published Thursday, November 11th, 2010

Common Ground

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

Comments do not represent the opinions of the Chattanooga Times Free Press, nor does it review every comment. Profanities, slurs and libelous remarks are prohibited. For more information you can view our Terms & Conditions and/or Ethics policy.
Musicman375 said...

My favorite toon in quite a while. Very nice.

November 11, 2010 at 12:11 a.m.
alprova said...

Folks, it's been a blast, but the link Nazi(s) at the TFP are making it all but impossible to have any meaningful discussion in this forum any longer. Now, mentioning the name of a site or search engine gets your post banned.

So, I've decided to pull my participation from the site and I probably will not be buying any more of their papers hereafter as well.

Good luck to all the regulars, and may you all live long and prosperous lives.

Carry on...

November 11, 2010 at 1:40 a.m.
Francis said...

put liberty over on the republican side...the current democrat party is more concerned about intruding in our lives and controlling us rather than freedom or liberty.

"drill baby drill" is fine....better than the oilgate scandal brewing regarding the obama administration and tainted science for the purpose of misleading.

what's that called....hmmm....corruption?

November 11, 2010 at 2:07 a.m.
Clara said...

Well, it just happened again. Posted again, acceptance, but no show.


I'm concerned!

November 11, 2010 at 3:38 a.m.
woody said...

Al..if you're still around, it's been a pleasure reading so many of your posts here. I can't say I blame you though.

Any place where someone finds fault with a 'toon' such as today's is not much fun to be.'ve done it again!!

Veterans all, you are loved, Woody

November 11, 2010 at 6:07 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Common ground in the middle, anyway. Thank you, Clay.

November 11, 2010 at 6:20 a.m.
Sailorman said...

For once I agree with Alprova - this is just stupid. On top of that, we get deleted and cr*p like this gets through??

Interesting article! I just now got Coupons of my Favorite Brands for free at Username: earvinjace11 | On: November 11, 2010 at 1:36 a.

What's up with that?

Thx Clay for at least throwing "happy veteran's day" in with the stereotyping pap.

November 11, 2010 at 6:23 a.m.
JohnnyRingo said...

Happy Veterans Day to all. I guess by proxy it's also a happy banker and mailman day.

November 11, 2010 at 6:25 a.m.
ITguy said...


Please reconsider. We need your voice of sanity. As you see above, even when Clay draws a cartoon that attempts to find common ground, Francis foams at the mouth.

November 11, 2010 at 6:30 a.m.
moonpie said...

alprova would be a loss.

The cartoons will keep me coming back, but the conversation may get one sided. I liked that alprova backed up what he said.

I think the TFP policy is misguided, because it makes this site less compelling.

This site, as a conduit to other useful sites, is losing punch. That's something rolando and alprova and I can all agree.

I don't need a wall of Francis, where people make emotionally charged, unsubstantiated claims repeatedly.

I'm at risk, too, alprova.

November 11, 2010 at 6:51 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

It would be a shame, as alprova provides interesting information that is backed up by sources. If encouraging folks to provide support gets their posts deleted, the exchange will lose value.

Maybe Mr. Bennett can shed some light on this?

November 11, 2010 at 7:05 a.m.
moon4kat said...

I wish Clay Bennett had included a few other Democratic programs that Republicans were (and some still are) against, like Social Security, minimum wage, Medicare.

November 11, 2010 at 7:23 a.m.
EaTn said...

True that this site is much more controlling than others, like the one in Knoxville, but to get 90% truth from our participants is much better than one gets from our government. Also, I'm more interested in our opinions and not so much into clicking on supportive links. To drop out is a loss to all participants since we have developed an appreciation and tolerance for each other's comments--well at least most.

November 11, 2010 at 7:32 a.m.
mmlj said...

Awesome, Clay.

November 11, 2010 at 8:11 a.m.
rolando said...

Something is seriously wrong with Clay. A Progressive's cartoon in SUPPORT of our military? Unheard of!


November 11, 2010 at 8:15 a.m.
Francis said...

even in a veterens day cartoon, mr. bennett can't resist getting jabs in at the republican party.

can't he just pay tribute to the people who serve this country and make it possible for him to have the freedom to express his opinions?

right moon pie.. security..the model of efficiancy...

thanks to the absurd increases in the mimimum wage...there are more young people 15 to 19 unemployed right now than ever....mimumum wage is meant to be just that, miniumum..not intended to support a family on... it's there to be a starting point..for those who are young and have no skills. as an employee gains skills and becomes more valuable to the the business..then it can go up.

dems have no respect for employers, of which most are small businesses... and how difficult it is to keep a business going.

November 11, 2010 at 8:23 a.m.
rolando said...

lkeithlu, toonfan, alprova, musicman375, the long-absent canaryinacoalmine, et al here...

We have certainly had our differences here, sometimes bordering on the violent [cyber-violent] but I MUST agree with alprova's final comment.

It is to the point on this forum that meaningful discourse can no longer occur. Insults abound, personal attacks are rampant -- even seemingly encouraged -- but links to other sites are prohibited by the Times-Free Press, Chattanooga ONLY newspaper.

We can no longer refer others to the sources of information we used in support our position. After all, what website on the Internet is NOT connected with a news bureau? Other than our government's, that is.

I have been slowly withdrawing from this forum for some time now. I will miss the regulars.

Perhaps the TFP will notice the decrease in comments here, but probably not. One wonders if this was their intent...

So we now have a rigidly controlled forum where opposites -- such as those symbolized by Clay's cartoon -- can no longer meet for discussion, however polite or impolite. We had our own cross-section of America going here, folks.

I congratulate the TFP --

November 11, 2010 at 8:34 a.m.
alprova said...

I just wanted to pop back in to add that I know for sure that Mr. Bennett is in no manner responsible for the decision to remove posts from threads.

So please, don't anyone blame Mr. Bennett for the sudden and undeclared "no outside links" policy that has led to my decision to no longer participate in any discussion on this site any longer.

I thank everyone for the kind words expressed. I want everyone to know that I personally hold no hard feelings toward a soul, even if we could never see eye to eye, so to speak.

After perusing the "Publication Information, Privacy Policy, Terms and Conditions" link supplied at the bottom of the page, they do retain the right to pull any and all posts."

"Moreover, we reserve the right to reject, delete, disable, or remove any Content at any time, for the reasons set forth above, for any other reason, or for no reason."

Personally, in all my years of participation on various sites, I have never witnessed the pulling of posts for the sole reason that they contain a hyperlink that would take someone off the site they are currently on, and I doubt there are many other sites that screen and remove posts to such a degree.

As someone noted, the policy does not seem to be applied in a uniform manner, nor can it be explained as a means by which to control spam or links to malicious sites. It's being done by a person or persons for their own reason(s).

I loved this site for keeping discussions clean, but this policy of late is simply too far over the top, in my personal and respectful opinion. The fact that it is being done by a press related outlet is a little more than ironic.

Whatever the case may be, who's decision it has been to enact it, or whatever reason there may be under Heaven for doing so, I find it too radical a policy.

Anyway, enough said. Take care everyone.

November 11, 2010 at 8:36 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

aplprova, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’

Please reconsider.

November 11, 2010 at 8:42 a.m.
BobMKE said...

I served in the military in the 60's. Then I started my career as a Police Officer in 1969. During the next two to three years I had to battle the baby boomer students protesting the war. I was punched, knocked down, had God knows what thrown at me, and had fire bombs land at my feet. I have always respected the people who have served this Country. The baby boomers who were protesting during that time then realized that violent protests don't work. They then turned to the schools and colleges to turn those young mush brains into liberals so they came turn the Country around from within. They are still here today, the teachers, professors (baby boomers)the media, all working together, but things changed at the last election. They are not going to stop and we can't let our guard down. Clay and your kind are HYPOCRITES.

