published Tuesday, March 29th, 2011

Paternity

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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bret said...

Just to save some time, here are some of the usual comments: "Clay, you suck!" "Jesus was a Libertarian." "Why didn't Obama put Libya to a vote? Don't you Libs read NewsMax?" "Why won't Obama show us his Kenyan birth certificate?"

March 29, 2011 at 12:46 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

dumb cartoon...the government collects plenty of money...plenty. out of control spending is the problem......you libs are warped. it's never enough for you libs. you leftists don't like when those that work get to keep more of what they earn. you don't like the freedom that comes with getting to keep more of what one earns...all the choices.... that means independence..and not dependence on the government.

you don't spend more than you take in. make sense?

March 29, 2011 at 1:09 a.m.
canarysong said...

Another great cartoon, Clay! This is why we keep coming back!

March 29, 2011 at 1:18 a.m.

Bret It's cute all but one quote is monkey's. I think.

March 29, 2011 at 1:47 a.m.
fairmon said...

Stimulus money is supposed to increase demand and reduce unemployment therefore improve the economy. Tax cuts are supposed to be a longer lasting stimulus that increases demand and improves the economy. Why has neither one worked this time? They both worked but improved the wrong economy. Check the made in or country of origin on the label of every purchase of food, clothing, fuel, vehicles and electronics. When you look at that label think about how your purchase of that product will help the American economy. What our leaders fail to understand is our buying of imported products will only help to the economy of the producing country. In the U.S. only those transporting it to the retailer and the retailer selling it benefit. The jobs and tax revenue created by those two old "economy jump starters" fail and fail to return the lost revenue or stimulus money spent as proponents promised they would. Why did Warren Buffet, one of the richest men in the world, buy a rail road when he could have bought any U.S. company he wanted to own? He understands the dynamics of the economy which is why he is so wealthy. Why did the administration think the stimulus money would create jobs and drop unemployment to under 8%? They fail to understand the dynamics of today's world markets.

The exodus of American companies to that move their home office and management to other countries not only reduces tax revenue from those companies but from their highest paid employees that are also relocated and no longer pay U.S. taxes. The anomaly our brilliant leaders fail to see is that the highest tax rate in the world drives the large international corporate tax sources to where they are treated better while the American consumer purchases products at the lowest price. Our leaders think it is only the lower wages which is not true.

A congressman interviewed on CBS about the corporate tax rate issue and the U.S. having the highest rate in the world responded we just can't afford to reduce the business tax rates or make changes with our economy in the shape it is in. How brilliant is that? American made products would cost less and increase demand at home and increase exports therefore more jobs for Americans. Corporations would move their headquarters back to the U.S. where they prefer to be. Tax revenue would increase. Instead our leaders show favor to bankers, brokers and insurance companies that provide very few of the kind of jobs needed.

Who is really at fault? Both the proponents of no spending and the proponents of ill advised tax reductions for those with higher individual incomes, both are of little to no help to the economy. A more competitive corporate tax rate would make a significant difference by making U.S. produced products more competitive and creating jobs. Stop the favoring of some businesses to the detriment of others through deductions, reductions incentives. Set a flat corporate tax rate on profits after cost of about 15%.

March 29, 2011 at 2:17 a.m.
GlacierClipper said...

Even with all the talk of cutting spending our governmens (city, county, state and federal) continues to spend money for stupid reasons and causes.

All political parties involved are to blame for this insane mess with over spending.

March 29, 2011 at 2:40 a.m.

harp

Am I to understand you to mean the US taxes business higher than anyone else? I have read where Ireland, England, and most of Europe tax much higher than we do but with alot more social programs coming from the tax money.

March 29, 2011 at 5:14 a.m.
fairmon said...

It is our fault. A proposed solution. Increase all tax brackets even if the higher bracket are increased more than the lower to a level that generates sufficient revenue to pay for planned spending plus a debt reduction of 2% of all revenue. People would realize the true cost of their demands and support for programs and government spending.

Pay as you spend it. No more teller 24 stops or new credit cards. The current generation is living well from the prior generations sacrifices and are now passing the cost of their good life on to future generations. It is time to shut up and pay up for a life time of excesses. It started around 1928 wuth a "chicken in every pot and a car in every yard" campaign promises.

Members of both parties, conservative and liberal, tell me why this is not fair and should not be done. How large are you willing to let the debt become and take more and more of tax revenue to pay the interest on our debt? The saying comes to mind "If not now when? If not us who?".

Some inisit the government must feed, clothe and provide shelter for those that don't have those things and we must educate the ignorant whether they want to be or not. Others say we have to assure the American dream through subsidized high risk loans for homes. Then, there are those demanding repair of the countries infrastructure. Then those insisting we must support the arts, the parks, recreation, crafts and education. Don't forget those that support a strong military and the cost of the industrial military complex. Some insist that every American have good health care coverage.

All are well intentioned even if not essential. I will pay my share as long as everyone else does but please don't put me, my children and grand children further in debt. Let's pay as we go. If you are not willing to do that how can you justify demanding those things you think should be provided by the government?

March 29, 2011 at 6:26 a.m.
fairmon said...

brainerdrebels67,

Japan was the only country with a higher rate than the U.S. but they recently reduced theirs moving the U.S. to the number one position.

Ireland is one of the countries many corporations are moving to for their lower corporate tax rates. Google is a well known American company that is based there. Trans ocean is another that moved there from their Houston, Texas headquarters. It is a large and staggering number. The only thing congress has done is try to develop legislation that may prevent them from moving. They are realizing that is not possible since their laws will not apply to anyone that is in a foreign country. It may force some to shut down all American operations. How smart is that? Keep in mind most of our legislators and administrators are lawyers with essentially no business experience.

March 29, 2011 at 6:40 a.m.
hambone said...

Cooperate tax rates don't mean much if the net result after loopholes is 0% !

March 29, 2011 at 6:47 a.m.
sandyonsignal said...

I think they should name the baby after " OIF" (Operation Iraqi Freedom). The unfunded Bush war will cost taxpayers 3 trillion dollars in the end.

Of course, Mr. Tax Cut bears the responsibility for this baby. Before he entered the picture in 2001 (weeks after George's inauguration) , all was stable and sound. His presence is why we have this baby. Time to get Mr. Tax Cut a vasectomy.

March 29, 2011 at 6:50 a.m.
inquiringmind said...

Harp, The reason all the jobs went off shore is the same reason Walmart is alway full of shoppers. You won't pay the price for goods made here. Our wages and costs are higher. You like your higher standard of living. So you can pay more taxes to fix things, or bring jobs back and pay more at the store. Name your poison.

If the tax cut for the millionaires was removed, it would cover the cost of the so-called unmet need of Social Security according to many economists. If you think the stimulus money went to help other countries, why not go to Ireland, Greece, Spain or Portugal, to name a few? Few have any idea about how close this economy came to another great depression (not to excuse the break we gave the bankers).

March 29, 2011 at 6:55 a.m.
woody said...

Well, I was going to say it still takes "Two to Tango", in the traditional way, anyway..doesn't it??

And then I am reminded we are in a 'new age of enlightenment', or so I am led to believe..I think.

But when 'calmer heads' prevail we may all rest assured the "best is yet to come", and that's how all of this got started in the first place.

The preceding was taken from the "Gospel according to Mumbo and Jumbo." Now, we'll just wait and see who "the blessed event" looks like and then we'll know who's to blame.

