published Wednesday, August 28th, 2013

Bible unclear on homosexuality — and more letters to the editors

Bible unclear on homosexuality

Obedience to the divine will is perfect freedom, but believing all those who presume to expound it is idiocy. The Church of Christ minister says the Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality, but actually this is quite unclear. The gospels record no authoritative preaching on the subject. Saint Paul, the most opinionated figure in all of church history, may have expressed an opinion.

What is clear is that it is easier to use opaque and obscure scriptural passages as weapons against others than to do the hard work of ascertaining their true meaning and their value as moral teaching. For this reason, self-righteousness is always more common than informed consideration.

It is heartbreaking that Detective Kat Cooper and her family have had to leave the church they have so obviously loved for many years. I hope they will soon find peace and welcome in a congregation in which the practice of Christianity is pursued, in which only the sinless are permitted to cast stones, in which the judgmental are admonished to remember the Judgment, and where it is recognized that we must sometimes shake the dust of a town from our feet.

BARBARA S. ARTHUR


Cook, Sohn taken to task

Contrary to David Cook's head spinning histrionics, the church is not stealing Jesus; homophiles are possessing the church. Like Cook, I see broken hearts: Christians painfully watching Matt Nevels perversely endorse the lifestyle that broke his son's heart and body, and David Cook express frustration that the church's leavening with sexual sin comes too slowly for the Coopers.

Jesus preached repentance, not acceptance, for forgiveness of sins. And in Corinthians I: 5, Paul orders excommunication "so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." Church discipline breaks the old heart to make the new, and Christianity is righteously loving, not necessarily nice.

The alternative interpretations of the Bible Cook mentions sound intellectually superior, but they are a historical pseudo-scholarship ignoring Judeo-Christian tradition. And why isn't the biblical picking and choosing Pam Sohn mentions compelling? Because even a piece mealed Biblical worldview beats the dystopia of government debt, sexual sin, broken marriages, drug addiction, and murdered infants she promotes.

Although David Cook identifies with Huck Finn, he is Tom Sawyer, enslaving the Jims of this world in same-sex attraction when, for the love of Christ, we could be exorcising people from it altogether.

DR. BRIAN HALE, Ph.D, Red Bank


Church invites Coopers to attend

Linda and Kurt Cooper, a couple forced by their church to choose between supporting their daughter and their church, are welcome to worship at Second Presbyterian Church in downtown Chattanooga. To the Coopers: We could consider your presence a distinct honor and privilege. Our church family is humbled by he undeserved grace we receive every day from the living God. Therefore, we take seriously our privilege and responsibility to warmly welcome anyone and everyone through the doors of our church. God bless you and keep you!

DR. PERRY C. McCALLEN, senior minister, Second Presbyterian Church

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conservative said...

Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR made many statements that were untrue.

Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR wrote: "The Church of Christ minister says the Bible is clear in its condemnation of homosexuality, but actually this is quite unclear."

Well "actually" the Bible is clear:

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."NAS

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"NAS

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."NAS

August 28, 2013 at 6:47 a.m.
jen1972 said...

Well, CONSERVATIVE, the Bible is "actually" clear on a lot of things.

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both he and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

And yet, somehow people are not being asked to leave the church for either committing these offenses, or loving someone who does.

YOU OBVIOUSLY CHERRY PICK THE PASSAGES THAT YOU LIKE TO JUSTIFY YOUR HATRED.

NEWSFLASH- if your God hates all of the same people that you do, you have created HIM in YOUR image, not the other way around.

Conserve that, you hateful bigot.

August 28, 2013 at 7:45 a.m.
conservative said...

Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR made many statements that were untrue.

Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR's next untrue statement: "The gospels record no authoritative preaching on the subject"

Liberals try to narrowly define Biblical arguments in hopes they can fool the ignorant. Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR then goes from the Bible being "unclear" to "no authoritative preaching on the subject" in the gospels.