November 11, 2010 at 8:44 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

I always think about my father on Veteran's Day. When World War II broke out he was working for Bell Aircraft. He traveled all over the Country and wound up in Oakland, California in 1942. He worked on the P-38.

When we started the push in the Pacific the Army Air Corps (there was no Air Force at the time) asked Bell to let my dad out of his contract. They refused. In an act of defiance he later called the worst decision in his life he joined the Marines.

"Here I was," he often told me, "A 26-year old with a wife a kid at home, huffing and grunting my way through the obstacle courses."

He didn't say much else about his time in the Marines, but when I was a kid I found his old duffle bag down in the basement. Inside I found a Japanese flag. When I asked him about it he dug out two other souvenirs: a Japanese rifle and a ceremonial sword. He said it was all nothing, just junk he picked up along the way.

After he passed away in 2004 I found a tiny diary he kept. I found out he was at both Iwo Jima and Okinawa. On the entry for February 23, 1945, I found a single entry: "Saw flag go up on big rock."

It still brings tears to my eyes. I think I know why he didn't want to relate his war stories.

To all the vets who served, in both peace time and at war, gratitude is a gross understatement.

November 11, 2010 at 9:06 a.m.
GreenKepi said...

I've dodged a few bullets in my time...kinda hard to take this greeting of "Happy Vets Day" seriously...when one understands the true intent behind the cartoon. Just doesn't feel very 'United' anymore to hurts....

November 11, 2010 at 9:11 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I agree with you, rolando. If the site is being censored I am no longer interested in participating. I will miss all of you and the interchanges, no matter how heated they are! I raise my virtual glass to all of you. Cheers!

November 11, 2010 at 9:26 a.m.
Clara said...

I'm going to miss you Alprova.

It took me many months to find Clay Bennett's Cartoons again, after he left the CSM. I am not giving up on the cartoons, but I will probably not post. I will glance over, with regret at the downfall of the only blog I have ever wanted to partake of. I learned a great deal from you ALL.

I'd like to thank all the Veterans, beside myself, who served.

Ikiethlu, Alprova, Toonfan, Nuckanuck, Woody, Blackwater, Musicman, and all the others who helped me get started.

I have no money invested in TFP, so it's no loss to them, or gain, either, if I made the complete break. It is only Clay's cartoons and support that keeps me here. I'd follow him to any paper on which he chose to work. Does that make me a stalker? C:-)

Clay, I would like to hear the reasons for this sudden rigidity. I know it isn't you.

Your Stubborn Old "i I" Clara

November 11, 2010 at 9:31 a.m.
acerigger said...

You can still have a lot of fun with the editorials!

November 11, 2010 at 9:41 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Alprova and Lkeithlu, we really do hate to see you go. I know we hardly agree on anything, but you know they say, opposites attract. I love reading all the discussions from you guys. Believe it or not, I have learned a lot from both of you. I completely understand your reasoning for leaving though. I hope you will consider coming back in the future.

To all who have served in our Military, I am very grateful. Blackwater I love that story of your father. My father would not talk about his experiences much either.

I served in a peace time but am still very grateful to have had the opportunity.

Al and lkeith, we will miss you.

November 11, 2010 at 9:47 a.m.
whoknows said...

I would hate to see lkeith go. That's one that brings intelligence to the discussion. And someone with an open mind who will listen to what you have to say rather than let their biased get in the way. You'll be missed if you go.

Cheers, Clay.

Happy Veteran's Day to all who have served. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Your service, in war and in peace is something everyone should admire.

November 11, 2010 at 9:58 a.m.
acerigger said...

I too,will miss your awesome fact-finding and posting AL. I hope that you will re-consider your decision. Lies and mis-information must be countered, and you're good at it,so ,please, think hard about this.

November 11, 2010 at 9:59 a.m.
hambone said...

No comment from me today. I'm taking Veteran's Day off.

USN 1960-1964

November 11, 2010 at 10:22 a.m.
LibDem said...

Thanks to all those who've served our Country.

November 11, 2010 at 10:26 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

Note posted on Clay's facebook page and I do agree with the sentiment expressed. Please Alprova stay...and I would even say this for any on the right. Clay- I have read the comments on the Free- Press site about other links being posted...I know you are not at fault, please understand that. Burt Alprova is right and it is not fair...and you can put your two cents in and get them to cut it out. If it contiunes the conversation then it needs to stay in ...there is too much vitriol and hatred as it is...

November 11, 2010 at 10:31 a.m.
acerigger said...

BobMKe,contrary to what you may think, protesting any war which is known to be immoral and,or illegal, is not dis-respecting the troops. Yes some anti-Vietnam protesters were way out of line and over the top,but the fact remains that the entire debacle was a cruel hoax perpetrated by the Big Money Boyz. The two wars(that we know about) being waged today is just more of the same. Support our troops by all means, but the Military-Industrial Complex is bankrupting America.

November 11, 2010 at 11:18 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

Folks- I have been told by Mr Bennett that the policy has been reversed. So those who have left because of this policy please come back.

It may also help if the News-Free Press put out an apology for this policy being implemented in the first place.(I know i am dreaming)

November 11, 2010 at 11:47 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

Veterans Day.. a day of reflection. Fond memories of friends gone. Random memories that show up in flashes, many bringing a smile, others bringing an ache.

A Veteran is one who gave up many of their civilian rights in protection of those who cannot, will not and even those who care not.

The promise we made to protect the Constitution still empowers us to continue protect it.

Damn.. without the Alprova and lkeithlu posts, the nutters are going to think they are winning.

Suppression of well researched opinion, knowledge and potential education may be the winning theme in this area, but there are still many who will call stupid out.

TFP will soon be a rag no better than the national enquirer or world nuts daily.

Now to head to Sam's for a new cane, my old one needs to retire. Thanks Hugo for the free cane for veterans promotion.

November 11, 2010 at 11:49 a.m.
Francis said...

no ace...liberalism with its socialist agenda is bankrupting america..and has been doing so for over 50 years. much of the world is governed by force and we need everything we have..and more. what's bankrupting america are fat, stupid, greedy and corrupt politicians who create programs to line their pocket and increase their power....and the majority, by far, are demo- barney frank, like christopher dodd, like ted kennedy, like nancy pelosi and a whole lot more..and yes, obama.

to whine about the "military indrustrial complex " of lib's favorite terms...and at the same time endorse the stupid-ass policies of obama, which, at its core, is about spending more than you take laughable.

democrats...have wasted more of the tax payer's hard earned money than all wars combined.

November 11, 2010 at 11:50 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

It's ironic that on the day we set aside to honor Veterans, who served to protect our Country and all of our freedoms, that so many comments are directed at freedom of speech.

And a newspaper calling itself the "Free Press" should find it necessary to censor comments.

I guess we can stop referring to the TFP as a liberal rag.

November 11, 2010 at 11:51 a.m.
acerigger said...

Fran, your rants would make more sense if you pre-faced each one with "in my opinion"

November 11, 2010 at 12:43 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

acerigger wrote, "Fran, your rants would make more sense if you pre-faced each one with "in my opinion"

Ace, they aren't just his opinion. He believes they are Truth and not, therefore, bound by fact, reason, logic, rational thought, perspective, or nuance.

Trying to reason with conservatives is pointless. They suckle at the Fox teat and just regurgitate the sound bites.

For instance CBO scores, OMB reports, and poll numbers that don't support the Banana Republican talking points are discounted as so much liberal propaganda.