Who said "The Monkey" was the only one allowed to speak nonsense here??

TTFN..Woody

March 29, 2011 at 7:17 a.m.
RufusTFirefly said...

assume your house hold has debt. house note. car payment. medical bills. electricity. gas. water. house hold incidentals.

you and your wife or husband work. two income family.

to deal with the problem of all your debt, your husband quits his job.

sound familiar?

March 29, 2011 at 7:22 a.m.
MTJohn said...

I think the point that many are missing is the fact that conception takes two.

Both tax cuts and excessive spending have contributed to the problem. We have borrowed and spent our way into a significant federal debt. And, we have borrowed and spent our economy into the tank.

March 29, 2011 at 7:23 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

FINALLY, a decent cartoon from bennett! I still don't agree with his liberal bedwetter premise, but I have to admit, he got a smile out of me!

March 29, 2011 at 8:14 a.m.

A tax cut is not something that "must be paid for." It is a reassessment of which sector is more likely to be productive with our income resources: the government or the private sector. In other words, which sector is a better investment over the long run?

Unfortunately, we have been conditioned 1.) to succumb to the green monster of envy towards those who have “more than they need” (i.e. more than WE have) and 2) to believe the catchy sales pitches of political celebrities and their media pawns.

So we cut off our own feet by trusting slick politicians more than we trust people who risk their own resources to create markets, businesses, and jobs. When it comes to light that many in the private sector are corrupt or greedy (and that they dress better and take more vacations than we do), we’re so indignant and distraught that we ask our elected officials to go out and buy us some flowers and candy. We tell them we’re sorry for ever doubting their ability to sort things out for us, give us jobs, send our kids to college, loan us money to buy a house, and provide us with cell phones, video games, trips to Destin, dinners at Red Lobster, weight reduction, retirement, and meds to cope with the sordid conditions into which Americans are born. What’s that, dear politician / media pawn? You say you’re out of money? No problem. Just put it on my neighbor’s tab. His car is larger and newer than mine AND I SIMPLY CAN’T STAND IT ANYMORE!

March 29, 2011 at 8:31 a.m.

In terms of understanding what’s fair and who’s to blame about taxes and spending, it’s like we’re attending sex education courses taught by pimps and prostitutes. Seeing a tax hike as anything other than counter-productive to growing an economy is on the order of fallacies like: “I'm going to blow my paycheck on junk I don’t need in order to ‘help the economy,’ or “Buying lottery tickets will improve education.”

They're simply bumper stickers and advertising slogans. They keep politicians, cartoonists, and advertisers in business, but the taxpayer gets knocked up in the process.

March 29, 2011 at 8:32 a.m.
fairmon said...

hambone,

You are right. How many making a profit pay zero taxes? I assume you think they use loop holes to hide profits and avoid taxes? If so would you agree with abolishing all deductions, reductions, incentives and other political tools of manipulation and set a corporate tax rate on all profits at 15%? Most of those paying little to no taxes are financial and service institutions which are favored by politicians.

inquiringmind,

Don't buy the political rhetoric. Why are so many U.S. companies moving to Canada, Switzerland, Ireland etc. where there is little difference in wages, in fact Japan's average wage is higher than the U.S.

Increasing taxes on those making over $250,000 would have no affect on the social security fund. Social security accounting is social security in and social security payments out. Social security is a ponzi scheme where those working now pay those that are drawing. The problem is fewer people working per person that is receiving social security. The unfunded liabilities economist and politicians refer to projects that ratio worsening. Increase employment, adjust eligibility ages per the actuarial tables, increase the cap on which social security is paid. These steps solve the projected problem but they cost a politician votes.

I have no issue with paying more taxes if others do likewise. See my post at 6:26 a.m. Would you support that proposal? I know how close to an economic collapse we were, do you know what we are facing in the not too distant future if our congress fails to act soon to reduce unemployment and increase competitiveness of U.S. businesses?

March 29, 2011 at 9:03 a.m.
mymy said...

Our tax code is a big part of the problem. When companys like GE have hugh profits and pay 0% taxes because of loopholes, it's both parties fault over the years. Our government is broke, our society is broke and the country is broke. How long much longer can this country survive all of this? Obama has really added to the problems with his policies/personal agenda. Although there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides, I blame mostly the left. A lot of problems started the Johnson's Great Society that got people addicted to an free lunch life style and it continue thru several generations of famiiesl. It became a handout and not a hand up.

March 29, 2011 at 9:07 a.m.
bret said...

The big companies aren't really moving, they are still here. They simply open an office in another country and call that their headquarters to take advantage of the lower corporate tax rates.

TransOcean is headquartered in Switzerland, not Ireland as Harp claimed. "60 Minutes" did a good story on this just last week. They went to that office in Switzerland and found an empty office with a lone receptionist.

March 29, 2011 at 9:19 a.m.
delmar said...

Hopefully Dr China doesn't recommend inducing labor.

Senator Bernie Sanders offering up some solutions. http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/03/bernie-sanders-top-10-tax-avoiders

March 29, 2011 at 9:24 a.m.
fairmon said...

mymy,

GE is not a good example. They were on the brink of bankruptcy and actually received TARP money to avoid it. Their financial arm was in the same situation as the large banks and was draining them dry. There are a lot of references by politicians about "loop holes" but they fail to give examples. Many posting here use the term and assume honesty on the politicians part. Can you give me one example of a "loop hole" businesses use to avoid taxes?

I agree, the system is broken and Johnson's guns and butter philosophy was a continuation of an already shaky system that was living on borrowed money. We are rapidly creating a larger dependent society instead of a country of creative and capable independents.

March 29, 2011 at 9:27 a.m.
fairmon said...

Bret,

You are right sixty minutes did a good segment on the issue. TransOcean, probably in response to that 60 minutes segment, have now moved their higher management to Switzerland. Others are doing this also. The move and relinquishing their U.S. citizenship avoids paying the U.S. rates on profits earned in other countries. Many international corporations earn a higher percent of their profits from international interest than in the U.S. There will likely be more this year and further reduce U.S. corporate tax revenue.

March 29, 2011 at 9:35 a.m.
sage1 said...

One major problem with all of us is this: We want high wages for ourselves, but when it comes time to spend our money, we want cheap prices. So when we shop we buy based on price and not WHERE IT'S MADE. We buy things made in Shargi-la, Hong Kong, China, Vietnam. It doesn't matter to us that by not buying items made in the USA and supporting this countries labor force whenever we can (even though it costs more), we instead buy things made overseas to the detriment of our economy. This ultimately results in layoffs and manufacturing moving to these countries.

There are many websites that list manufacturers making goods of all kinds here in the USA. I know, because I go to them often. Yeah they do cost more, but you just might be surprised how small the difference is. The people that work there and make the goods sold are making a LIVING wage with benefits just like we all want to do. Many of these manufacturers are not Union so don’t go there. I have bought living room lamps, very nice ones as a matter of fact, for less than $30 more than the cheap ones made in china at Wal-Mart. New Balance running shoes? $80 made in China, but the ones they still make in the USA are about $110 but will wear 1/3 longer. If the billions of dollars spent by the USA consumer was spent on USA made goods a lot of our economic woes would evaporate even if you took automobiles out of the picture.

March 29, 2011 at 10:24 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Ha.

