeah...right. Sure you have.

Boy...that Christianity that you hold near and dear is sure shining today.

To read your extremely irrational diatribe up there, it would appear that you think that every last illegal immigrant was a violent criminal seeking out his next victim.

You bemoan the fact that illegal immigrants turn to crime without considering the fact that our own citizens do the same thing, and in outrageously higher numbers.

To read what you have to offer, you'd think that if we were to deport every illegal immigrant, that crime would magically disappear.

Thank-you so much for proving just how illogical and irrational that some people can be when it comes to this issue.


"...our prisons are 30% + filled with your 'friends' and the ones south of the border would be happy to have you."


Lou Dobbs was the first person to utter that nonsensical statistic. It has NEVER been true, but there is no shortage of illegal immigration opponents who have repeated that astoundingly unfounded and unsupported number.

The REAL percentage of illegal aliens in our prison system, who by the way always have a INS hold placed on them the minute they incarcerated and are picked up by the INS the minute they are released, as of 2009, is around 10.7 percent.

I always find it amazing that people will spend their time reading wild accusations written on websites by people with no credibility whatsoever, while never, ever going to credible sources of information to discover the facts.

The unfortunate thing is that inaccurate sources often outnumber those that do offer facts, so it's easy to understand why it is that so many people will believe what they read, even if is baseless. And of course, people are far more willing to believe inaccurate information, if it happens to support and justify their equally inaccurate opinions.

April 26, 2010 at 3:18 a.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "It's no "dirty little secret' for those of us who lived for years in border states where the economy temporarily boomed while Lib-Progs ran the roost, hired illegals like drunken, happy sailors and got richer themselves."

You know, that's the second time you have made that outrageous statement.

Do you have any proof whatsoever to justify your silly assertion that employers anywhere in this nation who have hired illegal immigrants are all Liberal/Progressive? Not a chance.

I thought it was a well known fact that the overwhelming majority of people in business support Republicans.

Oh...I get it -- It's only Democrats who own businesses that have ever hired illegal immigrants.

Oh brother...where the heck are my hip-waders? It's getting deep out here.

April 26, 2010 at 3:30 a.m.
dougmusn said...

I believe the police should be sued to enforce this law ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY. "Suspicion of being illegal" should rightly fall to anyone who is not clearly of Anasazi, Apache or Native American stock. After all, only the Native Americans are not now and have never been immigrants (unless you count crossing the Bering Sea ice bridge tens of thousands of years ago).

Stop enough of us lily-whites for papers (sorry, OllieH, no security in THAT color) and the howls will rightly rip the statute from the books. Then, we might be able to address meaningful and effective non-racist immigration reform.

April 26, 2010 at 6:39 a.m.
nucanuck said...

alprova,save your sentient responses for those that can evaluate and reason. canary has shown,time and again,an inability to process and distill information in a balanced way. Hate factors and blind spots have rendered that bird defective.

April 26, 2010 at 9:46 a.m.
dunkziy said...

I am a legal immigrant. I have no problem being stopped and required to prove my legitimacy and I don't see why anyone else should. If you are here illegally, then you should apply for a working visa and follow the process like anyone else should or leave.

If we suddenly find that we need those workers, then we could issue working visas for those that deserve it rather than ignoring the issue and pretending that it's not something we can do anything about and turn them in to criminals.

April 26, 2010 at 11:10 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Well I have been reading all these post and can see many good views from both sides of the coin.

Like Alprova, I can see that enforcing any immigration laws will be difficult at best and very costly. These folks are here (for the most part) to make a better life for themselves and their families. However, it should be done legally as we all know and I think even Alprova would agree to that.

But unlike Alprova, I believe if the menial jobs that are so often done by illegals were available, I know that there would be many of us "lily-whites" lining up for these jobs even without benefits especially in an economy like this one. The biggest problem is with the employers that don't want to claim these workers to the government so they pay under the table. I for one have had menial jobs and been paid this way before when I needed work. The reason our presidents have ignored this is because it is such a complex problem with extremely complex solutions.

I have lived in a border town in Texas and saw first hand the illegals crossing over. Some of these do commit crimes but the majority are simply trying to make it to “freedom”. I have friends who own large ranches who, rather than be ravaged by the illegals, would set up a small cabin out in a tree thicket for the illegals to rest in on their voyage. Yes occasionally they would have something missing such as goats, sheep or cattle but these times were rare.

I for one am emotionally torn on this issue but would lean toward enforcing the law, even the new one in Arizona. As dunkziy stated, he would not have a problem with it because he did it legally. Thank you for that post.

And they do end up costing us on many of the social programs. There are many children born to illegals that must be insured by Medicaid. And when many of these have not had prenatal care because the parents are illegal and don’t have insurance, the babies end up with problems. This allows them to file for SSI so that more of our tax dollars are used without more coming in since the parents are illegal.

April 26, 2010 at 11:48 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

nurse, this is a good post. Although one can't lay the blame at the feet of any one party, this is one aspect that cannot be ignored. I can't help but thinking that this may be the reason why so many manufacturing jobs have gone overseas. If the company doesn't have to provide OSHA level safety, benefits and a competitive wage, there are financial advantages to moving to a third world country. Likewise, if companies know that undocumented workers will not sue, claim safety violations are occurring, demand benefits, or unionize, they will continue to hire illegals instead of citizens protected by the law. Of course, unions themselves may be partially responsible for making American workers too costly, but that's another subject.

April 26, 2010 at 2:42 p.m.
whoknows said...

Agree completely with Nurse and lkeith. We have done this to ourselves... and politicians ignoring it for so long has made it exponentially worse.

And even if Al's numbers he quoted are true (which is always questionable coming from him) it would still cost less to deport all illegal immigrants than many of the useless bills recently passed by our equally useless congress and president.

April 26, 2010 at 3:29 p.m.
nucanuck said...

Ikeithlu,

In my wife's former business the advantage of immigrant labor was dependability. The typical entry level unskilled job ($10 or less) was considered a throw-away job by most applicants except the immigrants. They valued the job,worked hard,never missed work,and would send a sub if an emergency arose.

The result was racial profiling in favor of Hispanic labor.

They all had the necessary paperwork,but I doubt they were all legal. They have learned how to game the system and they teach each new arrival.

We need willing workers,but we definitly need to control the borders. Congress is afraid of the political fallout so they dither.

April 26, 2010 at 4:24 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"In my wife's former business the advantage of immigrant labor was dependability. The typical entry level unskilled job ($10 or less) was considered a throw-away job by most applicants except the immigrants. They valued the job,worked hard,never missed work,and would send a sub if an emergency arose."