Why bother?

November 11, 2010 at 1:03 p.m.
Clara said...


I won't believe it until I try to post my Wikipedia dingus on Exceptionalism, and American Exceptionalism again, and it really gets posted.

Wish me luck!

November 11, 2010 at 1:14 p.m.
EaTn said...

For all those who are considering pulling out of comments on this site:

You can't win the game by sitting on the bleachers. You can't win the war by sitting in the trenches. You can't complain about the political system without voting. And you can't make a difference on this site by pulling out your comments.

There are a lot of legal issues to opening up a web site to comments. I'm not a lawyer but I doubt if the TFP has pockets so deep they can ignore this liability.

November 11, 2010 at 1:25 p.m.
Clara said...

Both from Wikipedia

"Exceptionalism is the perception that a country, society, institution, movement, or time period is "" (i.e., unusual or extraordinary) in some way and thus does not need to conform to normal rules or general principles." ...

"The state of being special, exceptional or unique; the belief that a particular nation does not conform to an established norm" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The article was too long to post in its entirety, hence the URL.

American exceptionalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.mht

November 11, 2010 at 1:42 p.m.
acerigger said...

BLACKWATER SEZ"Trying to reason with conservatives is pointless. They suckle at the Fox teat and just regurgitate the sound bites" Yeah, I know, but you know what they say about "hope that springs eternal", it's a built-in fault of us lib-progs,lol.

November 11, 2010 at 1:47 p.m.
Clara said...

Oh Wow! It got on, but it required a refresh!

Thanks Dumbledore!

Reconsidering leaving Alprova,Ikeithlu? I hope so.

November 11, 2010 at 1:48 p.m.
Francis said...

if they're not an opinion..then what are they.

well...i guess the wikipedia definition makes it law then.

we have been an exceptional country, we are an exceptional country and we must continue to be an exceptional country..for the sake of the world.

what a slanted, liberal definintion written by liberals..completely geared to attack those who believe in american this time....doesn't fool me..

take the u.s.a out of the world 200 years ago, 100 years and in the future and the world is a sorry place....despite our flaws, mistakes, imperfections and problems to overcome...we are an exceptional country.

not once did i state that we are beyond criticism...but to believe we are not exceptional, or, for those who can't stomach that word, unique.... speaks to your lack of understanding of what a special place this is.

great post bob mike..

November 11, 2010 at 2:12 p.m.
alprova said...

I too received confirmation that the policy of removing posts containing links, has been reversed.

Thank you, Mr. Bennett, for going to bat for those of us who had contacted you about the issue.

I have decided to reverse my decision to leave the site and I will be purchasing my daily copy of the paper on my way to work.

Onward we go....

November 11, 2010 at 2:14 p.m.
acerigger said...

To any and all, never have I denied that America is the greatest country on earth! We are exceptional! As you said though Fran, we are not beyond criticism.

November 11, 2010 at 2:32 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis wondered, "if they're not an opinion..then what are they."

Not fact. Your opinion might be that the world is flat.

If someone showed you pictures of the Earth from space you might say it only shows that the world is ROUND.

If there are no facts to back you opinion then it's just your word against everyone else. While this seems to be a forum for expressing one's opinions, it would be nice to know you had reached your conclusions based on something concrete.

Some Conservatives who post on this site seem to be wholly unconcerned with showing reasons for believing what they believe.

To take one example, instead of just railing about the Health Care Bill, tell they rest of us what exactly you don't like. Is that so difficult?

To blame everything on Obama is disingenuous. Criticizing him without acknowledging the problems he faced when he entered office comes across as shallow, partisan ranting.

Some of us still try to reach the best conclusion based on fact. Please, please, please, enlighten us. Please.

And please, no foaming.

November 11, 2010 at 2:32 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Speaking of veterans, I note in today’s news that once again members representing Wall Street's profiteers have declared war on veterans, the elderly, children, middle class parents, and the poor. This time around it’s Simpson and Bowles who sit on the so-called bipartisan deficit commission.

Needless to say, the agenda of this particular "deficit" duo is self-serving and like all of the selfish profiteers who came before them, they're trying to charge veterans for health care, reduce Social Security, slash the mortgage tax deduction, eliminate the Earned Income Tax Credit, and, of course, slash the deduction for charitable giving.

Indeed, if a deficit commission were truly bipartisan it would include members of a non-Wall Street mentality who would be more open to things like a Wall Street financial speculation tax, which would raise large amounts of annual revenue. Something, of course, members like Mr. Bowles who is a director a Morgan Stanley would never consider since his bank would be impacted.

November 11, 2010 at 2:36 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

blackwater48, the healthcare issue has been debated long before you got here and there were several of us that stated exactly what we did not like about it. You would need to go back and read some of those comments from archives.

November 11, 2010 at 2:40 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Thanks, NFJ, for completely missing the point.

November 11, 2010 at 2:43 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

ok BW... so maybe I missed something. Is the following your point?

"Some Conservatives who post on this site seem to be wholly unconcerned with showing reasons for believing what they believe." "To blame everything on Obama is disingenuous. Criticizing him without acknowledging the problems he faced when he entered office comes across as shallow, partisan ranting.

Some of us still try to reach the best conclusion based on fact. Please, please, please, enlighten us. Please."

Sorry, I guess I read thru to quickly. I will try to be more careful next time. And thanks for not generalizing us conservatives by saying "some". Because "some" of us really do try to make our points.

November 11, 2010 at 2:53 p.m.
woody said...

"From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli..."

"Over hill, over dale we must 'hit' the dusty trail..."

Anchors away, my boys, anchors away..."

Off we go into the wild blue yonder..."

"From North and South and East and West, The Coast Guard's in the fight..."

And every county in every state National Guard unit..too numerous to mention here...

Semper Fi, Woody

November 11, 2010 at 3:14 p.m.
alprova said...

On this Veteran's Day, we all should take time to remember our Veterans and the sacrifices that they have all made for the Country.

That's a rather patriotic sentence, right? And I agree with it. And most people would not argue with it.

Then I stumbled upon BobMKE's paranoia filled post. In reference to Baby Boomers, whom he claims to have physically battled in his past when they opposed war, he writes, "They then turned to the schools and colleges to turn those young mush brains into liberals so they came turn the Country around from within. They are still here today, the teachers, professors (baby boomers)the media, all working together, but things changed at the last election."

Bob, contrary to your popular belief, this nation is filled with many people who do indeed find their way to embrace concepts of Liberalism, Socialism, and progressive thought, without being programmed by anyone.

There are many such people, like myself for instance, who find their way to adopting opinions by using their own brains to soak up facts that they choose to seek and to discover on their own, and to arrive at conclusions that all is not as it is appears in the Conservative world.

You see, I attended a technical based institute of higher learning. I was raised in a military family. And I am the son of a retired police officer.

I also am the nephew of two men who died in Vietnam. My Grandfather, who served in World War II and in Korea, grieved for the deaths of his two sons for more than 40 years. He spoke of them often and would turn to alcohol to drown their memories. He took his own life in 2005.

I am not opposed to war because of the idealisms of any teacher or professor. I am opposed to war because of the way it has affected those whom I love and loved.

I would never blame or disrespect any man or woman who is or has been deployed to serve at the behest of our nation's leaders. But I do find that some of our nation's leaders, both past and present, made some very lousy decisions to force our men and women to take up arms against others, without good cause, and certainly not in defense of this nation.

Your assumption that Liberals are a product of our educational system is pure bunk. Just because you have a propensity to equate patriotism with the taking of lives of others on a battlefield, it does not make it right or just in all cases.