Change the system so spending is tied to its source. In theory, Social Security taxes go to Social Security. (In practice, the 1st CPA elected to Congress glanced at the books and said Guys, if we ran a business this way we'd all be in jail.) So, you want new spending? Raise a tax for the specific purpose of paying for it, or cut spending somewhere else and designate some existing tax for the new purpose. No tax, no spending. On existing spending, bring 2% a year or so under this system: here's the spending, here's the tax to pay for it, and if the tax isn't enough the spending stops. It might take awhile, but eventually taxes will be linked to spending and the budget will balance.

Jesus is libertarian: on whom did He impose taxes?

March 29, 2011 at 10:56 a.m.
sage1 said...

Libertarians4Freedom

When people have jobs more people have money to spend thus, more taxes are being paid. If people are taxed less, even more money is available to spend and even more taxes are paid. I agree. But this scenario starts with JOBS. Americans having JOBS to pay the taxes, to get the tax cuts to have the money to spend in the first place. So, it’s just as important what country these industries you speak of are located. It’s true that here in the USA manufacturers can’t compete with a workforce being paid 10$ a day. If our economy is going to survive, we all are going to have to take control of where our money goes and think about the workforce our money is going to support and pay a price that will support a living wage for our American workforce. The bottom line is that the American consumer drove the manufacturers out of this country by buying based entirely on PRICE and away went the jobs. If all wholesalers you are talking about are ordering all of their products from industries outside of the USA, then where are the jobs going to come from for Americans to have the money to start this circle of events?

March 29, 2011 at 11:18 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

only...only irresponsible spending is the problem.. nothing more...

tax cuts? as if individuals, small businesses, large corporations, wealthy individuals and everything in between haven't paid enough.

ludicrous.

the assumption is that when we get to keep more of what we earn then it causes a problem..that's complete idiocy.....

that would be like an individual spending way more than they earn...buying all kinds of things they can't afford...then going to their employer and asking for more money to make up for it .

the source for revenue for the government is the taxpayer. we cough up plenty...the government needs to spend more wisely.....

to say tax cuts contribute to our debt implies the more of our income we get to keep the more of problem it causes....

our government top heavy with fat asses and entitlement....simple as that.

March 29, 2011 at 11:19 a.m.
limric said...

It would be easier to pay off the national debt overnight than to neutralize the long-range effects of our national stupidity” : Frank Zappa

Another great cartoon Clay. You should be added to the N.Y.Times syndicated cartoonist roster.

March 29, 2011 at 11:22 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

that's real profound, limric..yeah, frank zappa...wow..

great insight from a man who named his kids moon unit and dweezil...

March 29, 2011 at 11:29 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Sage - you make a great argument, EXCEPT those who have benefited most from the tax breaks have been using the resulting wealth to relocate and pay wages at indentured rates. Lots of jobs resulted from "trickle down" economics but none of those employed are paying taxes in this country.

March 29, 2011 at 12:07 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

the core believe of you lefties is that the government is always more trustworthy than the private sector.

that's hogwash..

obama encouraging brazil to drill for oil offshore and become a major oil exporter to the united states, while at the same time he condems and tries to shut down the oil industry in this country is the perfect example of the twisted thinking of you lefties.

March 29, 2011 at 12:54 p.m.
canarysong said...

sandyonsignal, RufusTFirefly,...great posts!

Sage1;

You are right. Consumer dollars wield power. It is time for us all to take responsibility for our choices, both large and small. If we stop buying products from companies that take jobs overseas and that move out of the country to avoid US taxes, then eventually it will stop happening.

March 29, 2011 at 1:02 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp wrote;

"The current generation is living well from the prior generations sacrifices and are now passing the cost of their good life on to future generations. It is time to shut up and pay up for a life time of excesses."

"Some insist the government must feed, clothe and provide shelter for those that don't have those things..."

--- No one is suggesting that younger generations be saddled with the expenses of anyone else's "excesses", or "living the good life". Liberals do, however, want to make sure that the disabled and the elderly do not go hungry; that they have access to necessary medical care; that they do not have to choose each month between paying for life-sustaining medications or buying food; and that they do not have to seek shelter under a bridge or in a cardboard box.

Most civilized societies have made care for the needy a priority to which everyone is willing to contribute. The 'sense of entitlement' which conservatives love to decry would be better used to describe the selfish 'me first, screw everyone else' mentality that so often lies at the core of the victim-blaming disregard for those who find themselves needing assistance (I am NOT including you here, harp).

March 29, 2011 at 1:04 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp wrote;

"How large are you willing to let the debt become and take more and more of tax revenue to pay the interest on our debt? The saying comes to mind "If not now when? If not us who?"

--- Harp, I'm afraid that you've fallen into a common trap here.... using a partial quote and misappropriating it to suit your purpose. (it's a good idea not to misquote famous rabbis in the presence of Jews!) The full quote is.....

"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am not for others, what am I? And if not now, when?" - Rabbi Hillel, 110 BCE - 10 CE?

Hillel's words have endured for so long because his entire life was a model of humility and compassion. He was known for his kindness, his generosity, and his concern for humanity. He gave up a life in a wealthy family to spend years in poverty devoted to study, later achieving a respected position as a scholar and a sage.

"Love of man was considered by Hillel as the kernel of the entire Jewish teaching. When a heathen who wished to become a Jew asked him for a summary of the Jewish religion in the most concise terms, Hillel said: "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow man: this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary" (Shab. 31a). With these words Hillel recognized as the fundamental principle of the Jewish moral law the Biblical precept of brotherly love (Lev. xix. 18)." And this is one of the first examples of a version of what commonly came to be referred to as the 'golden rule'.

"Hillel's wife one day gave the whole of a meal, prepared in honor of a guest, to a poor man, and at once prepared another. When she excused herself for the delay and explained its cause, Hillel praised her for her action" (Derek Ereẓ v.).

And Hillel went even further than any of us would deem necessary...

"Thus a man of good family who had become poor Hillel provided with a riding horse, in order that he might not be deprived of his customary physical exercise, and with a slave, in order that he might be served" (Tosef., Peah, iv. 10; Ket. 67b)

So, you see, Hillel would more accurately be quoted in defense of programs for the sick, the needy, and the elderly than the manner in which you tried to use the partial mis-quotation. I don't want to make you feel picked on, but Hillel was someone that I admire very much and he should not be misrepresented.

March 29, 2011 at 1:05 p.m.
mymy said...

Harp

Jeff Immelt, CEO of GE which owns NBC, was a big backer of The Obama and has reaped unfair benefits (political payoffs)including the TARP money along with others who should have been left to sink or swim just like us, the taxpayer. That is what most of us are doing now as a result of an unqualifed President with an anti- American agenda. He is also the Administrations Jobs-Council Czar. Sure smells to me. Of course, GE is not the only company to benefit from loopholes. It has been in the news as a result of the Obama ties.

Close the corporate loopholes, lower corporate tax rates and do anything to try to force/encourage company's back to this country with JOBS and to pay their fair share! The citizens need a break! We cannot survive MORE government dependency/intrustion in/on our lives. We are a sinking civilization right now. Can We the People wake up in time to save ourselves? Time will tell, but I'm not holding my breath.

March 29, 2011 at 1:33 p.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Actually folks, bennett got this one right. Tax Cut is the voice of reason explaining (righfully so) to out-of-control Spending that she caused the mess she's in now. Good call bennett. Never knew you were for tax cuts. You fooled us.

March 29, 2011 at 1:44 p.m.
mtngrl said...

whatsnottaken, so you are saying that the debt is caused by immaculate conception?

As Woody stated earlier, it takes two to tango....