I have certainly seen this, both workers with documentation and likely illegals. They are hard, honest workers. I do agree that we need to control borders. I'm not sure how, or whether racial profiling is the answer. I'm not saying one way or the other, but it makes me uncomfortable.

April 26, 2010 at 4:27 p.m.
Sailorman said...

I have to agree that, on average, especially in labor intensive jobs, Hispanic workers I've had were more reliable than American hires regardless of color. I did my best to verify their status but, as NC pointed out, they know the game well.

Will it lead to profiling? Maybe, even probably. The stage is certainly set for it. The claim will be made regardless. On the other hand, few, if any, illegal immigrants are blond Norwegians.

If nothing else, this bill has given Al Sharpton et al another soapbox (which he is already using as hard as he can). Maybe it will goad Washington into actually addressing the problem after it gets tired of bemoaning the horrible thing Arizona has done. We can only hope and, in the meantime, be bombarded by the talking heads of all stripes ad nauseum.

April 26, 2010 at 5:50 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Building a barrier is one issue and immigration is another. Do not combine the two. Build the barrier first. Arizona's law mirrors the Federal Law but the Fed's won't enforce the law because it will be political suicide for the Democrats. (benefits for votes) I would come across the border too if I knew nothing would happen to me. I would make money, pay taxes, and then sent my disposable income back to Mexico making that government very happy. It is well documented the burden the illegals have caused on the State budgets throughtout the Country:

In 2007 the immigrant population (legal and illegal) was 37.9 million. They acount for 1 in 8 of US residents. One out of three is illegal and half are from Mexico and Central America 31% of adult immigrants have not completd high school compared to 8 % of natives 33% of them use some type of welfare service compared to 19% of native house holds Immigration accounts for virtually all of the national increase in public school enrollment over the last two decades. In 2007, there were 10.8 million school-aged children from immigrant families.

The big cause of all of this is the 1965 Hart-Celler Act signed by President Lyndon Johnson. No more national quotas, big mistake.

In the 60's even Cesar Chavez (UFW Union) vehmently opposed illegal immigration.

We should embrace legal immigration that gives us the best, the brightest, the hardest workers, who are not here for a handout, who wants to simulate into or our culture, embrace our culture, while we celebrate theirs. There is Social Justice and Equal Justice and guess which one is not in our Constitution.

April 26, 2010 at 6:57 p.m.
alprova said...

whoknows wrote: "...And even if Al's numbers he quoted are true (which is always questionable coming from him)..."

Anytime someone has come up with proof that ANYTHING I post of a factual nature was incorrect, I have immediately acknowledged it and apologized for the error. I did so just yesterday in another thread where I was careless.

I don't expect ANYONE to EVER take my word as Gospel. I always welcome anyone to challenge me on any fact I ever offer. I urge anyone desiring to learn the facts surrounding any issue of importance to them, to seek those facts until they are satisfied that they are getting the truth.

The figures I quoted were derived straight from a Government study performed in 2007 on the subject of illegal immigration and costs associated to remove illegal immigrants from the U.S. I have tried in vain in the last hour to find the .pdf file posted online so that I could link to it, but unfortunately that particular link was not cached in my browser history for some reason.

I don't offer lies or embellish figures to make points. Why would I do so if evidence to the contrary would expose such offered facts to be lies?

April 26, 2010 at 9:48 p.m.
Clara said...

Alprova, that CrooksandLiars Blog was an eye opener. Thanks! I feel a bit more educated. There were over 250 comments made.

If someone will pay my way and give me room and board, I'd be quite willing to go to Arizona and observe first hand.

As on this blog, C&L had a lot of good comments from the political spectrum. It claims to be liberal.

I think I go along with the persons who suggested that those who knowingly hired illegals be fined for each day the illegals worked.

Come to think of it, this might pay for the ER visits, schooling,and housing and other benefits the illegals are purported to take advantage of.

There are so many facets to this problem, I'm hesitant to voice a comment on just one of them.

April 26, 2010 at 10:30 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Al

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2007/12/5/the_dubious_mr_dobbs

"On March 28, 2006, Dobbs said on his show, “And it’s costing us, no one knows precisely how much, to incarcerate what is about a third of our prison population who are illegal aliens.” As it turns out, the number of non citizens incarcerated in the U.S. federal and state prisons is closer to 6 percent, not 33 percent. Note that the 6 percent includes legal immigrants as well."

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05337r.pdf

This study was published in 2005. If you can find the one from 2007, I'd love to see that it indeed shows an improving situation. (Did you mean to say 2007 not 2009?)

"At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about 49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004—a 15 percent increase. The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years—about 27 percent."

The GAO says the Federal level alone was about 27%. I didn't scour the state data but it's in the report. We can discuss who included non-citizens and who didn't and whether differing report years are in play but that would be beating a dead horse - unless you think the GAO is wrong.

April 26, 2010 at 10:56 p.m.

Well, this site's Grand Poobah Liar continues with his spinning of facts he knows nothing of-especially as he and the N-Schmuck (as most who posted here) have either never lived in a border state, or haven't recently. I gave facts that are easily accessed and easily seen with one's own eyes. Unless of course, like the spinners of the truth often do, you are prone to cover your own failings with more lies. Reality and truth aren't these geniuses long suit, that's been evident for quite awhile. (BTW, if I were doing business with these Fantasy Land spinners, I would immediately go elsewhere and boycott their businesses. Liars and cheats have never made good deals and never operate ethically).

Here's what I actually said, among other, factual statements: Arizonans, Californians and other citizens in border states where violence, beheadings and smuggling of drugs/humans is rampant, have the right and the say-so how they want their states run AND to enforce our existing laws. California has been run into the ground, a perfect example of just HOW illegal immigration and all the problems that ensued does NOT work, ever. BTW, the filthy rich Liberals/Leftists in that state just love to have their low-paid illegal slave labor. They could care less, the middle class and their jobs are pretty well dead and gone now.

That was for those who continue to lie and spread misinformation, like 'Republicans and Capitalists hire illegals and abuse/misuse them'..we've all heard that ad nauseum. The illegal prison population in California was over 30%, Lou Dobbs wasn't the first to read the stats, Californians and others have known that for years. That mirrors the national percentage, yet depending on the year, could be much more right now. Then again, Schwarzennegger released thousands of criminals from his prisons due to inability to pay for their upkeep. That would be a wonderful way to decrease your state's prison population stats. Put them out so the public is left to deal with the problems. Another failed, Progressive-Left policy.

April 27, 2010 at 5:15 a.m.

dunkziy: no one here in the US has to "turn illegals into criminals", I and millions of others have seen with our own eyes, in our neighborhoods, people CHOOSING to break our laws after breaking the first one when they came across. We didn't refuse to give jobs to the Mexican Mafia, they came as many criminals have, already having their 'business' in place.