In fact, when you think about it, this nation has gone to war for more wrong reasons, than they ever have right reasons.

Have any of our nation's leaders ever lost one of their offspring in any declared act of war, after sending them into battle?

And you think our brains are mush?

November 11, 2010 at 3:31 p.m.
rolando said...

"And a newspaper calling itself the "Free Press" should find it necessary to censor comments."

Blackwater, the TFP is actually two newspapers merged into one with the Times having ownership/control. Need I say the Times was an uber-liberal newspaper and the Free Press was conservative? Under the merger terms, it became known as the Times-Free Press. Each division has its own editorial page with its own cartoon -- that of the Free Press page is not published online, of course. Appropriately enough, the Free Press editorials are on the page on the right; the Times' are on the left.

Since it is alleged to be the "higher ups" doing the censoring, that means it is done -- in the great traditions of the Liberal -- by the TIMES.

Nice spin, though.

November 11, 2010 at 3:32 p.m.
rolando said...

"Fran, your rants would make more sense if you pre-faced each one with "in my opinion""

Essentially everything on this forum is opinion unless stated otherwise, acerigger. [That is -- or should be -- self-evident.]

November 11, 2010 at 3:34 p.m.
rolando said...

By the way, that "two-faced" aspect of the TFP is its strongest,most meaningful asset -- both sides are available.

Let's give this "revised" censorship policy a small test, shall we?

My next post will cite the website of a popular comic strip. The last time I cited it, it was removed.

November 11, 2010 at 3:40 p.m.
mtngrl said...

It doesn't matter what party lines you fall along....the fact that you get to choose is because of a veteran! Here's a big Thanks to all vets out there.

5 Things You Didn't Know About Veterans (And How You Can Support Them)

November 11, 2010 at 3:52 p.m.
BobMKE said...

acerigger rode at 11:18am "BobMKE contrary to what you may think, protesting any war which is known to be immoral and,or illegal, is not dis-respecting the troops." I agree with you because a million plus service people have died to up hold that right. In the late 60's early 70's the baby boomer protesters never learned anything from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. on how to conduct a peaceful protest. On his end that is. People have never learned anything from Dr. King. The troops were brutally dis-respected back then but what is the excuse of the hateful comments made by Kerry, Murtha and then Obama during the past few years about the conduct of our troops. Those comments later proved to be wrong. Again, many HYPOCRITES are honoring the troops today and one of them is our President.

NOTE: The MKE after my name means Milwaukee in airline terms. Welcome back alprova but keep it short.

November 11, 2010 at 3:59 p.m.
Reardon said...

From Major General Smedley Butler USMC, in his class anti-war book, "War is a Racket":

“War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

November 11, 2010 at 4:09 p.m.
rolando said...

Ah yes, the goldstar award system in again functioning. Skip over the high achievers...or just read one of them since they are all the same.

November 11, 2010 at 5:03 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Aaaahhhhhh...I get off work and check the site: links to Mallard Filmore are going through and rolando is seeing stars again. All is right with the world!

November 11, 2010 at 5:19 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

clay has stooped to a new low today, mentioning Veteran's Day and then using his cartoon to make a political statement and take another jab at conservatives. He must not have any respect for the men and women who have served in uniform defending this country. He would have done much better to avoid any mention of Veteran’s Day and continue to beat his liberal drum.

Is it possible that clay does not personally know any Veterans so that he cannot appreciate the sacrifices they have made? If he does and still cannot take one day off from his small minded campaign against the American experiment what does that say about him?

If he had a clue he would be ashamed of himself.

November 11, 2010 at 5:46 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I think they should replace the comment useful rating with little hammer & sickle symbols. The rating queens could then all have fun awarding 5 'sickles for each other.

November 11, 2010 at 5:54 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Reardon, thanks for the post. Sobering stuff.

I'm going to try and track down a copy of that book because I'm not depressed enough already.

November 11, 2010 at 6:17 p.m.
Francis said...

it's damn ironic that someone with such disrespect for our constitution and for the men and women in service is commander in chief.

you libs only pay attention to somone in the military when they bad-mouth the military and america.....there are ingrates, and based on the piece reardon has posted, a**s in the military as well. what a disgrace. what a pathetic socialist, anti-american rant.

if all the military were composed of a**s like that, you libs wouldnt' have the freedom to sit at your computers and participate in this forum.

my brother served in the marines for ten years and had to go back to civilian life way before he wanted to because of a chronic illness..,.he still gets emotional when he thinks about how he no longer is able to serve his country in the military.....

November 11, 2010 at 7:40 p.m.
Clara said...

Is this the part that got you to call me and Wikipedia liberal?

" unusual or extraordinary) in some way and thus does not need to conform to normal rules or general principles." ...

Sigh! You are not a conservative! How about you checking out Wikipedia's political beliefs. I thought they were rather fair in their acceptance of both sides.

Prove to me that they are not, and not from YOUR rigid mindset.

November 11, 2010 at 7:44 p.m.
hambone said...

I took most of today off, now that I've caught up I'll jump in.

BobMKE, I beleive that far more of those babyboomers you talk about went to Nam than showed their a$$ on college campus.

Francis, If you are a real person then you are the stupidest, most useless person I have ever see on any forum.

Myself, I am the son of parents that went thru the Hoover Boom, I am a veteran, a christian, I own guns, and a democrat by birth and thought.

There, that made me feel better!

November 11, 2010 at 8:59 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

blackwater, thank you for sharing the story about your father. My father was the same about the war was only right before he died in 2001 that he told me why his ship had been awarded three battle stars during the Korean War. The absolute selflessness with which they served is astounding.

Thank you to all of you veterans out there!

November 11, 2010 at 9:52 p.m.
acerigger said...

"The troops were brutally dis-respected back then but what is the excuse of the hateful comments made by Kerry, Murtha and then Obama during the past few years about the conduct of our troops. Those comments later proved to be wrong. Again, many HYPOCRITES are honoring the troops today and one of them is our President."Username: BobMKE Bob,I am not aware of what particular comments you refer to. Not to argue but I just plain don't know what you're talking about.

November 11, 2010 at 10:32 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re Reardon's Comment: "Major General Butler - "War is a Racket"

Reardon, thank you for posting the information about Major General Smedley Butler. What a fascinating guy and what interesting careers to say the least - author, public speaker, coal miner, Director of Public Safety, and a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps.

I also noteed that your "Fighting Quaker" and/or "Old Gimlet Eye" was one of the most decorated Marines in U.S. History at the time. It appears he was awarded 16 medals with five for heroism, a Marine Corps Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.

November 11, 2010 at 10:45 p.m.
Clara said...

There you go again,Francis,making assumptions about people,

I was in the Marine Corps for 2 years, and thought I'd be sent overseas, but back then women, except nurses, some female liaison officer and army personel were sent overseas. There were some female pilots but they were used for ferrying aircraft to the war zone.

That has changed, and as ridiculous as it seems, I would still offer to go overseas if needed in an HONEST effort to protect us. I am not making the statement because I know I am safe, due to age and disability, but I can try, if needed.

My son was on the Kennedy for 6 years in , and my husband served in the Army Air Force as recon. in North Africa and Italy for the entire war.

My nephew was a regular Air Force Lt. Col and led a squadron at refueling, besides working at the Pentagon with the joint chiefs of staff. My other nephew flunked out of the Navy Air Force because he couldn't land on carriers. But he was willing and tried!

My daughters lost a friend in Vietnam, as MIA, and I am truly angry at your insistance that liberals didn't serve as well as Reps, Dems,Gays,unschooled, genius', foreigners, and a bunch of others you want to classify.

You are pitiful! What an argument!