March 29, 2011 at 1:57 p.m.
limric said...

Ooh, my previous post wasn’t meant to be profound. Sorry. But then again, I guess some didn’t get it because – umm, what was that he said about long- range effects?
I might be interesting to know (but who cares) that Frank Zappa made a lot of music, influenced many writers, composers, poets, musicians and scared more than a few politicians. He made a ton of money and had a lot of fun while doing it. All the while never touching drugs and was almost a teetotaler. Oh, and he went before the Senate and PMRC in defense of free speech. How many can say the same of their own contemporary champions? Yea, I didn’t think so.

Stupidity has a certain charm - ignorance does not. Don’t be too tough on your own simplicity. It's part of what makes America great. If Americans weren't incomparably prosaic, how come they keep electing Republicons? Case Closed.

March 29, 2011 at 2:05 p.m.
potcat said...

60 million a day spent on LIBYA! Yeah, lets cut all energy assistance,Wic for babbies and pregnant women that are poor and it goes on and on.All the while we give tax cuts to the Rich and the CRIMINALs get to keep in place tax loops that has been created by their paid off minions. Repubs and sorry to say the Democratic Prsident and congress that voted for extending Bushies tax cuts for the RICH. Oh, they have these wonderfull tax havens over seas that the RICH get to hide the trillions they OWE in taxes to America and how lovely that they get to do it. Cut taxes for the RICH , cut spending for the POOR and middle class. My nephew got laid off from Dell in Nashville at Christmas and just found out its permanet.Dell is going to Mexico. How GREAT is that. Tennessee has the highest sales tax in the US,do you think that hurts the RICH,it hurts the POOR.Don't give me THE BIG LIE about how regulations and decent wages or Unions cause the BIG COmpanines to go else where... I take that back in third world nations they don't pay decent wages or have regulations, CHILD labor is so good for these GREEDY Bastards and AMERICA loves comsuming cheep stuff. Republicans LOVE Corporate WELFARE and if what Tennesse has done for Volkswagen isn't Socialism... Corporate WElFARe; well they are no such thing!

March 29, 2011 at 2:40 p.m.
MTJohn said...

SeaMonkey - the core belief of conservatives is that the private sector is always more trustworthy than government. That also is hogwash.

The behavior of the private sector is much easier to predict, but I would not equate predictability with trustworthiness. Consistently, the private sector behaves in the selfish interest of the private sector and almost never in the best interest of the country or in the collective best interest of Americans.

March 29, 2011 at 2:43 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

no, limric..case not closed...not in the least bit.

democrats/liberals are beneficieries of ignorance and greed. their mantra of "you deserve".."you're entitled to" and "you're guaranteed" has been adopted by generations and has created an entitlement class of greedy jackasses who just want to be taken care of.

obama is living proof...a man with no portfolio, with an anti-american pedigree, who despises the constitution, hates capitalism/prefers facism or communisim... and only knows how to make a speech, is elected president. keeping people ignorant of facts and history by dumbed down/anti-american public schools and the liberal media insures that democrats keep getting elected.

the liberals mo is ...keep the people lazy by promising them things, keep them ignorant by keeping facts and history from them, take as much of their income as you can to give them less choices and keep them scrambling to pay taxes.

the liberal mindset..which appeals to the lazy and the ignorant...is the reason why we have the debt we do.

so case not closed, limric...at all

March 29, 2011 at 3:14 p.m.
whatsnottaken said...

No no mtngrl. Spending was screwing around and got in trouble herself. She's irresponsible. Tax cut is the guy coming to the rescue of this irresponsible child.

March 29, 2011 at 3:22 p.m.
limric said...

What Clays cartoon beautifully illustrates is that conservatives (and those who negotiate with them) like to talk about all kinds of values, these are always subordinated to a single, unchanging and uncompromised goal: class warfare.

Think about it. Reagan and Bush, Republicans in the House, the Senate and the mainstream conservatard media talk incessantly about fiscal responsibility and deficit spending, BUT, these principles fly out the window when it comes time to cut taxes on the rich. It wasn’t long ago that House Ways and Means Committee chair Dave Camp stated that one of the biggest problems with our tax system is that too few poor people pay income tax.

The purpose of Republican class war is to force localities to slash their budgets for services like infrastructure, public schooling etc—a form of transfer payment from the wealthy to the rest of us. But even more, it will force localities to default on their pension obligations, thereby destroy the credibility of the public unions that negotiated them. Aha! Note that they are doing this at a moment when recovery is imperiled by the loss of public-sector jobs. But forget the recovery; Republicans are sponsoring a bill to demand that state and local governments recalculate the likely size of their pension obligations in light of the downturn or risk the loss of the right to issue tax-exempt bonds.

Some Midwestern towns already ceased taking care of the trees and grass on public property and ran out of money for street plowing. Localities are getting little help from the state legislatures. They're down to four-day workweeks and the elimination of parks, senior centers etc. So, if there's anything else that happens, they will be over the edge. Prichard Alabama recently ceased mailing monthly pension checks, in violation of state law. Republican hero Governor Chris Christie, refused to fork over the $3+ billion due its pension plan this year, but is all to happy to speak of ‘shared sacrifice’ when it comes to their Wall Street bond holders.

Republican class warfare strategy is that by refusing to bail out the states, local governments will be forced to go the route of cutting services, pensions or both. And I’m willing to bet they will soon demand legislation allowing states to declare bankruptcy and let the unions fight it out in the courts. Thus, the fiscal crisis on the state level provides a perfect opportunity to defund a key Democratic interest group. This is happening right before our very eyes.

President Obama, forgetting as always which side elected him, chose to reinforce this right-wing narrative by caving on tax cuts primarily for the very wealthy and then unnecessarily froze the salaries of all federal workers. As always, he caved on that too and elicited not a single conservative concession in return. So willing to fight six thousand miles away - only lip service at home.
The Revolution will be televised.

March 29, 2011 at 3:29 p.m.
canarysong said...

Francis/Monkey;

I like to visit a humor website each day to read a few jokes; laughing is so healthy. Thanks for your post; it saves me some time today. The priceless gem...

"obama is living proof...a man with no portfolio..."

He graduated from HARVARD Law School magna cum laude and was president of the Harvard Law Review (a very prestigious position!). Rather than pursuing a high paid position in a law firm upon graduation, he chose to devote several years to community organizing, serving the needs of the inner city poor. He then worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School (from 1992 to 2004), and served three terms in the Illinois Senate (from 1997 to 2004).

What have YOU accomplished, Monkey?

You continue to criticize him as unqualified, yet I would assume that you think highly of Ronald Reagan. Besides serving as governor of California, his most notable accomplishment was co-starring with a monkey in an otherwise forgettable movie....... Hey, wait a minute....... was that YOU?