Do you get that? Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR thinks she has found one specific area in the Bible that doesn't address homosexuality in the hope that she can get the ignorant and gullible to believe condemnation of homosexuality doesn't exist or doesn't apply because she thinks there are no teachings on the subject in the gospels.

Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR failed, stay tuned.

August 28, 2013 at 7:55 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

My Lord, God, and, Saviour, Jesus Christ of Nazareth Said, "A New Commandment I Give Unto You, That Ye Love One Another; As I Have Loved You, That Ye Also Love One Another. [35] By This Shall All Men Know That Ye Are My Disciples, If Ye Have Love One to Another." Saint John 13:34-35 We Are Commanded, and, Should Love Homosexual Individuals With The True Love of Jesus Christ.

ROMANS 1:22- "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,..."

Ken ORR

August 28, 2013 at 8:07 a.m.
MyGen said...

Ms. Arthur has not read the same Bible that I read. I suppose she either "worships" with people who reject the truth or has made the decision to do that all by herself.

That broad way is well travelled, but the narrow way is not.

August 28, 2013 at 8:15 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

So the content of jen1972's post is not accurate? In what way?

August 28, 2013 at 8:17 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Many innocent folks do not know about dispensations within Jesus Christ's plans for humankind. This is no shame, and, certainly not a 'put down' to people who have not yet learned of dispensations. One of the cardinal laws for logical interpretation of Biblical Scripture is: Whatever is stated in the Old Testament must be verified by a reiterating of that admonition, etc, in the New Testament. If there is no reiterating, then, the admonition belongs to another dispensation and is not applicable to the New Testament. Many innocent people attempt to prove that a New Testament admonition is not logical because we don't use the same punishments today when that admonition is transgressed. That just does not work +(:>. That is akin to trying to punish an infant for disturbing the peace the same way an adult can go to jail for disturbing the peace. The Old Testament Law was a 'school master' for bringing in the New Testament.

Please do a study of the various dispensations within the plan of Jesus Christ for humanity. Having done this Your comments will be powerful and applicable...kwo

August 28, 2013 at 8:20 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Is the word dispensations in the bible? Where is it described that only some of the requirements stated in the OT are still valid?

I'll let you all duke it out. Gotta be offline most of the day.

August 28, 2013 at 8:23 a.m.
TheCommander said...

DR. PERRY C. McCALLEN, The Presbyterian denomination departed from the Word of God decades ago. That is why great teachers of yours such as Dr. J Vernon McGee openly said that he "did not leave his denomination - it left me".

What if this former Church of Christ couple started teaching Presbyterians that water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation? This comes into direct opposition of the Westminster Confession, does it not? What if they insist you remove musical instruments form your worship? There is much that differs between the two denominations. How do you just throw a bunch of people together in a common fellowship who do not agree? You sound very pious in your invitation to any and all, but a flock like this can only be led if its only doctrine is openness and religious pluralism. Openness and pluralism are the doctrines of fundamental liberalism. In this, you are way more rigid and intolerant than conservatives can ever be. No one is welcome if they are not strictly pluralistic in their thinking.

August 28, 2013 at 8:34 a.m.
conservative said...

commander,

Maybe Ike was/is a member of this church. She a professing atheist told me she was a member of a "church" along with other Atheists, homosexuals,Buddhists and they considered themselves Christians and they even heard the gospel preached there.

I have a strong feeling that it was not the gospel I am familiar with.

August 28, 2013 at 8:51 a.m.
jen1972 said...

That's because you have cherry picked the gospel to meet your own ends, Conservative.

August 28, 2013 at 9:04 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

While people argue over bible verses as if somehow the bible is believable, I completely reject the bible as anything other than poorly written fiction.

For a supposed book of comfort, peace, compassion, and love, I find it's anything but.