November 11, 2010 at 11:13 p.m.
alprova said...

BobMKE wrote: "The troops were brutally dis-respected back then but what is the excuse of the hateful comments made by Kerry, Murtha and then Obama during the past few years about the conduct of our troops."

Bob, what "hateful comments" have you to quote of the past few years, proving that Senator John Kerry, Former and deceased Senator John Murtha, and President Obama have ever uttered?

Senator John Kerry has made no comments regarding any troops since after returning from Vietnam. In fact, he has introduced and sponsored legislation that has been passed, expanding benefits for military personnel.

Former Senator John Murtha's comments, prior to his death, called for removing troops from Iraq, because the war was not being won. That statement is true, five years later.

He also, as chairman of the House Appropriations Defense Subcommittee, made comments regarding the Haditha incident, where several innocent killings took place.

In August 2006, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich filed a lawsuit against Murtha for character defamation during an ongoing investigation into the Haditha incident. That lawsuit was dismissed in Federal court.

On December 21, 2006, the US military charged Wuterich with 12 counts of unpremeditated murder against individuals and one count of the murder of six people "while engaged in an act inherently dangerous to others." His case is still ongoing, regarding nine of those counts.

President Obama? I challenge you to post one sentence ever uttered by the man that could begin to be taken as being hateful or disrespectful about any U.S. troop(s), stationed anywhere in the world. It doesn't exist.

"Those comments later proved to be wrong."

Which comments? Please be specific.

"Again, many HYPOCRITES are honoring the troops today and one of them is our President."

You're certainly entitled to your opinions, but I don't think you're going to find any FACTS to back up your opinions.

Your turn.

November 12, 2010 at 2:19 a.m.
alprova said...

Francis wrote: "if all the military were composed of a**s like that, you libs wouldnt' have the freedom to sit at your computers and participate in this forum."

Actually, if we had more men like that in the military, the next time that orders are given to send 20,000 men and women to fight a senseless battle on behalf of 'a few good men,' who's motive is to make a bunch of bucks off the deaths of our men and women, and tens of thousands of innocent people as well, someone might just pipe up and say;

"Mr. President, if you want to remove the leader of another nation, and to seize their oilfields for personal gain, 'cause he was looking for a way to take a pot-shot at your Daddy, then I suggest that you hop one of those planes going over there, don yourself one of those fancy camouflaged suits, load up a gun, and you get to take the first shot. We've got your back."

November 12, 2010 at 2:36 a.m.
Sailorman said...


John Kerry, the guy who thinks if you don't study hard, you'll end up in Iraq. Never mind his questionable service record. You'll call him a hero. Others, including some who served with him, disagree.

John Murtha and his infamous "babykiller" comment - Wuterich's lawsuit was dismissed not because Murtha's statement was true but because he made them in his "official capacity" - in other words - a technicality. The court martial has yet to be held. Why don't you withhold your condemnation until it's completed.

The other day, with regard to the Apache helicopter incident, you said:

"You can read the REAL story from a soldier who was there and was in that photo, as well as other stories that he has publicly spoken about since returning from Iraq after nearly losing his own life. He's an amazingly brave man for what he is attempting to do in bringing some of these things to light."

You then suggested we google Ethan McCord and get his "honest assessment". Well I did just that that. First up was They repeated his assertions without question but the comments that followed were interesting. Next was Michael Moore (who hosts McCord's blog) - an obviously unbiased individual who again repeated the assertions without question. Next was this:

From another Iraq veteran:

"Former soldiers like McCord, who are against the war, get star-studded media attention, while the 99.99% who claim they didn't commit atrocities (like me) are ignored."

and another

""Brother I was with McCord in Iraq in the same platoon I would love to explain to you or somebody of the lies he is telling everyone and the half truths. so if you would like you can e-mail me it is easier if you can find me on facebook. thanks and hope to hear from you soon.


""Andy Wolf said...

I was in that unit. I was in his company. Talk about a traitor.""

Followed by another unbiased luminary Cindy Sheehan.

Who's telling the truth? You don't know and neither does anybody else commenting on these forums. But, as always, it's telling to see who you believe.

BTW - glad you came back.

November 12, 2010 at 8:06 a.m.
Francis said...

wrong, libs always start from the point that america's motives are questionable, always..not to be trusted. you pretend to respect this country, but you do not. you don't like it's founders, you don't like our history and you don't like our role in the world. like madayln albright, who whined and regreted the demise of the soviet union because she didn't like the u.s. being the only "super power" libs are never comfortble with american leadership or dominence. pathetic.

that piece is garbage and it's perfectly in line with what you libs believe. i'm not surprised at all that you refer to it.

the most pathetic thing on veterens days was gen. powell's stupid comment about how more is asked of todays military than in ww2.....

revisionist history by an obama supporter...for someone who was in t he military that long, and in his position, to say that is astounding.

in ww2 they were drafted and were in for the duration, unless they were too injured to stay...there was constant battle. landing on beaches in normandy and other places being met with huge firepower as soon as you get off the' boat is a living hell they dont' face today. today's military are all volunteer and it's their job for the most part, unless they're in the reserves. ww2 was composed mostly of ordinary citizens who were drafted and quickly thrown into battle.

hambone, says i'm the "stupidest, most useless person "

i couldn't care less what you think......hambone. or anyone don't like my opinions and my observations, tough..

you libs always gravitate to sources and links that put this country down or back up your ant-american opinions..

wikipedia? since when is wikipedia a reliable source of anything?

i'll repeat what i say, hambone, clara, alprova, blackwater and all the rest...america is an except ional country, and will continue to be. the idea that american exceptionalism is dead will not be accepted by most americans. last week's elections proved that.

you're the minority..and that's a good thing.

the fact that you libs repeatedly find "insight" in bennett's cartoons says a great deal about your motivations.

the way you libs attacked the electorate last week for their decisions was disgraceful. attributing the dem defeats to ignorance, stuipidy and to fox news speaks to your lack of respect for those who don't agree with you.

the fact is,...i can easily see why obama won in 2008...easily..he came across as the better candidate....and he gave a better argument than mccain. the voters, bought that he would be a positive change and they voted accordingly. they weren't stupid, or ignorant..they made their decision based on the presentation they were given.

i completely disagree with that decision, but, i couldn't say the electorate was stupid at the time.

i suggest you libs do the same now.

November 12, 2010 at 8:21 a.m.
BobMKE said...

For alprova & acerigger

Speaking to students at Pasadena City College, Democrat Kerry said Monday, "You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well, and if you don’t you get stuck in Iraq.”

November 2005 Murtha announced that a military investigation into the Haditha killings had concluded that U.S. Marines had intentionally killed innocent civilians. "It's much worse than reported in Time magazine. There was no fire fight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. And that's what the report is going to tell." Bellowed Murtha: "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

“Now you have narco drug lords who are helping to finance the Taliban, so we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there,’’ Obama said.

You just don't make statements like the above unless they are checked out or competely investigated. It doesn't matter what happened later.

November 12, 2010 at 8:32 a.m.
Francis said...

good point, bob.

November 12, 2010 at 8:40 a.m.
Reardon said...

Thanks for the comments -- I have yet to read War is a Racket, but my growing anti-war sentiment is pushing me to do so.

Britain’s last World War I combat veteran, Harry Patch, died last year at the age of 111. He boasted that he hadn’t killed anyone in combat. "War isn’t worth one life," Patch said, it is "calculated and condoned slaughter of human beings." In his autobiography The Last Fighting Tommy, Patch wrote that "politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder." In the last years of his life, Patch warned some young naval recruits that they shouldn’t join.