(and again), I will state, any genius here who wants to call me a racist or whatever the Progressive flavor of the day might be, get a life. My family is multi-racial, all immigrants, all documented, all obey the laws of the land, many have served in the military. I have lived, worked and taught immigrants, given the shirt off my back many times, donated time, money and tears to help those who really want to help themselves. I know many conservative Americans who do the same. I am NOT a perfect Christian and never said I was, have many friends and colleagues from just about every race and ethnic group, from around this world, friends who are immigrants and appreciate this great country that gave them the opportunity to succeed and better their lives. Like I said earlier, our real enemies seem to be right here under our noses, their evil carping and undermining of our Constitution a daily occurrence.

When any of you up there have to live with the border folks and in the ghettos and actually witness the myriad crimes (BTW Nurse, you need to talk to Californian, Arizonan and Texan ranchers and farmers today, as well as thousands of citizens who have been the fallout for illegal crimes, home invasions, property damage and worth plummeting, etc.), that are increasing exponentially, then we might find you believable. Until then, N and Alpie can save their useless insults. They frequently do that because they have no truth to counter the evidence of Reality. They spout from the vile fountain of fantasies, somewhere in the land of the Dimmies.

April 27, 2010 at 5:23 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

canary, how about dealing specifically with items you disagree with in others' posts, rather than a wholesale rant against everything not conservative and everyone not like you? People are not attributing this situation to just one cause, for example the hiring of illegals. It's a complicated problem that requires a complicated solution. Your posts imply that you think that everyone here illegally is in the mafia. Many who come commit crimes, yes, but not all. Perhaps you can give us your opinion on how to solve it? Will racial profiling do it, or is more needed? A wall along the border? Snipers? How about jailing business owners who hire illegals? Especially when false documents are used, a business owner in good faith may hire illegals without knowing it.

Rather than continually offering a wholesale slam of everyone on this blog that thinks differently, why not offer up some solutions? You obviously have some knowledge, but your rants are tiresome and accomplish little.

April 27, 2010 at 7:46 a.m.
BobMKE said...

Solution:

Build the entire wall.

Fine the businesses that hire the illegals. (Illegals will just return home because there is no work here)

Repeal the 1965 Hart-Celler Act.

Grant more visas for the seasonal workers and pay them a decent wage.

Work with hispanic agencies(the ones who are proud to be here, want to work hard, respect the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and DO NOT WANT TO TAKE OVER the southwestern United States and return it to Mexico) create programs so hispanics can better simulate into our culture.

Enforce the Federal Laws so the States do not have to.

April 27, 2010 at 8:34 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

By the way Canary, I never said I agreed with what my rancher friends did, I was only stating the way it was when I was there.

I think BobMKE has some good ideas for starters.

April 27, 2010 at 9:02 a.m.
Sailorman said...

I'm all for the fence especially if I get to build some of it!

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09244r.pdf

Seventy-one of the miles completed as of September 30, 2007, were pedestrian fencing completed at costs ranging from $400,000 to $4.8 million per mile and averaging $2.8 million per mile.

WOW

April 27, 2010 at 9:09 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

I used to work along side Latinos quite often, and can attest to the comments above. They are hard working and know how to play the game, and the vast majority are illegal (at least the ones I have known). My beef with them is that not only do they hold these jobs, but they really work us for our money. They will live 15-20 to a house here in the states and send most of their (our) money back to their country/families where it is worth more.

I knew one man who came in on a work visa, but when it expired, he stayed with us for 5 more years illegally before returning to his newly built mansion in Guatamala. He was by no means wealthy when he first entered our country and it showed in the constant excitement on his face in his last few weeks before leaving.

It would be interesting to see just how many US dollars are being held/spent within the borders of foreign countries, which were taken from us by illegal means (whether earned this way or via drug cartels).

April 27, 2010 at 9:35 a.m.

Nurse: right, I got that. I did not mean to include you as being uninformed, like many above. I wanted to let the readers know that things have changed for the worse in the last few years alone. My apologies to you for the misunderstanding.

BobMke is right on again about solutions re: the immigrant issue. Conservatives, Repubs and myself have often stated commonsense solutions that fall on deaf ears. What we're seeing in Arizona is last minute (better late than never) solutions to a major problem that should have been attended to when Janet Napolitano was Governor and Bush (or Bush Sr. or Clinton...) was President. California kept spending and spending on illegals, pushing taxpaying citizens and War vets out of the way for social services and hospital beds. I saw, lived and worked with that reality everyday for years. Now, the State and the people are paying dearly for their inertia and stupidity.

One thing I would add is that Bob's last couple of suggestions have already been tried (before, during and after WWII). I've worked with and spoken with many elderly Hispanic men who remember those days. Many of them, contrary to Cesar Chavez's grape pickers, were treated well and came back year after year to work in the seasonal jobs. They were paid little but at the time were glad for it. Recently, the State of CA (And Federal Gov't?) repaid them and their children over and above their back wages-a fair lump sum to compensate for not being paid enough during the war. What other country or people would do that?

The problem today is that we have a very, bloated Bureaucracy of humans that only look after their own self-interests. For example, the visa/seasonal program could again easily work, yet no Bureaucrat will get off his or her buttocks to implement it (in concert with the Mexican/Central American Gov'ts).

The other problem is, until a couple of years ago, there were 'Visa workers' offices placed in Mexico at or near the US border. The idea was that our Gov't was supposed to collaborate with the Visa offices to hire the needed workers and pay for their transport and housing while in the US. Never got off the ground because when strong-arm thugs and cartels found out, they started to murder and decapitate the Mexican Gov't Officials who worked at the Visa Offices. The thugs also intimidated the locals and threatened their lives if they applied. Now it seems, the Cartels have thousands of willing new recruits, human and drug smugglers who desperately want a job. Cartels ARE the reason for creating violence and need to be stopped.

Why our Gov't and Mexico's, with zillions of US dollars and armies behind them can't fix the mess? Someone answer that $64,000 question, we can't seem to.

April 27, 2010 at 10:38 a.m.

Ike: stuff a rag in your mouth and pull the cotton outta your ears. You selectively read what you want and discard the rest. As I have pointed out to you ad infinitum, you do not read or comprehend. I have on many occasions offered not only experience, which some of you have none of, but many a solution.

The Progressive concrete in some heads just keeps on impeding them from truly understanding and THAT, I can do nothing about. Do you hear now?! The atheistic mind and the religious mind are worlds apart and never the twain shall meet.

April 27, 2010 at 10:44 a.m.