March 29, 2011 at 4:08 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Great cartoon Clay! Now Sea Monkey, look at Harp's postings. This is how we Libs, lefties and socialists as you refer to everyone, call explaining a position using facts. Granted, working with facts will prevent you from your maniacal postings in this forum, but it would add some credibility to your argument. Harp is right, plain and simple. It has become almost impossible to buy American and that is OUR fault. The global economy in which we co-exist in has shifted our country's economy to primarily a consumption economy. Imagine there are two houses. One house grows fruits and vegetables, raises cattle, pigs, and has a large pond with plenty of freshwater fish. This house produces enough food to feed two houses. Now, the second house does not produce food, raise cattle, or have a pond. They then become dependent on the house providing their necessities. The first house can now determine how much to sell their goods to the second house, because they control the supply. We represent the second house in this story. In fact, the only things made in America now are Toyotas, Kias and Volkswagons. The bad side of that is, those profits go overseas. We made our bed, now we have to lie in it. No politician can resolve this. No President can resolve this. Until we change our buying and consumption habits, our economy will never rebound as everyone had hoped. We will have to endure tough spending cuts, trim even more waste, have earmark reform, and give the President the Line Item Veto that every President since 1933 has requested. Nearly every state that operates under a balanced budget also has the line item veto available as a tool for their Governor. The Contract with America from the 1994 Republican election sweep called for the Line Item Veto. However once it was passed, it was the same Republicans and even a handful of Democrats whose districts were affected by the cuts that sued and had the law revoked. While I agree that it is giving the President more authority, it also gives him more responsibility and places ownership of the budget directly on his shoulders. Tough choices my friends, tough choices. Until we change the way we do business, well you know how this story is going to end.

March 29, 2011 at 4:21 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

and which side did elect obama, limric?

"independents" voted for him overwhelmingly because they thought they were voting for a moderate. he acted like a moderate and the liberal media pushed that image....even republicans voted for him. many democrats voted for him based on that they thoughthe was a moderate.......

the fact is, limric....when an extreme liberal/lefty runs as that, in most of the country they have no chance of winning.... probably 95% if the country. obama had to decieve, with the help of the media, in order to win. nov. 2nd 2010 proved that the electorate didn't like being duped....

only in crappy socialist thugocracies like chicago can someone like obama win all the time...

"class war"...that's a laugh....democrats/libs have nothing left but the class envy card...nothing... you libs are the master of pushing class warfare..

people in this country are so dumbed down and zombie-like from decades of liberal crap that they think there's just one big pile of money and whoever grabs it is the winner......they have no conception that new money can be made and new opportunities can be created....

March 29, 2011 at 4:25 p.m.
limric said...

Canarysong, Your lampooning of the brine shrimp shows imagination and warrants much merit.

His opinions are held with a ferverent passion, but are always those for which no good ground exists; indeed that passion is the measure of the brine shrimps lack of rationality.

March 29, 2011 at 4:32 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

timbermoron..the man who thinks it's not christ-like to be a conservative and defend it.....and is shocked by my tone.....while on the other hand voting for democrats/liberals who are responsible for the very unchrist-like act of abortion....or, to put in a more graphic way, timbermoron..the murder of the unborn.

March 29, 2011 at 4:40 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

again a man with no portfolio...nothing to show that he can lead or govern....

being an academician doesnt' qualify someone to be president...that's not the real world.

sit him down in an interview peppered with some challenging questions and he's pretty much incoherent...

there's no record of anything of worth he wrote...or of his grades.......t here's question whether he even wrote his books........

March 29, 2011 at 4:48 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Whoops-foil hat adjustment needed again on aisle three...

March 29, 2011 at 5:05 p.m.
fairmon said...

Canarysong,

I wasn't attempting to quote anyone in particular and certainly not someone in a time that can't compare to where we are. I had heard those words and they do mean something. "If not now when? and if not us who"? I propose NOW, the who will be our children and grand children and beyond if this country survives the practice of providing and borrowing to pay for it. You keep avoiding the question regarding how high you will allow the debt to become and take more tax revenue to pay the interest. Are you personally willing to report every dollar of income and pay a higher rate if those with higher incomes take an even bigger hit? I am willing to pay the same as others in my income bracket and I am convinced if we don't the proverbial stuff will soon hit the fan and you will see those poor souls and others suffer more than you can imagine. Placing blame such as some do on the other party or on the wars doesn't cut it, the problem is still there and still real. Compassion is wonderful and I am compassionate as you or anyone else but a dose of reality has to be included.

Quit speed reading. I am not saying stop anything I am saying pay as we go. You, me and every other person with a dollar. I don't care if you provide those poor people you talk about with the finest of everything, I don't and have never objected to helping. If deemed necessary and preferred also take care of those dregs on society that won't work when they could and won't seek an education when provided but for god's sake quit borrowing money to do it. Increase all tax rates and take all you want to from the more wealthy but stop the insane practice of borrowing from countries that have sovereign wealth funds (governments with excess cash on hand such as China, Saudi Arabia, and a few others) that are buying our companies and property as an investment. Quit lumping businesses that play by the rules in with those you think don't and quit running them off.

People are in denial and have near zero understanding of just how serious it is. If we have to pay as we go it will at least make us all aware of the cost of all those things we demand of our poorly managed and incompetent government. I would like to see legislation passed that prohibited the government from borrowing money or having any debt. Your example of people deciding between medicine or food is what the government should have to do. The government has the option of confiscating more from all of us to meet the demands of their supporters and if necessary they should do that. Stopping cheating on taxes and those not reporting income would make a big difference. The government has no idea how much income is not reported and how many people do some work for cash.

March 29, 2011 at 5:05 p.m.
fairmon said...

Limric,

Could it be the wealthy pay too little in taxes and too many of the lower income pay nothing? Two and now almost three wars and an exponentially growing government cost a lot of money. Our elected elite can't agree on anything to address the problem that might cost them a vote or two. They cry about how complicated things are. Who in the hell complicated them? They did all the complicating so they can and should do the simplifying. Perhaps we have elected too many lawyers.

March 29, 2011 at 5:16 p.m.

"sit him down in an interview peppered with some challenging questions and he's pretty much incoherent..."

Fox news cut away from the feed for "analysis" so I am sure you didn't see when the Republicans invited President Obama to address their congressional House delegation in Baltimore.

He made them all look like fools. No notes, no teleprompter, just his brain. I won't waste time posting the links because you won't look at them, but it's on the web.

"The net effect is that Obama looked serious, reasonable and intelligent. The Republicans got to sound like whiners, complaining about various pet peeves and chewing over their old laundry list of tax cuts and opposition.

CNN quickly compared it to weekly question time in the House of Commons – and Twitter is seeing an avalanche of comments calling for this to be a regular event. Not if the Republicans have any say in the matter – MSNBC's Luke Russert tweets: "GOP aides telling me it was a mistake to allow cameras into Obama's QA with GOP members. Allowed BO to refute GOP for 1.5 hours on TV" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/jan/29/barack-obama-republicans

March 29, 2011 at 5:20 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Oh my Sea Monkey, you have evolved to the mature act of name calling, how amusing my glib friend. A couple of facts, and I know you have trouble with those, but anyway here we go. I never said, “it’s not christ-like to be a conservative and defend,” oh and by the way, you should pay proper reverence to Christ by capitalizing his name. What I said was, it is not very Christian of you to spew hate, bigotry, and impose your judgement on everyone. Of course you are probably a typical hypocrite like most of heroes such as Rush “Doctor Shopping” Limbaugh, or Newt “Two Timing” Gingrich, or Sarah “Six Colleges” Palin. I bet it makes you cringe everyday that you awaken and know that your prejudiced, uneducated, immature living at home with your parents, fake wanna-be Christian self is being governed by a black man. In the words of the old Alanis Morrisette song, “Isn’t it ironic.” Incidentally Sea Monkey, I don’t recall every discussing abortion with on this forum with you. I will tell my view though. I support abortion in only one case. Your parents missed a hell of an opportunity. Hoping the village finds its lost idiot, Tmbrwlfofga.

March 29, 2011 at 5:33 p.m.
fairmon said...