There's no evidence for any gods, saviors, or devils. No evidence that the BIble is anything but man created. No evidence that every story in the BIble wasn't a mish-mash of other creation myths and campfire stories from tribes long before the Israelites.

One could learn more morality from reading Huck Finn, Aesop's Fables, and ancient Greek and Roman philosophies than all the hate, murder, and bigotry found in the Bible and the majority of the minds of today's fundamentalists.

It's like arguing whether or not Humpty-Dumpty wore glasses, Bugs Bunny preferred long, thin carrots over short, wide ones, and the Easter Bunny lays eggs or steals them from a farmer.

What utter nonsense. What complete foolishness.You remind me of Trekkies arguing over who the best Star Trek captain was except Trekkies don't try to make non-believers lives miserable for not believing, force others to worship their captain, and demand your uniform match theirs.

No wonder people leave churches. It's not "sin" that drives people away. It's the constant BS of fundamentalist dogmatism.

Who needs a god that is so petty, inconsistent, small-minded, and proclaims His murders are justified, and whose followers are just as their god?

Is there some divinity somewhere? There may be, but it s certainly not one of the thousands of gods created on earth -- not Ra, Ba'al, nor Jehovah.

Keep your superstitions, ignorance, and pettiness. Keep your warped and criminal psychotic deities. Keep your books of fairy-tales and myths you believe are true. Keep arguing, damning everyone else to hell.

You're really sad, fearful, cowering mental midgets, unable to see the beauty and wonders of the universe, preferring to hide in your cellars of darkness, afraid of light.

Carry on! I always can use another laugh.

August 28, 2013 at 9:07 a.m.
conservative said...

Continuing with Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR's untrue statements.

"The gospels record no authoritative preaching on the subject"

Even if that statement were true it would not render void the many condemnations of homosexuality in the Bible, the word of God. That is very important to remember.

The greatest preacher of all time was Jesus Christ. He was God incarnate, He was infallible and was of course authoritative.

Where did Jesus preach about homosexuality?

"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications (Greek, porneiva), thefts, false witness, blasphemies" Matthew 15:19

Fornications is from the Greek porneiva. It was a word which included ALL sex outside of marriage such as adultery, sex of the unmarried, sex with animals, sex with a sibling/parent, and of course homosexuality.

August 28, 2013 at 9:10 a.m.
TheCommander said...

Conservative, I suspect it is another Gospel as well. If the true Gospel was preached, that crowd would disperse on its own. because it is truly intolerant at its core.

August 28, 2013 at 9:38 a.m.
conservative said...

Continuing with Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR's untrue statements.

On the issue of homosexuality being condemned in the Bible Ms. BARBARA S. ARTHUR states - "Saint Paul the most opinionated figure in all of church history, may have expressed an opinion"

The writings of the Apostle Paul were not his opinion, they are Scripture because God inspired them.

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2Timothy3:16-17

One God inspired book, thus Scripture, by Paul, was 1 Corinthians and this passage addresses Homosexuality:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God 1Corinthians6:9-11NAS

Homosexuals "clearly" will not inherit the kingdom of God!!!

August 28, 2013 at 10:14 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Conservative, you are not gay; there is absolutely nothing about you that is in the least bit happy.

However, without a doubt, you are the queerist little madman on this forum.

August 28, 2013 at 10:17 a.m.
TheCommander said...

I must correct one thing I said earlier about the Presbyterian Church. Though much of the church has gone into liberalism along with other denominations, there are still some fine people that hold to its teachings. I should not have been so universal in my statement. However, I do not understand how they stay in those churches, but they are there.

August 28, 2013 at 10:24 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Also, Jesus Christ through The Apostle Paul declared:

ROMANS 1:22- "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,..."

August 28, 2013 at 10:53 a.m.
conservative said...

"What is clear is that it is easier to use opaque and obscure scriptural passages as weapons against others than to do the hard work of ascertaining their true meaning and their value as moral teaching. For this reason, self-righteousness is always more common than informed consideration."