Recap (using obvious logical-brain sequences to discern the meaning of) solutions and lack of:

From above posting: US citizens' children, teenagers, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, and uncles have been raped, robbed and/or murdered-all over the country by criminals found to be here illegally. Mexico's own innocent citizens and police, journalists and legal workers have been assassinated, tortured and beheaded by the same terrorists who walk the streets of America and ply their 'business'.

These are the ones we should target, arrest, jail and return to Mexico. That, unfortunately requires some profiling measures. Anyone with half a brain, realizes part of the police's operations in catching criminals, uses profiling methods. No matter what race or religion or gender one happens to be. That's part of their job and how criminals are apprehended. Arizona's Governor wants the police to be properly trained and will not tolerate abuses of the law, as it should be. In Mexico or any other country, as an American, YOU will be profiled too, count on it.

If and when their countries are willing to fix their own problems and stop their corruptions, then maybe there will be progress in dealing with their economic problems. Otherwise, forget it. It will always be America's fault despite the fact America has done more than any other country or entity to 'help' cure their problems. Like all Progressive policies do, throwing money at these Gov'ts has never worked and has created more corruption, not less.

So the logical conclusion might be: do the opposite of the failed, short-sighted, inane and insane policies of Left-Progressives in Government. Respect our Constitution, our laws and States rights. Send the law-breakers packing.

I gave plenty of on-the-ground realities and facts, necessary to counter the nebulous lies of the Left and their pock-marked websites, blogs and misinformation Leaders. THOSE sites and entities will NEVER provide the American public with all the truth and all the facts. I consider it my patriotic duty to fill in the gaps. And plenty there are, unfortunately. Plenty of gaps in the old synapses out there come to think of it.

April 27, 2010 at 11:05 a.m.
Clara said...

I found the "Center for Immigration Studies" (CIS), I found an article dated 1986.

http://www.cis.org/AmericanLaborMarket%2526Immigration

The CIS is up-to-date, however, so you might find something usable for the present situation.

I have already spent 2 hours of my valuable time dealing with CTFP, waiting for pages to clear or refresh.

One of these days...I might get High Speed Internet.

Canary, why do you persist in your inane generalities and attacks?

April 27, 2010 at 11:26 a.m.

Clara, if you have an original thought or opinion of your own, please let us know. Now, look in the mirror and give yourself your own, biased advice.

Have a nice day, poor lady.

April 27, 2010 at 11:39 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"The Progressive concrete in some heads just keeps on impeding them from truly understanding and THAT, I can do nothing about. Do you hear now?! The atheistic mind and the religious mind are worlds apart and never the twain shall meet."

canary, Where, pray tell, did religion come into this thread?

And where have you offered some solutions instead of just criticisms? We are well aware that problems across the border make any law enforcement at our end meaningless. What do YOU see as a solution?

April 27, 2010 at 12:28 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Sometimes Clay posts. Wouldn't it be nice if Clay, the Social Democrat, would respond to these fantastic posts and entertain us with his wisdom? I really don't think he has a response because we have made some great common sense arguments to this issue. CLAAAAAAAY, you hear us????

April 27, 2010 at 1:25 p.m.
dunkziy said...

@ canaryinthecoalmine

Sorry, I allowed myself to be misunderstood. I didn't mean to say that we make them into Criminals, they do indeed choose that for themselves. This practice has been ignored too long and we have sent them a message that it's ok if you can get away with it (cos we like cheap hard working labor), but if we bother to catch you, you are a criminal.

It's like the criminals who will commit many other crimes to cover the discovery of the first.

I guess workers are needed and employers will use them and if they can get away with it and don't get caught, they will continue doing so.

I also work for a staffing company and we only employ legal workers. we try our very best using the tools the US government provide to make sure that they are fully documented and follow the process to weed out the fraudulent applications, but many agencies and employers don't bother to or care to.

It's as though "Don't Ask, don't tell" is the uncommon rule.

April 27, 2010 at 2:11 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Al

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2007/12...

"On March 28, 2006, Dobbs said on his show, “And it’s costing us, no one knows precisely how much, to incarcerate what is about a third of our prison population who are illegal aliens.” As it turns out, the number of non citizens incarcerated in the U.S. federal and state prisons is closer to 6 percent, not 33 percent. Note that the 6 percent includes legal immigrants as well."

Of course the man made a correction in later years.

He first made the 30% claim in 2003. Here's the link to the transcript;

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/04/ldt.00.html


"At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about 49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004—a 15 percent increase. The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years—about 27 percent."

As you quoted, the 27% figure was derived from the FEDERAL Prison system.

Now, I'll not taint this by including any inmates in local jails, or counting their beds, because those facilities are transient and temporary in nature. I'll confine it to State prisons, Federal prisons, and ICE facilities.

The total number of inmates of all persuasion that are in State and Federal facilities numbers about 1.6 million inmates. The GAO estimated 48,000 illegal immigrants are incarcerated in Federal Prisons, and 74,000 in State Prisons. ICE facilities hold at any given time, another 10,000.

Let's say that there the number of criminal illegal immigrants being held in prison has gone up 30 percent. I think we can agree that it's a reasonable figure considering the massive influx of illegal immigrants since 2003 or 2004.

We're now up to 171,600 illegal immigrants who are estimated to be currently incarcerated in prison facilities. That's 10.7% any way you slice it or dice it.

I would hope that you would agree that ONLY counting those prisoners in FEDERAL prison is quite deceptive. There are far more in STATE prisons, and they certainly deserve to be counted and contrasted to the overall prison population across America.

April 27, 2010 at 7:55 p.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "Well, this site's Grand Poobah Liar continues with his spinning of facts he knows nothing of-especially as he and the N-Schmuck (as most who posted here) have either never lived in a border state, or haven't recently."


And neither have you. I did live in Tuscon, Arizona for five years, admittedly several years ago. It's why I have a very HIGH opinion of Hispanics.

Your credibility is less than zero, so don't think your calling me a liar bothers me a bit. I back up what I say. You and your hubby have always refused to do so.


"My family is multi-racial, all immigrants, all documented, all obey the laws of the land,...blah blah blah..."


Yep...every time someone takes a negative racial stance, the claims of being of the particular race, or having someone in their family who is of the race, etc., is dragged out and taken around the dance floor.

I don't believe and I doubt very many others do.


"Clara, if you have an original thought or opinion of your own, please let us know. Now, look in the mirror and give yourself your own, biased advice.

Have a nice day, poor lady."


Said the dude or dudette who never offers an original thought, and in fact has posted many of those regurgitated idioms three times in this thread alone.

But you just go on thinkin' that you told me off, put me in my place, and believe that you scored any other points for picking on a senior citizen.