AndrewL,

I agree but it would shine a light on those that prefer to be in the dark. Impose a tax to pay for whatever spending is planned. I have said we should all be assessed to pay for the war. I would think the number of hawks saying blow up another multi-million dollar bomb would be much less. An itemized tax statement would be good. Report your income and receive an itemized invoice for taxes.

No deductions, reductions or other manipulation, I like it. I guess something would have to be added for debt reduction. I think anyone operating the way the government does would be in jail with Madoff.

March 29, 2011 at 5:46 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp wrote;

"I wasn't attempting to quote anyone in particular and certainly not someone in a time that can't compare to where we are. I had heard those words and they do mean something. "If not now when? and if not us who"?"

--- The "saying" WAS from someone in particular and, yes, they DO mean something (but please, go back and read the proper quote!); Hillel meant those words to speak to the issues of compassion and responsibility, both toward oneself and toward others. His concern for the poor was well-known. These are concepts that are just as relevant in our time as in Hillel's. He would roll over in his grave to hear his words used to question whether we should be spending funds to provide for the needy.

"Are you personally willing to report every dollar of income and pay a higher rate if those with higher incomes take an even bigger hit?"

--- Jeesh, harp, I've never considered hiding income and not paying my fair share! And, yes, I am one of those that routinely votes for my taxes to be increased if I feel that the request is for a worthwhile program.

"Placing blame such as some do on the other party or on the wars doesn't cut it..."

--- Really? We spend more on defense than the next 15 highest-spending countries COMBINED! Don't tell me that cutting these trillions wouldn't make a difference in our budget.

As for the rest of your post, I agree with most of it... Except.......

"If deemed necessary and preferred also take care of those dregs on society that won't work when they could and won't seek an education when provided..."

--- My god, harp! Are you one of those PINKO BED-WETTING COMMUNISTS ?!!! ;-)

March 29, 2011 at 6 p.m.
canarysong said...

FrancisMonkey wrote (regarding Obama);

"there's no record of anything of worth he wrote...or of his grades...."

Monkey, I'm afraid that you are showing your ignorance. I repeat... Obama graduated HARVARD LAW SCHOOL MAGNA CUM LAUDE (that means VERY HIGH GRADES)! And, by the way, being president of the Harvard Law Review is a highly coveted ACADEMIC (and leadership) honor. Just what is it about that that you do not understand? Or do you think that the President of the United States is under some obligation to provide you, Monkey, with his undergraduate and law school transcripts for your personal inspection? LOL

BTW; just how do you see his background in constitutional law as being irrelevant to his office as president? Granted, it's not quite as cool as being able to see Russia from your house, but still......

March 29, 2011 at 6:34 p.m.
canarysong said...

One more thing.....

Obama's qualifications (when he ran for office) were very similar to those of JFK and Roosevelt when they ran for the presidency.

March 29, 2011 at 7:01 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

given obama's performance...he proves that a lifelong academician makes a fine socialist..but not a good manager of any kind..or a leader.

canarybrain....titles, at least in obama's case...are pretty much worthless.... yeah..i'm really impressed. a left leaning socialist getting awarded titles by left leaning institution......it's kind of like obama winning the nobel peace prize.....worthless..a lefty organization giving a lefty a prize....whoa...blow me away.......if you think good grades are given with no politics involved..you're naive.

the fact is...obama couldn't carry john kennedy's socks..or condalezza rice's high heels..i don't see anything in obama to indicate to me that he's intelligent at all...nothing in his news confer- ences..nothing in interviews, nothing in his policies, nothing.....when he reads from a teleprompter he can fool people like you....but not me...

ronald reagan could run rings around obama... obama learned the art of sounding smart..and is a lefty college professors dream....

ronald reagan was as geniune as obama is phony.

i would take a ceo of large company or a small company over obama any day...

obama has virtually no real life practical experience.

you can tell...because he spends money like it's monopoly money.......he was raised by anti- americans...family and f riends...he was sheltered in academia and mentored by a corrupt political machine......and lets not forget jermiah wright..

oh, that's right ..it shouldn't matter that he attended his church for 20 years....and the community organizer thing...what a front...

yeah, he had a real impact. he needed that on his "resume"..otherwise it would be all school......and of course..he was a lawyer for acron....brilliant..

regarding the harvard law review..funny how there's nothing to show for that ..what did he write?....huh?......regarding his transcripts... bush realeased his...as do most people..

but not him....same with his birth certificate...

"constitutional law"....please....he has no respect for it.....i heard an interview from a chicago radio station in the early 90's in which he said that our constitution is too much about what the govern- ment can't do.......what an ass.....

he's a dud....his speech last night seals it.

March 29, 2011 at 8:29 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

You drive me crazy. The old geezer can roll over in his grave I am not quoting him and I could care less what he said at that point in time. I am not questioning if we should feed the darn hungry or care for the ill. I am saying by all means we must do so but STOP borrowing money to do it, we have the ability and should pay as we spend.

Change the words to who and when are we going to pay the debt our incompetent government has accumulated? I didn't say war was OK or that the spending on military wasn't excessive. I know it could and should be reduced but that isn't happening. Let me try again, blaming others including the war doesn't change anything and does not keep the debt from increasing unless we pay as we spend it. If you want your social programs and care for ill etc. then you have to be willing to support the agenda of others as well which may be the military. You can't be like a mother saying my baby is pretty and your baby is ugly, my pretty baby should be provided for but not your ugly baby.

It is as simple as this. Be as liberal as the most liberal among us wants to be but also require that we all chip in and pay as we go without borrowing money to do it.

How does my willing to support and provide for those that won't do for themselves when they can if it takes that to get us to pay for things at the same rate we spend make me a pinko communist? Are you saying there are no people like that? I am only saying I will chip in to take care of them also if it takes that to get us to do what we must to avoid destroying our country and denying future generations a reasonable opportunity for a decent life.

I am beginning to think you are like V.P. Chaney when he said "the debt doesn't really matter". You know something, selfishness has many disguises and comes in various forms.

March 29, 2011 at 8:33 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

obama is no franklin roosevelt or john kennedy.

obama knows hoops and how to get his way by any means possible...and thats about it.. oh , yeah..he takes a mean vacation..

obama is the poster child for the dumbing down of our colleges and universities.....they're not what they used to be..

the only thing obama is known for his days as an illinois state senator and, breifly, a u.s. senator is missing votes and backing the most brutal form of late term abortion.....what a creep..

March 29, 2011 at 8:39 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Yet another thread with (seafrancis) monkey flinging poo all over it. This is amusing, but hardly conducive to intelligent conversation.

March 29, 2011 at 9 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

just because you get all hot an bothered when obama opens his mouth, canarybrain, doesn't mean we all do......

he's completely unimpressive.....he's a demagogue..

we have a friend who came here from romania.. she lived under the old commnist regime there.. "he's a demagogue"...her first impression of him. she'd seen it before.

i think her experience carries more weight than your groupie-like infatuation with obama... a lot more weight..

get real.

March 29, 2011 at 9:07 p.m.
dude_abides said...

"obama knows hoops and how to get his way by any means possible...and thats about it.." -Steamonkey

You forgot watermelon you racist pig. Thankfully, you are a dying breed. Soon, all of your ilk can sit with George and Lester and Jesse in the "whites only" section of hell, you boorish remnant of a diseased, paranoid past. You're no different than the frustrated Talib who can't figure out why he lives in squalor despite his obvious superiority to the western man. By the way, your misquote of Malcolm X should read "by any means necessary." I guess this is another of the racist comments you've never made. He's the leader of the free world, Francois, and though they may be afraid to show it in front of you, your family and friends would be thrilled if they had a chance to meet him in person. They would talk about it for the rest of their lives. It would outshine any memory your podunk ass could provide.