Well, it is certainly "clear" here that Ms.BARBARA S. ARTHUR is "opaque."

August 28, 2013 at 10:58 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

Thumper Orr is really into that "dispensation" BS. He talks about it repeatedly. So-called dispensations are one of the many ways that Bible scholars and apologists go to elaborate lengths to make sense out of complete nonsense. They have studied the Bible enough to know that it is unable to stand on its own as an historical work and that it makes no sense whatsoever scientifically. So in order to justify the MANY absurdities, contradictions, and historical and scientific inaccuracies these "scholars" go to great lengths to explain the nonsense away with their convoluted and detailed theories. If God were intent on having as many people as possible obey his commands and follow him then why would he make it so difficult to understand that it takes a Bible scholar to decipher it? What a person should or should not do in order to enter God's heavenly kingdom and avoid eternal damnation ought to be pretty basic stuff - basic enough that even the simplest person could grasp it.

But even if dispensations were a logical explanation for the apparent changes in how God interacts with humankind based on any given time period, then it only reveals that God's laws are not absolute. They are entirely relative to the time and the people who were living at that time. Yet, Christians are always saying that their God is absolute, unchanging, and perfection personified. What a crock.

August 28, 2013 at 11:16 a.m.
amyinsparta said...

Well, actually, aren't Christians supposed to follow Jesus' precepts and forget about all the nonsense in the OT? Really, few so-called Christians ever quote Jesus on anything. Oh wait, Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality, abortion, or any other controversial thing. Wonder why? Oh, I think I know! Treat others the way YOU want to be treated. Love your fellowman as you love yourself. God is LOVE, and on and on. The point is, according to Jesus, ALL people are worthy under God and to exclude any person based on things that have NO bearing on their value as human beings is NOT following Jesus. What would you prefer as a friend-a homosexual that would give you the shirt off his back, or a fundamentalist who thinks no one is worthy unless he says they are? Me, I prefer the homosexual every time. There but for an accident of birth go each and every one of us. The very idea of treating people differently according to some outlandishly outmoded,hateful book is beyond comprehension.

August 28, 2013 at 1:35 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So, no scripture to support the idea of dispensations, Ken?

August 28, 2013 at 6:06 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

What Christian fundamentalists expect you to believe -No kidding!

"South Carolina School Known For Teaching Creationism, Blue Ridge Christian Academy, To Close" http://tinyurl.com/pdhww89

"A financially struggling South Carolina school that taught creationism announced its closure, after it failed to raise sufficient funding for the upcoming school year."

"The quiz included questions with some controversial answers. For example, one true and false question on the quiz was “The earth is billions of years old.” The school taught that the correct answer was “False.”

Another true and false question was “Dinosaurs lived with people.” The school taught that the correct answer was “True.”

Read the story. This is what Bible-Thumpers teach. This is just the beginning of Bible literalism and the buffoons who teach this. This is why creationism is beyond ignorant; it's dangerous.

But it is Ok to laugh at them, very often and very loudly, particularly in public where such ignorance is to be ridiculed. It's also correct to fight fundamentalism in public schools and government.

Christian fundamentalism --Gawd's plague in the 21st century.

August 28, 2013 at 8:02 p.m.
Hunter_Bluff said...

I remain alert for the explanation of why homosexuality warrants such energetic condemnation while the many other directives of the Old Testament are ignored. What am I missing - do tell.

August 28, 2013 at 8:12 p.m.
conservative said...

Simply because the TFP mostly and Liberals also, bring it up. There is always a push by the mess media for the homosexual agenda.

Probably within a few days there will be a homosexual centered story.

Notice the Church of Christ story and the letters above, they deal with homosexuals.

Notice the comments as well.

August 28, 2013 at 8:42 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Not to be outdone by fundamentalist stupidity, it's time for the Catholics to hit the charts with their own version of Dumb and Dumber with this headline.