April 27, 2010 at 8:12 p.m.
Clara said...

Al, I've adjusted to being a senior citizen. I've heard worse and been falsly accused and suspected...although I can claim a wicked streak sometimes. Actually, I'm around 19, mentally. Too bad the rest of me isn't.

Let her/him rant. She/he sure could get me on my typos.

I want to know what other ludicrous and laughable slurs he/she can produce without being barred.

C:-)

April 27, 2010 at 10:07 p.m.
alprova said...

For some reason, that person just doesn't seem to like you Clara, despite the fact that you are indeed on top of your game.

I'm glad to read that you are not bothered by it at all.

April 28, 2010 at 2:31 a.m.

"Yep...every time someone takes a negative racial stance"... Well the Grand Lying Assumer did it again. You're one sick, twisted dude aren't ya? I am most definitely NOT taking any racial or racist perspective and I have much proof that I have lived in the border states. That is classic Left-Prog intimidation tactics you employ.

I could care less whether proven liars as yourself believe me or not, Are you busy NOW helping out minorities and Hispanics in particular, as many of us conservatives are/have? Doubt it. You elite trash talkers talk the big talk and then never deliver the goods. You obscure truth and facts by ranting at me and putting down my family? How pathetic you are.

You don't like "regurgitated" items? Those are in answer to the other liars who LOVE to take our words out of context, like all Left-Progs are wont to do. BTW, ALL your posts are regurgitated, nonsensical bytes taken from biased sources. Extremely biased.

As for Miss Clara, she can hold her own and makes some pretty nasty remarks against Conservatives herself, as she has proven many times. If you can't take the heat...don't post on a public forum, simple. And how does anyone here know I am not a senior myself? And so what if I am-or not? Disabled? Does that give someone a special status? Does anyone know 100% that Clara is who she claims to be? I show no favor to rich or poor-old or young, male or female. If you make stupid or lying remarks on this forum, you will be accountable at some time or another.

Man, your stupidity and perverted ways expose you every time you post. Pathetico.

April 28, 2010 at 4:37 a.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: ""Yep...every time someone takes a negative racial stance"... Well the Grand Lying Assumer did it again. You're one sick, twisted dude aren't ya? I am most definitely NOT taking any racial or racist perspective and I have much proof that I have lived in the border states."


Do you think that it makes one iota of difference if you have lived in any border state? Do you think it makes any difference if you are Hispanic or have 50 family members who are Hispanic?

You can't avoid the charge that your extreme opposition and intensely inflammatory comments are not racially motivated. We're talking about a race of people that you feel should be ejected from this country.

If you are so adamant that these people need to go, I'd suggest that you pack up your belongings, make your way to the border and stand guard.


"You elite trash talkers talk the big talk and then never deliver the goods. You obscure truth and facts by ranting at me and putting down my family? How pathetic you are."


First of all, you really need to look up the definition of the word "elite." Then, you might want to take your own advice and demonstrate the courage of your own convictions.


"Are you busy NOW helping out minorities and Hispanics in particular, as many of us conservatives are/have?"


Oh yeah...folks much like yourself, who call themselves "Conservatives," showed their compassion and care, by passing the very law that we are discussing. Not one Democrat in the State of Arizona voted in favor of it's passage and every Republican absolutely voted for it's passage.

Yep...it's really "helping Hispanics" by targeting them due to their skin color, forcing them to show their papers, and if found to be illegal, to arrest them, try them, then shove them on a bus to then dump them at the Mexican border with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

I'm quite sure that they will write a nice little letter of thanks to all the compassionate Conservatives when they get resettled somewhere, if they live through the experience that is.

Do you really believe the crap you are shoveling? Hold on...I need to go find a triple axle dump truck.

April 28, 2010 at 6:48 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Once again canary you offer no solutions, only attacks. You did not address my questions above regarding YOUR post:

"The Progressive concrete in some heads just keeps on impeding them from truly understanding and THAT, I can do nothing about. Do you hear now?! The atheistic mind and the religious mind are worlds apart and never the twain shall meet."

canary, Where, pray tell, did religion come into this thread?

And where have you offered some solutions instead of just criticisms? We are well aware that problems across the border make any law enforcement at our end meaningless. What do YOU see as a solution?

You did the same thing on the Earth Day thread, where I asked you specific questions. You dodged them and never returned. You clearly have ideas (or at least you say you do) but refuse to articulate them, choosing instead to attack me and others on things completely unrelated to the discussion (like my religious beliefs).

Not that your drive-bys are illegal, but it does nothing to build any credibility, nor does it offer any useful information. If you are so smart, educate us miserable, stupid liberals.

April 28, 2010 at 7:17 a.m.

ike& alpie: you're a lost cause. Answer your own pap, it's all over your faces.

For the real news, truth and facts don't consult the above, read the Arizona bill (law) yourselves. It has nothing to do with "profiling" and "racism". Also, read many alternative sources in order to discover the Dems in Arizona and in the WH/both Houses are whipping up their ignorant base and inciting them to riot, protest and slam a law none of them have bothered to read. While you're at it, watch the news videos we did of the nice, legal, law-abiding, Democratic/Left protestors in Arizona, throwing rocks at the police and at nearby property/cars, carrying signs demanding their "Rights" and generally causing mayhem.

Now, with all this going on, isn't this a lovely little distraction to pass an immigration reform bill in time for the 2010 or 2012 elections when all these law-abiding people will have status and be able to vote-for guess who? Yep, the Party of Saul Alinsky's proteges, the New American Regime.

April 28, 2010 at 10:25 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Yep, another canary post, with nothing in the way of answers to posed questions. Just more anger and insults.

April 28, 2010 at 12:53 p.m.

Doncha just love the hypocritical, eugenicist, over-population crowd above that on other postings has touted "something has to be done about the earth's horrible over-population", (a la the ideology of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong-il, Margaret Sanger et al)?

Yet, when it comes to our own beleaguered borders where US citizens of all races are under attack (and fed up with the crimes and the criminals coming across), these geniuses above preach: Open borders! Let them in! They are just innocent people who need jobs! Amnesty! Americans, especially Arizonans are a bunch of racists!

Obviously, they don't and haven't read the legislation, don't live there in Reality, don't care that their 'poor victims' are 99.9% Catholic and won't use birth control, don't care that Sheriffs in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California have cited stats that (in Arizona alone=75-90%) show what percentage coming across NOW are criminals and Cartels.

Naaah, none of that matters as long as they obey the propaganda their Masters are feeding them. And continue bashing the American "racists", using all the typical code-speak to vilify us so the Agenda can continue uninterrupted. Trouble is schmucks, plenty of us have your number. Your time will come too, when the rest of the dimmies in America wake up, you guys are Toast. I look forward to that day frankly. The wrath of the Lord be upon you for all the evil you preach and for your plentiful hypocrisies.