March 29, 2011 at 10:15 p.m.
limric said...

My family has friends too. So there! Quite a few actually. From Communist Eastern Europe. Hungary and the Ukraine to be exact, (one was a Mig 21 pilot) and they all find Obama a reasonable, refreshing and less frightening person than the crooks and war criminals preceding him. They have higher regard for him that I. We also have some friends from Lebanon and Egypt. Believe me – they know crooks and war criminals. I think their experience carries more weight than your BS politburo cronies.

As usual, a rabid dog at the base of a tree, standing on his hind quarters barking at falling leaves.

March 29, 2011 at 10:16 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp,

I think you misunderstood me, let's see if we can figure this out.....

You didn't seem to notice that I said that I agreed with much of your post. I like your idea of 'pay as you go', however, I'm not an economist (or anything close) and am not equipped to comment on such matters in detail.

"If you want your social programs and care for ill etc. then you have to be willing to support the agenda of others as well which may be the military."

--- While I may not be an economist, it doesn't take a financial genius to figure out that we can't afford everything, so we must prioritize. And, I'm sorry, but spending 15 times what the next highest-spending countries spend on defense COMBINED while we cut programs like the one that provides nutritional supplements for low birth weight babies is NOT OK! What on earth have we come to, that anyone can justify this?

"How does my willing to support and provide for those that won't do for themselves when they can if it takes that to get us to pay for things at the same rate we spend make me a pinko communist?"

--- Harp........ That was a JOKE. I was channeling my inner SeaMonkey ;-)

"Are you saying there are no people like that? I am only saying I will chip in to take care of them also if it takes that..."

--- I'm sure that there are some people like that; and you apparently are more generous than I am, because I am NOT willing to pay for those who simply choose not to work. I want them rooted out of the system.

"I am beginning to think you are like V.P. Chaney when he said "the debt doesn't really matter"."

--- I have never said that the debt doesn't matter, I simply feel that cuts are not being made in the right places.

"You know something, selfishness has many disguises and comes in various forms."

--- If you directed this at me, I have not said or done anything to deserve it and it is very hurtful and low of you.

"The old geezer can roll over in his grave I am not quoting him and I could care less what he said at that point in time..."

--- OK, I had to save this one for last.... Rabbi Hillel is one of the most revered figures in Judaism. I would never call one of the twelve disciples of Jesus an "old geezer" or anything equally disrespectful, and if I did a dozen people here would rake me over the coals for it. While I'm not religious, I still find your remark offensive. Rabbi Hillel was a remarkable person and his teachings have inspired hundreds of generations of people.

March 29, 2011 at 10:35 p.m.
canarysong said...

And now for you, Moron, oops, I mean Monkey;

"we have a friend who came here from romania.. she lived under the old commnist regime there.. "he's a demagogue"...her first impression of him. she'd seen it before.

i think her experience carries more weight than your groupie-like infatuation with obama... a lot more weight..

get real."

--- OK, I'll get real; you're an idiot.

I was born in a communist country and my mother risked her and our lives to get us out. Don't talk to me about communist regimes, demagogues, or anything else that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about. You don't have a clue!

As for my Obama 'infatuation', I think that is called respect and giving someone a fair chance. Furthermore, I HAVE voiced some criticism about some of his decisions. Oh, you wouldn't have noticed, you're too busy listening to yourself rant.

March 29, 2011 at 10:53 p.m.

Harp's version of the quote is the one used by several 20th century U.S. politicians, including Ronald Reagan. The public's reply was: Leave me alone, I'm playing Nintendo.

March 29, 2011 at 11:25 p.m.
canarysong said...

wwwtw;

A misquote is still a misquote even if several people repeat it.

"The public's reply was: Leave me alone, I'm playing Nintendo."

--- You know, I appreciate how clever you sometimes are..... I suppose I should tell you that more often, but it seems that we are usually getting on each others nerves....

March 29, 2011 at 11:37 p.m.

Thanks. And thanks for the info on Hillel. I had forgotten about him. People have drawn parallels between him and rabbi Jesus.

Also, the apostle Paul studied under Hillel's grandson, Gamaliel. Those guys stood out like a sore thumb in the Roman world of the first century because of their compassion.

I don't think the American politicians were necessarily quoting Hillel as much as they were borrowing a clever phrase. (The first part of the more recent quote doesn't seem to correspond as much with Hillel as the second part.) Mitt Romney's dad (former Michigan governor) used it, as did Obama, and (allegedly) JFK and Bobby Kennedy.

March 29, 2011 at 11:59 p.m.
fairmon said...

wwwtwm

Thanks. You are right Reagan was one and there have been others in writing and speeches. I have no doubt Hillel was a fine and generous man but I did not intend to quote him. I certainly didn't intend as canarysong indicated cause him or Beethoven to roll over in their grave. Some do emulate him and ironically we are on a path similar to that of the Roman Empire.

March 30, 2011 at 12:24 a.m.

Harp, Canary, from my reading it appears both of you missunderstood each other. Your ideas are much the same. It's sad to see you'all bickering over a missunderstanding. You both have wonderful posts tonight.

March 30, 2011 at 12:37 a.m.

Also, I don't think monkey's Obama/Hoops quote was racist. It has been said he installed a goal at the WH and plays everyday. Thats more than I work. He just loves the game. Heck, Larry Bird does too.

March 30, 2011 at 12:40 a.m.
canarysong said...

brainerdrebels67;

Thanks. Don't worry, I think that we both kind of enjoy the respectful (usually) "bickering". Tonight, however, some feelings may have been hurt through misunderstanding. But you are right, harp and I agree more on the really important things (key values) than we often realize.

March 30, 2011 at 12:49 a.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

Selfish is the last thing I would call you. I was only agreeing with you and pointing out others would not give up their special interest then support yours.

The first move would have to be to tax all of us at whatever level necessary to support every spending proposal in the budget and "off book" spending. Only then will people begin to realize priorities setting is not just rhetoric but necessary. Yes, we can afford everything we just need to be willing to pay for it. The pain of that will bring more sanity than all the BS going on in D.C. presently.

You know there are a number of war hawks and many people depend on the industrial military complex for a job. Your saying we have to prioritize and that cost too much sounds like you may be willing to say your baby is pretty and deserves more than their ugly baby.

You obviously revere the Rabbi and out of respect for that and with nothing to be gained by commenting I will withhold any further comment. I will say your president has charisma, is a good speaker, a polished politician, works hard, he is apparently well educated but an economic idiot. Unfortunately I haven't identified a good replacement that would seek or accept the job.

March 30, 2011 at 12:56 a.m.
canarysong said...

Harp,

"Unfortunately I haven't identified a good replacement that would seek or accept the job."

Unfortunately, neither have I.

Sigh.......

March 30, 2011 at 1:40 a.m.
rolando said...

"Unfortunately I haven't identified a good replacement that would seek or accept the job."

The 'good replacements' in politics no longer exist...and would not be elected if they did. 'Bread and circuses' would stop it. The electorate are too busy 'playing Nintendo'.

So we end up with those of W's and Dear Leader's ilk.