From this article, which I recommend those against all wars read:

Although I disagree with how collectivists want government to forcefully confiscate the man's wealth by any means necessary, I have a growing sentiment towards the anti-war movement, after having the realization that war is only the neo-conservative version of the left's welfare state.

But the real question I wanted to pose is this: if we think war is a racket, should we really thank veterans for being willing to engage in such activity?

November 12, 2010 at 8:49 a.m.
hambone said...

Francis is the first cut and paste ranter i've ever seen! But then he has ranted so much that he doesn't have to type a new one.

November 12, 2010 at 9:57 a.m.
Francis said...

as i said a few days ago...last tuesday's election results back up what i say about how this country feels about being commandered the last two years by extremist liberals.....its not what they voted for 2 years ago...whenever you libs reveal yourselves for who you really are, anti-americans...the voters reject you.

you don't like my rants, hambone...too with it.

November 12, 2010 at 10:14 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Reardon Stupidly States: "But the real question I wanted to pose is this: if we think war is a racket, should we really thank veterans for being willing to engage in such activity?"

I can't remember when a statement on here has made me so angry. Statements like that are totally uncalled for, even with freedom of speech. Without the wars this country has endured and the people who fought in them, you would be living in a different country instead of the greatest place in the world.

So you should be shaking the hand of every veteran you meet and thanking him/her instead of making crap statements. You should be ashamed of yourself.

November 12, 2010 at 11:42 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis froths, "whenever you libs reveal yourselves for who you really are, anti-americans...the voters reject you."

Back to that old, if you are not a conservative you are a traitor malarky.

I guess that pretty well sums it up: the right wing nut jobs think we are at war with each other. They think the enemy is anybody who disagrees with them.

And when a Democrat is elected President, well, they voters were just fooled. Maybe it's the other way around.

NFJ, I think those comments were made in response to the piece "War Is A Racket." The statement, "if we think war is a racket, should we really thank veterans for being willing to engage in such activity?" is over the top. Soldiers must follow orders, period.

It would be better for all us if we entered into armed conflicts with a clear idea of why we have to go to war. What is the threat to America? What's the objective? More importantly, what is the exit strategy?

I agree with you. If the military begins to question every mission America is finished. We can't have soldiers questioning every oder.

Contrary to what Bush claimed, decisions cannot made in the field. Officers make assessments and offer their best strategic advice, but the President, our civilian commander-in-chief, has to make the call.

Remember how Harry Truman handled the defiant General MacArthur? It was a controversial decision but it goes to the heart of chain of command.

November 12, 2010 at 12:26 p.m.
Francis said...

"but the real question i wanted to pose is this: if we think war is a racket, should we really thank veterans for being willing to engage in such activity?"

exactly, nurseforjustice...that hits on the head....

you cannot seperate the soldier from the cannot condem the the mission without condeming the soldier...our military is all voluntary...

it's an all volunteer military......does that sink in?

no one is forced to join the military..

only in the liberal mind does it make sense to thank the soldiers who are carrying out a military mission that is wrong or's completely illogical.

it's cowardly...and a libs don't have the guts to criticize the soldiers.

the answer to mr. reardon's question, you should not thank them if you believe their mission is immoral or a's hypocritical

so follow through on it, you libs.

November 12, 2010 at 12:34 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I agree with you, nurse. Reardon's comment about not thanking veterans was inappropriate. People enlist to serve their country; that they may sometimes be sent into combat for questionable reasons diminishes neither their service nor their sacrifice.

Servicemen have died in avoidable situations or because of mistakes made by commanding officers. Going to war for the wrong reasons differs only in magnitude. A service person killed by friendly fire or in an accident is no less a hero than one killed by the enemy.

November 12, 2010 at 12:35 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

BW, I appreciate where you are coming from there and agree to an extent. I just don't think that statement should ever come from an americans mouth, or fingers in this instant.

lkeith, you do have such a way with words. It would have been misfortunate to lose you on this forum. Very glad you are still here.

November 12, 2010 at 12:49 p.m.
mmlj said...


Thanks to veterans, you have the freedom to post asinine comments on an online forum questioning whether or not we should thank veterans.

If you can convince every country and every person in the world that violence and war are not an alternative, we have no need for soldiers. Until then, thank every person who has served and does serve our country in protecting our freedoms.

November 12, 2010 at 1:39 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

AMEN, mmlj

Preach it. =)

November 12, 2010 at 1:51 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

How kind of you nurse. Thanks. I'd hate to lose the learning experience here, as crazy as it can be at times. As well, it helps to have the opinions of folks whose outlook, experience and philosophy differ from my own. (even when we disagree, there is something to be learned on all sides!) I will continue to lurk unless I feel compelled to respond. It tends to happen most often after indulging in an adult beverage, as I feel braver and more sure of myself.

November 12, 2010 at 2:09 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re Reardon’s Comment: “if we think war is a racket, should we really thank veterans for being willing to engage in such activity?”

Since a soldier does not have the power to declare war and unselfishly places his/her lives at risk in good faith, I believe he/she will always be worthy of our respect and gratitude.

To single them out in a question like the one you’ve posed seems unfair to me. I say this because your question essentially ignores the role that leadership plays in declaring an unjust war - along with any and all ethical responsibilities they have in regard to the public and the soldier.

It also seems to me that such a question ignores the role of that the public plays – even individuals like Lew Rockwell - in supporting unjust wars and unethical leaders.

November 12, 2010 at 2:14 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: A quote from another Soldier: "Former soldiers like McCord, who are against the war, get star-studded media attention, while the 99.99% who claim they didn't commit atrocities (like me) are ignored."

I'm not suggesting, nor has anyone else suggested that atrocities are the rule, but they do happen, and when they do, they need to be exposed. That is also a very negative byproduct of war.

Regarding Wuterich: "Why don't you withhold your condemnation until it's completed."

I'm not condemning anyone. The military charged the man. They are condemning him. Murtha's comments, at the time, were in response to a Time Magazine article, and were appropriate.

"John Murtha and his infamous "babykiller" comment"

Woah. John Murtha did not refer to any soldier as a "babykiller." Time Magazine outed the killings. He commented;

"It's much worse than reported in Time magazine. There was no fire fight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. And that's what the report is going to tell."

Various e-mails sent to the eight soldiers by the PUBLIC accused them of being "baby killers."

Maybe you're referring to the incident where John Murtha was accused of shouting "baby killer" to Bart Stupak while he was speaking on the House floor on March 21, 2010. It turned out that Republican Congressman Randy Neugebauer admitted that he was the one who actually was guilty of the shout.

"John Kerry, the guy who thinks if you don't study hard, you'll end up in Iraq. Never mind his questionable service record. You'll call him a hero. Others, including some who served with him, disagree."

I have never referred to John Kerry as a "hero." In fact, I think he was guilty of embellishing his record while serving, but that's another issue.

Every time anyone comes out to speak about atrocities committed during war, just like any cop who stands up to condemn a bad cop, they are branded by others as a "traitor."

Did you take opportunity to look at the photo? The man clearly had a child in his arms. So who's story is more credible? His or the deniers of the event?

It's not a total condemnation of all military troops when atrocities are claimed and proven to have taken place. But to deny that they occur is akin to sticking one's head in the sand.

November 12, 2010 at 2:16 p.m.
alprova said...

BobMKE wrote : "Speaking to students at Pasadena City College, Democrat Kerry said Monday, "You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well, and if you don’t you get stuck in Iraq."

How many college graduates do you think enlist in the military? Now be truthful. Was it a thoughtless, off the cuff comment? Sure. Is there a certain amount of truth contained in it? Absolutely, and you know it.