"Catholic Church's Top Exorcist Claims He Rid World of 160,000 Demons"

http://tinyurl.com/ldudwvk

Hold on to your Areosmith hat as exorcism becomes more popular than Baptists at a liquor store.

Thie crys out for pay-for-view. How about a contest between the Faith-Healers of Pentecost versus the Holy Father's Tag Team for Altar Boys to see who can get rid of the most demons in a three-round match.

Make it a Texas-tornado death match, with barbed-wire around the ring and nuns as card girls. Throw in cheap concessions like grape juice and saltines, and you have a match that'll have the Holy Ghost flying in circles.

Who will win? The Catholics have the best outfits (though they can hide stuff in those flowing robes), but the Faith-healers have better toupees, jumbo-trons, and pinky rings.

I am amazed though that the Catholics can get rid of 160,000 demons but can't find pedophile priests. But demons don't bring in money so I guess that makes a difference.

What about it EPB or Comcast? This could be as popular as the television special of "Battle of the Comb-over" between Benny Hinn and Donald Trump.

I'll be rooting for the demons.

August 28, 2013 at 8:55 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said...

"Simply because the TFP mostly and Liberals also, bring it up. There is always a push by the mess media for the homosexual agenda.

Probably within a few days there will be a homosexual centered story."

Please have another homosexual story, TFP. Conservative sits at home in his closet, wearing his Mom's Sunday-go-to-meeting dress, researching his gay porn, while whipping himself with his sanctified Cat-O'-Nine-Tails (the Official Cat-O'-Nine-Tails approved by Mel Gibson), while thinking about the disciples in those long, luscious flowing robes and listening to the dulcet tones of Jimmy Swaggert singing, "He Has Risen."

Please TFP. Conservative needs gay talk to make his life worth living.

August 28, 2013 at 9:10 p.m.
TheCommander said...

Ike, on dispensations maybe I can help. That's what you want, right?

Romans 16:25,Colossians 1:25-26 Ephesians 3:9(I won't copy and paste verses because that seems to send certain people flying into a rage). They all speak of things that were hidden in "times past" but are now revealed. Paul speaks of a new "administration" or "Fellowship" depending on the translation. The Greek word used is where we get our word "economy" and is synonymous with the word dispensation. According to the Bible, we are in the church age. Many people on this thread don't like that, but according to the Bible that is His work in this present dispensation. God never changed though mankind will go through these "economies". I don't know why you think that contradicts with the idea that God never changes? The Bible lays out one plan, one program for this world that has these progressions, but the plan will not be altered. I hope that helps.

August 28, 2013 at 10:16 p.m.
TheCommander said...

amyinsparta said, "Well, actually, aren't Christians supposed to follow Jesus' precepts and forget about all the nonsense in the OT? Really, few so-called Christians ever quote Jesus on anything."

Amy, Jesus quoted from the OT HIMSELF constantly. He obviously didn't think it was a bunch of "nonsense", did He?

August 28, 2013 at 10:43 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So these "dispensations" selectively say that gays are still an abomination, but it's okay to eat shellfish, get a tattoo, and think that the earth is 8000 years old? I'm not sure I see it.

August 29, 2013 at 7:40 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

lkeithlu

Going way back in history, say to the Neolithic Period, we see that 'medical science' had a l-o-n-g way to go to reach beneficial. Folks totally believed in the medical benefits of trephining. Do You think (presumption that Jesus Christ IS) that Jesus knew that otherwise 'good folk' would utilize trephining? I do, because mankind has to develop and learn. Dispensations make it clear that we all will experience various episodes of the Book of Revelation.