March 30, 2011 at 6:04 a.m.
ITguy said...

Since Canarysong brought up the wisdom of the Jewish Rabbis, let's all open our Bibles to Genesis 41 verses 23-32. In case you don't remember the story, this is where Joseph interprets Pharaoh's dream of the 7 fat cows and 7 lean cows. The 7 fat cows represent 7 years of good harvest and the 7 lean cows represent 7 years of drought. Now before you turn me off, let me explain why this is relevant.

It seems that the Government of Egypt realized 3000 years ago that there would be good times and bad times. The responsible thing to do is to save for a rainy day. However, you may remember that when GW was running against Al Gore, he argued that the tax cuts were needed because the government was running a surplus. He later argued that tax cuts were needed to stimulate the economy.

We should have never have enacted the Bush tax cuts and they should never have been extended. We should have continued to pay down the debt and then save for a rainy day.

It has been said that "if the only tool that you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail". The only tool that the Republican party has is Tax Cuts. They live with the mistaken belief that Tax Cuts stimulate the economy and the Free Market is the solution to all our ills.

Tax Cuts do not stimulate the economy. We have never had tax cuts with offsetting spending cuts. During both Reagan and Bush we had tax cuts and increased spending. Deficit spending stimulates the economy.

What we need is a tax policy that makes sense. The Corporate rate of 35% does nothing but kill small business. The major corporations can hire tax accountants and move their headquarters to avoid paying anything. The small businesses cannot afford those loopholes. As Harp suggested (BTW I totally agreed with your first post of the day) we should drop the corporate rate. I would favor eliminating it altogether. At the same time, we should up the individual rate to offset the difference. We have the lowest individual tax rates in over 50 years, and we and drowning in debt. This tax cut to stimulate the economy policy is clearly not working.

We should index capital gains by the inflation rate and tax the difference as ordinary income. It makes no sense for Traders on Wall Street to make millions and be taxed at 15%. Capital gains on investments held less than a year should be taxed at 50%. This would encourage investment as opposed to Trading.

We should phase out the deduction for the interest on home loans. Why should the taxpayers subsidize million dollar homes?

I have more, but no one is listening anyway.

March 30, 2011 at 8:03 a.m.
limric said...

I was listening ITguy. You make much sense and your post is full truths. I will look for your wisdom and listen again.

March 30, 2011 at 11:12 a.m.
canarysong said...

ITguy;

Please continue..... we're listening.

When I'm faced with econ talk and too many numbers, my eyes glaze over and my head begins to hurt, but you made it understandable and nearly painless. :-) I hope that you offer your insights more often.

March 30, 2011 at 11:52 a.m.
fairmon said...

ITguy,

I am listening and applauding. Ever consider running for office. It could be risky people aren't ready for common sense and that kind of repsonsible stewardship of tax money. When I promote dropping the corporate rate to less than 15% or to zero I would also abolish all the tools of manipulation politicians use such as deductions, reductions, incentives, subsidies etc. etc. I see no justification for any personal deductions such as interest on a home loan where we all help someone buy a house. I really got taken, I rented, worked and saved and paid cash.

People that have a gain trading stocks pay taxes on their short term gains as ordinary income. It is the hedge fund managers that make millions that only pay 15% which is rediculous. First, one million is required to be a client of a hedge fund, the manager gets 20% of that then 20% of the profits on which, I think this is correct, he pays only 15% income tax. There is nothing right or fair about that.

I agree the tax rates should never have been reduced by Bush and should have expired as scheduled for everyone and possibly indexed higher for the mega wealthy. His tax reduction logic was about as valid as his WMD reason for starting a war, that was wrong then is was regime change followed by nation building.

The impossible task is to let congress have a few extra dollars and not spend it on pork, an ear mark or a vote getting program. That is why I support pay as you go legislation that requires setting the tax rates at whatever it takes to do that and reduce the debt by 2% of the revenue. Sooner or late we will have to take the pain, why not now instead of when it is more painful.

March 30, 2011 at 5:28 p.m.
fairmon said...

brainerdrebels67,

Thanks. I hope I haven't hurt canarysongs feelings. I think she can tell I really like her and love to debate or bicker with her. I wish we were neighbors so we could really have at it then hug, laugh about it and go home. We do often agree on the objectives but seldom on the process. We both know we won't change a thing in D.C. but can air our opinion and vent frustrations here. I think we have both given each other reason to think about things and the possibility the other may have a point.lol, well almost anyway. If only she would agree with me we could quit bickering at each other like we were married.

Remember: I hope this isn't offensive but remember: Man who gives wife hell all day will get no piece that night.

March 30, 2011 at 5:39 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp,

HA... Ha.... ha.......

My feelings WERE hurt when I thought that you called me selfish. I'm glad that I just misunderstood. I do enjoy our debates, and yes, you give me things to think about - I like that.

But if we were neighbors you would be knocking on my door at 2 am demanding to know if I would be willing to have my tax rate increased by 3.4% to cover the social programs that I want to have passed in the next election (pay as we go!). I'd never get any sleep! .....and my head would hurt from all the numbers..... :-)

March 30, 2011 at 6:50 p.m.
RufusTFirefly said...

What can you say about Republican­s that hasn't already been said?

Not much.

But the really sad thing is that some Americans still support Republican­s!

Oh! Well, history is chocked full sad stories about human "misguided­ness".

[http://www­.site.stan­leyyelnats­.com/][1]

[1]: What can you say about Republican­s that hasn't already been said? Not much. But the really sad thing is that some Americans still support Republican­s! Oh! Well, history is chocked full sad stories about human "misguided­ness". http://www­.site.stan­leyyelnats­.com/

March 30, 2011 at 8:40 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong

We would limit our time spent debating to no more than congress spends actually working. That would limit us to very few subjects and time interacting. Their media camera and press interview time is not working, that is campaigning....which side of the aisle will I occupy? I don't see a center section, oh me these feelings of rejection are so painful.

Good night, I will not say anything to disturb your sleep tonight but no promises about tomorrow.

March 30, 2011 at 10:42 p.m.
fairmon said...

mymy,

The article supports my position that all business deductions, reductions, incentives, subsidies, grants and other tax avoidance tools the government provides should be abolished and a fixed rate of 15-20% of profits set for every business. I agree Immelt should not be on the panel but for different reasons. He is not a good manager and I don't think he can articulate what is needed to improve profits in the U.S. and the competitive position of U.S. businesses and more jobs for Americans. I think he may promote more manipulation of the system not less. Most politicians are not willing to give up their power to manipulate and show favor. The article says profits are "shifted" over seas which is not correct they are earned over seas and taxes are not paid until that money is returned to the U.S. (repatriated). The reported amount for all U.S. based over seas profits that is not returned to avoid paying U.S. taxes is over 1.2 trillion. Congress has no power over over seas operations. The proposal to allow those with over seas profits to pay 5% taxes and return them in total to invest in the U.S. was rejected. I don't know why other than the potential political backlash from voters.

March 31, 2011 at 8:55 a.m.
mymy said...

Bottom line things are in a heck of a mess in this country and there is plenty of blame to go around. Our government is broke and it did not start yesterday or a decade ago. God help us.

March 31, 2011 at 10:39 a.m.
fairmon said...

mymy,

It probably started with the campaign slogan in the late 20's or early 30's. "A chicken in every pot and a car in every yard". I don't recall who said it or which party used it. They did win as similar and larger promises have since.

March 31, 2011 at 2:47 p.m.
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