April 29, 2010 at 9:50 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"Doncha just love the hypocritical, eugenicist, over-population crowd above that on other postings has touted "something has to be done about the earth's horrible over-population", (a la the ideology of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Jong-il, Margaret Sanger et al)?"

So, you are saying that we should be fruitful and multiply until many starve? Because clearly you think family planning is eugenics and birth control is genocide.

April 29, 2010 at 5 p.m.
alprova said...

Canary whined with: "Obviously, they don't and haven't read the legislation, don't live there in Reality..."


You keep making this accusation knowing that you are no more nearer to the scene than those of us who differ in opinion from yourself.

One does not have to live there to know the facts. You seem to forget that this area, where you live right now, has experienced a massive influx of illegal immigrants, and yet we're not seeing all this criminal activity that you keep harping about that you would love to attribute strictly to illegal immigrants.


"...don't care that their 'poor victims' are 99.9% Catholic and won't use birth control..."


Oh for pete sake, there are far more home grown rapists in this nation and you know it. Illegal Immigrants are no more likely to rape anyone than you are. You're trying to beat a horse skeleton back to life.


"...don't care that Sheriffs in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California have cited stats that (in Arizona alone=75-90%) show what percentage coming across NOW are criminals and Cartels."


Not that you could begin to back up the above with anything that would be credible, anyone at all who would make such a statement is of the same caliber as yourself and just as laughably racist.

Step back in time 40 years, and substitute a word that was used to describe African-Americans back then, and the negatives are very much alike. The hatred is the same. You should be ashamed of yourself.


"And continue bashing the American "racists", using all the typical code-speak to vilify us so the Agenda can continue uninterrupted."


Oh...you mean the agenda to have compassion for people who are merely trying to provide for their families?

Your chances of being a victim of a violent crime by a born citizen of the United States of America is far greater.


"Trouble is schmucks, plenty of us have your number. Your time will come too, when the rest of the dimmies in America wake up, you guys are Toast."


Hold your breath.


"The wrath of the Lord be upon you for all the evil you preach and for your plentiful hypocrisies."


Why don't you try speaking on behalf of someone you know?

April 29, 2010 at 6:36 p.m.
alprova said...

Canary, it's time for a Bible lesson, since you claim to know and are inclined to speak on behalf of the Lord.

I don't suppose you have ever read;

"Leviticus 19:33-34 (New International Version)

33 When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.

34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."

April 29, 2010 at 6:44 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Al

Everything you said is true (well except maybe the last thing - I wouldn't know).

Be that as it may, illegal immigrants, undocumented workers or however you refer to them are breaking our laws by simply being here. Arizona's law is supposedly modeled after Federal law - don't know for sure and don't really care. Washington abdicated. Either enforce the law or change it. How open should our borders be?

lkeithlu

Global war served a purpose. Since I'm too old to go, maybe we need a couple more. I think over population, barring some, or multiple, disaster of catastrophic proportion, will eventually do us in.

April 29, 2010 at 6:53 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

What a dismal prediction of the future, sailorman. You'd think that in the 21st century we would be beyond accepting war, disease and famine as the only way to keep our numbers down.

My apologies for jumping threads. This probably belongs in the earth day cartoon thread.

April 29, 2010 at 7:08 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Alprova states "One does not have to live there to know the facts. You seem to forget that this area, where you live right now, has experienced a massive influx of illegal immigrants, and yet we're not seeing all this criminal activity that you keep harping about that you would love to attribute strictly to illegal immigrants."

Haven't been watching the news around here lately have you?

April 30, 2010 at 11:04 a.m.
alprova said...

Nurse wrote:"Haven't been watching the news around here lately have you?"

Of course I have.

If you are insinuating that crimes are being committed in higher numbers by illegal Hispanics than by Americans of any race, then feel free to post credible sources of some numbers.

For every case of violent crime involving a possible Illegal Immigrant, in most areas around here, there will be 7 or 8 crimes committed by a legal citizen, subject to the concentration of Hispanics in a given area.

Many law enforcement bureaus lump Whites and Hispanics together as one race, making it very hard to distinguish the true racial numbers, but that only holds true for the counting of legal Hispanics.

Illegal Hispanics are absolutely counted and tracked. The best you are going to come up with is about 3.5% of all crimes are being committed by illegal immigrants. That's it.

You'll find plenty of rhetorical numbers posted all over the net, but they are nothing more than statistics that were absolutely made up to make people afraid of Hispanics.

Hatred makes people lie like the dickens. The game is not new. Only the targeted race has changed.

April 30, 2010 at 8:26 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Al

Why don't you get off the hate/racist gig? It's tiresome and accomplishes nothing except make you look like - well you figure it out.

Do you disagree they are breaking our laws simply by being here? Like I said, either enforce them or change them. Either way, something has to happen or this idiocy will continue.

April 30, 2010 at 9:23 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Why don't you get off the hate/racist gig? It's tiresome and accomplishes nothing except make you look like - well you figure it out."


I'm not interest in how it makes me look. But if someone walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...someone's ducking the real issue at hand.


"Do you disagree they are breaking our laws simply by being here?"


Imagine if you will, the same question being asked by the Native Americans way back when, and look how THAT turned out for them. Those that were not shot and killed for their lands, were shuffled off into patches of land eventually and were allowed to procreate and are now graciously afforded to own Casinos.

Our forefathers did some rather evil things to provide the land to us that was basically stolen. Who are any of us to make the current guest list?

Are they breaking 'our laws?' Yes, but then they are currently contributing somewhere between 2 and 3 TRILLION dollars to our economy. There would be nothing good coming from their removal from our society.


"Like I said, either enforce them or change them. Either way, something has to happen or this idiocy will continue."


Trust me, the Democrats in all of their wisdom and compassion will address the situation as it needs to be done by legitimizing their presense, of course over the objections of those who consider themselves to be "compassionate Conservatives."

Former President Bush did nothing but to sit on his hands when he could have had the support of all his worshipers mind you, by enforcing immigration laws. Even he knew it was inhumane and economic suicide to round 'em all up and dump them south of the border, given that they contribute so much to our society, legal or not.

May 1, 2010 at 12:18 a.m.
Sailorman said...

"I'm not interest in how it makes me look. But if someone walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...someone's ducking the real issue at hand."

BS You want to see what a racist looks like? Try the mirror.

"imagine if you will, the same question being asked by the Native Americans..."

What does that have to do with anything?