"The motives for Neolithic trephining have been the subject of speculation since the first specimens were discovered in the nineteenth century. Generally, it is surmised that, on the living, it was performed for the escape or entrance of spirits. This, of course, is conjectural. It may have been done for therapeutic reasons, such as for headaches, fractures, infections, insanity, or for convulsions. It might have been done for religious reasons. It has been suggested that the motive was to acquire rondelles (the disks of bone obtained from the cutting of circular holes in the skulls). In this event, they would have been used for charms, amulets, or talismans." Credit: http://www.uic.edu/classes/osci/osci590/13_3%20Trephination%20An%20Ancient%20Surgery.htm

August 29, 2013 at 11:20 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your post, ken, seems completely irrelevant to the question at hand. You talk about "dispensations" but I don't see anything that specifically selects homosexuality out of Leviticus to keep, and ignores tattoos, shellfish, and a literal interpretation of genesis.

August 29, 2013 at 11:35 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Why did I interject The Book of Revelation in the above post? Well, the odds of all Biblical Prophecy' that has so far been fulfilled in such minute detail are 10 to the 20th power. (why do the other 'religions' not incorporate prophecy?).

"Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors." Credit: http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

All of what Jesus Christ has planned to do is known by Him. He gives us 'some' of this information. TREPHINATION SURGERY and BLOOD LETTING was, innocently enough what people understood then. But now, 'No Way to trephination'!

Dispensations can be thought of within the same vein of thinking. When mankind experiences 'shifts' in our thinking, etc., then The Lord God of Hosts knows we are ready for the next phase of His plans for us.

Why does Jesus Christ do it that way, using dispensations? I will tell You...i don't know.

Ken ORR

August 29, 2013 at 11:38 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Please read this carefully

One of the cardinal laws for logical/accurate/truthful interpretation of Biblical Scripture is: Whatever is stated in the Old Testament must be verified by a reiterating of that admonition, etc, in the New Testament. If there is no reiterating, then, the admonition belongs to another dispensation and is not applicable to the New Testament. Many innocent people attempt to prove that a New Testament admonition is not logical because we don't use the same punishments today when that admonition was first given and transgressed. That just does not work +(:>. That is akin to trying to punish an infant for disturbing the peace the same way an adult can go to jail for disturbing the peace. The Old Testament Law was a 'school master' for bringing in the New Testament.

August 29, 2013 at 11:46 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

An example of the above is that shellfish admonishments, and stoning of disobedient to parents children is not reiterated in the New Testament. Even the revered Sabbath is re-packaged by Jesus Christ when He says, man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man, and that He is the Sabbath into which we are to REST in Him every day. He has fulfilled all of the law of the Old Testament. The law of the Old Testament is fulfilled by Jesus Christ by it having been nailed to the Cross with Him!

August 29, 2013 at 11:54 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

HOMOSEXUALITY ADMONITIONS were carried over through ALL dispensations as evidenced by Old and New Testament Scriptures.

I wish You Peace through The Prince of Peace, Jesus!

August 29, 2013 at 11:59 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Orr wrote: "Well, the odds of all Biblical Prophecy' that has so far been fulfilled in such minute detail are 10 to the 20th power. (why do the other 'religions' not incorporate prophecy?). "

Biblical prophecy is BS, like fortune telling, psychics, and horoscopes. What a crock! The Bible has foretold nothing. Like a horoscope it's so general and non-specific to be rubbish.

Only the delusional, slow-witted, and gullible buy into such "prophecies" so it's easy to see why Orr does so.

Why doesn't the Bible foretell who'll win the 5th race at Belmont or when Oprah will find true love, or when the Tennessee Vols will have a winning season AND stay out of jail? Useful stuff like that.

See, the Bible is worth nothing for prophecies, nor has it ever been. Jehovah doesn't have crystal balls, not even a Magic 8-Ball.

But I have a prediction —a Word of Prophecy. Bible Thumpers will continue to spread BS as Divine Inspiration, an inerrant Bible as science, and talking serpents, walking dead, and burning bushes as facts, and that no amputees will ever grow limbs at a faith-healing circus.

That's a prophecy you can take to the bank.