If you don't think so, then explain why it is, that the military's number one recruiting tactic is to offer a college education, should a soldier actually make it back home in one piece.

Why do they target our nation's high schools to attempt to recruit? Why do they target the unemployed? Why do they traditionally set up recruitment centers in dirt-poor neighborhoods?

Murtha addressed in a separate comment.

"Now you have narco drug lords who are helping to finance the Taliban, so we’ve got to get the job done there, and that requires us to have enough troops that we are not just air raiding villages and killing civilians, which is causing enormous problems there."

Is the statement untrue? How is it disrespectful in pointing out a factual truth? Those type of air raids took place and they were widely reported. Tens of thousands of innocent lives were taken in such a fashion and the world knows it.

"You just don't make statements like the above unless they are checked out or competely investigated. It doesn't matter what happened later."

It doesn't matter what happened?


November 12, 2010 at 2:32 p.m.
alprova said...

Reardon, your comment was wrong. I agree with everyone who called him out for it, and for every one of their cited reasons.

Soldiers do not always agree with all that they are ordered to do. They do it nonetheless. It's not their fault and it never has been.

Gotta get back to work...

November 12, 2010 at 2:38 p.m.
BobMKE said...


You did not comment on the Obama quote. Care to? It is my opinion that the above quotes (8:32am) were to garner votes at our troops expense. What do you call that? I call it despicable.

November 12, 2010 at 2:45 p.m.
Reardon said...

For those that think I'm asinine and a "liberal" for questioning probably the most protected class (the military)...

Define what "defense" means; what are we doing right now that constitutes defending the Republic, with our hundreds of bases worldwide, and our trillion dollar budget appropriated towards our military empire?

Is that defense?

Do you think the murdering of countless children, families, and property in the Middle East is morally justifiable?

Is it even logical to absolve a man of responsibility for committing such injurious offenses against these victims?

Just because you commit to the will of the State, does not mean you free yourself of personal judgement.

What is moral: doing the murderous duties the State commands you, or not consenting and standing down?

Read the story of Saint Martin of Tours:

I have nothing but great respect and honor for the man who defends his life, his family, his property, or his country against the barbarous actions of a tyrant or a criminal.

But, I'm sorry -- the Iraq and Afghanistan War in their current formations is not protecting our freedom; if anything, it's fertilizing the seeds for more jihadists.

And neither was the Vietnam War, World War I and the nuking of hundreds of thousands of Japanese, morally justifiable wars in terms of self-defense.

November 12, 2010 at 2:45 p.m.
hambone said...

The thing about Francis's rants is that his intelligence and mastery of the english language always comes shining thru!

November 12, 2010 at 2:58 p.m.
Reardon said...

To further clarify, of course our leadership -- specifically the Bush Administration -- are just as responsible for the horrendous acts of "collateral damage" that have been committed (just imagine your spouse or children dying by a predator drone being labeled as "collateral damage" for a moment...).

And if you don't agree with me, that's fine -- I once was a neo-conservative with an unquestioning respect for the military, too, prior to becoming ulta-libertarian.

Here are some books worthy of consideration if you want to explore the details of my ideas:

Pat Buchanan's most recent treatise on WW2:

Smedley Butler's classic anti-war read:


November 12, 2010 at 3:04 p.m.
mtngrl said...

Francis, your 12:34 p.m. post is the most asinine thing I have ever seen you write, and that's saying a lot.

It may be a volunteer military, but once in no one gets to pick and choose their deployment based on whether they agree with the mission or not. They must follow orders regardless. I know some that signed up for the national guard years back just expecting to be gone a weekend per month and a few weeks in the summer in order to get help paying for college. They ended up shipped off to Iraq for extended tours, and even retained under the stop-loss policies.

Your statements are utterly ridiculous, and your understanding of "the liberal mind" is abysmal.

November 12, 2010 at 3:05 p.m.
blackwater48 said...


While I don't necessarily agree with you last post, I was following your reasoning until you questioned the moral justification of "nuking of hundreds of thousands of Japanese."

Was it morally justifiable? Absolutely. If Truman hadn't ordered the bombings the War in the Pacific would have dragged on and on.

If he hadn't dropped the bombs we would have been forced to invade the island of Japan and defeat them village by village, town by town, city by city. One could reasonably argue the Japanese never would have surrendered, and civilian casualties would have far surmounted the loss of life at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It was brutal, no question about it, but invading Japan would have cost us AND THEM hundreds of thousands of more lives.

One nuke got their attention. The second demonstrated we were willing to bomb them back into the stone age if they didn't surrender.

After the War they started with the bombing of Pearl Harbor, our morally reprehensible nation began to rebuild their Country.

Can you imagine the scenario if the Japanese had won the War?

November 12, 2010 at 3:19 p.m.
Reardon said...


So, by your logic, since terrorists won't stop sending over jihadists with underwear bombs, shoe bombs, suitcase bombs, etc., we should just nuke the entire Middle East, Indonesia, and any predominantly Muslim country?

Because, if we don't, the war will drag on. Plus, our current wars are costing us thousands of American soliders' lives, right?

November 12, 2010 at 3:31 p.m.
blackwater48 said...


First of all, I was the only person in our circle of friends who firmly opposed the invasion of Iraq. I said at the time that over throwing Saddam wasn't worth one drop of American blood.

There were many heated discussions and today I'm disgusted with our twin wars. I thought at the time that going after bin Laden was our moral obligation to the thousands who died on 9/11.

But when you try to lump nuking the Japanese with current Middle East military policy you've lost the argument, in my humble opinion.

I wrote, "While I don't necessarily agree with your last post, I was following your reasoning until you questioned the moral justification of "nuking of hundreds of thousands of Japanese."

I didn't disagree with the first part of your post because I honestly don't know enough and haven't formed a cogent opinion. I appreciated what you said. I don't have an agenda and your post(s) are helping me reach my own conclusion.

So thanks for the posts.

November 12, 2010 at 3:53 p.m.
Francis said...

you cannot seperate the soldiers from the cannot thank the soldiers for their effort and then condem the mission.

if the soldiers carry out an immoral mission, then what are you thanking them for?

it makes no sense...except to the liberal mind... you libs have to be consistant...

you only thank our troops because you feel you have obama.

of course they have to follow orders...they go where they're told...

they know that when they volunteer...

the issue is whether you can thank the soldiers and condem the mission.

you can't .....

November 12, 2010 at 5:07 p.m.
mtngrl said...

Yes we can

November 12, 2010 at 5:10 p.m.
Francis said...

blackwater.....obama ran as "moderate"..and has been governiing, or, should i say rulling, as a extreme left wing radicle ever since he got elected.

the perfect example. he had to be other words, he lied.

case closed. if he would have stated during the campaign that he would have no problem with prison time or fines for those who do not purchase health insurance, he wouldn't have won.

actually, hambone, i write pretty well when i put the effort into it.

i think if you try ,you can get over the fact that i don't use capitalization, my punctuation is eratic and my typing is sloppy.

i live rent free in you liberal's heads.....doesn't take much to do that.

all i have to do is bring up the key words: tax cuts, american exceptionalism, muslim extremism/islamoterrorists, respect for the constitution, small businessman, and a few more...rights of the unborn....etc..

November 12, 2010 at 5:31 p.m.
Francis said...

mtngrl.....please, keep thanking them.

i guess going forward praising someone for their efforts in doing a good job at something illegal or immoral will be the norm, then, huh?

the wars are illegal and immoral, arent' they? ....bush was hitleresque... the soldiers are commiting said kerry, murtha and other libs...

boy......those nazi soldiers did a bang up job in trying to take over europe, huh? hitler, he was bad..but those nazi troops deserve a round of applause.

you can't have it both ways.