"the Democrats in all of their wisdom and compassion will address the situation as it needs to be done by legitimizing their presense (sic), "

LOL thanks for the Saturday laugh - stick with Craft trial - at least you make sense on that topic.

May 1, 2010 at 8:56 a.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "BS You want to see what a racist looks like? Try the mirror."


I don't suppose that you would care to explain that statement, would you? I'm a racist for desiring to see that illegal immigrants are provided a path to citizenship?

Wow.


"What does that have to do with anything?"


If you were going to simply make a stupid statement and ask stupid questions, why did you bother to post at all?

May 1, 2010 at 3:29 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Yeah whatever - you are truly a waste of time

May 1, 2010 at 6:24 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Yeah whatever - you are truly a waste of time."


I am sorry that you feel that way, but the undeniable truth to the matter is that this entire issue surrounds mostly a race of people, who for the most part, are desperate for a means in which to support themselves and their families.

If Americans were truly unable to find work or a place to live, then I might understand all this concern being expressed in regard to illegal immigrants. But jobs are out there for those fervently seeking one, and there certainly is no shortage of empty properties for sale or for rent.

I read a news story today, offered by the AP, reporting that an Arizona Deputy Sheriff was wounded by an "illegal immigrant." The person who most likely shot that man was not an immigrant of any sort. He was most likely shot by a drug trafficker who had no interest whatsoever in living on this side of the border. His business is based south of that border.

It is intellectually dishonest to describe a Mexican drug runner as someone in same class of people who are here to work and live.

We differ only on what to do about those who are not here for nefarious purposes. You consider them criminals because they violate our immigration laws, whereas I feel that that we should welcome them because they do contribute much to our society.

We differ on how to truly address the issue of illegal immigration. You find that throwing up fences or walls, prohibiting employers from hiring them, and increasing deportation efforts, the current methods on the books to reduce illegal immigration, are the way to go about reducing their numbers.

I feel that we should assist the nations that they come from, in raising the bar so that these people will more likely stay where they are. You can put a dish of candy on the kitchen table, tell a child all day long to leave the candy alone, but the minute you are out of site a piece or two will disappear.

When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. It's very likely that neither you nor I have a working knowledge of what it is to be that kind of desperate.

I try to understand why it is that a person would leave their home, if they have one that is, to travel thousands of miles in many cases, to seek to better their lives. You seem reluctant to do so, or simply do not care.

These people risk life and limb to relocate here, be it temporarily or for a more permanent basis. I readily admit that I could not or would not do the same thing if I were to find myself in similar circumstances.

I admire their bravery and pray regularly that they find what they seek, for all people deserve a shot at a decent life.

But...that's me.

May 1, 2010 at 7:39 p.m.
acerigger said...

FACT;canary don't do links or sources .never has in all my observations of it's many posts.It's always "find it yourself",or "you're too blinded by left/prog,commie,marxist,sumthin,sumthin to heed my truth".It's kind of ironic tho,that historically when the canary fell silent in the mine it meant danger from methane(coal gas).

May 1, 2010 at 9:24 p.m.
Sailorman said...

OK Al after that obviously heartfelt post, I'll give it one more try. Believe it or not, i don't necessarily disagree with some of what you said.

No drug runners are not the same as illegal immigrants - except that they are both here illegally. Granted for different reasons one of which you think noble. The child and the cookie on the table is a good example. Try this version: You only have three cookies available daily which you leave on the table for your child every afternoon. Every day, before your child can eat them, three kids from the local area sneak in and each grabs a cookie. What do you do about it? I'll leave that for you to decide.

There is already a path to citizenship - it's called legal immigration and millions have taken it. I see no reason to accept those who knowingly broke our laws regardless of the reason they did so. Anymore than I would accept a bank robber whose mother needed a place to live. Altruistic but illegal.

Aside from that, this country can't afford to simply open the gates. We can't pay our bills now and Washington, of whatever stripe, shows no inclination to change that. We can not continue to be the world's keeper using borrowed money.

As for the racist thing, you made this statement;

"Hatred makes people lie like the dickens. The game is not new. Only the targeted race has changed."

The obvious implication is that anybody who disagrees with amnesty, and that's what it is, is a racist. The hatred part is just plain silly. I no more hate Mexicans than I hate my neighbor. I say that anyone who sees racism as the reason for disagreements is the one with the racist tendencies or hiding behind the term. I despise Obama's policy direction and it has nothing to do with his race. I despised a good bit of what Bush did too. It wasn't because he was white. You know as well as I do that racists come in all colors.

May 1, 2010 at 9:33 p.m.

Sailor, you are way too honest and reasonable for the likes of the above you address. They have proven over and over that 1) they detest reason when it comes from a 'conservative' 2) when they DEMAND PROOF of our experience/facts/truth and you give them all the 'links', articles, life experience available, they scoff at our facts and continue to mock us and 3) when it involves issues near and dear to a Left-Prog's 'heart', there is no other reality for them. Left/Progressivism truly is a disease.

It is quite clear that they do no research other than what their Left mentors tell them and if they dared to even do a cursory search on the origin of their erroneous belief system, they might be surprised (or maybe not) just how racist and uncompassionate the founders/dictators of those same beliefs really were/are.

"that's just me" is completely laughable and pathetic in light of the obvious me-centric world these creeps live in. We're supposed to do their homework for them and explain to them that real, American citizens (like myself) of all races, living in the border states are extremely fed up and broke because of the illegal situation. How dare anyone sit and preach what they should do? Especially the rioting, activist, insane Leftists who are changing the truth of any given issue in America on a daily basis? In many large, US cities and in the Halls of Justice/Gov't as we speak?

May 2, 2010 at 8:48 a.m.

The FACTS are clear. Yes, there are many hurting people and societies in the world. Yes, we have been aiding many of them and their corrupt Dictators for decades to the tune of trillions of dollars now. No, we CANNOT afford to do this anymore. No sovereign nation on earth allows its borders to be UNCONTROLLED. Why are we doing it-the stupidest act any country could do in not protecting the security of its own citizens? Why indeed. It is nothing but a ploy to flood this land with an enormous voting base of mostly poor, uneducated folks who will most definitely vote for the Democrat/Leftist Party who feeds and clothes them from our bank accounts. That is compassion? We also have seniors, children and disabled amongst us-all citizens to help. There isn't even enough to go around for them anymore.

As for not hating us, those who have given them riches from our pockets? Think that the "hard-working" parents of now, full-fledged gang members in our ghettos (where I lived btw-did any of you?), love us and want the best for our country? Yes, they came for jobs and a better life. Many have that now and continue to break our laws and spit in our faces with hatred. You stunned big-talkers. Go down to where your "hard-workers" live and entertain yourselves and them with your continual, useless, know-nothing-of-reality talk and dribblings. I'll bet you all your bank accounts and mine, you will not come out alive.