August 29, 2013 at 12:36 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Hi daytonsdarwin

Did You go to the Hugh Ross Site? You truly just know more about stuff than he does. I don't assume, or, judge.

Ross was born in Montreal and raised in Vancouver, Canada. He earned a BSc in physics from the University of British Columbia and an MSc and PhD in astronomy from the University of Toronto; and he was a postdoctoral research fellow for five years at Caltech, studying quasars and galaxies. Ross was the youngest person ever to serve as director of observations for Vancouver’s branch of the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada,[6] and before starting Reasons To Believe, he was on the ministerial staff of Sierra Madre Congregational Church. In addition to apologetics writing, Ross speaks regularly in academic venues and churches, as well as regular podcasts "I Didn't Know That" (formerly Creation Update), and "Science News Flash." He spoke at the 2008 Skeptics Society' "Origins Conference" at California Institute of Technology alongside Nancey Murphy, Victor Stenger, and Leonard Susskind.[7] He has publicly debated both atheist scientists, including Jerry Coyne, Eugenie Scott, Victor Stenger, Peter Ward, and Lewis Wolpert, and young-earth creationist scientists, including Duane Gish, Ken Ham, Jason Lisle, and John Morris. In 2012 he won the Trotter Prize, delivering the Trotter Lecture at Texas A&M University on "Theistic Implications for Big Bang Cosmology."[8]...Wikipedia

Ken ORR

August 29, 2013 at 2:02 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Yes, I know of Hugh Ross. I am surprised you would site him as he has been castigated as a "Progressive Creationist" by regular ol' Creationists.

Seems to be liberal and conservative Creationists just like there are liberal and conservative Klansmen. Now it makes sense.

Christian Creationism — so clear even Jehovah doesn't know the answer.

August 29, 2013 at 2:21 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Given that the Bible proves so reliable a document, there is every reason to expect that the remaining 500 prophecies, those slated for the "time of the end," also will be fulfilled to the last letter. Who can afford to ignore these coming events, much less miss out on the immeasurable blessings offered to anyone and everyone who submits to the control of the Bible's author, Jesus Christ? Would a reasonable person take lightly God's warning of judgment for those who reject what they know to be true about Jesus Christ and the Bible, or who reject Jesus' claim on their lives?

*The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists.

Dr. Hugh Ross_ http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

August 29, 2013 at 5:03 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Who are these "secular" scientists? Another one of your continuing lies Orr?

As to the reliability of the Bible, that's absurd. Reliable about what? God is Jesus, Jesus is the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost is God, and the merry-go-round spins until the suckers believe the circular nonsense.

Here's the kicker. The Bible is true because God says so. God is true because the Bible says so. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are true because God says so because the Bible says so.

Yep, that all makes perfect sense. So let's see what Bible-Banging fundies must believe. Only one answer is correct. An incorrect answer sends you straight to hell.

So which is it? Young earth, old earth, literal Bible, interpreted Bible, 6 days of creation, 6 million years of creation, and the beat goes on.

For a crystal clear, unambiguous Bible, you sure do a lot of interpretive dancing.

It can't be both ways, Orr. That's not scientific. And you can't claim science for one part of the Bible, and metaphor for some of the other parts.

So either the Bible is completely right as you say it is, or you're completely wrong.

For a super-dooper Trinity or non-Trinity (depending on which fundamentalist is doing the interpretive dance) your Sky Daddy and Friends can't seem to get their story straight.

And if those guys (gals, pals, spirits or spooks) can't make up their three-in-one minds together, just how do you suppose you got it all down so pat?

Little wonder so much of Christian fundamentalism depends on apologetics. If I couldn't come up with a straight and believable story I'd be apologizing too!

Christian Creationism — Gawd's way of apologizing in advance for the stupid things fundamentalists will believe and say because the Bible says so. Confused? Just have faith!

August 29, 2013 at 5:30 p.m.
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