November 12, 2010 at 5:54 p.m.
Francis said...

if you're going to go to such lengths to compare bush to hitler and our mission as, many of you libs have...since 2001......well, then many, many soldiers have volunteered since then...and knew full well what's involved..or what they might have to do...and you thank them.....? ..sorry, that makes no sense.....

November 12, 2010 at 6:09 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re Francis Comment: “you cannot seperate the soldiers from the mission.”

Believe your thinking is a faulty, Francis. A soldier expects and deserves the highest standard of truthfulness from his/her political leaders when it comes to national security.

When political leaders lie you cannot hold a soldier responsible for those lies. While it’s clear that many unethical and cowardly political leaders try to use and hide behind the backs of soldiers, the reality is they alone are responsible for their lies and unethical conduct.

November 12, 2010 at 6:13 p.m.
Francis said...

not faulty at all........the over the top and non stop hammering of bush and the war in iraq has done you libs in regarding that point. to thank the troops at this point.. given your demonization of bush and the mission, just makes it look empty and hypocritical... nobody who volunteered since 2001....was unaware of the possibility of going to iraq or the era of the internet..and all other forms of communication and info...nobody's un- aware of what's going on...ignorant of the arguments for and against.......

they have to obey orders...of course..but you libs state as facts that they're being lied to. your argument in defense of thanking the troops is based on that they're being lied t o and they're just following orders...sorry, that doesnt work.

November 12, 2010 at 6:52 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis spewed, "if he would have stated during the campaign that he would have no problem with prison time or fines for those who do not purchase health insurance, he wouldn't have won."

So, you've got your panties in knot because people have to buy health insurance or pay a $695 fine? Today when the uninsured incur medical expenses who do you think pays for it? You and me through higher premiums. Feel sorry for the uninsured? Think they are having their liberty infringed upon?

The bill will help cover the 32 million uninsured Americans. If you keep your medical plan you will not be denied coverage for a pre-existing condition. Like, people being denied chemotherapy because they had the mumps once. (I exaggerate to make a point but not by much.)

You won't have to mortgage your home and declare bankruptcy to pay medical bills.

(Sigh) I don't know why I bother. Your brain works like a cuckoo clock with busted gears, but the little birdie pops out from time to time and spews some more goofy comments.

November 12, 2010 at 7:49 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

"i live rent free in you liberal's heads.....doesn't take much to do that."


You have a rather inflated view of yourself. I doubt anyone thinks about your posts when they aren't actively viewing this site.

In fact, it's hard to make much sense of them at all.

November 12, 2010 at 8:29 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

BW48, you are 100% correct about Japan. Many people may not know this, but the Japanese people, man, woman, AND child (there are videos and written documentation to prove this), were ALL taking up arms and preparing to fight the allies when/if we invaded. It is very possible that millions of people, us and them, would have died rather than the hundreds of thousands who did.

Even being as supportive of our troops as I am, I have rarely felt the amount of gratitude for our service men and women as I do when I learn new facts about WWII. It truly is amazing that if it weren't for all the allies in that war, this world would absolutely be a COMPLETELY different world today.

Please please please, anyone who hasn't studied that war in depth, do so. It will change your life.

November 12, 2010 at 8:37 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...


Your sorry butt is out numbered here. I would be so ashamed to be your dad or your son, or for that fact even to know you regarding your feelings toward our military. The mere fact you can sit there and bad mouth the military efforts (wars) is simply because of all the outstanding young men and women you so foolishly disdain, who have given their time and lives so you can do just that. I used to think you had some sense about you until now.

I guess you think because I served in peacetime that my service was totally useless. But I say, A good offense is a great defense. If they needed me now, I would go even tho I am too old (by military standards) and not physically able to perform the duties of the military.

You are pathetic. To everyone else, I am sorry that I have stooped to this level of posting, but he sure got me riled up.

November 12, 2010 at 10:20 p.m.
Clara said...

This isn't an apology, because I never thought Francis was stupid, but I have the opinion that the things he writes are stupid.

For the 5 cents someone left for me, I will make an unfounded psychiatric diagnosis of his problem.

I think his whole intelligence is aimed at protecting the boundries of his mindset and the frightening peril to use his mind in a more productive way, by resting and piercing his mind border with something more real.

No one can do that except themselves. I think he would be very frightened if he let that guard down.

I suppose I'm not being very clear about what I'm trying to say, but after all, like Charlie Brown's sister? friend?, the 5 cents gives you what someone paid for.


November 12, 2010 at 10:24 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re Francis’s Comment: “the over the top and non stop hammering of bush”

I believe when our leaders distort facts they need to be held accountable by the public – political affiliation should not matter. Our way of government will not succeed any other way.

When President Lyndon Johnson distorted the truth about Vietnam, he was hammered by the public, and rightfully so. When President Richard Nixon made false statements about Watergate, he too was hammered by the public, and, again, rightfully so.

In the case of President George Bush, he took this nation into war based on bogus information. As such, I believe he deserves to be held accountable and hammered by the public. The fact is none of the things that Bush told Congress and this Nation about Iraq turned out to be true:

"Iraq has stockpiled biological and chemical weapons, and is rebuilding the facilities used to make more of those weapons." (U.N. Address, 2002)

"The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.". . . “ Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." (Ohio Speech 2002)

"Our intelligence officials estimate that Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." (Union Address, 2003)

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." (Address to Nation, 2003)

November 12, 2010 at 11:14 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

mountainlaurel, thanks for providing the actual words from the actual speeches.

After the invasion and no WMD were found Bush then claimed that we invaded to establish a democratic ally in the middle east.

Then he said it was because Saddam was skimming the U.N. food for oil program.

He came up with yet another reason I just can't remember now (must have lost it in the last data dump) but in his new book he flip-flops back to invading Iraq because of WMD.

I think by and large that most people are on to him and that's why they go easy. I don't mean this to sound perjorative, but I think the public really knows that he doesn't really know. You know?

He's like the stupid cousin who shows up at family functions that everyone rolls their eyes at.

Personally, I don't know why Pelosi never initiated impeachment proceedings for treason because he lied to the nation about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and violated federal law by approving warrantless wiretaps on Americans.

November 12, 2010 at 11:57 p.m.
alprova said...

There were 22 reasons for invading Iraq cited in the document known as the "AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST IRAQ RESOLUTION OF 2002"

You can view it here;

And I'm going to defend Former President G.W. Bush, at least partially on one issue.

While he likely wanted Saddam Hussein's head, the intelligence that he cited and provided to Congress, was provided to him through Dick Cheney and was contrived and put together by Cheney's minions.

Those documents I referred to the other day, more than prove it. The President was not copied on those correspondences.

GWB was a pawn in all of this, at least up until the point that the "released" intelligence was given to him. He may have known that the sources were dubious, but he was not in on any manufacturing of it. The man is not that smart, nor did he have the contacts to get it. Cheney did.

And so did his father, but there have been no credible ties made to suggest that GHWB was in on it, and no one who would have been in a position to know, has ever made such a claim.

I'll be back home late Saturday night to respond to some more stuff that I simply don't have time to do now.

November 13, 2010 at 1:16 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re Alprova: "GWB was a pawn in all of this."

Can’t say I agree with you here, alprova. When a President gives a directive to “Go find me a way to do this,” his staff is going to oblige. If President Bush had shown any concern about the pretext involving the directive, his staff would have acted accordingly.

November 13, 2010 at 9:49 p.m.
kousuke said...

It's a simple but a great work, Mr. Bennett!

November 14, 2010 at 8:02 a.m.
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