My last word to you dims from the canary who is only in the mine to warn of danger and does not fear death or snipes from the likes of you guys who know nothing of what you speak: is to have a life while you can. Things are a-changing mighty fast and your little world will soon be rocked. Arizonans aren't the only ones to know that and won't be the last.

May 2, 2010 at 8:52 a.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Try this version: You only have three cookies available daily which you leave on the table for your child every afternoon. Every day, before your child can eat them, three kids from the local area sneak in and each grabs a cookie. What do you do about it? I'll leave that for you to decide."


Respectfully, I think your logic is faulty.

Illegal immigrants are not stealing. True blue criminals aside, the vast majority who come here work for what they have just like the rest of us.

Again, I state in all honesty: If Americans were truly being shoved aside in favor of illegal immigrants, if indeed any American is unable to find gainful employment, housing, or practically anything else, then I would stand beside you in full support of controlling immigration through drastic measures such as mass deportation.

I do feel that the saturation point may have been reached, at least temporarily, in that there is proof that many illegal immigrants are returning to their homes because the pool of jobs that they were being hired for has shrunk as well.


"Aside from that, this country can't afford to simply open the gates."


I'm not suggesting that we should just open the gates. However, because Americans are not having children in numbers that they once did, and because our system of supporting the elderly through Social Security is going to need a very strong shot in the arm and soon, there is absolutely a need to allow immigrants to work and pay taxes, so that an impending crisis does not become a disaster.


"The obvious implication is that anybody who disagrees with amnesty, and that's what it is, is a racist."


No, I did not accuse anyone who disagrees with amnesty of being racists. I do however feel that the endorsing of any effort to purge our nation of any number of people who happen to share a common race, to be racist in intent and purpose.

I find that to endorse inconveniencing all people of a certain race and to have to PROVE that they are an American whenever challenged to do so, to be quite racist as well.

If a law were passed demanding that every person in America to produce their birth certificate if asked to by any law enforcement officer, there is no way that you would support such a law.

So because white and black people are the least likely among those who live or pass through Arizona that will be targeted by this law, and it will only target those of Hispanic descent, it's all a-okay.

Make no mistake, it's a racially based law, it's Unconstitutional, it's a majority overruling the rights of a minority, it's not the way we do things in this country, and it sucks.

I will again ask that if this law is allowed to survive, what is next for the rest of us? Give them an inch....and you can doggone well count on them taking a mile.

May 2, 2010 at 1:11 p.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "Why are we doing it-the stupidest act any country could do in not protecting the security of its own citizens? Why indeed. It is nothing but a ploy to flood this land with an enormous voting base of mostly poor, uneducated folks who will most definitely vote for the Democrat/Leftist Party who feeds and clothes them from our bank accounts."


And you want everyone to believe that you are not a racist pig? Fat chance.

Your position is that every Hispanic who happens to emigrate here is uneducated and too stupid to vote for a Conservative? Does that just about sum up your perceptions of illegal immigrants?

You're a chicken hiding behind a computer monitor.

I suppose in your world, it could never be that these people are painfully aware of the fact that right-wingers would rather put them out of sight and out of mind, and literally do nothing at all but damn them with every breath taken whenever the issue is on the table.

Didn't you attempt to claim that you are Hispanic? Given the vitriolic nature of the words contained in all of your posts regarding the illegal immigrant issue, do you think that anyone believes that you are anything but a lily-white skinhead?

You are a shining example of the type of people who will never be allowed to be in charge of this nation ever again.

So please, keep up the good work. People need to know what you fine self-proclaiming, compassionate folks are all about.

And don't forget to remind people what a fine example you are of a poor, picked on Christian, although I have to grab my barf bag every time you do it.

May 2, 2010 at 1:46 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Al

We obviously have a basic difference in philosophy. It's unlikely we will agree and that's fine. If everybody agreed on everything all the time, only one person would be doing the thinking.

We'll see how it all plays out - or our kids will more likely.

Have a nice day.

May 2, 2010 at 3:02 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Al

We obviously have a basic difference in philosophy. It's unlikely we will agree and that's fine. If everybody agreed on everything all the time, only one person would be doing the thinking."


When you're right, you're right. I truly don't want any hard feelings between us because we can't agree. I never take things personal nor hold grudges because at one time I was as conservative as they come. I try very hard not to make things personal, but it happens.


"Have a nice day."


You too friend.

May 2, 2010 at 6:37 p.m.

You insane, lying pervert, you "try" nothing but to pervert and lie your way through others posts and put words in our mouths that were never there. You spew trash and lies because you have no facts, no experience and no truth.

I never once claimed to be anything other than what I am. And if you are so proud of yourself and not a coward, reveal your identity instead of demanding those of us who disagree with your insane ramblings do so.

The one thing I do know is, you are a liar and a pretender. I am sure even your own wife and 'clients' would be the ones puking if they knew what and who you really are. One evil dude.

May 3, 2010 at 12:37 a.m.
alprova said...

Canary wrote: "You insane, lying pervert, you "try" nothing but to pervert and lie your way through others posts and put words in our mouths that were never there. You spew trash and lies because you have no facts, no experience and no truth."


Okey dokey. Nothing to see here, nor worth responding to.


"I never once claimed to be anything other than what I am."


Which would be a big zero. I knew your claim was bogus. Thanks for confirming it. You forget what you post, don't you?


"And if you are so proud of yourself and not a coward, reveal your identity instead of demanding those of us who disagree with your insane ramblings do so."


I've never called for anyone to post their identity -- certainly not yourself. Based on your demeanor in this forum, I wouldn't care to know you at all.

I also couldn't care less if you disagree with anything at all that I post. If my posts bother you, then don't read them.


"The one thing I do know is, you are a liar and a pretender."


You know diddly-squat. That is an opinion, and an opinion that I can do nothing about, nor do I care to do anything to change it. You're entitled to it.

By all means, feel free at anytime to prove that I lie or pretend. Until that day comes, you are doing nothing more than passing gas.


"I am sure even your own wife and 'clients' would be the ones puking if they knew what and who you really are."

Not that I make it a point to discuss politics when I am conducting business, if and when the subject does arise during conversation, I make no secret of my political leanings.

If you or anyone else make decisions as to who you do business with based on a person's political ideals, more power to you. The world is filled with shallow thinking people.

As to my wife, not that it's any of your business, we have been married a long time. She is far more liberal than I am, and we were political opposites for many years before I became disgusted with the Republican Party and people much like yourself for instance, who constantly remind me that I absolutely made the correct decision to hop that fence.

May 3, 2010 at 6:29 p.m.
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